LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.12 (12) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 12.SEP.2004 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: language varieties

"Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:
I am only annoyed that Bede did not mention Fries,
& I am certain they were there somewhere. Did they
come from Angeln?

Pardon my ignorance, and ignore this message if
itmakes no sense, but isn't it so that Fries grew out
of a similar mixture of dialects as English, being
Saxon, Anglian and Jutish? Seems only logical then
that Bede didn't mention Fries.
regards,
Henry Pijffers"

Dear Henry & all,

I think you'll find that it is mentioned by some early
English writers that the Fries were one of the
distinctive groups that came over to England (although
I haven't got time at the moment to get you the
details).

cheers,
Glenn Simpson

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.09.12 (05) [E]

Frisian/Fries wasn't built up out of Saxon, Anglian and Jutish - although
it's probably quite closely related to these,
as it was to the other coastal Western Germanic dialects.
In the Netherlands, Frisian philologists usually state that Frisian and
English share the same origin, or even believe
that they are two branched of the same languages. But most of the
similarities between Fr and Engl are not that
old at all, and in fact Frisian is much more related to the other Dutch and
Lower Saxon dialects than it is to
modern English. The Frisian of the province of Friesland (Western Frisian or
Westlauwer Frisian) even seems
more closely related to Standard Dutch than many Lower Saxon dialects in the
Netherlands are!

Old Saxon of Northern Germany would look very Frisian in modern eyes, very
Ingvaeonic indeed, but not much of
that is to be found in modern Lower Saxon, which was very heavily
Franconized in the Middle Ages.
Furthermore, there is no proof of Jutes or Anglians in Friesland.
Historically Jutes, Anglians and an important part of the
Saxons dwelled in Southern Jutland (Denmark) and Schleswig-Holstein
(Northern Germany), the Frisians occupied
the coastal regions and along the Dutch North Sea and the Wadden Sea, as
well as some of its islands.

But, one should not forget that the old tribal names like Saxons, Frisians
or Franconians cannot automatically be linked
to dialects with the same names in present times. Think of Roman speaking
France < Franconia, Andalucia < Vandals,
Lombardia < Longobards, Bourgogne < Burgundians (< Bornholm) etc. in which
case the name has nothing to do with
the origin of the inhabitants and their languages of today anymore.
 Ingmar

> Pardon my ignorance, and ignore this message if it makes no sense, but
> isn't it so that Fries grew out of a similar mixture of dialects as
> English, being Saxon, Anglian and Jutish? Seems only logical then that
> Bede didn't mention Fries.
>
> regards,
> Henry Pijffers

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