LL-L "Language politics" 2004.09.16 (01) [A/E]

Thu Sep 16 18:56:20 UTC 2004

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2004.09.14 (07) [D/E]

John Feather wrote:
> Before we get into snide references to the UK use of "Continent" (the
> capital is important) the French also use "continent" for "mainland", as
> you'll find if you go to Corsica, of corse.
>
> Anyway there at least 1.5 continents, one of the biggest dialects being
> Sub-Continental English.
>
> I would hate to lose all those little nuances which betray a foreigner's
> origin.

This reminds me of the story of the Boston lady who visited San Francisco
and complained about the climate: "No wonder I'm not feeling well - we're
three thousand miles from the coast!"

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2004.09.14 (07) [D/E]

Hi all,
I am surprised that in all these recent discussions didn´t surface again the
suggestion someone made some time ago (at that time for the purpose of the
EU I think): To create a written lingua franca Chinese-style without
impacting in any way on the spoken languages.
Mike Wintzer

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2004.09.14 (07) [D/E]

At 08:41 PM 09/15/04 -0700, Ron wrote:

  That shut them up, because they thought I was a foreign
  tourist, and they won't make fun of them in public.  Prejudices are
  expressed publically only among Germans, especially once they've got a few
  beers under their belts.  This includes folks that swear up and down that
  they are not racist or otherwise bigoted.
I once walked into a conversation among three German expatriates, and one of
them was regaling the others about how, on his last trip to Germany, he made
fun of some Yeshiva students by speaking Yiddish with them and mocking them.
I joined in the laughter, then told them about the Jewish man I worked for
in Philadelphia who was chosen by his regiment to do the initial
interrogations of the guards and officials of a concentration camp they had
just liberated at the close of WWII, because he was the only one who spoke
German, and wasn't that a funny turn of events.  You should have seen the
looks on their faces.

Any way, Shanah Tovah .... va tikvosenu!  Vncovkt hvOu hnw

Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Canada

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2004.09.14 (06) [D/E/Esperanto]

Beste Roger,

Subject: LL-L Politics

Skryf gerus in Nederlands! Ek sal die selfde in Afrikaans.

Ek stem saam met u. Onder so 'n bestel is betreklik elke nasie se taal
omgeskep in 'n minderheidstaal. En watter taal ookal as die AB oftewel
Amptelikke Taal aangeneem word, selfs in sy volkstaalwese sal hy ook
verdring word. So ook is dit in Suid Afrika. Ek kry die Volksengelssprekende
Suid-Afrikaner jammer: Hy moet die kromme, verbrokkelde Engels van die
Heersende Bestel hoor, aanvaar, en probeer verstaan - geen maklikke taak
die!

Wel, hier in Suid Afrika bestaan daar tog tuisgebiede vir elke taalgroep,
Engels alleen uitgesonder, en heel moontlik sal die tale in hul volksgebiede
seëvier. Die voordeel en die nadeel is dat ons 'n baie swak Regering het, en
'n jammerlik oppervlakkige Administrasie. Die Staat se mag om 'n taalbeleid
oor die hele land en in elke volksgebied af te dwing is eng beperk.

Die dreigement vir enige taal bestaan ieder in die Ekonomies- en
Volks-agteruitgangs van sy volk. En dit is 'n groot gevaar. Dit is net
blote, skroeiende armoede alleen, wat 'n swarte ouer van enige taalgroep
daartoe dwing om sy kinders onder 'n swart onderwyser te vestig, of in 'n
swart skool. Hulle wil ieder onder 'n wit onderwyser studeer, in wit
geselskap verkeer, en in 'n wit skool 'n witmanstaal leer. Daar bestaan net
nie genoeg wit onerwysers om in enige Bantoetaal onderrig te gee nie. Die
Moedertale van hierdie hele geslag skoolgangende swart kinders word verdring
in belang van Afrikaans of ieder Engels, tot die mate dat ek hoor hoe swart
ouers vandag vir hulle kinders buitemuurse taalonderwys reel, in hulle ouers
se moedertaal!

Afrikaans se polietiese omvang is nou heelwat kleiner, maar snaaks genoeg is
dit in ekonomiese verband heelwat groter. Dit is net so dat so veel meer
Volksengelse die land verlaat, en hulle ekonomiese teenwoordigheid en
invloed in die Afrikaner se hande val, pleks van enige spesifieke Bantoe
taalgroep. Ek weet nie hoe lank dit sal duur nie, maar die tred is baie
sterk op die huidige tydstip.

Ja, wel: Afrikaans, Engels, en 'n heel belowende lingua franca op Zoeloe
gegrond, 'Fanagolo' dien as sulks, maar die swartes het om een of ander
slegte rede 'n skaamte ontwikkel oor Fanagolo, en die Taal gaan sterf.
Engels is erg gestraf in politiese sirkels, asook in die Administrasie en op
amptelikke - sê maar 'internasionale' bedryfsvlak, maar op die grond is die
mees vlot Engels deur Afrikaners aan volksvreemdes gerig. Hier bestaan net
nie die gees om goeie Engels te koester nie, en die swart arbeidsmag as
geheel het net nie die nodige kennis of belangstelling nie. Stamverwante
patriotisme belet dat enige Bantoetaal hierdie tale se plek sal kan
volstaan. Die Zoeloe bevolking is die grootste enkele etniese groep, maar
daar bestaan 'n bittere gees van weerwraak teen hulle as oorwinnaars en
onderdrukkers tussen die ander swart taalgroepe, en hulle is ook maar in elk
geval minder as 'n sesde van die bevolking, getalgewys.

Van Indies en Indonesies dra ek bra min kennis. Ek staan saam met u
betreffende Hebreeus, en ek het om nuuskierigheidsredes sowat vyf jaar lank
in Israel vertoef. Ek wil net die punt stel dat hulle (die Israelies), uit
hulle volkseie die Hebreeus as 'n studietaal die eeue deur gekoester het. 'n
Nominale meerderheid van hulle wat volksgesind genoeg was om Israel toe te
trek, het vanaf vyf jaar se ouderdom onderrig in Hebreeus te ontvang. Met so
'n grondslag sal 'n taal die wind van voor kry.

Die probleem is, Roger, dat die Indo-Germaanse tale, self die so eenvoudig
en analeties soos Engels, Afrikaans of Farsee, nie eintlik so maklik vir 'n
spreker uit die ander Wêreldstaalgroepe is nie. Bowendien sal politiek 'n
indringertaal kelder (Neo-Kolonialisme!).

Die klaar gevestigde Europiese tale, dalk, soos Frans, Portuguees, of Engels
of Afrikaans (ek twyfel), maar 'n beter oplossing sou wees om 'n
lingua-franka op 'n ander, verkieslik Bantoetaal te bou. Iets soos Fanagolo,
maar Fanagolo is, soos die Britte sê, 'Non-U' bestempel, en deur ons mense
afgeskryf. 'n Ander taal sou miskien op die einste wyse ontwikkel, of
andersins 'n ware middel-Afrikase lingua franka, Swahili, bantoedialekte op
'n semetiese grondslag, kan miskien die plek inneem. Sy probleem is daar is
mense wat onthou hoe dit die die slawehandelaar se taal was, en weier om dit
te gebruik.

Op die ou einde wag dit op 'n drang na enigwording uit eie bodem regoor
Afrika, om 'n Pan-Afrikaan se taal in wording te roep, maar die huidige
tendens is tot verbrokkeling, pleks van enigwording, hoe dit ookal anders
deur die 'amptelikke' state geprent is. Bid vir my Afrika!

Dioe uwe,
Mark

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From: Pyt Berg <pytbergy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.09.14 (04) [E]

If you live in the UK you would know that for many English: -

1.  Europe is Somewhere Else, by not here in Britain??
2. The "channel" is an English one.

About 25% of the population don't even think they are European.

What a sad reflection on the knowledge that many English have about their
History and the Origins of their lanagauge.

Vive Europe.  Our Cultural Diversity is our greatest strength and sometimes
our greatest
weakness.

Pieter.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

I wrote:

> Prejudices are expressed publically only among Germans,
> especially once they've got a few   beers under their belts.
> This includes folks that swear up and down that they are not
> racist or otherwise bigoted.

This may have been poorly phrased, but perhaps my intent was clear within
the context.  I was talking about one German having prejudices (often
"disguised" as jokes) against ethnic Germans from other parts of the country
(sometimes including Austrians and Swiss-Germans) but at the same time being
seemingly (or claiming to be) without prejudices regarding people from other
countries, cultures, etc.

Ed (above):

> I once walked into a conversation among three German expatriates, and one
> of them was regaling the others about how, on his last trip to Germany, he
> made fun of some Yeshiva students by speaking Yiddish with them and
mocking
> them.

Did that guy emigrate before WWII?  If not, did he slip through the
"denazification" cracks during immigration (to Canada?)?  What sort of hole
did he crawl out of?  If he was younger, might he have been a Skinhead?  If
neither
of the above, what kind of substance was he on?

I would never claim that no antisemitism remains in Germany, but I hazard a
guess that its rate is no higher, is probably lower (if for nothing else but
a tradition of guilt), than in many other European countries.  At any rate,
very, very few people would openly display their antisemitism that way.   In
my experience, for a German to come out and behave in that way is quite
unusual, certainly in the presence of someone who is not in on it.

> Any way, Shanah Tovah .... va tikvosenu!

And happy Jewish New Year from me also!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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