From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 00:33:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:33:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.31.MAR.2005.163338.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

First, dear Arthur and Robin, let me compliment you with your "Neogothic"
poem of Othmar&Atilla! I don't know if there's also music to this soldier
's song, but anyway it is fantastic enough... And romantic too, I like that

However, I have some critical remarks about it (not the song).

You said the three lines of the Crimean Gothic Catilena are:

"Wara, wara ingdalau; sku te gifa aglithau; haemysoeth forbitha ea".

But what De Busbecq (or his printer) wrote was actually:

"Wara wara ingdolou; Seu te gira Galtzou; hoemisclep dorbiza ea".

as we can see at
http://syllabus.gmxhome.de/gotica/taurica.html
where we find the original (Latin) text of De Busbecq, together with a
small vocubalary.

I think <ou> = [u] like in French, without doubt one of De Busbecq major
languages,  and in Greek - the person who tought him these words and
sentences was a Crimean Greek. I doubt it that the old Germanic thorn -
looking a bit like p or b- would have been known to him or any Crimean,
Gothic or not at that time, and then written incorrectly as p by De
Busbecq. So from DB's <hoemisclep> to your <haemysoeth> is quite a big
step. From DB's <dorbiza> to <forbitha> even bigger, not to speak of from
his <Galtzou> to your <aglithau>...

Looking at the vocabulary, I must say that I don't see why this particular
words are per se Gothic. They look much more Western Germanic to me, a bit
German, a bit Low Saxon, a bit Dutch... If Gothic or another Eastern
Germanic language would have survived so long in that Region, even it's
modern form could never look so North Western European Germanic as these
words do...
It would have kept at least more similarities with neighbouring Greek,
Turkic, Slavic, in its phonology at least, e.g. preservation of unstressed
vowels etc.
Maybe this so-called Crimean Gothics were nothing more than one of the
countless isolated old settlements from Germany in Eastern and South
Eastern Europe, both speaking High German and Low Saxon dialects.
Crimea is a part of Ukraine...

Again, this says nothing about your beautiful poem, Robin and Arthur, just
something about my opinion about this language

With all health,

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

----------

From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

Unexpected benefits of membership on LL-L.....

Arthur, your mention of the Modern Language Association of America in the
notes to the poem (which is lovely, sad, haunting, by the way) sent me off
in search of them.  Not being an academic, I had no knowledge of them, can't
join, but their website does have a link to their radio program.  Looking
over the archives for 2003 I spotted a program about women writer's in
contemporary Indian literature, the very women I've been searching out since
the late 80's.  I googled a couple of names unfamiliar to me and was taken
to India.com and their wonderful store of books, music, etc.  I now have the
names of 8 authors new to me, upon whom I will undoubtedly spend the bulk of
my spare change over the next year.  I knew this knowledge must be out
there, but where to start, with limited time?

So, thank you, and dang I wish I didn't have to buy groceries!

Marsha
/serendipity abounds
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Lowlands-L
  To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
  Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:39 PM
  Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

  Robin and I composed a poem incorporating these lines. Ron Hahn has agreed
  to list it herewith, followed by our author/translator notes.
  Hope you enjoy it.
---------

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

This is fascinating, before I read this piece I always thought that the
Goths were marauding hoards similar to Ghengis Khans, not refugees fleeing
floodlands.

Anyone know anything of a nation north of Turkey who turned to Juadism
between 200 and 700AD?

Tom

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Our resident Oregonian, Marsha (above):


> /serendipity abounds

See?  This is what happens when you grace the List with the sunshine of your
presence.  I'm glad this worked out so well for you.

The Modern Language Association of America is indeed a great resource, was
so already before electronic data processing, gathering publication data not
only from the US but from all over the world.

> So, thank you, and dang I wish I didn't have to buy groceries!

You sure are not alone there.  But please do make some time to pop in at
LL-L once in a while!

And our Irish friend Tom ...

Fáilte ar ais, a Thomáis! Cén chaoí a bhfuil tú?

Scríobh tú:

> This is fascinating, before I read this piece I always thought that the
> Goths were marauding hoards similar to Ghengis Khans, not refugees fleeing
> floodlands.

I'm glad this did something for you. Unfortunately, those of us who wish to
get a bit closer to the truth have to learn to wade through the biases of
written and popularized history.  No one mentally halfway balanced would
want to whitewash any of the violence the people on any side committed and
dealt with, but we would do well to realize that there are at least two
sides to every (hi)story (and (her)story).  In the Netherlands and Northern
Germany we were/are made to celebrate the birthday and victory Charlemagne
("Charles the Great"), and he was the guy that indiscriminately had large
masses of Saxons murdered in the name of Rome and Christianity, subduing
them to rob them of their beliefs, identity and social structure.  The
celebrated and romanticized crusading knights of Europe committed
unspeakable holocausts in the Middle East, victimizing mostly Muslims.  Some
of the most celebrated historical church figures, including Hildegard von
Bingen (1098-1179) and Martin Luther (1483-1546), loved carrying their
antisemitic hats and megaphones around.  And so the list goes on.

It's not accidental that one of the most enduring Hungarian men's names is
Attila ("little father," or better "daddy"), the name of the here vilified
and there glorified Hunnic leader (434-453).  Similarly, throughout the
Turkic- and Mongolic-speaking world, the name Čingis ~ Čengis (Chinghis ~
Chenghis) is an evergreen, not because those people admire violence and
cruelty but because they have been fed a different history of Ghengis Khan
(properly pronounced "Jengiz Khan," by the way).  And all those scary names
like "Goths," "Vandals," "Langobards" and "Barbarians" (Berbers) are
connected with similarly distorted, polarized histories.  When Mr. bin Ladin
refers to Westerners as "crusaders" (الصل� ب� ون) he does so to capitalize
from centuries of fear of Christians.

So thanks to Robin and Arthur for reminding us that the Goths, too, had
endured a lot of suffering, and that much of their attributed cruelty had to
do with a struggle for survival, something common to all of "tribal"
Eurasia.

> Anyone know anything of a nation north of Turkey who turned to Juadism
> between 200 and 700AD?

Hmm ... "north of Turkey" ... That's a large area.  Two ethnicities spring
to mind:

(1) the Karaim/Karaits of Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine (who use the Hebrew
alphabet to write their Turkic language varieties)
See: http://www.turkiye.net/sota/karaim.html

(2) the Khazars of a large area north of the Caucasus, apparently of mixed
origin with a large Turkic base
See: http://www.khazaria.com/

Robin and Arthur, thanks for the poignant poem that brings the Goths to life
in our minds!  Have you considered submitting it for print publication?

Coming back home to the Lowlands, below are my attempts of translating the
Gothic verse:

>     Wara wara ing-dalau
>     Scu te gifa agliþau
>    Hæmysoeþ forbiþa ea,
>     Attila, Attila.
>
>     Beware, beware the plunging blade,
>     It shall bring you bitter anguish,
>     Banished from your ancestral home.
>     Attila, Attila.

Modern Low Saxon (North Saxon):

     Waar dy, waar! Dat sweyrt syn stoot
     Schal dy geven pyn un dood,
     Verbaden jou de haymaat-eyrd'.
     Attila! Attila!

     Wahr di, wahr! Dat Sweert sien Stoot
     Schall di gäven Pien un Doot,
     Verbaden jo de Heimaateer.
     Attila! Attila!

Old English:

     Bewar, bewar þec! Blædgefeallu
     Scal ðe ƽiefan pīn ond bealu.
     Cŷþþland is forbéadan ƽiu.
     Attila! Attila!

Compromise spelling for the ASCII dinosaurs:

     Bewar, bewar thec! Blaedgefeallu
     Scal dhe giefan pi^n ond bealu
     Cy^ththland is forbe'adan giu.
     Attila! Attila!

Old Saxon:

     UUar thî, uuar! The herufelan
     Skal thî gevan uundarkwelan.
     Hêmland is farbiodan iu.
     Attila! Attila!

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 00:50:16 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:50:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.03.31 (09) [E/S]
Message-ID: <THU.31.MAR.2005.165016.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: April 1st Query

In Edinburgh on this date the victim of a prank would have the word
"HUNTYGOWK" yelled at him/her.
If the prankster did this after noon the victim would recite loudly.
"Huntygowk's past an yewr a stupit ass.
Up the tree an doon the tree,
Yew're a bigger fuil thun me !"

My question friends is what's the origin of Huntygowk ?In Scots a
'Gowk' is three clowns short of a circus (eg Away Ye go Ye daft gowk
Ye) but 'Hunty' ?
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 01:04:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:04:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.31 (10) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.31.MAR.2005.170417.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks for reminding me of April Fool's before it hits America, Tom.  You
can never be too careful, and this gives me some time to think up possible
pranks and their victims.  (Bewar, bewar! Aprelissott!)

In actual fact, I wonder if I have been pranked already.  I just received a
news report from the good folks at Plattnet.de, and it says that Low Saxon
(Low German) is supposed to become the top official language of the German
state of Sleswig-Hulsteen/Slesvig-Holsten/Schleswig-Holstein.  Excuse me ...
What?!

Hmmm ...
Reinhard/Ron

***

Plattdeutsch soll erste Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein werden

(pn) CDU und SPD in Schleswig-Holstein wollen Koalitionsgespräche zur
Bildung einer gemeinsamen Landesregierung aufnehmen. Dazu haben die
Parteigremien am Mittwochabend grünes Licht gegeben, nachdem die
Unterhändler, allen voran SPD-Chef Claus Möller und der CDU-Vorsitzende
Peter Harry Carstensen, von erfolgreichen Annäherungen während ihrer
Sondierungsgespräche berichtet hatten.

Inzwischen wurden erste Ergebnisse ihrer Vereinbarungen bekannt, die
baldmöglichst umgesetzt werden sollen. So ist unter anderem geplant,
Plattdeutsch zur ersten Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein zu erklären. "De
Lüüd in't Land mööt endlich klor un dütlich verstahn könn'n, wat de
Politikers in't Landeshuus seggen wüllt", verkündete gut gelaunt der
CDU-Mann Carstensen, und sein SPD-Kollege Möller fügte selbstbewusst hinzu:
"Wi hebbt markt, dat wi mit Plattdüütsch de gröttste Schnittmenge twüschen
de beiden Parteien tofaten hebbt."


Es darf erwartet werden, dass diese Maßnahme, die die Parlaments- und
Regierungskultur in Schleswig-Holstein nachhaltig verändern dürfte, vom SSW
mit positiver Zustimmung geduldet wird, gilt doch die Vorsitzende dieser
wichtigen politischen Kraft im Lande, Anke Spoorendonk, als überaus
qualifizierte Plattdeutschsprecherin. Das mag für die Koalition von
entscheidender Bedeutung sein, wird doch der Haltung des SSW inzwischen
bundesweit Beachtung geschenkt.


Vertreter der zukünftigen Opposition hielten sich bislang mit Stellungnahmen
zurück. Karl-Martin Hentschel (Bündnis 90/Die Grünen) reagierte zunächst
besonders grimmig, wollte aber einem gemeinsamen Urteil seiner
Fraktionskollegen nicht vorgreifen; und FDP-Fraktionschef Wolfgang Kubicki
erklärte, sich mit spöttischen Reaktionen vorerst zurückhalten zu wollen.


Mit betont diplomatischer Gelassenheit äußerte sich Landtagspräsident Martin
Kayenburg. Aufgrund eines intensiven Studiums der Akten seines Vorgängers
Heinz-Werner Arens fühle er sich durchaus in der Lage, binnen kurzer Zeit
die sprachliche Kompetenz erwerben zu können, um die Sitzungen des
Landesparlaments in plattdeutscher Sprache leiten zu können.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:07:35 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:07:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.080735.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.03.31 (02) [E]

On 01/04/2005, at 2:36 AM, heather rendall
<HeatherRendall at compuserve.com> wrote:

> to conk out = to fail / break down- especially of a car      After a
> few
> minutes the engine conked out.
>
> I cannot remember it being used  to refer to people -

It certainly was in my youth in Edinburgh Scotland, especially on
January 2nd when Hogmanay survivors would tell about how poor X 'conked
out' around 2 am.

As to conkers while in Ghana I looked over specimen elementary math
questions and found they had simply transferred English ones lock stock
and barrel. There was one that stated James has 5 conkers, Charles has
twice that number plus 3. How many do they have all together ? I
enquired of my local staff if they knew what a conker was.....no way !
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

---------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.03.31 (03) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, Marsha:

The Afrikaans pronunciation of 'koek' is more like the /oo/ in 'took'
than the oo in soon.

[Ron said: Afrikaans cognates are _koek_, pronounced "kook" (with "oo" as
in "soon"), _pannekoek_ being "pancake."  Low Saxon (Northern Saxon
dialects) has _kouken_ (<Koken>), pronounced like "koken" or "kowken", with
the pancake derivation _pan-kouken_ (<Pannkoken>).  Medieval Low Saxon has
_k?ke_.

Cheerio!
Elsie Zinsser

---------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.31 (10) [E/German]


Ron wrote:
"(Bewar, bewar! Aprelissott!)"

Is the second syllable in _aprelissott_ the same word as the now archaic
Eng. _sot_ meaning "fool" (but latterly also a euphemisim for "drunkard"
e.g., _Suleyman the Sot_ as a nickname for one of the Ottoman sultans if I
recall)? If so, where do _sot_ and _fool_ come from?

It being close to April Fools' Day I thought I would ask a daft / easy /
lazy question.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology


Ûser léofe fríond Críostóir wrát bufan:

> Is the second syllable in _aprelissott_ the same word as the now archaic
> Eng. _sot_ meaning "fool" (but latterly also a euphemisim for "drunkard"
> e.g., _Suleyman the Sot_ as a nickname for one of the Ottoman sultans
> if I recall)?

Gíese.

Actually, it's the fourth syllable, and the compound noun is my invention,
though the components are really Old English.

> If so, where do _sot_ and _fool_ come from?

SOT:
OEng _sott_ < OFrench _sot_  < Latin _sottus_
> MidDutch _sot_ ~ _sod_ > ModDutch _zot_, MidSax _sot(t)_ > ModSax _sot_
> (<Sott>)
'fool, 'drunkard'

FOOL:
MidEng _fôl_ < OFrench _fol_ (> ModFrench _fou_)
Cf. folly < Mid Eng _folie_ < OFrench _folie_

Æt fríondlîce grœtan,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:12:01 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:12:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.01 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.081201.0800.>

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.31 (10) [E/German]


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Plattdeutsch soll erste Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein werden.

Wouldn´t that be something?!

Dreamt by Mike Wintzer

---------

From: waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.31 (10) [E/German]

From: Waki yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp

Hallo Ron san,
I have also received the same news. I have wondered also, if this news is
true. I have ever heard that "Plattdeutsch" is an official launguage of
"Stadtrat" of Heide in Holstein. And some members of the "Bundestag" are
working to make "Plattdeutsch" one of the official languages.

I have read the news from Platt.de very interesting, but with a question
mark?.

Hartlich,
Yasuji Waki ut Japan

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language politics
>
> Thanks for reminding me of April Fool's before it hits America, Tom.  You
> can never be too careful, and this gives me some time to think up possible
> pranks and their victims.  (Bewar, bewar! Aprelissott!)
>
> In actual fact, I wonder if I have been pranked already.  I just received
> a
> news report from the good folks at Plattnet.de, and it says that Low Saxon
> (Low German) is supposed to become the top official language of the German
> state of Sleswig-Hulsteen/Slesvig-Holsten/Schleswig-Holstein.  Excuse me
> ...
> What?!
>
> Hmmm ...
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> ***
>
> Plattdeutsch soll erste Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein werden
>
> (pn) CDU und SPD in Schleswig-Holstein wollen Koalitionsgespräche zur
> Bildung einer gemeinsamen Landesregierung aufnehmen. Dazu haben die
> Parteigremien am Mittwochabend grünes Licht gegeben, nachdem die
> Unterhändler, allen voran SPD-Chef Claus Möller und der CDU-Vorsitzende
> Peter Harry Carstensen, von erfolgreichen Annäherungen während ihrer
> Sondierungsgespräche berichtet hatten.
>
> Inzwischen wurden erste Ergebnisse ihrer Vereinbarungen bekannt, die
> baldmöglichst umgesetzt werden sollen. So ist unter anderem geplant,
> Plattdeutsch zur ersten Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein zu erklären. "De
> Lüüd in't Land mööt endlich klor un dütlich verstahn könn'n, wat de
> Politikers in't Landeshuus seggen wüllt", verkündete gut gelaunt der
> CDU-Mann Carstensen, und sein SPD-Kollege Möller fügte selbstbewusst
> hinzu:
> "Wi hebbt markt, dat wi mit Plattdüütsch de gröttste Schnittmenge twüschen
> de beiden Parteien tofaten hebbt."
>
> Es darf erwartet werden, dass diese Maßnahme, die die Parlaments- und
> Regierungskultur in Schleswig-Holstein nachhaltig verändern dürfte, vom
> SSW
> mit positiver Zustimmung geduldet wird, gilt doch die Vorsitzende dieser
> wichtigen politischen Kraft im Lande, Anke Spoorendonk, als überaus
> qualifizierte Plattdeutschsprecherin. Das mag für die Koalition von
> entscheidender Bedeutung sein, wird doch der Haltung des SSW inzwischen
> bundesweit Beachtung geschenkt.
>
> Vertreter der zukünftigen Opposition hielten sich bislang mit
> Stellungnahmen
> zurück. Karl-Martin Hentschel (Bündnis 90/Die Grünen) reagierte zunächst
> besonders grimmig, wollte aber einem gemeinsamen Urteil seiner
> Fraktionskollegen nicht vorgreifen; und FDP-Fraktionschef Wolfgang Kubicki
> erklärte, sich mit spöttischen Reaktionen vorerst zurückhalten zu wollen.
>
> Mit betont diplomatischer Gelassenheit äußerte sich Landtagspräsident
> Martin
> Kayenburg. Aufgrund eines intensiven Studiums der Akten seines Vorgängers
> Heinz-Werner Arens fühle er sich durchaus in der Lage, binnen kurzer Zeit
> die sprachliche Kompetenz erwerben zu können, um die Sitzungen des
> Landesparlaments in plattdeutscher Sprache leiten zu können.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:17:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:17:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.04.01 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.081717.0800.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.03.31 (09) [E/S]


Tom McRae wrote:
"My question friends is what's the origin of Huntygowk? In Scots a 'Gowk' is
three clowns short of a circus (eg Away Ye go Ye daft gowk Ye) but 'Hunty'?"

I cannot propose any meaning for _hunty_. However, here in Derry the term
_gack_ is still used (often in the adjective _gacky_) to mean "foolishly or
cloyingly embarrassing but well-intentioned", in much the same way as
Australian _dag_ and _daggy_ (i.e., _wat a gack_ "What a dag" ). Do you
reckon the two are related?

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.03.31 (09) [E/S]

Tom speirt:

> My question friends is what's the origin of Huntygowk ?In Scots a
> 'Gowk' is three clowns short of a circus (eg Away Ye go Ye daft gowk
> Ye) but 'Hunty' ?

Hunt the Gowk.

a fool’s errand, some one sent on such an errand.

Andy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

_Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
(<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:24:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:24:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.04.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.082409.0800.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (08) [E]

Tom writes:Anyone know anything of a nation north of Turkey who turned to
Juadism between 200 and 700AD?

These were the Khazars of Khazikstan
se Arthur Koestler's "The thirteenth Tribe" for his history of them.

Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:25:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:25:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.082540.0800.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Phonology" 2005.03.31 (07) [E]

Hi everyone,

Interesting point that Paul Finlow-Bates made:
When I was learning Afrikaans, "ui" was the trickiest sound to master.

I have to tell you that the rounded ui [@i] is increasingly getting
pronounced
ai [ai], especially in Johannesburg and Pretoria. So buite [b at it@] is
becoming
baaite [bait@].

Even my 4-year old grandson is doing this.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:01:37 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:01:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2005.04.01 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.140137.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy April (no kidding)!

Welcome to all of you who joined us since my last administrative message! At
the end of this message is a list of your places of residence. I am
particularly pleased to welcome more new members from Africa (sort of): our
first member from Mauritius, our first member from Sudan and our third
member from Morocco.

Allo! Ki manyer? Mo kontan monne zwin u.
أهلا و سهلا! !عل� كم السلام

Two more weeks to go till the unveiling of our anniversary presentation!
Thanks to all of you who have already contributed translations, sound files,
introductions and suggestions. Time for the rest of you to get cracking!
Below is what I wrote about it earlier. It applies to you whether you joined
us today, ten years ago or in between.

Before I get to normal List business, let me remind you of our upcoming 10th
anniversary (April/May 2005) and the anniversary project we are putting
together: a collection of translations of a Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
folktale in various Lowlands language varieties (*any* varieties) and other
languages, both reading and for listening. You will find the raw material
here: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html . But we will
present this elsewhere, jazzed up, and with sound. It's going to be really
terrific.

Some subscribers have already contributed to this. Thanks to all of them.
Contribution recognition awards will be handed out later.

More is needed, folks! Besides translations and sound recordings, we need
subscribers' brief (1-8 paragraphs) introductions, preferably with pictures,
but contributions without pictures will be gladly received too. Just
introduce yourselves, say where (in general) you live and originally come
from, what sorts of interests you have, and what your experiences and/or
first impressions you have as relates to Lowlands-L. We want to show folks
out there the diversity of membership. We do not want to impress them with
great names and achievements, just show them that virtually anyone at any
level of knowledge and experience and from any part of the world is welcome
to join us and is likely to gain something from it. If you are new to the
List, by all means, introduce yourselves and tell us what you hope to get
out of it and what your experiences have been so far. You may do so in any
language you like, do not need to write in English or in another Lowlands
language. If you do it bilingually, that would be great.

If you want to contribute introductions or translations, please send them to
me (sassisch at yahoo.com), and I will pass them on to Mathieu van Woerkom, our
webmaster who is designing a very nice new site for the occasion. We are not
concerned about duplication. If there is already a translation in your
language, please send us yours anyway. No two people tell a story exactly
alike, nor do they have exactly the same pronunciation. The main thing is
that your write and speak in a *natural* way. If you want to contribute
sound recordings, please get in touch with Henry Pijffers
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approaches regarding some issues, it is best to assume that your fellow
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assumption is a good preventive measure when tempers want to flare up. No
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unwelcome here and on any other list.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Two more weeks to go till our 10th anniversary ... and our membership keeps
on growing.

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

***

Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since March 1, 2005:
     Canada:
          Alberta:
               Calgary [1]
     Morocco:
          `Ain AlSeba` (ع� ن السبع):
               Casablanca (الدار الب� ضاء AlDâr AlBîđâ`) [1]
     Mauritius:
          Beau Bassin:
               Chebel [1]
     Netherlands:
          Groningen:
               Groningen [1]
          Utrecht:
               Utrecht [1]
          Zwolle:
               Overijssel [1]
     Poland:
          Mazowsze:
               Warsaw (Warszawa) [1]
     Sudan:
          Khartoum:
               Khartoum [1]
     Turkey:
          Ankara:
               Ankara [1]
     United Kingdom:
          England:
               Nottinghamshire:
                    Nottingham [1]
     United States of America:
          Idaho:
               Boise [1]
          Illinois:
               Chicago [1]
          Kansas:
               Hillsboro [1]
          Massachusetts:
               West Springfield [1]
          Oregon:
               Boring [1]
          Wyoming:
               Laramie [1]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:04:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:04:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.140421.0800.>

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S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (05) [E]


Groeten, alle

Dumb (even for me!) question: is this _ui to ai_ process similar to that
which occurred in the Six Counties of the North of Ireland, _house_ to
_hais_ ?, Or _pound_ to _paind_ ?

I recall that non-Dutch also have trouble with the square in Amsterdam named
_Spui_, pronouncing it e.g., _spow_ or _spooee_. Something like an unstable
molecule, inte sant?

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:06:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:06:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.04.01 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.140624.0800.>

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From: Dan Prohaska <danielprohaska at bluewin.ch>
Subject: "Grammar" [E]

Just to throw in my two centS worth...

I've often heard "pound" or "dollar" in the singular when following a
numeral higher than one. It always sounded a little "folksy" but never
"incorrect".

So if "three pound" and "three dollar" is fine, why not "three Euro"?

Dan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:42:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:42:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (09) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.144232.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.04.01 (03) [E]


Tom McRae wrote:

"My question friends is what's the origin of Huntygowk? In Scots a 'Gowk' is

three clowns short of a circus (eg Away Ye go Ye daft gowk Ye) but 'Hunty'?"

Hi Tom, I can’t help you with hunty either, but:

This sound suspiciously like one of the ways the Dutch use the word "gek"

Although it's basic meaning is "insane", ( like gekkenhuis = insane asylum )
we use it idiomatically in several different ways; none of these illicits
the reaction which you get when you tell an AE speaking listener that he/she
is crazy.

Here is a sampling:

Dat is niet gek. ( Pas mal ça )

Jan is een mooie gek. ( John is a funny guy, I am fond of him )

Die jurk ziet er niet gek uit. ( That dress does’nt look bad at all,
actuallly it is rather attractive.)

Jaap is gek met zijn nieuwe computer ( Jaap is so proud of his new computer,
he can’t stop playing with it )

Stop met dat lawaai, ik word er gek van. ( Mother to children: Stop the
noise, it is driving me crazy.

My mother to me: Doe maar gewoon dan doe je al gek genoeg. ( Don’t act in
this extravagant way, you’re abnormal enough when you act like a normal
human being )

Finally a proverb: Hij is goed maar niet gek. (He may be very nice, but you
can’t make a fool of him)

This is just a sampling, there are many more. Jacqueline

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Dag, Reinhard, Lowlanners,

de meersten van Jau schöllt woll dat Woord *appeldwatsch* kennen, HG:
'verquer, besserwisserisch', E: 'obstinate'.

Vöör 'n Stücker wat Doog hevv ick nu ook *beer[n?]dwatsch* höört, un' ick
weet ne recht, wat dat woll meen'n schall. Komt dat woll van 'Beer' E: beer'
or van 'Beern', E: 'pear'?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Jacqueline,

In the North Saxon dialects of Low Saxon in Germany you won't find _gek_
(<Geck>) used very often, probably mostly in the far west, but I assume it's
used more in the Westphalian dialects.  Northern Germans tend to associate
the word with the Rhenish area and carnaval.  I don't think you can use it
as an adjective, but I'm not sure.  As an adjective, it sounds particularly
"dialectical" to me.

I guess the most likely North Saxon equivalent is _nar_ (<Narr>), which is
also a German word.  The connected adjectives/adverbs are _narsch_
(<narrsch>) and _närrisch_ respectively.  This expresses less insanity than
foolishness or silliness.  The North Saxon adjective/adverb most likely to
be used to hint at insanity would be _mal_ (<mall>, from French), but it,
too, can be used to imply silliness.  (E.g., _Wees nich so mal!_ 'Don't be
so silly!')  This can even be used inanimates, such as _mallen kraam_ or
_mal tuyg_ ("stupid/silly stuff").  In that sense it transitions over to
_dwatsch_ or _appel-dwatsch_ which, semantically originating in the idea of
"contrary," tends more toward "non-sensical."  It too can be used with
inanimate and animate objects; e.g., _(appel-)dwatschen kraam_ 'nonsense'
and _(appel-)dwatschen keyrl_ 'silly, nonsense-talking guy'.

Which, most elegantly, takes me to our Jonny's question about
_beer[n?]dwatsch_, which I'll respond to in English.

Jonny, I've come across that word too and assume it's a dialectical variant
of _appel-dwatsch_, which contains the word for "apple" -- so "apple-silly."

Yes, I assume _beren-dwatsch_ contains the word for 'pear'.

(An extended version of _dwatsch_ appears to be _dwaller-watsch_.)

Apples and pears seem to imply ordinariness or inferiority.  You get this
for instance in _bakbeern-kraam_ or _bakberen-tuyg_ ("baking pear stuff" =
"dried pear stuff") in reference to "(ordinary) stuff," derogatory reference
to belongings; e.g., _Al syn bakberen-kraam ligt noch up d'n boen rüm_ (<All
sien Backbeernkraam liggt noch up'n Böön rüm.>) 'All is stuff is still lying
about in the attic.'

Apparently, LS _dwatsch_ is related to German _Quatsch_ 'nonsense'.  LS /dv/
occasionally corresponds to G /kv/, as also in _dwars_ = _quer_
'transverse', 'across'.  (Cf. German _Quark_ from Slavonic _tvarok_)

Is this worth at least 0.10 Euro(s)?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:58:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:58:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.01 (10) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.145838.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Aha! Nu hebt sey 't tou-geven, de drysten keyrls vun Plattnet-de! Tou-kamen
jaar schullen dey sik beter waren ...

Aha! Nu hebbt se 't togeven, de driesten Keerls vun Plattnet.de! Tokamen
Jahr schullen de sik beter wahrn ...

Aha! Now those scoundrels of Plattnet.de have confessed that their news of
Low Saxon (Low German) being made the first language of Schleswig-Holstein
was a mere April Fool's prank!  They'd better watch their backs next year
...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Dumm Tüüg an'n 1. April bi de PLATTNET-Narichten


Wi weet, Peter Harry Carstensen (CDU) un Claus Möller (SPD) sünd al
mennigmal to'n plattdüütschen Klönsnack tohopen kamen. Dor güng dat meist
bannig kommodig to. Man nu hebbt se dat swore Geschäft vör sik, ehre
Parteien to en Koalitionsverdrag to bringen, dormit dat en niege Regeern in
Sleswig-Holsteen gifft. Wat dorbi ok wat Godes för't Plattdüütsche rutkümmt,
dat weet wi nich - schön weer't.
Plattdüütsch as eerste Amtsspraak in't Land inföhrn? Dat weer dumm Tüüch,
wat sik PLATTNET hett infallen laten. Weer Spijöök to'n 1. April.
Velen Dank för de velen Mails, de wi dorto kregen hebbt.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 23:56:39 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:56:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (11) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.155639.0800.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (09) [E/LS]

Topic: *beer[n?]dwatsch*

Beste Reinhard,

a.s.a.p., my answer and correction!!!

Today we have got April, the first!!  No beer, no pear, but fear, this could
become a real word. I am afraid, You and all our people could be taken into.

Very smiling Greutens, with a slight  "sorry" for all of You with Your
loveable linguistic blue-eyness.

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm;
"de Swienegel"! April, April!

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (09) [E/LS]

Ron.

You are even worse than me! At the second time reading Your answer I became
aware of Your filthy things.

Haul Di fuchtig!

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology


Jonny,

Ah, nu bün ik up lest lykers rin-vullen! Mit "swyn-eygel" hest recht,
dwaller-watschen, tuyn-snakken slip-steyrt, den du büst! Daar hest sachs d'n
heylen dag gryn-smuystern up gyperd, dat ik un/or wen anners daar rin-pedden
dout. Un na stünden-lang sinneyren hev ik my sülven in-snakt dat ik dat tou
vör al maal hoyrd or lest hev ... Oh, Jonny! Wen du Dy dat tou minst mouden
büst, den kryg' ik Dy eyrsten-daags by de vlünken, un den schast maal seyn,
'keyn tou lest un up 't best lachen dayt. Waar Dy! Waar Dy elk dag, elk
minuut!

Ah, so at long last I did fall into an April Fool's trap! (I guess I had it
coming karma-like after dishing it out liberally off the List a few years
ago.) I can just picture you grinning all day, waiting for me to step into
it, you rascal. And to think that after hours of pondering it I actually
managed to talk myself into believing that I have heard or read that word
before ... Goes to show you ... But be warned, Jonny, and be afraid, be very
afraid! Sometime, sooner or later, when you least expect it, I'll get you,
and I'll get you good, and then we'll see who laughs last and laughs best.
Watch your back at all times! Oh, I'd be very, yerrry afraid if I were you!
(And the same goes for any possible smirking supporter of yours on the cheap
seats of the peanut gallery).

> You are even worse than me! At the second time reading Your
> answer I became aware of Your filthy things.

"Filthy things"?! I don't even know what you're talking about (unless you've
been snooping around my laundry hamper). Might we by any chance be dealing
with that overactive imagination of yours?

Bamboozled, puzzled and ominous,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 00:56:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:56:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.01 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.165632.0800.>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

Our own Michael Montgomery ( Distinguished Professor Emeritus of English and
Linguistics at the University of South Carolina) kindly sent me a sample
file of Smoky Mountain English for a dedicated web presentation he is
planning.

He writes this:

<quote>

Attached to the message forwarded below is a sound file that you might like
to post at the anniversary
website. It contains a fine story recorded in 1939 by my coeditor for the
_Dictionary of Smoky Mountain
English_, Joseph Sargent Hall. The sound quality is not the best, but is
still quite good considering the
fact that it was recorded on aluminum disk two-thirds of a century ago.  The
speaker is Mr. Eugene Sutton of
Cataloochee, North Carolina (now within the Great Smoky Mountains National
Park), who was 43 years old
at the time of the recording.</quote><quote>Dear FolksAs promised a couple
of days ago, I am sending you herewith attached one sample excerpt from the
Joseph Hall recordings. This is a brief anecdote told by Eugene Sutton (age
43) of Cataloochee, North Carolina, about his grandfather in 1939. It's one
of the best samples in the collection. You will need Media Player to hear
this file.For those interested in further information on materials collected
by Joseph Hall, you might be interested in knowing that all of his personal
copies have been deposited in the Archives of Appalachia at East Tennessee
State University. As you can discover from the detailed finding aid at their
website (go to cass.etsu.edu/ and from there), these include not only
recordings, but also a very large body of unpublished print materials, much
of which I used in the recently published _Dictionary of Smoky Mountain
English_. That work includes a good bit of biographical information about
his as well. With best wishesMichael </quote>This is fantastic!Anyway, he
has given me permission to share this file with you.  I have placed it here
(at least for the time
being):http://www.lowlands-l.net/treasures/Joseph_Sargent_Hall.wmaEnjoy!Reinhard/Ron==============================END===================================*
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 18:18:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:18:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.101852.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (07) [E]

<ou> to <ai> is not exactly the same as Afr. <ui> to <ai>, because Afr.
<ou> doesn't become <ai> but keeps its value, but probably this N. Irish
Engl. process had an intermediate stadium where <ou> went <ui> first, and
then <ui> became <ai>.

I'll give a tip for all non-Dutch how to pronounce <ui> easily:
first say [a] (like in Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish etc) and then say
[y](=Dutch/French <u>, German <ü>, Scandinavian <y>).
So: huis = ha~üs, ha~us, ha~ys, and Spui = spa~ü, spa~u, spa~y, etc.

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (05) [E]
>
>Groeten, alle
>
>Dumb (even for me!) question: is this _ui to ai_ process similar to that
>which occurred in the Six Counties of the North of Ireland, _house_ to
>_hais_ ?, Or _pound_ to _paind_ ?
>
>I recall that non-Dutch also have trouble with the square in Amsterdam
named
>_Spui_, pronouncing it e.g., _spow_ or _spooee_. Something like an
unstable
>molecule, inte sant?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 18:45:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:45:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.02 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.104509.0800.>

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Language varieties


Sorry for the long absence, was in Italy with school (10 days long).

Wij (in België) zijn op school net bezig met vergelijkende taalwetenschap,
de Indo-Europese verwantschappen e.d., niet echt diepgaand dus voor mij
niets nieuws, maar wel goed dat zo ook minder geïnteresseerde kinderen toch
íéts leren over deze materie. Zo de stamboom, de 1ste Germaanse en de
Hoogduitse klankverschuivingen en al.
Eerlijk gezegd ben ik wel de enige van mijn klas wie dit onderwerp kan
boeien, de rest wil dat het zo rap mogelijk voorbij is 8-)
Dit is ook alleen voor sommige klassen, enkel in ASO en dan nog slechts in
de klassen die genoeg tijd over hebben en geacht worden "het aan te
kunnen" - de "slimmere" klassen om het cru te stellen.
Maar dat Limburgs en Laag-Duits talen op zich zijn, en dat men in
Oost-Nederland Laag-Duits spreekt, zo ver gaat men niet in onze lessen 8-)

Diederik Masure

Ingmar wrote:
Is it taught at school as a fact, for instance? Is anything taught about
the other Germanic languages? Here in the Netherlands we don't learn
anything about the history or relationships of our languages, but it's
obvious enough to everyone that German and English are related languages.
At secondary school, everyone has to learn a few years of English and
German (and French) as foreign languages, besides Dutch of course and
Frisian in the province of Friesland. At History class we are taught about
our ancestors the Frisians (in the North & West)), the Saxons (East &
North East) and the Franks (South), so there is some common knowledge
about this kind of things anyway. Although the facts would tell us e.g.
that in the Eastern Netherlands, where Low Saxon dialects are spoken
nowadays, no Saxons but Chamavian (Hamaland) Franks dwelled in the old
days... The Homeland of the Salii (Salian Franks) that conquered and
founded France was Salland, in the province of Overijssel, which in
present days is completely Low Saxon territory.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Welcome back, Diederik!  I hope you had loads of fun in Italy.

> Wij (in België) zijn op school net bezig met vergelijkende taalwetenschap,
> de Indo-Europese verwantschappen e.d., niet echt diepgaand dus voor
> mij niets nieuws, maar wel goed dat zo ook minder geïnteresseerde
> kinderen toch íéts leren over deze materie. Zo de stamboom, de 1ste
> Germaanse en de Hoogduitse klankverschuivingen en al.

Cool! U hebt geluk. Deze onderwerpen worden in scholen van de meeste andere
landen genegeerd, en daarom hebben de meeste mensen geen echt geestelijk
beeld
van hun eigen taal.

> Maar dat Limburgs en Laag-Duits talen op zich zijn, en dat men in
> Oost-Nederland Laag-Duits spreekt, zo ver gaat men niet in onze
> lessen 8-)

Hmmm ... eigenlijk "Nedersaksisch" (of "Nederduits" ~ "Platduits").

"Nederduits" is eigenlijk de naam van de West-Germaanse tak van de zich de
zustertwijgen "Nederfrankisch" en "Nedersaksisch" ontwikkelden.

Talking about "Low Franconian," folks ... Recently I found references to
_Deutsch-Niederländisch_ ("German Dutch") in some literature, referring to
the Low Franconian dialects used on the German side of the borders.
Interesting!

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 18:54:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:54:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.105441.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.04.01 (03) [E]

On 02/04/2005, at 2:17 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  wrote:

Starting to get intriguing Ron.
on the US carnival circuit some midways had a revolting show involving
a total alcoholic who would rip up live chickens and eat them.
He was known in Carny parlance as 'A Geek'.  Looking at your Durch and
Low Saxon examples I can't help wondering.....

> Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

G'day, Tom!

The _Oxford English Dictionary_ seems to be leaning toward the theory of
"geek" belonging to the group "geck," "gack" and "gowk."  So your hunch
seems to be on the right track.

Interestingly, Scots _gowk_ 'fool' also means 'cuckoo'. Earlier?  Is it a
coincidence that in many languages people refer to cuckoos when indicating
that someone isn't "right in the head"?  In German, such a person has a
"bird" (_Vogel_).  Might all this have something to do with the cuckoo's odd
behavior, including its habit of tricking other birds into raising its
young?

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 23:27:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:27:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.152730.0800.>

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From: speegled at slu.edu <speegled at slu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]

I don't think the old <ui> in Afrikaans is anywhere near extinct.  I hear
my son, who is 5 years old, say "ons is by die huis" beautifully,
exaggerating the difference between "by" and "huis".  He must have heard it
somewhere... I also, over the last few days, have tried to find examples
in songs or poems where people rhyme <ui> with <ai>, and I couldn't.  I
did find many examples where people rhyme "u" with "i", though.

"Die naald bly dwaal net so regs van nul,
want ek maak net soos ek wil."

And who could ever forget:

"Dit was 'n moerse klug,
dit was PW se gesig"

Would rhyming "u" with "i" sound OK in the other Lowlands languages?

Darrin

> <ou> to <ai> is not exactly the same as Afr. <ui> to <ai>, because Afr.
> <ou> doesn't become <ai> but keeps its value, but probably this N. Irish
> Engl. process had an intermediate stadium where <ou> went <ui> first, and
> then <ui> became <ai>.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Darrin!

Rounded vowels and their unrounded equivalents occasionally occur in Low
Saxon rhymes, especially the following:


E.g., from poems by Klaus Groth (http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/):

>From "Min Modersprak":

   Min Modersprak, wa klingst du SCHÖN!
   Wa büst du mi vertrut!
   Weer ok min Hart as Stahl un STEEN,
   du drevst den Stolt herut.

   Myn mouder-spraak, wa’ klingst du SCHOYN!
   Wa’ büst du my vertruud!
   Weyr ook myn hart as staal un STEYN,
   du dreyvst d’n stolt heruut.

   My native tongue, how sweet you sound!
   I’m so at home with you!
   And if my heart were steel and stone,
   You’d purge it of its pride.

>From "Plattdütsch in Chicago":

   De awer, de vun Hus un Klus
   De Not drev, dat GESCHICK,
   De, de der gan un wannern muß
   Un söken na dat GLÜCK

   Dey aver, dey vun huus un kluus’
   Dey nood dreyv’, dat GESCHIK,
   Dey, dey der gaan un wannern muss
   Un söyken na dat GLÜK

   But those that had to leave their homes,
   Driven by want, by fate,
   Those that were forced to emigrate
   To try their luck elsewhere

From: "De Mœl":

   De Pock quarkt int Rohr,
   De Voss bru’t int Moor,
   Un wit inne Feern schallt Gesank.
   Min Hart stiggt to HÖCH,
   Ik weet ni, wa’k SEEG,
   De Thran lopt de Backen hentlank.

   Dey pok kwarkt in ’t roor,
   Dey voss bruu’dt in ’t moor,
   Un wyd in dey veyrn schalt gesang.
   Myn hart stigt tou HÖYG’.
   Ik weet ni, wa’ ’k SEYG’.
   Dey traan’n loupt dey bakken hentlang.

   Frogs croak among the reeds,
   Foxes banter on the moor,
   And singing is heard from afar.
   My heart takes a leap,
   My eyesight’s a blur,
   And tears are streaming down my cheeks.

>From "Dat Moor":

   De Borrn bewegt sik op un dal,
   As gingst du langs en böken Bahl,
   Dat Water schülpert inne Graff,
   De Grasnarv bewert op un af;
   Dat geit hendal, dat geit TOHÖCH
   So lisen as en KINNERWEEG.

   Dey borr’n beweegt sik op un daal,
   As gingst du langs eyn böyken baal.
   Dat water schülpert in dey grav.
   Dey grasnarv’ bevert op un af.
   Dat gayt hendaal, dat gayt TOUHÖYG’
   So lysen as eyn KINDER-WEYG’.

   The ground keeps moving up and down.
   It’s like walking on a beech-wood board.
   The water’s sloshing in the ditch.
   The turf keeps quaking up and off.
   Now it goes down, now it goes up
   As gently as a baby’s cradle.

>From "Hartleed":

   Un kumt he nu un nimmermehr,
   Wo schall ik eenmal HIN!
   So sack ik as dat Lof na Eer
   Vœr Schimp un Schann un SÜNN!«

   Un kumt hey nu un nimmer meyr,
   Waar schal ik eynmaal HIN?
   So sak ik as dat louv na eyrd’
   Vör schimp un schan un SÜN!«

   What if he’ll never be around?
   I’d leave. But to what place?
   Like dead leaves I’d fall to the ground
   For shame, sin and disgrace.”


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 23:30:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:30:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.153024.0800.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (11) [E/LS]

Leeve Reinhard,

nu hevvt wi dennen tweeden Aprildag!

Du schreevst:

> Might we by any chance be dealing
> with that overactive imagination of yours?

Dit kunn ick meist ne glööven:
> Apples and pears seem to imply ordinariness or inferiority.  You get this
> for instance in _bakbeern-kraam_ or _bakberen-tuyg_ ("baking pear stuff" =
> "dried pear stuff") in reference to "(ordinary) stuff," derogatory
> reference
> to belongings; e.g., _Al syn bakberen-kraam ligt noch up d'n boen rüm_
> (<All
> sien Backbeernkraam liggt noch up'n Böön rüm.>) 'All is stuff is still
> lying
> about in the attic.'
Ick dach', wat Du mi nu all foot haar'st. Ick kenn düsse Snacks ne, man jüst
"...föör 'n Appel un' 'n Ei..', E: "very cheap".

Na- nu mutt ick mi woll tauköömstig jümmer 'no achtern ümdreihen', wenn ick
Di wat schriiven dau?

Spooss mutt ween!

Allerbest Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Reinhard, Lowlanners,

"one word a day":

yesterday I heard another interesting and still used LS-word:

*Weet*:
HG: '[halbnasses Heu, zum weiteren Trocknen im] ''Schwad''
E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'', ''row'' ???
(help needed, at this point!).

My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but in
LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] jäten', E: of course! 'to
weed'.
Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in the good old
sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.

I guess it to be remarkable- it could be Low-Saxon's nearly forgotten
connection to E: 'wet', and I don't know any HG-word even in the near.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 02:18:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:18:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.181809.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (03) [E]

On 02/04/2005, at 2:17 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Is it a
> coincidence that in many languages people refer to cuckoos when
> indicating
> that someone isn't "right in the head"?  In German, such a person has a
> "bird" (_Vogel_).
Aye and in my part of Scotland they'd say ''e went cookoo.'
>   Might all this have something to do with the cuckoo's odd
> behavior, including its habit of tricking other birds into raising its
> young?
>
Or could it be merely onomatopoeic, based on the noises a totally
mental patient can make ?
Interestingly enough while we play Peek a Boo, or Peep Boo, with kids I
discovered on the Trans Siberian Express that Russian kids peep out
saying 'Cuckoo'.
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hey, Tom!

> Or could it be merely onomatopoeic, based on the noises a totally
> mental patient can make ?

Well, yeah ... But how about both of the above?

> Interestingly enough while we play Peek a Boo, or Peep Boo, with kids I
> discovered on the Trans Siberian Express that Russian kids peep out
> saying 'Cuckoo'.

Yes, but that could be a German loan, based on _Kucku(k)!_, _Kuku(uk)_,
etc., which I take as being a "confluence" of making a suprising sound (cf.
English "(peek a) boo") with simultaneous reference to _gucken_ or _kucken_
'look' (cf. Low Saxon _kyken_ <kieken>, Dutch _kijken_, Afrikaans _kyk_, and
supposedly Old or Middle Flemish-derived _keek_ in Scots). The "cuckoo"
twist may well be an afterthought.

Incidentally, in Low Saxon, Missingsch and in Missingsch-based North German
dialects, the equivalent of "peek a boo!" is _mume (mume) ... kieks!_.  You
say the _mume_ part (with a low voice) while hidden and the _kieks_ part
(with a high voice) while (re)appearing. _Kyksen_ <kieksen> can be used to
mean 'to peek'.  I assume the _mume_ part is related to "mumming," German
_(ver)mummen_, etc., thus to "disguising."

Incidentally, Scots _gowk_ appears to be derived from Old Norse _gaukr_ or
_gjœkr_, attested no earlier  than the 14th century.  It seems to have
overlapped with _gawk_ and _gawkie_ in the sense of 'fool', though I assume
the latter is related to 'to gawk'.  Or are the two related?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 03:28:03 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:28:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Passing" 2005.04.02 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.192803.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Passing

To all List members who are practising Roman Catholics condolences on the
passing of Pope John Paul II, a man of peace and compassion.

 Ave atque vale!  Requiescat in pace!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 19:33:37 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:33:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.03 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.123337.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]

[...]

> Would rhyming "u" with "i" sound OK in the other
> Lowlands languages?
>
> Darrin

Hallo,

'Not-perfect' rhyming is generally accepted  [at least
in the Germanic languages] when the two rhyming sounds
have the same number [and kind] of distinctive
features, unless one.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 19:35:01 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:35:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Music" 2005.04.03 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.123501.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]

Ron posted several poems by Klaus Groth. I'd like to remark that some of
them are contained on Hannes Wader's album "Plattdeutsche Lieder", and that
"De Moel" is set to the tune of "Kelly, the boy from Killanne", while
"Hartleed" is sung to the tune of "The four Marys": "Last night there were
four Marys, tonight there'll be but three: there was Mary Seaton, and Mary
Beaton, and Mary Carmichael, and me."

Which brings me to something I have been wondering about for a while.

Now this is funny... I was going to say that I always thought that Tolkien's
Troll Song from the Fellowship of the Ring should be sung to the tune of
"The fox went out on a chilly night". So I just googled the first line in
order to quote the first verse or so... and found the following on
http://www.electricpenguin.com/blatherings/lotr/archives/00000047.html:

"Regarding tunes: Tolkien said that the tune he had in mind when writing
Sam's troll song (A troll sat alone on a seat of stone...) was The Fox (the
fox went out on a chilly night...) I always heard it to that tune before I
discovered that that was what he intended."

Oh well...

Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 19:36:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:36:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.03 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.123642.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.02 (02) [D/E]

> From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Sorry for the long absence, was in Italy with school (10 days long).
>
> Wij (in België) zijn op school net bezig met vergelijkende
> taalwetenschap,
> de Indo-Europese verwantschappen e.d., niet echt diepgaand dus voor mij
> niets nieuws, maar wel goed dat zo ook minder geïnteresseerde kinderen
> toch
> íéts leren over deze materie. Zo de stamboom, de 1ste Germaanse en de
> Hoogduitse klankverschuivingen en al.
> Eerlijk gezegd ben ik wel de enige van mijn klas wie dit onderwerp kan
> boeien, de rest wil dat het zo rap mogelijk voorbij is 8-)
> Dit is ook alleen voor sommige klassen, enkel in ASO en dan nog
> slechts in
> de klassen die genoeg tijd over hebben en geacht worden "het aan te
> kunnen" - de "slimmere" klassen om het cru te stellen.
> Maar dat Limburgs en Laag-Duits talen op zich zijn, en dat men in
> Oost-Nederland Laag-Duits spreekt, zo ver gaat men niet in onze lessen
> 8-)
>
> Diederik Masure

Interessant. Ikzelf heb dat tijdens mijn schooltijd mezelf uit boeken
aangeleerd..

Leren jullie wel iets over het Fries, bijvoorbeeld ? En dat dat ook in
Duitsland nog op enkele plekken wordt gesproken?

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 20:22:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:22:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.132254.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> You
say the _mume_ part (with a low voice) while hidden and the _kieks_ part
(with a high voice) while (re)appearing. _Kyksen_ <kieksen> can be used to
mean 'to peek'.  I assume the _mume_ part is related to "mumming," German
_(ver)mummen_, etc., thus to "disguising."<

The Sprach Bockhaus has
mumm = Schallwort mit halboffenem Mund: er wagt nicht mumm zu sagen. But
gives no origin.

SBH also gives the origin of mummen/mummeln/ die Mumme as being French.

Yet CT Onions in OED says the French may have borrowed it from the German
and quotes

MDu momme  Du mom = mask  MLG mummen = mask / disguise. But ends by saying
that the relative choronology is obscure!

OED also says its origins are the same as English : to keep mum about
something. And that your Mummenschanze gave us mumchance !

Eric Partridge seems to ignore any Germanic origins and leans towards the
idea of a mask being the original concept :see  OF momer   which perhaps
meant to grimace with astonishment or fear. And relates it to both Sp and
Port momo = a grimace  and the Fr Momo! = a cry of astonishment.

I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers", who
were also known as 'Guisers'!

Heather

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but
in
LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] jäten', E: of course! 'to
weed'.
Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in the good old
sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.

I guess it to be remarkable- it could be Low-Saxon's nearly forgotten
connection to E: 'wet', and I don't know any HG-word even in the near.<

Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    wæt...   which
is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr

So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten

Heather

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> ''Schwad'' E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'',
> ''row'' ???
(help needed, at this point!).<

Sorry for the 3 dribbles of information: it takes time to look these (very
interesting) things up

Schwad / Schwaden is in the Sprach Bockhaus as :    Reihe hingemähten oder
auf lange Zeilen geharkten Grases oder Getreides

>>From which we get English : swath (swathe   Northen English)    i.e. to cut
a swath through the grass

Fascinating!

Thanks

Heather

PS what's the Word of Today?

----------

From: Dirk Baack <baack at tu-harburg.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (09) [E/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> I guess the most likely North Saxon equivalent is _nar_ (<Narr>), which is
> also a German word.  The connected adjectives/adverbs are _narsch_
> (<narrsch>) and _närrisch_ respectively.  This expresses less insanity
> than
> foolishness or silliness.  The North Saxon adjective/adverb most likely to
> be used to hint at insanity would be _mal_ (<mall>, from French), but it,
> too, can be used to imply silliness.  (E.g., _Wees nich so mal!_ 'Don't be
> so silly!')  This can even be used inanimates, such as _mallen kraam_ or
> _mal tuyg_ ("stupid/silly stuff").  In that sense it transitions over to
> _dwatsch_ or _appel-dwatsch_ which, semantically originating in the idea
> of
> "contrary," tends more toward "non-sensical."  It too can be used with
> inanimate and animate objects; e.g., _(appel-)dwatschen kraam_ 'nonsense'
> and _(appel-)dwatschen keyrl_ 'silly, nonsense-talking guy'.
>
Just to complete this: Don't forget "Narnkraam", which is a quite common
noun, at least here (Loomst, between Bremerlee (Jonny Meibohn and
Hamborg (Ron)).

IMHO "mall" isn't used so often. Well, the Asterix translation uses
quite often words like "Mallbüdels", De sünd mall, de Römers" and so on.
But I don't hear "mall" so often in daily communication here.

Dirk

--
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Dirk Baack    elektronische Post: Dirk at baack-lamstedt.de |
+----------------------------------------------------------+

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (03) [E]

Tom McRae wrote:

> > Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> > (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.

How I wish my parents had known that before they named me Gabriele Erika
Kahn... making my initials "GEK"... or maybe they did? :-P

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (11) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:

> before ... Goes to show you ... But be warned, Jonny, and be afraid, be
very
> afraid! Sometime, sooner or later, when you least expect it, I'll get you,
> and I'll get you good, and then we'll see who laughs last and laughs best.
> Watch your back at all times! Oh, I'd be very, yerrry afraid if I were
you!
> (And the same goes for any possible smirking supporter of yours on the
cheap
> seats of the peanut gallery).

Who could you possibly be referring to? I'll have you know that I, for
example, absolutely cannot condone Jonny's respectless behaviour. Schaam di
wat, Aprilbohm! (Wish I had thought of it first, but Ron would never have
trusted me in the first place - discrimination, that is).

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Heather (above):

> Sorry for the 3 dribbles of information: it takes time to look these (very
> interesting) things up

Don't worry about it.  That's a small prize to pay for being in the presence
of an avid and capable fellow-etymologizer.

> I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers", who
> were also known as 'Guisers'!

I had hoped that "mummy" (Dutch _mummie_, German _Mumie_ etc.) was related
to it.  ("Wrapped up," see?)  But alas, this does not pan out.  In the case
of English it comes from Norman French _mumie_, which denotes a bitumenous
substance used for embalming, going back to Arabic موم� اء (قبورو) _mûmiyâ`
(qubûrû)_ '(sepulchral) bitumen'.  Ah, well ...
('Mummy' = 'preserved corps' is موم� اء _mûmiyâ`_ in Modern Arabic.)

In Low Saxon, _mummeln_ ~ _mümmeln_ means 'to mumble', 'to murmur;, cf.
German _murmeln_, Dutch _mompelen_, _murmuring_.  I assume this is a case of
either /r/ or /p/ assimilation to /m/, not one of actual relationship with
the afore-mentioned words.

But here's an interesting one: Low Saxon _mummel_ ~ _mümmel_ 'water-lily'.
What's that about?  (And Dutch _plomp_ for the same?)  Any relation with
_murmel_ < _marmel_ 'marble'?

About 'wet':


> Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    wæt...   which
> is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr
>
> So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten

If there were a German cognate of 'wet', I'd exprect *_wass_ or *_wess_.  I
assume that _waten_ 'to wade' is a Low Saxon loan (< _waten_ ~ _waden_), as
is _Watt_ (< _wat_); otherwise I'd expect *_wassen_ and *_Wass_.

Gabriele (above):

> How I wish my parents had known that before they named me Gabriele Erika
> Kahn... making my initials "GEK"... or maybe they did? :-P


Och, if they did, I'm sure they meant it in the best possible sense.  (What
choice did they have, poor things?)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 00:19:15 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:19:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.171915.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Beste Ron,

You are going on to make Your threat come true:

>> "Waar Dy elk dag, elk
>> minuut!"

You wrote:

> Don't worry about it.  That's a small prize to pay for being in the
> presence
> of an avid and capable fellow-etymologizer.

In what meaning did You use 'avid'? Avid for fame or just hungry and greedy?
I don't need any fame, I don't like it at the end, but I have been infected
to be hungry (in permanence)  by one enthusiastic, in a positiv sense
fanatizised, honorable and loveable "Saxonist". His name is R.F. Hahn!

To my etymological capability: there is nothing like that! It's just a
collector's passion, and I like to offer and to dicuss it with people of the
LL-kind. Included is, again, a man I have learned to see him "flip" out,
sometimes, very emotionally. But just and alone, when OUR jointed and common
Low-Saxon, with all its varieties, seems to be in whatever a danger.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for sharing all of that, Jonny.

I'm glad you added the "in a positiv sense" and "honorable and loveable"
bits, for you could have fooled me otherwise.  Well, yes, I resemble those
remarks.

> Included is, again, a man I have learned to see him "flip" out,
> sometimes, very emotionally.

I can't help it, un-Lowlandic though it may seem.  Must be my hot-blooded
Slavonic genes or family culture, or wherever some of my mysterious
ancestors hailed from.  (My brother once suggested origins farther east than
that, probably in an attempt to make sense of his even more Siberian looks.)
:-)

> To my etymological capability:

Actually, I was referring to our Heather's etymological passion and acumen.
However, I guess I might as well have meant you.  So, are you going to take
all those flatteries back now?

Hold Dy vuchtig (man nich altou vuchtig)!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 01:08:47 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:08:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.180847.0700.>

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S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology (E/Go/Tur) 2005.04.03


From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Dear Lowlanders,

My question probably involves a sheer coincidence, although I am curious
whether it might instead be an example of Germanic-Turkic linguistic
contact. Many of you have heard of the personality cult of the President of
Turkmenistan, Mr. Saparmurat Niiyazov, who insists on calling himself
"Turkmenbashi" or "Father of Turkmen", much as Kemal Ataturk in Turkey.

Niyazov has written two volumes of poetry and general observations with an
occasional wise instruction on life (_pace_ Chairman Mao), and has just
about chased away all other books in his country.

The name of the two-volume work is "Ruhnama", which is usually translated as
"Book of the Spirit". It strikes me that the Ostrogothic would have been
_Runa_ (sacred writing) and _ahma_ (spirit), thus "sacred writing of the
spirit". Also, we know that Goths and Tatars (speaking Turkic) mingled
extensively in the Crimea for many centuries.

Did Gothic lend any such vocabulary to Turkic, or is it sheer coincidence?
Do we have a Turcologist handy (hint! hint!) who can straighten this one out
for me?

Thanks!

Arthur

----------

From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Kukushka (Кукушка) is indeed the name of the cuckoo bird in Russian,
and I do think that the connection between the two is recognized by
native speakers.
Cheers!
-Ian

On 2-Apr-05, at 7:18 PM, Lowlands-L wrote:
>> Interestingly enough while we play Peek a Boo, or Peep Boo, with kids
>> I
>> discovered on the Trans Siberian Express that Russian kids peep out
>> saying 'Cuckoo'.
>
> Yes, but that could be a German loan, based on _Kucku(k)!_, _Kuku(uk)_,
> etc., which I take as being a "confluence" of making a suprising sound
> (cf.
> English "(peek a) boo") with simultaneous reference to _gucken_ or
> _kucken_
> 'look' (cf. Low Saxon _kyken_ <kieken>, Dutch _kijken_, Afrikaans
> _kyk_, and
> supposedly Old or Middle Flemish-derived _keek_ in Scots). The "cuckoo"
> twist may well be an afterthought.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Wow, Arthur! Talking about "avid etymologizer" ...

Gothic _runa_ appears to be general Germanic, related to English "rune,"
which is related to German _raunen_ 'to whisper', 'to speak in a low voice',
usually implying secretive communiction.  Hence, I understand "runic
writing" and "runic letters" to have originated as sacred and thus
privileged information, as information that was passed on secretly.

Turkmen (and other Turkic) _Ruhnama_ ~ _Ruhname_ is a compound noun
consisting of _ruh_ and _nama_ (not *_ruhn_+_ahma_).  In fact, it isn't
Turkic at all but is derived from Iranic (Persian): روح _rûh_ (< Arabic روح
_rûħ_) 'spirit', 'soul' + نامه _nâma_ ~ _nâme_ 'record', 'document',
'letter', 'book'.

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news.  I know it would have been nice.

> who insists on calling himself "Turkmenbashi" or "Father of Turkmen",

Actually, literally "Turkmen-Head."  Turkic _baš_ ("bash," written _baş_ in
Turkish and Azeri) means 'head' and in extension 'leader' (_Führer_) or
'chieftain'.   While perhaps rather presumptuous, _Türkmenbašı_  -- "Head
Turkmen" or "Turkmen Leader" or even "Head Turkmen" -- sounds a lot less
presumptuous than _Türkmenatası_ or *_Atatürkmen_ "Turkmen Father" would
sound.  Of course, this my "defense" is limited to the name.

Hello, Ian!  Congratulations on your speakers' corner debut and your
information!  Welcome at Lowlands-L.  It's great you joined us.

> Kukushka (Кукушка)

So I take it you think it's not a loan, is some sort of onopatopoetic
"universal."  Also, I take it кукушка _kukuška_ is the diminutive form of
*кукук *_kukuk_ (which may now be archaic or defunct).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 14:01:01 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:01:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.04 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.070101.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.01 (12) [E]

What a great recording!  It reminds me so much of my grandmother who was
born, raised, and lived her entire life in Tennessee.  She was born in 1898
which would have been about the time the speaker was born.  What a purty way
of talkin'!

Mark Brooks

***

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

Our own Michael Montgomery ( Distinguished Professor Emeritus of English and
Linguistics at the University of South Carolina) kindly sent me a sample
file of Smoky Mountain English for a dedicated web presentation he is
planning.

He writes this:

<quote>

Attached to the message forwarded below is a sound file that you might like
to post at the anniversary website. It contains a fine story recorded in
1939 by my coeditor for the _Dictionary of Smoky Mountain English_, Joseph
Sargent Hall. The sound quality is not the best, but is still quite good
considering the fact that it was recorded on aluminum disk two-thirds of a
century ago.  The speaker is Mr. Eugene Sutton of Cataloochee, North
Carolina (now within the Great Smoky Mountains National Park), who was 43
years old at the time of the recording.

</quote>

<quote>

Dear Folks

As promised a couple of days ago, I am sending you herewith attached one
sample excerpt from the Joseph Hall recordings. This is a brief anecdote
told by Eugene Sutton (age 43) of Cataloochee, North Carolina, about his
grandfather in 1939.

It's one of the best samples in the collection. You will need Media Player
to hear this file.For those interested in further information on materials
collected by Joseph Hall, you might be interested in knowing that all of his
personal copies have been deposited in the Archives of Appalachia at East
Tennessee State University. As you can discover from the detailed finding
aid at their website (go to cass.etsu.edu/ and from there), these include
not only recordings, but also a very large body of unpublished print
materials, much of which I used in the recently published _Dictionary of
Smoky Mountain English_. That work includes a good bit of biographical
information about his as well. With best wishes

Michael

</quote>

This is fantastic!

Anyway, he has given me permission to share this file with you.  I have
placed
it here (at least for the time being):
http://www.lowlands-l.net/treasures/Joseph_Sargent_Hall.wma

Enjoy!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 14:26:25 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:26:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.072625.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (06) [E]


Ron wrote in reply to Arthur Jones:
"Gothic _runa_ appears to be general Germanic, related to English "rune,"
which is related to German _raunen_ 'to whisper', 'to speak in a low voice',
usually implying secretive communiction. Hence, I understand "runic writing"
and "runic letters" to have originated as sacred and thus privileged
information, as information that was passed on secretly."

Irish has _rún_ for "secret" and thus _rúnaí_ for "secretary". I have always
noted the clear link with "rune", and suspected it to be a borrowing from
Old Norse, although exactly how I do not know. Most Norse borrowings in
Irish relate to the sea and maritime occupations, for obvious reasons.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Críostóir.  Isn't that interesting?

Is there any particular reason why you suspect it to be an Old Norse loan?
Could it not have reached Irish from Old English?

Old English, too, has _rún_ in the sense of 'secret', 'mystery' (earliest
attestation in the _Lindisfarn Gospel_ of 950), apparently not as a Norse
loan but as a native word with the assumedly secondary meanings 'mysterious
saying', 'confidential counsel', also 'runic letter', 'written language',
'song', 'cry', 'language variety'.  This developed into the now archaic word
_roun_ ~ _roune_ ~ _rowne_.  The word _rune_ in the specific sense of
'Nordic written character' came to be (re)introduced (supposedly from
Danish) in the 17th century with Nordic studies.  In more recent times, this
has been extended to scripts of similar (often astonishingly similar) look,
such as Old Hungarian (Székely-Magyar) and Old (Orkhon) Turkic runes, as
well as some non-runic scripts such as several discovered in Siberia and
North America.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:23:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:23:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2005.04.04 (03) [LS]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.142314.0700.>

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From: Helge Willkowei <helge.willkowei at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Events"

Moin leve Leeglanners,

ok dit Jahr weer maakt de "Studentenkring Plattdüütsk" in Griepswold
(Vörpommern) 'n Vördragsrieg'. Ik doch, dat dat viellicht de een of
anner gifft, de dat interesseren deit. Wenn well van jo vörbikieken
will, deen wi uns freien. Hier uns Pressmitdelen:

***
Vortragsreihe 2005: "Wat de jungen Lüd' in'n Kopp hebben."
Nachwuchsforschen im Niederdeutschen.

Wedder ‘ne Reig’ van plattdüütsche Vördräg’ in’e Staddbiblioteek van ‘n
Prillmaand af an

Bina ‘n heil Jor verläden, do füng dat an mit dei ierste Reig’ van
Vördräg’ œver dei plattdüütsche Sprak. Nu sall dat wieder gan, ümdat
Plattdüütsch ‘n Plaats mutt kriegen in unse Stadd, wat dat verdeinen
deit un wat dor nu bi helpen sall, all dei Börgers, un hier up’t vörnst
dei Plattsnackers sülven, ‘ne lude Stemm’ tau gäven. Dei Laag’ van’e
anner grote Sprak in Düütschland (un Nedderland), dei is œverleeg un
elennig. In’t Tiedsöller van dei Meedjen is Platt bina nich tau sein un
tau hüren nich. Un Ji weiten woll, dat allens, wat ein nich tau sein
kriegen deit in’t Kiekschapp or nich tau hüren is in’t Hürschapp, dat
dat - so dücht uns dat - gor nich dor is nich, keinein is bi, dor œver
tau snacken. Disse Sak is nich nieg’ nich, man sei ward na’e Kant
schaven, un dat ok van dei Plattsnackers sülven.
Dor willen wi gägenan gan un versoiken tau wiesen, wat dei Problemen
sünd mit’t Plattdüütsch. Dit Jor sœlen keine bekannten Wätenschoppslüd’
berichten nich, dit Mal snacken junge Lüd’, dei ‘n bäten sœlen purren,
œver Plattdüütsch natausinnen. Plaant sünd dei nakamen Vördräg’
(Beginneltied: Klock 18.00, Uurt: Kellerwelft in’e Staddbiblioteek):

1. 21.04.2005, Thorsten Filter (Griepswold, in Platt): „Olle Sprak,
niege Wüürd’.“ Niewüürd’ in’t Plattdüütsch? (Neologismen im
Niederdeutschen?).

2. 28.04.2005, Birte Arendt (Griepswold): „Disse Sprak, de is ok Heimat
för mi.“ Woans junge Lüd’ denken daun œver eer Plattdüütsch
(Spracheinstellungen der jüngeren Generation zu ihrem Platt).

3. 12.05.2005, Helge Willkowei (Griepswold): „Plattdütsk bi d’Arbeid.“
Sprakpläg’ bi junge Oostfreesen (Sprachpflege bei jungen Ostfriesen).

4. 26.05.2005, Enrico Lippmann (Darmstadt): „Mit quade Lüd’ ward nich
Platt snackt.“ Œver den verschälen Bruk van Platt (Zur situativen
Varianz beim Plattgebrauch).

5. 09.06.2005, Filmemoker GbR/Martin Hermann & Ralf Vielhauer
(Sulingen): „De Apparatspot.“ Filmwiesing’ un Klœnrund’ (Filmvorführung
und Diskussion).

6. 23.06.2005, Mikko Bentlin (Griepswold): „Plattdüütsch-finnsch
Sprakgewrangel.“ Plattdüütsche Wüürd’ in’t Finnsch (Niederdeutsches im
Finnischen).

7. 07.07.2005, Horst Giencke/Thorsten Filter (Griepswold):  „Schrieven
as de Snavel wussen is?“ Bruken wi faste Schrievrägels för Plattdüütsch?
(Brauchen wir Rechtschreibnormierungen im Niederdeutschen?)

So hebben wi nu Vördräg’ œver Sprakplaning’ un Sprakroik, œver Sprakbruk
un Sprakinstelling’. Plattdüütsche Länwüürd’ in’t Finnsch laten uns ‘n
bäten œver dei Kimm kieken. Dat „Raumschiff Enterprise“-Jökelstück „De
Apparatspott“, dei sall för’t ierste Mal wäsen warden in Griepswold. Un
bi’t End’ willen wi ‘ne heite Sak besnacken: ‘ne faste Noorm för ‘ne
plattdüütsche Rechtschrieving’. Wi willen nich allein ŒVER Plattdüütsch
snacken, man sülven ok IN Plattdüütsch räden, dorüm warden dit Mal ok ‘n
por Vördräg’ in Platt hollen, mit den iersten geit dat upstädens los.
Denn dei, wat willen, dat Platt mier sall bruukt warden, dei sullen dat
ok sülven wiesen, mannich?
Wi wullen uns bannig froigen wullen wi, wenn Ji van’n Prillmaand af an
wedder na’t Kellerwelft in’e Staddbiblioteek kamen deeden.

Thorsten Filter & Birte Arendt
Studierendeninitiative Plattdeutsch

***
Gröten!
-helge

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:24:28 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:24:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.142428.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.04 (01) [E]

It's amazing what we lose - and how few generations take us back so far. My
own gandmother died in 1960 and was born about 1880.  She always called a
funnel a "tundish", and coals in a fire didn't glow, they "got a gleed on".
She originated from the Leicestershire/Nottingham border area.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:26:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:26:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.04.04 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.142632.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.03.25 (02) [E]

> Hello Paul,

I'm sorry to have kept you waiting for an answer to your posting: I have
been away for a few days. I tried to contact you through your
stingray-address, but for some mysterious reason my message was refused. So
I am trying to reach you via Lowlands. Anyway, you can send your questions.
I am looking forward to helping you on the road to mastering the Dutch
language.

Kind regards,

Roger

> From: "Roger Hondshoven" <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.03.22 (01) [E
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> I would be quite happy to assist you in your endeavour to master the Dutch
> language. Just let me know how I might help you.
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger
>
> > From: Paul J.M. Sweet <stingray at terabolic.net>
> > Subject: Introduction
> >
> > Mar. 22, 2005
> >
> > I recently joined this list as I am about to embark on learning standard
> > Dutch
> > to get a reading knowledge of the language, and perhaps a writing one
too!
> > So
> > if any Dutch-speakers and -writers can help me practise and develop my
> Dutch
> > literacy it would be great.
> >
> > I'm also interested in the movement to preserve Low Saxon and its
> > development as
> > a standard written language. And this is the best place to watch
advances
> in
> > this as they occur, with so many speakers and writers of the language on
> > this
> > list closely monitoring, stimulating, and initiating these developments.
> >
> > Paul/P.J.M. Sweet

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.03.25 (02) [E]

Hello Paul,

I'm sorry to have kept you waiting for an answer to your posting: I have
been away for a few days. You can send your questions. I am looking forward
to helping you on the road to mastering the Dutch language.

Kind regards,

Roger

PS. For some mysterious reason my message was refused: below you can find
more details about this mishap. Hope it's going to work this time.
Kan het bericht niet verzenden omdat één van de geadresseerden door de
server is geweigerd. Het geweigerde e-mailadres is
stingray at terabolic.terabolic.com. Onderwerp 'Re: Your offer to help me learn
Dutch. Paul Sweet, Mar. 26, 2005', Account: 'in.telenet.be', Server:
'uit.telenet.be', Protocol: SMTP, Reactie van server: '450
<stingray at terabolic.terabolic.com>: Recipient address rejected: Domain not
found', Poort: 25, Beveiligd(SSL): Nee, Serverfout: 450, Foutnummer:
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:27:51 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:27:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.04 (06) [A/E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.142751.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]

Haai almal,

Darrin, die /ui/ na /ai/ verskuiwing is nie tipies in Afrikaans nie,
net 'n liederlike tendens hier op die Rand.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

>I don't think the old <ui> in Afrikaans is anywhere near extinct.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:32:20 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:32:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (07) [E]
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (04) [E]


Ron wrote:
"Is there any particular reason why you suspect it to be an Old Norse loan?
Could it not have reached Irish from Old English?"

Irish contact with the Vikings and their language was more frequent than
contact with speakers of Old English. When the Anglo-Normans invaded in
1169, they brought Norman French loans with them. There are a number of Old
English loans in Irish - immediately, _bácús_ 'bakery' springs to mind - but
they are few compared to Old Norse. Irish _rún_ may be one. I have an open
mind.

If it was an Old English loan I would expect it to be limited to the area of
the former Pale (roughly Dublin and as far north as south Louth), where Old
English appears to have been spoken most (Fingalian, a relation of Yola,
appears to represent its dying embers), yet _rún_ seems to be represented in
most Irish variants, leading me to suspect that Norse sea travel dispersed
it, or that it is a native Irish term that is only coincidentally identical
to Old English and Old Norse.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Hi all,
Tom Mc Rae said that Russian kids peep out saying 'Cuckoo'.
Interesting! I grew up saying exactly that (or rather koekoe!) and
think it relates to 'koekeloer'. Another word probably related is
'koewie!' for hello!
Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Hi all,

Ian Pollock referred to Kukushka and Ron remarked: I take it кукушка
_kukuška_ is
the diminutive form of *кукук *_kukuk_ (which may now be archaic or
defunct).

My maternal great-grandmother's maiden name was Kukuk but the name is not
typical amongst Afrikaner surnames.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Dear Heather, Dirk, Ron, Dirk, Tom & Gabriele

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

In Afrikaans 'vermom' = disguised. According to antique English practise
May & Christmas festivities were celebrated by performers in costume, called
'mummers' (& watch 'guise'; it comes up again, hey!
So also 'kyk' = look. Consider the Scots 'keek' meaning the same.

> You say the _mume_ part (with a low voice) while hidden and the _kieks_
part
> (with a high voice) while (re)appearing. _Kyksen_ <kieksen> can be used to
> mean 'to peek'.  I assume the _mume_ part is related to "mumming," German
> _(ver)mummen_, etc., thus to "disguising."

I therefore incline to the belief that this (the practice as well as the
terminology) has an ancient Teutonic, if not even Germanic origin.

> I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers", who
> were also known as 'Guisers'!

I hope we're talking about the same thing, but the Afrikaans 'onkruid' &
'kruie', meaning in the first place 'weeds' & in the second 'herbs'.
For English 'weed' I think the only Afrikaans near enough is 'weiding' =
'grazing' (the pasture).
Pardon me while I follow this trail: English 'wheat' used in OE to mean
'white' (it was the 'white' grain). Another word from that time is for those
birds called 'wheatears', which meant in OE 'white arse'. They don't eat
wheat, they don't have ears, they don't look like or like ears of corn, but
they do have a white rump, the only part of their body that is.
Afrikaans 'Wet' & 'weet' have a common origin, referring in the first case
to 'the Law' & in the second to 'what you know'. I think these are related
to the Modern (sort of) English 'wot' = know, as in, "A garden is a lovesome
thing, God wot." The related German is I believe 'weisse' = to know.

>My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but
in
> LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] jäten', E: of course! 'to
> weed'. Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in
> the good old sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.

I confess I don't see any connection between this & water in any Teutonic
tongue.
But I wish I could find a connection in the Taal for this!

> ''Schwad'' E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'',
''row'' ???

> Schwad / Schwaden is in the Sprach Bockhaus as :    Reihe hingemähten oder
> auf lange Zeilen geharkten Grases oder Getreides

> >From which we get English : swath (swathe   Northen English)    i.e. to
cut
> a swath through the grass

Hey Dirk & Tom & Gabriele.

Thanks for this. In Afrikaans we use 'nar',  'gek' & 'mal'. Usually the nar
is doing it deliberately, but the gek can't help himself, & the 'malle' is
lead away to a quiet place by people in white coats.

> > I guess the most likely North Saxon equivalent is _nar_ >

> > > Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> > > (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.
> > I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers",
who
> > were also known as 'Guisers'!

> I had hoped that "mummy" (Dutch _mummie_, German _Mumie_ etc.) was related
> to it.  ("Wrapped up," see?)  But alas, this does not pan out.  In the
case
> of English it comes from Norman French _mumie_, which denotes a bitumenous
> substance used for embalming, going back to Arabic موم  ء (قبورو) _mûmiyâ`
> (qubûrû)_ '(sepulchral) bitumen'.  Ah, well ...
> ('Mummy' = 'preserved corps' is موم  ء _mûmiyâ`_ in Modern Arabic.)

I know the History of 'mummy' & I thought it went back to Herodotus, but I
still disagree that it has any connection with English 'mummers' & 'mumming'
The Teutonic background *mumen* is just too substansial.

> In Low Saxon, _mummeln_ ~ _mümmeln_ means 'to mumble', 'to murmur'; cf.
> German _murmeln_, Dutch _mompelen_, _murmuring_.  I assume this is a case
of
> either /r/ or /p/ assimilation to /m/, not one of actual relationship with
> the afore-mentioned words.

I'm afraid I disagree with all I have read so far of Partridge. Water is
something else again, but my wife pointed this out for my deluctation, the
spooky similarity of the query 'what' with the element 'water' in so many
apparantly unrelated languages.

Watter? (which?) & water - Afrikaans,
Ma im? (what if?) & mayim - Hebrew.
A que? (wherefor?) & aqua - Spanish

> > Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    wæt...
which
> > is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr

All you etymologisers rule, OK!

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 14:29:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:29:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.072923.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]

Ingmar wrote: "first say [a] (like in Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish etc)
and then say [y](=Dutch/French <u>, German <ü>, Scandinavian <y>)."

I read somewhere a long time ago that the Dutch <ui> was a low front rounded
vowel moving to a high front rounded vowel.  It sounds like what you
described is a low back vowel to a high front rounded vowel.  Is what I read
before wrong?

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 14:33:08 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:33:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.04.05 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.073308.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Survival 2005.04.04 E/MN


From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com


Leeve Leeglanners,

Once in a while a truly touching piece of literature comes along. In this
case, I found it hard to classify as "literature", "language survival", or
"history". In our travels in the Crimea, we found that several Mennonite
associations were diligently trying to piece together where some of their
families had lived between 1800 and Stalin's ethnic cleansing of the
peninsula (among vast other regions). They are also trying to determine and
document the fate of many of those families.

We received through the Plautdietsch-L at listserv.linguistlist.org email
postings, the following short poem by Fritz Senn, entitled "Waut es daut
mett ons? Wie send soo vestreit""

Waut es daut mett ons? Wie send soo vestreit
Aus ne Kluck mett Tjitjel, tweschen dee de Hoftje jefoare,
Ons Voltj haft en Russlaunt jepleajcht en jeseit
Soo aun dee hundatfeftich Joare!
Doch aus koadel Marx enn Lenin tom Opproa jetjreit,
Worde onnerdreaglich de roode Boare.
Wan maun mau aun'e Gausseatj steit,
Sitt maun twee oole Bure derjche Menschemausse schloare,
En wan maun se frajcht, woo et ahn jeit,
Dan tjitje se wajch en tjrejche en kwoare.
Dee eena sajcht: 'En Russlaunt we daut nich meea jescheit,
Bloos em Staul ooda opp'em Bieschlach sette en Mochutje doare!'
Dee aundra: 'Etj hed latste Nacht em Droom mett Wintaweit
Belodne Ladawoages knoare!'
Dan schloare se wieda aulebeid,
Vebiestat enne Staut, tweschen Mensche en Koare,
Waut es daut mett ons? Wie send soo vestreit
Aus Tjena ut ewariepte Oare.
Wie send soo vestreit. En nuscht jedeit,
Komt! Klopp wie den ditjen Rost vonne Schoare
Waut halpt daut jaumre? Waut halpt daut Staumle,
Daut wie soo vestreit send? Roopt opp tom Saumle!

Vaenligast,

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 14:35:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:35:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.05 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.073526.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.04 (04) [E]


Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
"My own gandmother died in 1960 and was born about 1880. She always called a
funnel a "tundish", and coals in a fire didn't glow, they "got a gleed on".
She originated from the Leicestershire / Nottingham border area."

Thanks for those, Paul. Fascinating. Do you have any other snippets of
border lexicon? Whereabouts in particular did she live (village, town), if
you don't mind me asking?

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 15:23:12 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:23:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.082312.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (07) [E]


Elsie Zinsser wrote:
"I grew up saying exactly that (or rather koekoe!) and think it relates to
'koekeloer'. Another word probably related is 'koewie!' for hello!"

I think _koewie_ - if I understand the pronunciation - is possibly derived
from English _cooee_. Originally a call of recognition in one of the eastern
Australian indigenous languages, it was borrowed into Australian English
and, because of the British Army, soon became part of general imperial
slang*. It was still very current in the twentieth century in the south of
England but I reckon its decline began in the 1930s. Its appearance in South
Africa might be related to the Australian troop arrivals during the
Anglo-Boer War, or immigration from Australia and England.

*The term was used on British Army recruitment posters in Australia in the
early twentieth century - along the lines of "Coo-ee! Australians, will you
answer the call?"

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (07) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>> > > Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon
_gek_
> > > (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.<

OED re cuckoo

Cuckoo - The figurative sense  'fool' of the word 'cuckoo' is found in many
languages.   Superseded OE geac which though originally imitative, ceased
through normal phonetic development to suggest the bird' cry. It correlates
to OFris, OSax  gak  OHG gouh ( G gauch, itself superseded as the bird's
name by kuckcuck from the LG cf MDu cuccuc, Du koekoek)  ONorse gaukr ( see
GOWK)

Gowk + dialect for 'cuckoo' : fool or half-wit. << ON gaukr  OFris , OS gak
 OHG gouk ( in MHG fool G gauch)  <<< C Germanic ( exc gothic) *gaukaz of
imitative origin.

Per chance a BBC Radio 4 about words (Monday this week) mentioned 'Hunting
the gowk' and related gowk to the cuckoo You can hear the programme via
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/wordofmouth_20050401.shtml

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

You do indeed rock, all you etymologists, more and more following our
Heather's flag flying high. Nice to witness such fervor and ability!  If
Heather keeps this up she'll end up as our official etymological explorer
team director.  Wouldn't that be a feather in one's cap?

Elsie:

> I grew up saying exactly that (or rather koekoe!) and think it
> relates to 'koekeloer'.

You may be right.  In Low Saxon we have _kukeluren_ and _kunkeluren_ for 'to
lurk' (hence my suggestion to refer to list lurkers as _ku(n)kelurers_, also
to be spelled as _koe(n)keloerers_ for our Low Franconians).  I have a
feeling that the form with the /n/ came second, because _kukeln_ can mean
'to watch secretly'.  (The /-l-/ seems to suggest a frequentive case.)  I
take it this /kuuk-/ is related to /kiik-/ 'to look'.  (So, "to look many
time > all the time".)  The verb _luren_ (related to English 'to lure'?)
means 'to lie in ambush' > 'to watch and wait (in a hidden place)' > 'to
wait'.

Paul Finlow-Bates wrote under "Resources":

> My own gandmother died in 1960 and was born about
> 1880. She always called a funnel a "tundish", and coals
> in a fire didn't glow, they "got a gleed on".

These are very interesting.

I take it that _gleed_ is a cognate of German _Glut_, but it's umlauted, an
extension of the equivalent of "glow".  I assume it started with the Old
English verb /gloo-/ _glōwan_ (_glôwan_) 'to glow' developing into umlauted
/glöö-/ and extended _glœ^d_ (*_gloe^d_), which is in fact an Old English
word for 'blaze' or '(fire) glow'.  I would expect this to have developed
into Modern English _gleed_, which is preceise what Paul presented to us.

I was baffled re "tundish" at first.  The OED does list it (also the
alternative "tun-dish") and explains it as being composed of "tun" and
"dish".  Old and Middle English _tunne_ developed into "tonne" > "ton" in
most dialects.  It's earlier meaning may have been "barrel" or "keg."  A
"dish" (< _disc_) because as a flat or only slightly concave structure and
came also be used in the sense of 'sieve' or 'strainer', as in goldmining.
Apparently, "tundish" began in brewing.  The OED descries it as "a wooden
dish or shallow vessel with a tube at the bottom fitting into the bung-hole
of a tun or cask, forming a kind of funnel used in brewing," and it adds "In
mod. use, a broad, open container with one or more holes in the bottom, used
in various industrial processes, e.g. to feed molten metal into an ingot
mould so as to avoid splashing and give a smoother flow."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 22:28:53 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:28:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.05 (05) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.152853.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.05 (03) [E]


Críostóir,
Unfortunately I don't remember very much, I was only 7 when I last saw her,
when our family moved to New Zealand.  I think she was from the
Ratcliff-on-Soar or Gotham area way back, but moved to Leicester when quite
young.  But she always used the Nottinghamshire pronunciation of "buzz" for
bus, and a chimney was always a "chimley".  Neither usage seems common in
Nottingham these days, though her other habit of pronouncing words like old,
cold, bold etc. as "ode", "code" and "bode" persists here even among young
people.  She never used the Northern clipped definite article ("Trouble at
t'mill"), which in Nottinghamshire only seems to appear around Mansfield,
well north of Nottingham city.

Paul

----------

From: From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.03 (03) [D]


>Interessant. Ikzelf heb dat tijdens mijn schooltijd mezelf uit
>boeken
>aangeleerd..
>
>Leren jullie wel iets over het Fries, bijvoorbeeld ? En dat dat ook
>in
>Duitsland nog op enkele plekken wordt gesproken?
>
>Mei freonlike groetnis,
>
>Henno Brandsma

We leren dat het Fries bestaat, als kleine taal in het Noorden van
Nederland, dat is het zowat.
Over de Duitse Friezen weet ik alleen iets uit boeken.
Een lerares Geschiedenis in het 3de dorst zelfs eens beweren dat de Friezen
niet Indo-Europees waren maar verwant aan de Finnen!

Diederik Masure

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 22:55:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:55:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology " 2005.04.05 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.155529.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (01) [E]

Well, [a]+[y] is an easy way to explain how foreigners can learn to say
<ui>, in stead of ooy, oo-ee, aye, ow, oy etc.
Actually it's the modern pronunciation of <ui> in the Netherlands, especi-
ally in de Randstad.
A more classical way to pronounce <ui> is [ö]+[y], maybe that is closer to
what you read.
In the East -with LS accent - and in many South Eastern pronunciations
(South-Gelderland/East Brabant/Limburg) we can hear [öj] or even [øj] -
which in Standard Dutch would be spelled as <eu>.
In many cities, e.g The Hague & Amsterdam, as well as in Belgium Brabant
and Dutch Brabant <ui> =>[ö:]

Ingmar

>From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]
>
>Ingmar wrote: "first say [a] (like in Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish etc)
>and then say [y](=Dutch/French <u>, German <ü>, Scandinavian <y>)."
>
>I read somewhere a long time ago that the Dutch <ui> was a low front
rounded
>vowel moving to a high front rounded vowel.  It sounds like what you
>described is a low back vowel to a high front rounded vowel.  Is what I
read
>before wrong?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 23:03:35 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:03:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology " 2005.04.05 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.160335.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

    I grew up saying exactly that (or rather koekoe!) and think it
    relates to 'koekeloer'.


  You may be right. In Low Saxon we have _kukeluren_ and _kunkeluren_ for
'to
  lurk' (hence my suggestion to refer to list lurkers as _ku(n)kelurers_,
also
  to be spelled as _koe(n)keloerers_ for our Low Franconians). I have a
  feeling that the form with the /n/ came second, because _kukeln_ can mean
  'to watch secretly'. (The /-l-/ seems to suggest a frequentive case.) I
  take it this /kuuk-/ is related to /kiik-/ 'to look'. (So, "to look many
  time > all the time".) The verb _luren_ (related to English 'to lure'?)
  means 'to lie in ambush' > 'to watch and wait (in a hidden place)' > 'to
  wait'.
About "to lure", I dunno, but "to lurk" is certainly derived from this root.
West Frisian has "loere", Dutch "loeren" (where the Dutch form has preserved
its "oe" instead of transforming it to "luren". Dutch has "koekeloeren" as
well.
The oe is probably based on varieties that still have the [u]-sound (as WF
and LS);
I think also the [u]-sound better fitted the emotional connotations). Dutch
"gluren"
is probably the same word, from "geluren" maybe, with historically correct
[y]-sound.


  Paul Finlow-Bates wrote under "Resources":


    My own gandmother died in 1960 and was born about
    1880. She always called a funnel a "tundish", and coals
    in a fire didn't glow, they "got a gleed on".


  These are very interesting.

  I take it that _gleed_ is a cognate of German _Glut_, but it's umlauted,
an
  extension of the equivalent of "glow". I assume it started with the Old
  English verb /gloo-/ _glowan_ (_glôwan_) 'to glow' developing into
umlauted
  /glöö-/ and extended _glœ^d_ (*_gloe^d_), which is in fact an Old English
  word for 'blaze' or '(fire) glow'. I would expect this to have developed
  into Modern English _gleed_, which is preceise what Paul presented to us.
Old Frisian had "gleed" as well, from *glôdi in Old Germanic.
Modern West Frisian only has "gloed(e)" [glu. at d(@)].
Saterlandic Frisian has "gloud", but North Frisian (mainland, at least)
has umlauted forms: Wiedingharde: gläid, Mooring: glädj, both from *gleed.
The verb (to glow) in Old Frisian was mostly "glia" (to glow), which gave
a.o. WF glier (A),
and derived "gleon" (< *gljeand < *gliand): 'piping hot', which also exists
in
NF gliinj (Mooring and Wiedingharde, also from *gliand). The modern verbs
NF gloie, SF gloie, gluuje and WF gloeie are related to Dutch gloeien, LS
"gluien"
(in Dutch spelling), where the Frisian forms might be old loans, as they do
not show
umlaut at all.


  Regards,
  Reinhard/Ron
Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]

Hi all,
Thanks, Críostóir, this is very interesting and most likely.
Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
I think _koewie_ - if I understand the pronunciation - is possibly derived
from English _cooee_. Originally a call of recognition in one of the eastern
Australian indigenous languages, it was borrowed into Australian English
and, because of the British Army, soon became part of general imperial
slang*.

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> If Heather keeps this up she'll end up as our official etymological
explorer team director.<

But only for as long as I am recovering from a bad dose of 'flu and can
just about sit at the computer , read mails, lean back and pick the
relevant books from the shelves behind me.

Once work starts up again in earnest, there may be longer pauses
inbetween!!!!!

Heather

----------

From: David Pinto <david_e_pinto at yahoo.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]


Cooee figures prominently in one of the stories of Sherlock Holmes.

Elsie Zinsser wrote:
...  Another word probably related is 'koewie!' for hello!"

I think _koewie_ - if I understand the pronunciation - is possibly
derived
from English _cooee_. Originally a call of recognition in one of the
eastern
Australian indigenous languages, it was borrowed into Australian
English
and, because of the British Army, soon became part of general imperial
slang*. It was still very current in the twentieth century in the south
of
England but I reckon its decline began in the 1930s. Its appearance in
South
Africa might be related to the Australian troop arrivals during the
Anglo-Boer War, or immigration from Australia and England.

*The term was used on British Army recruitment posters in Australia in
the early twentieth century - along the lines of "Coo-ee! Australians, will
you answer the call?"

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]


They still hold annual Cooee competitions in Australia.  Properly executed,
a good "Cooee" can exceed 110 decibels.  The sound probably immitates the
Whip-bird, which has a very loud, penetrating call.

Paul

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 23:05:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:05:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.04.05 (08) [D]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.160524.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.29 (02) [E]

Hallo naamgenoot,

In East-Brabant (more specifically in the dialects called 'Getelands',
spoken in a region roughly defined by the Grote Gete and the Kleine Gete) we
use similar pronominal forms for the 3rd person singular. Examples: heë
werkt, heë deu "hij doet". In constructions with inversion we say e.g.
makt-er "maakt hij", gee-t-er mei "gaat hij mee".
The form heë is possibly derived from *her, which would be a compromise
between hî and er (Old High German ër). In easterly Middle Dutch 'he' was
somtimes used instead of the more common 'hî' (cfr. A. Van Loey,
Middelnederlands Sraakkunst I. Vormleer, § 41,b).
The enclitical -er goes back to *her too. This point of view is corroborated
by the fact that the verbal ending -t is not changed to -d- due to the fact
that the h- of heë (her), although eliminated now, has prevented the
application of the rules of "sandhi" (assimilation of voice). Compare with
constructions for the 2nd person singular: komd-er mei "komt ge mee",
werkd-er "werkt ge" . This -er developed from *ir (Old High German îr -
German ihr). Assimilation clearly worked in this case as it was not hampered
by the presence of an h-. Compare further: kumt-er (u as in Dutch dus) "komt
hij", werkt-er "werkt hij". In the inversion form kumt-er the final -t was
retained as opposed to the non-inversion form, where it is left out : heë
kum "hij komt".
All the above remarks do not apply to dialect of Tienen, which uses clearly
more Brabantish forms: ea "hij" (unemphatically: en) werkt, doet, go(t)
"gaat", enclitically -em: e.g. werkd-em "werkt hij", god-em "gaat hij".
Compare with 2nd person sg. constructions: werkt ge, goche (<*got ge) "gaat
ge".

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven
>
> From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Why does inversion often have a so a significant effect on the "verb -
> personal pronoun" combination, as if it were subjected to special rules?
>
> In my West-Limburgish e.g. we replace "hië" (he) with "er" when inverting.
>
> Hië és doeë gewès (He has been there)
> Es-t-er doë gewès? (Has he been there?)
>
> For the second pronoun we have a contraction:
>
> Dzjië zit doeë gewès (You have been there)
> Zie (quite long ie) doeë gewès? (Have you been there?)
>
> Curiously in West Flemish they repeat the Flemish "je" with the Brabantish
> "gie":
> "Ejje gie da noadig?" (Do you need [to know] that?)
> (cf ./ text below pasted from the "Westvlams" list.)
> LES WESTVLAAMS
> Zoon: "Moedre, oe skrievje tetten?"
> Waarop moeder: "Emoa joengne, wuk ne parlee;
> Woa voarn ejje gie da noadig?"
> Zoon: "Voar in mien ipstel van 't schole, kwille skrievn:
> Voadre ee nen nieuwn trekteur gekocht en tetten nog niemand gezien".
>
> Does inversion generally have similar effects in lowland languages?
>
> Regards,
> Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 23:06:43 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:06:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.160643.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (01) [E]

Hello Mark,

You were absolutely right when you stated that the ui-diphthong in general
Dutch starts with "a low front rounded  vowel moving to a high front rounded
vowel." The first element sounds like the vowel  in French 'soeur, seul'.
Together with the second element it sounds like French 'seuil'.

Roger Hondshoven

> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]
>
> Ingmar wrote: "first say [a] (like in Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish etc)
> and then say [y](=Dutch/French <u>, German <ü>, Scandinavian <y>)."
>
> I read somewhere a long time ago that the Dutch <ui> was a low front
rounded
> vowel moving to a high front rounded vowel.  It sounds like what you
> described is a low back vowel to a high front rounded vowel.  Is what I
read
> before wrong?
>
> Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 14:20:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:20:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.072021.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (09) [E]

It sounds to me almost like Norwegian Au.

----------

From: rudi <rudi at its.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.04 (06) [A/E]

Subject: Phonology, Afr /ui/ to /ai/

Elsie and Ingmar (and others) contributed on this topic.

In my limited experience, there was (or maybe even still is in some social
circles),  the tendency for Afr /ui/ to be pronounced as /y/.
Buite would become byte, huis => hys etc. This was by and large regarded as
either laziness or just "poor breeding/education".  Could /ui/ to /ai/  not
be interpreted as  an  over correction or perhaps even an affectation in an
attempt to sound  correct/educated? What say the clever people?

Cheers
Rudi Vari

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 14:29:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:29:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.06 (02) [D/E/F]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.072942.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Dear Lowlanders,

Below please find for your attention another message I received from the
Frisian Action Group Te Mâl.

One might suggest including German versions of these messages, since Germany
is the other country with indigenous Frisian populations and North Germans
are among the few populations outside the Netherlands that even know what
the word "Frisian" means.

By the latest news on the Frisian and other fronts I am tempted to conclude
that things are slipping in the Netherlands, that there has been regress
rather than progress lately, which goes to show you that becoming complacent
is not the best option, especially where there is a powerful organization in
place that is hostile to linguistic diversity.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From: Te Mâl <aksjetemal at yahoo.de>
Subject: Frisian education


Beste mensen,
Actiegroep Te Mâl is woedend vanwege een recent gesloten convenant tussen
Provinciale Staten van Friesland en de Nederlandse regering. Daarin staan
afspraken die indruisen tegen de onlangs geuite wens van PS van Friesland om
de gelijkwaardigheid van het Fries en Nederlands op de basisschool te
handhaven. Wij hebben onze verontwaardiging geuit in een brief aan PS van
Friesland. U vindt de brief en persberichten in het Fries en Nederlands op
onze site www.temal.tk.

Dear people,
Our action group Te Mâl is furious about a recent agreement between the
provincial government of Frisia and the Netherlands' government. The
agreement ignores the wish of the Frisian parliament to maintain equality of
Frisian and Dutch in primary education. We have formulated our anger in a
letter to the Frisian parliament. You can find the letter and press releases
in Frisian and Dutch on our site www.temal.tk.

Bêste minsken,
Us aksjegroep Te Mâl is poerlilk om in okkerdeis sletten konvenant tusken
Provinsjale Steaten fan Fryslân en it Nederlânske regear. Dêryn wurde saken
ôfpraat dy't net yn 't lyk binne mei de winsk fan PS fan Fryslân om Frysk en
Hollânsk op 'e basisskoalle lykweardich te hâlden. Wy ha ús lilkens op
papier set yn in brief oan PS. Jim fine it brief en parseberjocht yn it
Frysk en Hollânsk op ús site www.temal.tk.

Ut namme fan de aksjegroep Te Mâl,
Elbrecht Claus

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 17:33:10 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:33:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.103310.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Dear Lowlanners, Heather:

one word more to LS: "Weet" v/s E: "wet":

> Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    wæt...   which
> is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr
>
> So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten
>
> Heather

Well- indeed there exists another, but very special word tight to E: 'wet'
in our LS-dialect: "Wettern" (same way used in High German), meaning
something like  D:"Gracht", E: "canal".
In the times of Middel-Low-Saxon it was called "Wetering", but I always
supposed it to be a Dutch loan.
Something like that used in the Netherlandic languages?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 18:03:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:03:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.110329.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (01) [E]

Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
<a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ü.
Btw: I think that Old Norse <au> had already that <ui> sound too, because
otherwise Danish/Norwegian <ø> and Swedish <ö> would not have developped
from it, but it would have been long <o> in stead, like in Dutch and Low
Saxon. Second: Icelandic <au> has the same sound as Dutch <ui> or Norw.
<au> too.

Rudi, about the difference between Afr. <y>/<ei> and <ui>... I often saw
Afrikaans <y> and <ei> transcribed phonetically as [@j], schwa + j.
In Dutch ears that would resemble <ui> a lot, because D. ij/ei = [Ej].
So what is the Afr. pronunciation of y/ei and what is its difference with
ui?

Ingmar

>From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (09) [E]
>
>It sounds to me almost like Norwegian Au.

>From: rudi <rudi at its.co.za>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.04 (06) [A/E]
>
>Subject: Phonology, Afr /ui/ to /ai/
>
>Elsie and Ingmar (and others) contributed on this topic.
>
>In my limited experience, there was (or maybe even still is in some social
>circles),  the tendency for Afr /ui/ to be pronounced as /y/.
>Buite would become byte, huis => hys etc. This was by and large regarded
as
>either laziness or just "poor breeding/education".  Could /ui/ to /ai/
not
>be interpreted as  an  over correction or perhaps even an affectation in
an
>attempt to sound  correct/educated? What say the clever people?
>
>Cheers
>Rudi Vari

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ben:

> >It sounds to me almost like Norwegian Au.

Ingmar (above):

> Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
> <a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ü.

I think Ben's "almost" is quite warranted.  "Not quite" may be another one
here.

In most Norwegian (and Swedish) dialects, /u/ is not pronounced quite like
"Dutch/French <u>, or German ü," i.e., like [y] and [Y], not like [u] and
[U] either, but is an in-between, "medial" version -- neither back nor
front.  In IPA script it is written as an "u" with a bar through it, in
SAMPA as [}]. This applies to the glide in /au/ as well.  Furthermore, the
/a/ in /au/ is pronounced as [æ] (digraph "ae") in IPA and as [{] in SAMPA,
thus [{}] for the diphthong in SAMPA (looking rather weird).  I think this
"u" sound in Norwegian and Swedish sounds closest to "ü" to speakers of
other Germanic languages, hence the "slight misperception."

The "conservative" pronunciation of Dutch <ui> tends to be described in IPA
as [œ] (digraph "oe") followed by an upside-down "h," which denotes the
glide equivalent of [y].  In SAMPA it tends to be written [9y].  In the
"newer" pronunciation, which unrounds the vowel an lowers the glide, I
suggest writing [æ] followed by a small capital "y", in SAMPA [{Y].

So, in this latter pronunciation, the vowel does indeed sound like the one
in Norwegian <au>, but the glide is not medial and tense but back and lax.

Conservative Afrikaans <ui> tends to be described the same as conservative
Dutch <ui>.  From what I have heard, the newer Afrikaans versions range
somewhere between the newer Dutch one and what in IPA is schwa followed by a
small capital "y", in SAMPA [@Y], with extension to total unrounding, this
involving the glide that in IPA is a small capital "i" and in SAMPA [I].  It
sounds closest to what in Afrikaans are written <y> and <ei> and may end up
identical if the trend persists and speakers *perceive* them as identical.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 20:42:13 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:42:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.134213.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (01) [E]

Hi all,

I doubt that my four year old son is concerned with sounding affected or
educated
when saying [bait@] instead of [b at it@] :)

I have read that this is an English-language influence, and which apparently
started
in Pretoria at Afrikaans Hoër Meisieskool by an English speaking teacher.

It was originally probably an attempt to over-compensate but is now quite
predominant
on the Rand amongst Afrikaans speakers within the age groups 10-30.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
>Could /ui/ to /ai/  not be interpreted as  an  over correction or perhaps
>even an affectation in an
attempt to sound  correct/educated? What say the clever people?

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.03 (01) [E]

An example of Dutch Low Saxon where <ö> rhymes with <e> is found in the
third part of the song "Bernd van Kuyperiy" of the popular Achterhoeks
band Boh Foi Toch :

in et voerjaor gao'w dan langs den ES
wiy lopet daor samen hand in hand
en biy de bekke in et GRöS
vleget unse lyve in de brand
de kalvere stuvet haost doer den draod
de kyften raert hoog an de locht
ik wette met miy selv gin raod
ik heb so lang hyr nao esocht
ik kryge van ou jao neet genoch
nee noyt genoch

(I transcribed it in ANS)

So <es> (a kind of agr. field) and <grös> grass are rhyming here.

I'll give you the first two parts of the song too:

Goyendag myn dern bün iy noch vriy
myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
Ik heb 'ne moye burderiy
den's ok van ou a'y trout met miy
ik heb good melk up al myne grund
der is voer twe platse sat
'k heb vyftig beeste en een hund
myn va en mo woont ampart
a'y biy myn komt
geev ik myn lyf, geev ik myn hart

Ik sag ou aover straote gaon
iy kwamen kort an miy voerbiy
Mag ik wel evkes biy ou staon
myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
Ik heb ou hyr noch noyt eseen
iy komt hyr sekers neet vandan
Ik voele miy mangs so alleen
gin derntjen wög et met miy an
Ik do voer ou, a'y biy miy komt
al wat ik kan

In et voerjaor gao'w dan ... etc

***

The dialect is Western Achterhoek Low Saxon, as one may see with a lot of
schwa-deletion already - like neighboring Low Franconian and Dutch, and
using sec. pers. pronouns <iy/ou> in stead of more Eastern <dou/diy>,
again as in Dutch <jij/jou> and Low Franc. <giy/ou>.

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]
>
>[...]
>
>> Would rhyming "u" with "i" sound OK in the other
>> Lowlands languages?
>>
>> Darrin
>
>Hallo,
>
>'Not-perfect' rhyming is generally accepted  [at least
>in the Germanic languages] when the two rhyming sounds
>have the same number [and kind] of distinctive
>features, unless one.
>
>vr.gr.
>Theo Homan

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (04) [E]

Well, Ron, what I was actually asking about was the pronunciation of Afr.
<y> / <ei>,which I've seen being described as [@i], so with a schwa as
first element.
Maybe someone else, esp. a native Afrikaans speaker, can tell us more
about that?

Baie dankie!

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

PS: I know 'baie' is from Malay 'banya' much, many, a lot. Are there more
common Malay/Javanese/Indonesian/Malagassy loans in Afr.?
In Dutch we have some common ones like 'piekeren' to think/to worry
(originally from Arabic 'fikir' of course), 'soebatten' to quarrel, 'tabé'
farewell, 'tahoe' tofu (<Chinese?), 'toko' shop (<Chinese?) etc

Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Phonology
>
>Ben:
>
>> >It sounds to me almost like Norwegian Au.
>
>Ingmar (above):
>
>> Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
>> <a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ü.
>
>I think Ben's "almost" is quite warranted.  "Not quite" may be another one
>here.
>
>In most Norwegian (and Swedish) dialects, /u/ is not pronounced quite like
>"Dutch/French <u>, or German ü," i.e., like [y] and [Y], not like [u] and
>[U] either, but is an in-between, "medial" version -- neither back nor
>front.  In IPA script it is written as an "u" with a bar through it, in
>SAMPA as [}]. This applies to the glide in /au/ as well.  Furthermore, the
>/a/ in /au/ is pronounced as [æ] (digraph "ae") in IPA and as [{] in
SAMPA,
>thus [{}] for the diphthong in SAMPA (looking rather weird).  I think this
>"u" sound in Norwegian and Swedish sounds closest to "ü" to speakers of
>other Germanic languages, hence the "slight misperception."
>
>The "conservative" pronunciation of Dutch <ui> tends to be described in
IPA
>as [œ] (digraph "oe") followed by an upside-down "h," which denotes the
>glide equivalent of [y].  In SAMPA it tends to be written [9y].  In the
>"newer" pronunciation, which unrounds the vowel an lowers the glide, I
>suggest writing [æ] followed by a small capital "y", in SAMPA [{Y].
>
>So, in this latter pronunciation, the vowel does indeed sound like the one
>in Norwegian <au>, but the glide is not medial and tense but back and lax.
>
>Conservative Afrikaans <ui> tends to be described the same as conservative
>Dutch <ui>.  From what I have heard, the newer Afrikaans versions range
>somewhere between the newer Dutch one and what in IPA is schwa followed
by a
>small capital "y", in SAMPA [@Y], with extension to total unrounding, this
>involving the glide that in IPA is a small capital "i" and in SAMPA [I].
It
>sounds closest to what in Afrikaans are written <y> and <ei> and may end
up
>identical if the trend persists and speakers *perceive* them as identical.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar (above):

> Well, Ron, what I was actually asking about was the pronunciation of Afr.
> <y> / <ei>,which I've seen being described as [@i], so with a schwa as
> first element.

That's how it may have started.  I was merely responding to what you wrote,
irrespective of the initial inquiry:

>> Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
>> <a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ü.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 20:47:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:47:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.134719.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (04) [E]

PS: I know 'baie' is from Malay 'banya' much, many, a lot. Are there more
common Malay/Javanese/Indonesian/Malagassy loans in Afr.?
In Dutch we have some common ones like 'piekeren' to think/to worry
(originally from Arabic 'fikir' of course), 'soebatten' to quarrel, 'tabé'
farewell, 'tahoe' tofu (<Chinese?), 'toko' shop (<Chinese?) etc

Ingmar

----------

From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (03) [E]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]
>
> Dear Lowlanners, Heather:
>
> one word more to LS: "Weet" v/s E: "wet":
>
>> Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    wæt...
>> which
>> is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr
>>
>> So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten
>>
>> Heather
>
> Well- indeed there exists another, but very special word tight to E:
> 'wet'
> in our LS-dialect: "Wettern" (same way used in High German), meaning
> something like  D:"Gracht", E: "canal".
> In the times of Middel-Low-Saxon it was called "Wetering", but I always
> supposed it to be a Dutch loan.
> Something like that used in the Netherlandic languages?
>
> Greutens/sincerely
>
> Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

"Wetering" is indeed a Dutch word, and "wjittering" in West Frisian.
This suggests that the e: is old, and maybe an ablaut variant of
"water" (WF wetter) or an old Ingvaeonic form, with e < a.

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (03) [E]

Hello Heather, Johnny
Yes indeed the word wetering is still in use in Dutch. It is a drainage
ditch, but bigger than a "sloot" ( little ditch )that drains water from
our polders. You will also find the name in several place names like
Weteringen in Overijsel en street names like Weteringschans in
Amsterdam. Jacqueline

---------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (03) [E]


From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Lieve Leeglanners,

Jonny Meibohm has brought a really interesting and nearly-archaic usage into
the picture. It was my understanding that _wetering_, as in the Amsterdam
_weteringsschans_ was originally a gracht, indeed, but one specifically
designed for irrigation rather than transportation or sheer drainage. We
would need to see the 11th Century engineers' original plans.

I dunno. The farther back in time we delve over "water rights", the more we
see uncanny similarities between Proto-Indo-European words and Semitic,
perhaps even Nostratic origins. Some argue that all aquatic words derive
from the "glug" sound in the Kehl performed in drinking.

Met groeten,

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 23:57:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:57:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.165742.0700.>

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From: David Pinto <david_e_pinto at yahoo.ca>
Subject: More on cooee


113,000 hits on Google, including...

Word of the Day: Thursday 30 September  2004  Cooee
      Kel Richards writes:

      Cooee is (or was originally) a call used to attract attention in the
bush. Used as such the first syllable is drawn out, and the second syllable
rises rapidly in pitch. Its of Aboriginal origin, coming from the Dharruk
people who lived in the west of what is now Sydney. Its first recorded in
1790 in Governor Hunter’s journal. Because of the peculiar carrying quality
of this call it was adopted by white settlers for the same purpose –
attracting attention in the bush (sometimes over considerable distances).
There have been other uses that have developed from this. So in the First
Word War there was the idea of a cooee that was calling young Australian men
to battle, and a recruiting march from rural New South Wales to Sydney was
called “The Cooee March”. And because cooee works, as a call, over distance
it can become a reference to distance, as in the expression “within cooee” –
meaning within hailing distance. And in Queensland there is a place called
Cooee Bay (not far from Yeppoon) where they have an annual “Cooee Calling
Contest” – in which winners are judged on the loudness of their cooee and
how long they can maintain the call. (The record is in excess of 20
seconds.)


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 14:59:56 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:59:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.075956.0700.>

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From: 1handclapping <1handclapping at myway.com>
Subject: LL-L

This is simply what happens to minority languages all over the world - the
same will happen in the EU with all languages
- if you begin a studying career now and you want to obtain a master degree
on a "top" university - you will have to learn English
which is a de facto devaluation of all -even major languages-
In principle the EU converses with its citiizens in any of the 20 official
languages -
in practice you can forget it if you are unable to use english.

If minority language speakers want to take action to preserve their language
they should support the idea of "Esperanto" as a 2nd language for everyone..

[Roger Verhiest]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 15:01:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:01:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.080154.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Resources

As to a mailing, dated March 31, I received this Tuesday, new volumes of the
WLD (Dictionary of Limburgish dialects) are no longer published by "Van
Gorcum" in "Assen", Nl, but by:

Gopher
Neutronstraat 7-14, 9743 AM Groningen
Postbus 70080, 9704 AB Groningen-Nl
Tel. +31-50-365 72 72
Fax +31-50-365 72 73
www;gopher.nl
info at gopher.nl

It was also announced that four new volumes are immediately available at
this house:

Woordenboek van de Limburgse Dialecten
Deel III - 1.1: Het menselijk lichaam
Auteur: R. Keulen
Bladzijden: 302
ISBN: 9051792034
Verkoopprijs: EUR 25.50 (excl. verzend- en verpakkingskosten)

Woordenboek van de Limburgse Dialecten
Deel III - 1.2: Beweging en gezondheid
Auteur: R. Keulen
Bladzijden: 434
ISBN: 9051792077
Verkoopprijs: EUR 30.00 (excl. verzend- en verpakkingskosten)

Woordenboek van de Limburgse Dialecten
Deel III - 2.3: Eten en drinken
Auteur: drs. H. van de Wijngaard
Bladzijden: 444
ISBN: 9051792018
Verkoopprijs: EUR 32.50 (excl. verzend- en verpakkingskosten)

Woordenboek van de Limburgse Dialecten
Deel III - 4.4: De wereld
Auteur: dr. J. Kruijsen
Bladzijden: 450
ISBN: 9051791925
Verkoopprijs: EUR 32.50 (excl. verzend- en verpakkingskosten)

Just fyi,
Regards,
Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 16:17:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:17:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.091726.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology " 2005.04.05 (07) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Originally a call of recognition in one of the eastern
Australian indigenous languages, it was borrowed into Australian English
and, because of the British Army, soon became part of general imperial
slang*.
<

OED has that cooee  = call used as a long distance signal by Australian
Aborigines 19th century and that  'cow-ee' was given in a vocabulary of
1790 as meaning 'come'.


It was still very prevelant in the 1950s in Southern Engliand among
children - especially when playing Hide and Seek: one called 'cooee' from
one's hiding place to tease the finder. With voices calling 'cooee' from
all directions, the finder was often at a loss as to which direction to go
in.

It is still used  in plays and soaps by older characters  for example when
a friend comes into your house: they knock, open the door and call Cooee to
announce their arrival.

Heather

----------

From: jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be <jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be>
Subject: Etymology


Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

As soon as I read  Jonny Meiboom's remarks about "Wettern"

> Well- indeed there exists another, but very special word tight to E: 'wet'

> in our LS-dialect: "Wettern" (same way used in High German), meaning

> something like  D:"Gracht", E: "canal".



I immediately thought of a place name of West-Vlaanderen, Wetteren. The fact
is, the town is far from wet, being built on a hilltop! So I went to search
for a possible etymology on the web, and this is what I have found:



> De naam Wetteren

>

> Vuethre nomen est uille" = Wetteren is de naam van een dorp, schrijft
> Nodkerus,

> bisschop van Luik in zijn 'Vita Sancti Landualdi', gedateerd 19 juni 980.
> De bisschop

> verhaalt de overbrenging van de relikwieën van de heilige Landoaldus en de
> Gezellen

> van Wintershoven naar de Sint-Baafsabdij te Gent.
> De naam Wetteren is af te leiden uit het Germaanse haar of haruf = zandige
> heuvelrug

> en hwata = scherp. Het centrum van Wetteren ligt inderdaad op een
> heuvelrug die naar

> de Schelde toe steil afbreekt.

> http://www.wetteren.be/gsnaamframe.htm



Later on, Henno Brandsma wrote that



> Wetering" is indeed a Dutch word, and "wjittering" in West Frisian.

> This suggests that the e: is old, and maybe an ablaut variant of

> "water" (WF wetter) or an old Ingvaeonic form, with e < a.



and this seems to make perfect sense. So, could there be a collision of two
different terms for Wetteren? Or does the explanation of *hwata* run in the
wash? Over to you, the scholars.



Jean-Luc Detilleux



(Oufti! Kén' affaire �  Lidje!)


----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (06) [E]

Hi all,

Ja, Ingmar, there are quite a few Malay originating words in Afrikaans
but I will have to get to my library at home to give you a listing.

Grammatically, Afrikaans has repetitive forms originating from Malay,
such as:
Ons speel huis-huis,
Die kinders loop lag-lag winkel toe
Sy het hink-hink daar aangekom

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

PS: I know 'baie' is from Malay 'banya' much, many, a lot. Are there more
common Malay/Javanese/Indonesian/Malagassy loans in Afr.?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ingmar:

> PS: I know 'baie' is from Malay 'banya' much, many, a lot.

Actually, it comes from Malay _banyak_.  In Malay/Indonesian (and most other
language varieties of Southeast Asia, irrespective of genealogy) final stops
are not released (i.e., the mouth/tongue remains in the position until the
next sound is formed).  To people who are not used to this phonetic variant,
these sound either like glottal stops or like nothing, especially so in the
case of unreleased /k/.

For Malay/Indonesian, nominal reduplication tends to be explained as
plural-forming, but I have the feeling that it implies variety more than
that, as does partial reduplication in Philippine languages (which are also
Malayo-Polynesian), varieties of Micronesia, the Americas and parts of
Africa, as well as Turkic "plural" _-lar_ ~ _-lär_.  In some North American
languages, such as the Salishan ones of the Pacific Northwest, variety
expression by way of reduplication has been formally recognized.

By default, plurality of nouns in Malay/Indonesian is not morphologically
expressed; e.g., _gosok gigi_ (not *_gosok gigi-gigi_) 'brush one's teeth',
and _banyak anak_ (not *_banyak anak-anak_) 'many children'.

It makes perfect sense to assume that Afrikaans received reduplication from
Malay varieties, not only because of strong similarities, but also because
it was in the main Malay slaves or Malay-speaking slaves (some of them
having other native languages, such as Javanese and Sundanese) that raised
"Dutch" children "on the Cape."

However, I'm still not fully informed about the full extent and the shades
of meaning of reduplication in Afrikaans.  So, folks, here are a few
questions.

Is there any nominal reduplication, and, if so, what does it express?

Does _huis-huis_ ("house-house") in _ons speel huis-huis_ imply variety, or
does it express iteration > continuation ("we go on and on playing house"),
as do reduplicated verbs in adverbial expressions (_Die kinders loop lag-lag
winkel toe_ "The children run laugh-laugh to the shop" = 'The children run
laughing to the shop', _Sy het hink-hink daar aangekom_ "He has limp-limp
there arrived" = 'She arrived there limping')?

>From what I can tell, reduplication of adjectives/adverbs and also of verbs
in Malay/Indonesian matches Afrikaans usage very well:

* double verbs expressing repeated action
* double adjectives/adverbs expressing intensity
  (e.g., _gou-gou_ 'very fast', _nou-nou_ 'right now')

The thing about reduplication in Afrikaans is a bit of a cross-over between
"Etymology" and "Grammar."

So here is an etymological question to end with.

In Afrikaans, _Maleis_ means 'Malay' (adj./adv.), as does _Slams_.  Am I
right in assuming that the latter comes from _Islams_ 'Islamic'?  If so,
this would be rather interesting, aside from the fact that it would show
that the earliest notable Islamic population of the "Cape" was Malay.  (And
we know that the earliest extant written texts in Afrikaans are in Arabic
script.)  It is interesting also in that this would mean that the word has
been borrowed twice: (1) _Slams_ (~ _Maleis_) 'Malay', (2) _Islams_ (~
_Mohammedaans_) 'Islamic', 'Moslem'.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 16:58:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:58:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.095854.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]


Roger Verhiest wrote:
"In principle the EU converses with its citizens in any of the 20 official
languages - in practice you can forget it if you are unable to use English."

Yes. "Europe, united in diversity" sounds wonderful, but when that diversity
gets a bit too bothersome for the bureaucrats, out it goes. In effect, the
EU has copied the Irish Government's attitude to bilingualism - "let's
pretend". It is profoundly saddening. What is the point of "official status"
when that status means absolutely nothing?

Raw nerves all round, I think, Roger.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 17:51:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:51:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.105152.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners,

(English below)

'n nieget Woord vandoog:

in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*, wat natöörlik opp
Ingelt: "knife", opp Haugdyytsch "Messer" meent. Wi bruukt dat, mutt ick
tougeeven, ne meer foken; de meersten Lüüd seggt "Metz", in de sülvig
Meen'n.

In miin Wöörbökers kunn ick ne recht wat finnen, wat door an verwandt is- ne
in Oul Sassisch, ook ne in Oul Ingelsch or in Oul Frees'sch.

1. Watt meent Jii, woneem dit Woor herkoomen deiht? Kunn dat woll van de
oulen Wikingers koomen?
2. Is dat woll een Woord, wat uns "Platt" sick van dat Ingelsche utleent
hett?

***

Dear Lowlanners,

another word today:

in our LS-dialect we sometimes use the word *Knief*, meaning of course E:
"knife", G: "Messer". It's, as I have to admit, not so very common in our
days, most people prefer the LS: "Metz", meaning the same thing.

In my dictionaries I could'nt find any obvious cognate words, neither in
Old-Saxon nor in Old-English or Old-Frisian.

1. What do You guess to be it's etymological origin? Could it come from Old
Norse?
2. Is it- in our LS- a loan from English?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

[English below]

Dat is 'n intressante Saak, mit dey Du vun daag' an-kümst, leyve Jonny.

Dat Old-Sassische wourd is _sahs_ (> Saks ~ Sax). Dat kanst as 'n lang mets
(~ mess) or as 'n kort sweyrd beschryven. Dat harren sey schynts tou 't
warken un vechten bruukt. (Daar kümt ook Skandinaawsch meyrtal _sakser_,
_saxor_ etc. vör _scheyr_ vun af.) Dat annere Old-Sassisch wourd is
_mėtisahs_ (_metisahs_). Dat harren sey sachs by 't praat-maken un eten vun
spysen bruukt, wyl dat _mėti_ (_meti_) 'eten', 'spys'' beduydt. (Vergl.
Ingelsch _meat_, Deensch _mad_, etc.)

In 't Old-Neddervranksche weett wy man bloots vun _sahs_. Ney-Nedderlandsch
het _mes_ (< *_metisahs_).

Ik kan ook keyn Old-Sassisch wourd vinden, dat mit Ingelsch _knife_ verwandt
is. Ik neem an, dat _knyv_ vun 't Vreyssche or vun 't Skandinaawsche
af-keym, sachs in Middel-Sassische tyden, in dey de Sassen eyn vout in 't
nourd harren un sik poe-a-poe Vreyssch-sprakige rebeyden up d'n snavel
reyten.

Old-Ingelsch het _cníf_, Old-Vreyssch _knif_, Old-Nourdsch _knífr_ (>
_knif_, _kniv_, etc.), Middel-Hollandsch _cnijf_ (> _knijf_, _knijp_),
Middel-Sassisch _knîf_ (> knyv, knyp, > Middel-Duytsch _kneif_).

Nu wy weett dat dat Old-Sassische un das Old-Neddervranksche düt wourd nich
hebt man Middel-Sassische un das Middel-Neddervranksche dat wourd wul hebt,
daar koent wy wul seggen dat dat eyrder vun 't Vreyssche as vun 't
Skandinaawsche af-keym, wyl dat de twey spraken sik in Vreyssch-sprakige
rebeyden breyd moeken. Dat 't vun 't Skandinaawsche af-keym is man nich
unmoeglich. Dat 't 'n Ingelsch leenwourd is, dat gloyv' ik nich.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

You're coming to us with a particularly interesting topic, Jonny.

The Old Saxon word is _sahs_ (> Saks ~ Sax) denoting a long knife or a short
sword, probably used as a tool and as a weapon. (This is where Scandinavian
plural _sakser_, _saxor_ etc. 'scissors' come from.) The other Old Saxon
word for 'knife' is _mėtisahs_ (_metisahs_), which seems to have denoted a
knife with which to prepare and eat food, since _mėti_ (_meti_) means 'food'
(cf. English "meat," Danish _mad_, etc.).

In Old Low Franconian, only _sahs_ seems to be known, and Modern Dutch has
_mes_ (< *_metisahs_).

I can't find an Old Saxon cognate of "knife" either. I suspect that Modern
_knyv_ (<Knief>) goes back to a Frisian or Scandinavian loan, probably in
Middle Saxon times when the Saxons had one foot in the north and were
gradually usurping Frisian-speaking areas.

Old English has _cníf_, Old Frisian _knif_, Old Norse _knífr_ (> _knif_,
_kniv_, etc.), Middle Dutch _cnijf_ (> _knijf_, _knijp_), Middle Saxon
_knîf_ (> knyv, knyp, > Middel-Duytsch _kneif_).

So, in this light of a cognate being absent from both Old Saxon and Old Low
Franconian but a cognate being present in Middle Saxon and Middle Dutch, we
might presume that we are dealing with a Frisian loan, since both languages
encroached on Frisian areas. However, we can't exclude the possibility of
this being a Scandinavian loan either. I think it's less likely that it is
an English loan.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 21:18:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:18:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.141819.0700.>

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From: kt4nn at juno.com <kt4nn at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]

Greetings to Lowlanders,

   The theory of universal language is too complex a subject
for young adults preparing for work. So Esperanto goes out
the window.

Peter Sorensen

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (04) [E]

Criostóir wrote: 'In effect, the EU has copied the Irish Government's
attitude to bilingualism - "let's pretend".'

I have a question related to this.  Didn't Latin have a similar status
regarding the Church and the Academy back in the Middle Ages?  At the time,
those two institutions would have played a similar role in some respects to
the role of governments today, no?  That fact didn't prevent Latin from
dying out...or was it already dead as a language spoken by the common
people?

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 21:46:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:46:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (07) [E/F/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.144619.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]


  From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
  Subject: Etymology

  Leeve Lowlanners,

  (English below)

  'n nieget Woord vandoog:

  in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*, wat natöörlik
opp
  Ingelt: "knife", opp Haugdyytsch "Messer" meent. Wi bruukt dat, mutt ick
  tougeeven, ne meer foken; de meersten Lüüd seggt "Metz", in de sülvig
  Meen'n.

  In miin Wöörbökers kunn ick ne recht wat finnen, wat door an verwandt is-
ne
  in Oul Sassisch, ook ne in Oul Ingelsch or in Oul Frees'sch.
It moderne Westerlauwersk Frysk hat ek "knyft", foar in grut mês, dêr'tst
bygelyks bôle meis nijst. Yn it easten wurdt it ek foar bûsmessen brûkt.
It Noardfrysk hat ek "knif", "kniiw" esfh. Dit is nei alle gedachten stipe
fan
it oanbuorjende Skandinaafks (it hoecht net liend te wêzen: it Aldfrysk hie
it
ommers al en de ûntjouwing is ek lûdwettich).


  1. Watt meent Jii, woneem dit Woor herkoomen deiht? Kunn dat woll van de
  oulen Wikingers koomen?
  2. Is dat woll een Woord, wat uns "Platt" sick van dat Ingelsche utleent
  hett?

  ***
  Greutens/sincerely

  Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

  ----------

  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  Subject: Etymology

  [English below]

  Dat is 'n intressante Saak, mit dey Du vun daag' an-kümst, leyve Jonny.

  Dat Old-Sassische wourd is _sahs_ (> Saks ~ Sax). Dat kanst as 'n lang
mets
  (~ mess) or as 'n kort sweyrd beschryven. Dat harren sey schynts tou 't
  warken un vechten bruukt. (Daar kümt ook Skandinaawsch meyrtal _sakser_,
  _saxor_ etc. vör _scheyr_ vun af.) Dat annere Old-Sassisch wourd is
  _metisahs_ (_metisahs_). Dat harren sey sachs by 't praat-maken un eten
vun
  spysen bruukt, wyl dat _meti_ (_meti_) 'eten', 'spys'' beduydt. (Vergl.
  Ingelsch _meat_, Deensch _mad_, etc.)
It Sealtersk hat noch Soaks foar "mês".


  In 't Old-Neddervranksche weett wy man bloots vun _sahs_.
Ney-Nedderlandsch
  het _mes_ (< *_metisahs_).

  Ik kan ook keyn Old-Sassisch wourd vinden, dat mit Ingelsch _knife_
verwandt
  is. Ik neem an, dat _knyv_ vun 't Vreyssche or vun 't Skandinaawsche
  af-keym, sachs in Middel-Sassische tyden, in dey de Sassen eyn vout in 't
  nourd harren un sik poe-a-poe Vreyssch-sprakige rebeyden up d'n snavel
  reyten.

  Old-Ingelsch het _cníf_, Old-Vreyssch _knif_, Old-Nourdsch _knífr_ (>
  _knif_, _kniv_, etc.), Middel-Hollandsch _cnijf_ (> _knijf_, _knijp_),
  Middel-Sassisch _knîf_ (> knyv, knyp, > Middel-Duytsch _kneif_).

  Nu wy weett dat dat Old-Sassische un das Old-Neddervranksche düt wourd
nich
  hebt man Middel-Sassische un das Middel-Neddervranksche dat wourd wul
hebt,
  daar koent wy wul seggen dat dat eyrder vun 't Vreyssche as vun 't
  Skandinaawsche af-keym, wyl dat de twey spraken sik in Vreyssch-sprakige
  rebeyden breyd moeken. Dat 't vun 't Skandinaawsche af-keym is man nich
  unmoeglich. Dat 't 'n Ingelsch leenwourd is, dat gloyv' ik nich.

  Kumpelmenten,
  Reinhard/Ron
It liket earder mien-Germaansk te wêzen, mei guon fariëteiten dy't it
bewarre hawwe,
en de measten dy't it ferlern hawwe...

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henno (benoarden):

> It liket earder mien-Germaansk te wêzen, mei guon fariëteiten
> dy't it bewarre hawwe, en de measten dy't it ferlern hawwe...

Ach, ja, Henno! Tank. Dit is de dredde mooglikheid, net te ferjitte.

Folks, Henno presented the third possibility, his suggestion, regarding
_knyv_ etc. for 'knife' in Low Franconian and Low Saxon: they are common
Germanic and have been preserved in some varieties, not in others (with the
implication that they just are not found in extant ancient texts).

I have another question regarding Afrikaans.

In Afrikaans, there is no inherited "this" vs "that" opposition of the sort
we find in English, Low Saxon (_dit_ ~ düt_ vs _dat_) and Dutch (_dit_ vs
_dat_).  Afrikaans has just _dit_ as a generic, and it has the compounds
_hierdie_ (< "here that/the") for 'this' and _daardie_ (< "there that/the")
for 'that'.  I wonder if there is some (assumedly indirect) Frisian
influence, given Westerlauwer Frisian _dit_ meaning both 'this' and 'that'.
Do you also say *_dit hjir_ and *_dit dêr_ or *_hjir dit_ and *_dêr dit_
respectively in Frisian?  Are there (assumedly mostly coastal) Low
Franconian varieties that have a similar system (perhaps due to Frisian
substrates) from which Afrikaans might have inherited it (rather than
Afrikaans having "simplified" the system by itself or due to different
influences)?  How about Zeelandic?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 23:59:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:59:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.165941.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (07) [E/F/LS]

At 02:46 PM 04/07/05 -0700, Ron wrote:

  Folks, Henno presented the third possibility, his suggestion, regarding
  _knyv_ etc. for 'knife' in Low Franconian and Low Saxon: they are common
  Germanic and have been preserved in some varieties, not in others (with
the
  implication that they just are not found in extant ancient texts).
>From Claiborne The Roots of English:
"GEN-, like gel-1, another catchall root (see below).  Its supposed meaning
was "compress into a ball," whence KNEAD, but also ? various Gc words
describing compressed KNOBY things and ?? others meaning sharp blows.  The
"knobs" include CLUB, NUB, KNUCKLE, KNOLL (a "knob" of ground), and ? KNOT,
whence KNIT (originally = tie with a knot).  The "sharp blows" group
includes KNOCK, KNACK (originally = sharp blow), and KNACKWURST - a sausage
that cracks (German knackt) sharply when cut or bitten.  More remotely
connected - if at all - is KNIFE.

The diverse descendants of this alleged root suggest that here, too, we're
actually dealing with two or more different ones - probably not even
Indo-European.  Their descendants are found only in Gc - which,
incidentally, was rich in non-I.E. words beginning with KN (modern examples
are "knave" and "knight", which five centuries ago were pronounced as
spelled).  So - why not call it a Germanic root and be done with it?  Ask
the experts!"

Ed again:  perhaps originally the "knife" in question was more of a
"cleaver", with which one appears to hack at the meat.

Ed Alexander

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 14:30:46 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:30:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.073046.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>So - why not call it a Germanic root and be done with it?  Ask
the experts!"
<

OED gives   Germanic  *kni(bar b)az of uncertain etymology   Sorry can't do
a 'bar b' in Compuserve.
Partridge suggest it might be related to LG knipen  G kneifen  = to nip .
Perhaps from those old type shears that one squeezed to close the cutting
edges over one another?????

Heather

----------

From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]

Dag Jonny,

> in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*,

Dutch has two forms, _knijf_ en  _nijf_ both meaning 'knife'. _Knijpen_
existst next to 'nijpen' as 'knop' to 'nop', and D.'knagen' vs Hg 'nagen'.
Cognates of 'nijpen' are found in Md., MLg _nipen_, Onorse _hnippa_, Lit.
_gnybti_, Let. _knebt_.

Too complicated for conclusions,

Groeten,

Jo Thys

----------

From: klaus schmirler <KSchmir at online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]

From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>

> Ed again:  perhaps originally the "knife" in question was more of a
> "cleaver", with which one appears to hack at the meat.

And I still miss the obvious theory: related to kneipen/knipa &c., to
pinch. Which might suggest that the original knives were either regarded
as a utensil to keep your food in place, rather like the fork of current
use, or blunt enough to hurt more than they cut.

klaus

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]


To: Lowlands-l at Lowlands-l.net
From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Subject: Re: LL-L "Etymoloogy" 2005.04.07 (09) [E/]

Ed Alexander wrote (regarding _knife_):

<probably not even Indo-European.
<Gc- which...was rich in non-I.E. words beginning in KN...
<So- why not call it a Germanic root and be done with it?

Yes, Ed, Ron, Henno & all, it is tempting to conclude that _knife_, _knief_,
and _kniv_ don't go back all that far, that they aren't really Indo-European
in origin, possibly Northern Germanic.

However, Gothic, an Eastern Germanic language, gave us _kniwa_ for a
war-blade; a Latin text of the third century A.D. (or C.E., as you prefer)
mentioned a Gothic chieftain named "cniva" --written in Latin
transliteration-- as a Chieftain who specialized in training his men
especially in the blutruenstige Kunst ---bloody craft--- of knife-fighting.

Also, the root goes back a good deal farther. Hittite featured _kenuezi_ and
_kunanti_, to beat to death, and beaten to death, respectively (but not
respectfully!);

Old Church Slavonic had _gniti_ for hunt, beat, slay;
Tocharian A had _kanuemp_ for "slay-tool";
Old Irish had _gnaida_, for "slays, kills";
Finally, reconstructed Proto-Indo-European: _ghnanti_, _ghnenti_, "beat,
beaten".

Perhaps the etymology on this occasion is one derived from function or
purpose rather than strict name. Thus, we may be witnessing the "evolution"
not only of the word "knife", but also the evolution of the weapon itself,
from a battle-borne bludgeoning stick to a SHARP battle-borne bludgeoning
stick! Isn't it wonderful how far mankind has come in a few thousand years?

Hails alleiksamma!

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 15:14:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:14:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.081445.0700.>

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From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (04) [E]


Hi all,
This thread touched a nerve among many experiences that I have had here in
Luxembourg. Many Luxembourgers are proud of their language, and their
insistence to use it has brought some backlash from those  visitors and
workers from Belgium or France who would have nothing to do with learning
even the most elementary words and phrases in Luxembourgish. Their attitude
is that French is superior because of it's unique position of being the
language of the people that brought culture to the rest of the western
world. Just the other day, in a supermarket an elderly Luxembourgish lady
was asking where is the perfume section in her language of a clerk whose
reply was that she did not understand Luxembourgish, that she only spoke
French and was visibly irritated with this customer. This went on for a bit
until some Luxembourgers around who understood French got involved and let
the clerk know how rude she was, after all parfume is pronounced the same in
both languages. This was not the first time that I have observed rudeness on
the part of the French living and working here. Germans on the other hand do
learn some Luxembourgish, but are condescending in that they regard
Luxembourgish as just another novel little dialect of German. For many of
the younger Luxembourgers that I have met and talked to, when approached in
either one of the above languages, they respond in either Luxembourgish or
English, with no apologies made. I asked one young woman who understood
perfectly French, why not just answer back in that language, and she told me
like where have I been all my life, French is just so not cool. When pressed
for a better answer, she said that she was tired of the imperialism of the
French language, and if people can not understand her language, then she
will just reply in English because everyone should know English. For her,
and the others of her group, English represented being free of either French
or German. This is not the position of all the young, but it is interesting
that some are actively choosing English rather than other languages to
converse in.
I have to agree with Criostóir, official status means virtually nothing when
not put into practice, or to force those governments to put into practice
agreements that were signed when becoming members of the EU. However,
Roger's suggestion that Esperanto would be a means of preserving minority
languages is I think, in the end, impracticable. Mimicking natural languages
is not a guarantee that minority languages would be preserved. Only by
speaking would these languages be preserved. English as being used by the EU
as the language of communication instead of French or German does not mean
the end of the minority languages. Quite the opposite I believe. It has
nothing to do with any agendas of those nations in EU, plus it is has the
position of being a leading language of business. More people in Lithuania
know English than French. The only real opposition that I could is for those
nationalists who believe that the use of English would somehow further the
American cultural takeover of Europe. But, I guess that leads us back to the
question of language vs. nationality.

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (06) [E]


Mark Brooks wrote:
"I have a question related to this. Didn't Latin have a similar status
regarding the Church and the Academy back in the Middle Ages? At the time,
those two institutions would have played a similar role in some respects to
the role of governments today, no? That fact didn't prevent Latin from dying
out... or was it already dead as a language spoken by the common people?"

I cannot speak for Latin, but my remark on the Irish Government's treatment
of Irish refers to the Government's stated policy of Irish "as the national
[and] first official language" in the 1937 Constitution being completely
ignored. In reality, it is nigh on impossible to interact with official
agencies in Ireland without English. Over 99 per cent of parliamentary
debates are in English. Cabinet meetings are in English. Bills and acts are
rarely published in Irish, and usually only after long delay. Internal
communication in official agencies is almost entirely in English. Irish is
no longer a compulsory school subject, nor is it a prerequisite for
government employment as had previously been the case (ironically enough
however, even today, 60-90 per cent of government employees - with the
notable exception of the Defence Forces - still return themselves as Irish
speaking according to census data). Irish-medium education has been resisted
by a number of government departments. The Government is even moving away
from the established policy of giving Irish names to state agencies. Irish
is not used at all on temporary public signage, and presented in a smaller,
italicised font on permanent signage. Government websites are hardly ever
bilingual. Nearly all Government paperwork (polling cards, registration
forms, advertisements, etc.) is in English only.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (04) [E]

I think that all efforts to keep languages alive would be better if
all regions adopted the Welsh idea that there is no escaping education
in the native language but by leaving the region.

Surely, if for example Ireland followed the example of Wales, it would
soon be a fully bilingual nation? Southeast Wales, which hasn't been a
Welsh-speaking area for many centuries now, has kids there now who
converse in Welsh because they need it for school.

Many minority languages have in the past been literally beaten out of
children.

I don't see why a total immersion approach in schools could not work
the other way as well (except without the cruel measures against
speaking the native tongue - the teacher speaking the language is one
thing, but whipping students into speaking it as well is torture in
either direction), and it saddens me that so far only Wales has
totally implemented this.

I think the reason for this is that many people are badly educated
about bilingualism, and are afraid that Welsh-medium or Irish-medium
or Limburgish-medium or Söl`ring-medium &c. education will result in
stunted growth of proficiency in the national language (English,
English, Dutch, and German respectively in these examples).

But really. Please. It just hurts so much to see that so many language
revival efforts go on for even 30 or more years doing nothing more
than 2nd-language education for adults (evening classes). This is not
going to bring your language back. If this is all you do, you can kiss
your language goodbye right now.

Educating children through the medium of the indigenous/minority
language is the only sure way to revive or preserve it. In most
nations there is a curricular requirement that all students learn the
national language as well. This isn't a problem - one class period can
be used for this, and the medium should probably be the national
language. Does this injure the effectiveness of the school environment
in reinforcing the role of the indigenous language as dominant? No, it
does not as long as use of the national language by teachers is
restricted to that particular class period.

In addition, there is the problem of what to do with kids with passive
fluency. (this means kids who will hear a question in the
indigenous/minority language but answer in the national language) The
answer is very simple. The teacher should not cruelly insist that the
student use only the indigenous/minority language, but rather work
_with_ the student, constantly encouraging - but not forcing - the
usage of the indigenous/minority language and reinforcing fluency by
continuing its use as the medium of instruction through all levels of
education, ultimately including tertiary education (this is a
"hopefully" - you can complete university degrees in New Zealand
through the medium of Maori, but this doesn't always nessecarily
follow secondary education, especially depending on the structure of
the tertiary education system in the particular country).

Mark

----------

From: Te Mâl <aksjetemal at yahoo.de>
Subject: language politics


Sie haben geschrieben:

---One might suggest including German versions of these messages, since
Germany is the other country with indigenous Frisian populations and North
Germans are among the few populations outside the Netherlands that even know
what the word "Frisian" means.

Machen wir natürlich gerne:

Liebe Leute,
die Bürgerinitiative Te Mâl ist wütend wegen des neuen Kulturabkommens
zwischen der Provinzverwaltung von Friesland und der niederländischen
Regierung. Darin sind Veränderungen festgelegt, die mit dem Wünsch des
Provinzparlaments, die Gleichwertigkeit von Friesisch und Holländisch zu
erhalten, streitig sind. Wir haben unseren Wut in einem Brief ans
Provinzparlament geäussert. Sie finden den Brief und Pressenachrichten auf
Friesisch und Holländisch auf unserer HP www.temal.tk.

Aksjegroep Te Mâl
foarsitter Elbrecht Claus

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Folks,

There are some great views, observations and suggestion being discussed
here.  However, it seems to me that nothing can truly be implemented until
the various governments are willing to do so, and to bring this about, the
voters must truly want them to and must express this at the ballot boxes and
in campaigns.  Success in Wales is not due to a minority-minded, benevolent
spirit having suddenly overcome public servants at Whitehall and Cardiff but
to true efforts having been made by the people of Wales, including political
campaigns.

Much is being said about the hostile attitudes of France, to a degree also
of Italy and Greece, regarding minority language rights.  But let's face it:
at least their politicians are honest and outspoken about their views
(albeit because of their self-righteously hierarchical and nationalistic
mindsets).  What I find more insidious are those administrations that pay
lip-service to the European Language Charter but in reality find it stupid,
unnecessary and dangerous and thus have no intention of supporting actual
implementation, might even sabotage such efforts more or less secretly.
(And aren't budgetary problems the ideal cover story?)  This is much more
difficult to deal with, and it is a recipe for disaster in conjunction with
wide-spread apathy, complacency, naïvité and ignorance, which is what the
naysayers' camps count on.  Awareness through education is thus of vital
importance.  Without it you can moan and groan until you're blue in the face
without most of the concerned people even really understanding what you are
going on about.

There are numerous examples.  Among the latest are German state universities
not supporting continuation of "Low German" (Low Saxon) studies, and the
Netherlands government being unsupportive of minority language rights,
listening to the Dutch-only organization Onse Taal and trying to turn back
the clock.

Just take a look at today's news from Eurolang
(http://www.eurolang.net/news.asp?id=4987) to get a taste.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

<quote>

In yet another display of French contempt towards linguistic diversity,
Senator Gérard Longuet stated that learning Catalan “has no interest at all”.
Another senator, Hugues Portelli, coordinator for the Erasmus Exchange
Programme at the University Paris II, assured that “the French students’
stay in Barcelona is aimed at learning the language of the country - Spain”.
He went further by saying that “we have been forced to forbid students to do
the exchange programme in Barcelona, since the university courses are being
done in Catalan”.

</quote>

<quote>

In an interview with the German daily “Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung” on
Tuesday, Czech president Vaclav Klaus rejected a gesture of goodwill towards
members of the remaining German minority in the Czech Republic.

Mr Klaus said that “this was not a topic of discussion in the Czech Republic
today”.

[...]

In the interview Mr Klaus also rejected the European constitution, which
includes a clause on the protection of minorities. He repeated his often
expressed point of view that the constitution will seriously limit the
“sovereignity of Europe’s nation states”. During a panel discussion in
Berlin recently President Klaus called the European unification process
“artificial”.

</quote>

<quote>

End of Low German department at the University of Göttingen What has been
feared for so long has now finally come true: after 50 years of existence,
the Department of Low German at the Georg-August-University of Göttingen in
Lower Saxony has shut down. The commentary to the courses for the summer
semester starting on 1 April 2005 reads: “Due to the financial constraints
of the federal state government, the philosophy faculty sees itself forced
to close down the department of Low German Language and Literature of the
Seminar for German Philology in 2005. From the summer semester 2005 new
matriculations will no longer be possible for the masters subject Low German
Philology.”

Prof Dr Dieter Stellmacher who has held the chair in Low German in Göttingen
since 1976, will be an emeritus professor this year and the chair will not
be replaced after that.

“Göttingen was the only university in Germany that offered Low German
philology as an independent discipline and where Low German can be studied
as a full-value major subject”, says Dr Reinhard Goltz, spokesman of the
Federal Council for Low German from INS, the Institute for Low German, to
Eurolang.

“At other universities Low German is merely integrated into another subject,
usually German studies; it is not secured structurally at all into studies”,
he adds.

Low German studies are not only threatened at Göttingen University, but also
nationwide, a process which Prof Dr Jan Wirrer, Chairman of the Society for
Low German linguistic research, sees as connected with current budget
cutting trends in higher education policy, resulting in the threat to Low
German philology.

“It’s a fact – and the process in Göttingen gives a clear example – that all
prospective posts that will become available in the future will be under
threat”, Prof Wirrer recently said in a press release.

There used to be six universities with a chair for Low German. They no
longer exist in Greifswald and Münster. There are chairs in Hamburg and
Rostock. In Kiel the chair may be renewed this coming winter semester.

At the end of February, the Parliament of the Land of Lower Saxony adopted a
resolution for the support of Low German at schools and universities and to
maintain at least one chair for Low German language and literature in Lower
Saxony. The move is also in compliance with the obligations the Land has
committed itself to under the European Charter for Regional or Minority
Languages.

However, Prof. Wirrer says that “the Charter for Regional or Minority
Languages is a politically blunt instrument that is mentioned once over
Sunday dinner, but is not used as a guiding principle for political action”.
Despite this criticism Prof. Wirrer hopes that the Charter’s implementation
will be more than just lip service.

One of the chief and most severe problems remains the lack of qualified
teachers. “The schools urgently need qualified teachers that are capable of
conveying language and culture in a way that the outcome is greater than
merely the accidental chanting of songs or the participation in reading
competitions“, said Prof. Wirrer, adding that, “philology as a companion of
current linguistic and cultural processes is indispensable to a language
community. However, the end of all this is looming in Lower Saxony.”
(Eurolang © 2005)

</quote>

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 19:02:01 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:02:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.120201.0700.>

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]


Roger wrote:

"... you will have to learn English
which is a de facto devaluation"

Allow me to disagree.
If it´s done right... but I repeat myself.

"the EU converses with its citiizens in any of the 20 official
languages -
in practice you can forget it if you are unable to use english."

Here I agree, Roger, even more reason to introduce it
with ALL the precautions necessary, and to learn it.

"If minority language speakers want to take action to preserve their
language
they should support the idea of "Esperanto" as a 2nd language for
everyone.."

Why would English devaluate, and Esperanto would not?
It´s all a question of what legal (and de-facto) status
you give to the 2nd, common language. Esperanto is great
but the de-facto status of English is such that it´s use
as a European and World lingua franca has some chances
of succeeding, whereas Esperanto has not, as much as
I hate to look this sad fact in the eye...
So let´s not fight a lost cause but CONCENTRATE on
safeguarding our linguistic diversity in face, and with
the HELP of English.
Mike Wintzer

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 19:31:50 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:31:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.08 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.123150.0700.>

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (06) [E]


Mark wrote:

...Latin from dying out...or was it already dead as
a language spoken by the common people?

Question to all:
When has a language to be considered as died out?
When it ceases to be used in its original form?
Which form? Latin has changed over the centuries
and never died out, only changed its name into...
Italian, Friûl...
Is that a fair statement?
Who will enlighten us?
Mike Wintzer


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Mike!

Point taken, but ...  Would you really, in the real world, expect or advise
those speakers to say or write "Latin" as an answer to questions about their
native languages, or even "Italian Latin," "Friuli Latin," etc.?  Would
speakers of English, Danish, Frisian, German or Afrikaans say "Germanic,"
"Norse," "Low Franconian," etc.?  Technically speaking you may be right, but
... come on now, Mike!

Old English is extinct, or "passé" or whatever you want to call it, but
English is still very much alive.

However, having said this, whether or not Latin (_lingua latina_ in the
actual, narrow sense) is alive or extinct is indeed a valid question, in my
opinion.  While it is no one's native language, it continues to be used, not
only in writing but in some communities (such as among Roman Catholic clergy
and in Latinophile circles) also as a spoken language.  The same applies to
Sanskrit, which is even still spoken as a lingua franca in Hinduism and, to
a far lesser degree, in Buddhism (in some institutes as a mandatory
language), is even used in radio broadcasting (also by Deutsche Welle),
though not as a native language.  (Today's Indo-Aryan languages are, broadly
speaking, descendants of Sanskrit, but speakers of Hindi, Marathi, Nepali,
Bengali or Gujarati would never dream of listing their languages as
"Sanskrit," not even as "Prakrit," which they technically are.  Classical
Chinese is still written and read, but it is neither native nor spoken (and
its sounds are only reconstructed theoretically), being pronounced in the
various modern "dialects" if need be.   Given all this then, are these
languages extinct (and artificially maintained) or are they still alive?
Can a liturgical-only language (such as Church Slavonic or Coptic Egyptians)
be called alive?  The fact that a liturgical and scholarly language can be
revived as a native language can be seen in the case of Hebrew (which
meanwhile causes native speakers to have very distinctive "accents" while
speaking other languages).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 20:03:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:03:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (05) [E]
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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]


Roger wrote:

"... you will have to learn English
which is a de facto devaluation"

Allow me to disagree.
If it´s done right... but I repeat myself.

"the EU converses with its citiizens in any of the 20 official
languages -
in practice you can forget it if you are unable to use english."

Here I agree, Roger, even more reason to introduce it
with ALL the precautions necessary, and to learn it.

"If minority language speakers want to take action to preserve their
language
they should support the idea of "Esperanto" as a 2nd language for
everyone.."

Why would English devaluate, and Esperanto would not?
It´s all a question of what legal (and de-facto) status
you give to the 2nd, common language. Esperanto is great
but the de-facto status of English is such that it´s use
as a European and World lingua franca has some chances
of succeeding, whereas Esperanto has not, as much as
I hate to look this sad fact in the eye...
So let´s not fight a lost cause but CONCENTRATE on
safeguarding our linguistic diversity in face, and with
the HELP of English.
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


Mark wrote:

I think that all efforts to keep languages alive would be better if
all regions adopted the Welsh idea that there is no escaping education
in the native language but by leaving the region.

Mark, I predict that you will be criticised as a radical,
just as I am criticised when I wrote, keep writing:

a language only has a chance of surviving if in its geographical domain if
it is de jure AND de facto THE PRIMARY language.

My question would be:
What is wrong with having to leave a land if you are not
willing to learn its language???
(Andorra, [among others?] implicitly applies this practice, through its
practice of extending residency permits.)

Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


Ron wrote:

 However, it seems to me that nothing can truly be implemented until
the various governments are willing to do so, and to bring this about, the
voters must truly want them to and must express this at the ballot boxes and
in campaigns.

Voters whose languages might have been denigrated, snuffed out,
maybe generations ago, cannot vote in an unbiased manner.

Why has "Maastricht" survived? Because it was not submitted to
referenda in all countries. Why will the "Constitution" fail?
Because it will be voted down. Democracy means that, supposedly
and hopefully, cool-blooded and responsible politicians elected by
popular vote, will make decisions free from campaign emotions.

Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


Ron quoted:

In yet another display of French contempt towards linguistic diversity,

Another example: The Occitan weekly LA SETMANA no. 496 quotes from
a French Interior Ministry Report (rapport Benisti), where it
is stated that speaking French in the family will prevent the
children from becoming criminals (sic!). The paper concludes:
Donc lo fait de parlar lo "patuès de son país" es assimilat a un factor
favorable a la delinquéncia.

For your information,
Mike Wintzer

---------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


From: Lowlands-L
To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 4:14 PM
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


I am glad to see that the subject, almost everytime it comes up, can arouse
so much interest and so many reactions. I was delighted to read through the
postings, Irish, Welsh, Letzebuergish, Sölring, Maori, LS...Wow!
Great postings!!!
Now, at the danger of repeating myself or even sound irritating: To me the
World, past and present, proves that a language only has a chance of
surviving if in its geographical domain it is de jure AND de facto THE
PRIMARY language in ALL areas of public life, education, administration,
media.
Larry, what in the world is it that prevents the Luxemburgers from making
their language their - only - state language (which would in no way prevent
them from continuing to learn and use other languages)?
Larry, I´d like to ask this provocative question: Is there perhaps a bit of
inferiority complex involved in face of the "major" languages???
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


Mark wrote:

It just hurts so much to see that so many language
revival efforts go on for even 30 or more years doing nothing more
than 2nd-language education for adults (evening classes). This is not
going to bring your language back. If this is all you do, you can kiss
your language goodbye right now.

Look around in history and in the present to find heaps of lamentable
examples...

Mike Wintzer

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 22:16:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:16:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (06) [E/LS]
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (01) [E]

Leeve Klaus,

Du schreevst:

> ... or blunt enough to hurt more than they cut.
Sou'n Kroom heff ick all foken in mennigeen Kökenschapp funnen!!

Smiling Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen, Jonny, Klaas (= Klaus) un annere Leyglanders!

> > ... or blunt enough to hurt more than they cut.
> Sou'n Kroom heff ick all foken in mennigeen Kökenschapp funnen!!

Dat kanst wul seggen!  So wat kümt my jammer noug ook vaken in de moyt (un
ik bün nich bloots 'n listen-baas man tou huus' ook noch 'n koyken-baas).
Oever messen vun den slag seen myn vör-öldern "Daar kanst mit up d'n
Boksbarg ryden," un ik seg dat af un an vun daag' noch.  Kint Jy dey segwys'
ook?

Uns Jonny couldn't help making the remark that he often finds items of the
sort in the kitchen cupboard. I comiserated, having made similar unfortunate
finds too often myself, being not only a list _baas_ but at home a kitchen
_baas_ of sorts as well.  My ancestors used to say about any really blunt
knife, "You could ride (on)to Bocksberg* on it" (*the Harz mountain on which
witches congregate on Walpurgis Night).

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]

Hi all,

About knife:

What about the Afrikaans 'klief'? Did the /kn/ go into /kl/ mode?

Do you also have similar forms in other LL languages meaning
'to cut' or 'split into two'?

Example in Afr: Die straler klief deur die lug.

Groete,
Elsie
 _knyv_ / "knave" / knight
Ed again:  perhaps originally the "knife" in question was more of a
"cleaver", with which one appears to hack at the meat.

Ed Alexander

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 22:19:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:19:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.08 (07) [E]
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.08 (04) [E]


Ron wrote in reply to Mike Wintzer:
"Old English is extinct, or "passé" or whatever you want to call it, but
English is still very much alive. However, having said this, whether or not
Latin (_lingua latina_ in the actual, narrow sense) is alive or extinct is
indeed a valid question, in my opinion."

In my opinion, languages can only die when absolutely all record of them has
been lost and they can no longer be revived as a native tongue, as in the
case of Beothuk, Pictish and a number of others. Cornish was declared
extinct over and over, yet it now has many native speakers and many more
speakers who learnt it as a second language. That is why I try to popularise
the usage "dormant language". Hebrew is an example of a "dormant language"
that now has millions of monoglot speakers. Latin would be a truly dormant
language given that it has no native speakers, but is still used communally
and liturgically.

Of course, there is a third category - namely, reconstructed languages.
These have "died" but been "reborn" - their rebirth is based on conjecture.
Examples here include neo-Prussian, Palawi Kani (a reconstructed indigenous
Tasmanian language). Common Cornish (Kernewek Kemmyn) fell into this
category (it has been derided as "Cornic") until it obtained native
speakers.

Lastly, we may include constructed languages that claim no lineage, such as
Esperanto, Volapuk and Klingon, which are used to some extent but have no
native speakers. (Although I am sure I will be corrected here, and deserve
to be if I have misunderstood the nature of Esperanto or Volapuk.)

(By the way, Ron: Sanskrit is not only still widely used, it is also an
official language of India. I think that is "official" in the same way Irish
is "official" - i.e., on paper.)

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.08 (04) [E]

Ron wrote: "Given all this then, are these languages extinct (and
artificially maintained) or are they still alive?"

I once heard a man who was an adherent of Process Philosophy and Theology
who said that we have a word for something that doesn't change, namely
"dead."  Now, if you accept as a premise that only living things change,
then you might say that Latin is dead, because in its literary form it is
"calcified" into written works.  But, if those present day speakers, such as
priests, etc., adapt it to present day reality by adding new words, then you
might day it is still alive.  To me Latin is in a state much like Lenin
was/is in his tomb - he's preserved in an almost unchanging form, and you
certainly wouldn't say he's alive ;-)

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 23:19:10 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:19:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]
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From: kt4nn at juno.com <kt4nn at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (03) [E]

> So lets not fight a lost cause but CONCENTRATE on
> safeguarding our linguistic diversity in face, and with
> the HELP of English.

I agree with Mike. English can provide the enterprise to give Germanic
Languages opportunity.

The linguistic diversity begins at home. But many have no spouse or children
to pass the language down.

But we can learn more language until something happens.

      Peter Sorensen

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (05) [E]

Mike, the problem with your suggestion about Letzebuergesch is that
the common viewpoint in Luxembourg will most likely be that it isn't
economically viable (although it really is; it's just going to be hard
for people to fathom an international business haven in Luxembourg
with such restrictions).

Re the French interior ministry's comments on "patois": The entire
post-revolutionary French government should be shot. Seriously, these
people care more about national unity than the concerns of their
constituents. La français est la langue de la republique, no matter
what!!! You want to have a Breton-medium public school? Our answer: La
français est la langue de la republique. You want to require all civil
servants in the French portion of Basque country have a certain degree
of Basque fluency? La français est la langue de la republique. You
want to set up a regional parliament with the regional language as a
co-official language? La français est la langue de la republique. You
want to? La français est la langue de la republique. You? La français
est la langue de la republique. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts - la
français est la langue de la republique, and a tool for linguistic
oppression of les minorités at that.

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

I agree with Mike (yes, Mike, buddy, I do agree with you at times) at least
as much (but actually more than) that it is nice to see so much passionate
response to this topic (Mike's not coming as a surprise, of course).  It is
heartening to see that a lot of thinking about this subject area is going
on, and I sense many a glimpse of wisdom in the postings.

With time (and maturity or simply "crotchetiness") it is becoming
increasingly obvious to me that in European language politics people tend to
deal with surface symptoms more than with underlying causes, more than with
age-old ingrained views and attitudes.  Despite much talk about unity,
Europe has really not evolved very far from the tribal society stage, at
which one tribe has one language (variety). This has been expanded to the
nation state, as if to a super-tribe, which in a way it is, the historical
pattern being that one tribe conquers others, creates a "federation" and
imposes its culture, beliefs and language on the conquered.  It ought
therefore not come as a surprise if the thought pattern "unity requires
uniformity" still predominates, most clearly expressed in France and Greece
and lately also in the Czech Republic.  It does not matter how much and how
passionately you praise the idea of diversity within unity, the average
European -- having seen ideologies come and go -- sticks to the ideal of
"one country, one language," pays lip-service at best, and considers
alienation between related people across arbitrary political boundaries a
price that needs to be paid.  People, languages and cultures are being filed
away in compartments.

In my experience, the average European still considers diversity within one
country a negative thing, a type of obstacle or hardship that needs to be
dealt with by removing it.  This comes to the fore most clearly in
xenophobic expressions regarding "foreigners" (which may have lived within a
given country all their lives, or for generations, if not for centuries).
We saw it happen during the last Danish and Dutch election campaigns, both
countries considered "liberal" by most standards, also in the recent school
attire debacle in France ("Islamic dress is un-French"), and in many a
European politician's chauvinistic remarks about Turkey's ambitions to join
the European Union, and we see it in Germany's persistence in labeling and
treating generations of German-born Turks and others as "foreigners," just
as generation after generation of locally born Roma and Jews have
traditionally been seen and treated.

>From xenophobia vis-� -vis real or labeled foreigners to xenophobia vis-� -vis
indigenous minorities is but a tiny step.  By speaking differently you
declare yourself a type of foreign body, and that's not a good thing,
especially when you have been given glorious opportunities for "upgrading"
to a new nationalized person.  Given such attitudes, why should people want
to embrace diversity and pay for it, pay for "special" (= "foreign")
education that perpetuates the "foreignness" of "those people"?

When I visit Europe and share such observations and views, people tend to
react with attitudes like "it's really more complex than you know" and "it's
easy for you to judge, being used to living in melting pots."  The
underlying tenor tends to be that places like the Americas and Australia
have *chosen* diversity, that it is self-imposed, that places like Britain,
France, Belgium and the Netherlands are paying for having colonial pasts,
while most of Europe didn't ask for it, can't or won't put up with it.

I firmly believe that reluctance and hostility vis-� -vis European language
rights are rooted in all of this and that nothing will change unless more
fundamental attitudes change.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: But then again, perhaps I *am* just weird as a result of being
European, Australian and (as of next Monday afternoon) American at the same
time.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  9 19:40:47 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:40:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.09 (01) [E]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]


I believe English will become an "Esperanto for everyone"; it is already
losing its role as "Language of the English", who are minority speakers of
the language anyway.  It will then fall on us in England to strengthen and
codify our own dialects, rather think of them as "slang", as is commonly
believed.

Paul

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]


The trouble with English "providing the enterprise to give Germanic
Languages opportunity" is that the "English" that becomes most popular with
education, especially amongst non-native English speakers, is the "pidgin
Latin" variety.  Ask any Singaporean, Taiwanese, or Indian which is "better"
English - dig or excavate, think or contemplate/cogitate/consider, home or
residence; the list goes on.

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks, Paul.  I share your prediction and suggestion regarding the role and
future of English.

To a vast degree, English has grown into a neutral language already, which
is what I think you implied.  I feel that what holds many people back from
accepting this is that English happens to be a first language of many and is
by many still associated with colonialism, which prompts them to associate
the promotion of international English use with continuation of perceived
colonialism in the form of "Americanization" and domination of multinational
corporations.  I am sure that this is further strengthened by the European
obsession with the concept "one language, one ethnicity, one nation."  So
what I am saying is that English is factually a neutral language already,
just not in the minds of certain traditionally thinking people.  I am under
the impression that this role of English worries the speakers of "smaller"
languages less than those of "more important" ones, that in the instance of
the latter a sense of loser's chagrin is involved.

Having said this, of course there are some disadvantages in that English
orthography is not exactly "user-friendly," and acquisition is further
impeded by idiomatic phrases being particularly numerous and important, also
by the rate of change being particularly fast in English, in part because of
its easy adaptability and constant adaptation to new cultures and
technologies.  English phonology is not particularly easy to learn either,
what with an abundance of reduced vowels.  In some ways, among the "more
important" and wide-spread languages it would probably be Spanish that would
have been more suitable.  However, most learners of English seem to be doing
pretty well (and I have been watching many a new Lowlander's school-learned
English bloom after just a few months on the List).  I think we ought to
face facts and make the best of the development which is well under way, for
better or for worse.

I can see that in the future most native English speakers will be at least
bilingual in that they will know International English in addition to their
local English varieties, if not their national English varieties as well.
This will put them into pretty much the same position as everyone else: they
will have to learn International English as a non-native variety (though
acquisition is no doubt easier for them than for others).  To retain their
own separate identities and language-based cultures and also to safeguard
the neutrality of International English they would do well preserving and
developing their local English varieties.  I can see all of this leading to
a situation in which we will have a neutral international language and at
the same time considerable enrichment of the English language as a whole.

Thanks again, Paul!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  9 19:41:57 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:41:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.9.APR.2005.124157.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: Naming practices


Hello, all, I was very curious about this. When I check various sites that
deal with names, I see many of our English names that deal with wolves and
such. How did the pre-Christian Germanic tribes in the lowlands and
elsewhere tend to name their boys and girls? Was it shamanistic? That is,
was it related to events that surrounded the birth?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  9 20:06:34 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:06:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.09 (03) [E/F/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.9.APR.2005.130634.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (07) [E/F/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> I have another question regarding Afrikaans.
>
> In Afrikaans, there is no inherited "this" vs "that" opposition of the
> sort
> we find in English, Low Saxon (_dit_ ~ düt_ vs _dat_) and Dutch (_dit_
> vs
> _dat_).  Afrikaans has just _dit_ as a generic, and it has the
> compounds
> _hierdie_ (< "here that/the") for 'this' and _daardie_ (< "there
> that/the")
> for 'that'.  I wonder if there is some (assumedly indirect) Frisian
> influence, given Westerlauwer Frisian _dit_ meaning both 'this' and
> 'that'.
> Do you also say *_dit hjir_ and *_dit dêr_ or *_hjir dit_ and *_dêr
> dit_
> respectively in Frisian?  Are there (assumedly mostly coastal) Low
> Franconian varieties that have a similar system (perhaps due to Frisian
> substrates) from which Afrikaans might have inherited it (rather than
> Afrikaans having "simplified" the system by itself or due to different
> influences)?  How about Zeelandic?

It Westerlauwer Frysk hat sawol "dit", "dat" , "dizze", "dy".
Ik wit net hoe ofst dit misbegryp yn 'e wrâld kommen is... Yn it Noardfrysk
(mooring benammen) binne der al foarmen as "jüheer", jüdeer", mar dy binne
tink ûntstien trochdat 'jü' al it lidwurd is (froulik) (dy binne de basis
foar de lidwurden), en de gearfal fan lidwurd en oanwizend omnamwurd blykber
as ûnhandich ûnderfûn waard... It sil ek mei stipe krige ha fan de Jutske
dialekten, dy't neffens my ek sokke foarmen hawwe.

> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Tank, beste Henno.

Mar binne "dit", "dat", "dizze" en "dy" ek wurde met ferskillene
betsjuttinge?

> Ik wit net hoe ofst dit misbegryp yn 'e wrâld kommen is...

Miskien meidat net genôch goeë Fryske wurd- en learboeke te fine binne?

Groetnis,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (01) [E]

Jonny wrote:

>> in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*,
>
Beste Jonny,

mien Vadder hett ook ummer "Knief" to´n Klappmess seggt, aver nie nich
to´n Kökenmess. Mag ween, dat dat vun "canif" ut dat Französsch stammen
deit, dat is denn ook´n Klappmess. In ole Tieden hebbt de betern Lüüd
versökt Französsch to parleren.

Mit Kumpelment.
Utz H. Woltmann

---------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (06) [E/LS]

Elsie wrote:

> About knife:
>
> What about the Afrikaans 'klief'? Did the /kn/ go into /kl/ mode?
>
> Do you also have similar forms in other LL languages meaning
> 'to cut' or 'split into two'?

Beste Elsie,

wi hebbt "klöven" orrer "opklöven" in Neddersassisch , wat nipp un nau
datsülvige bedüden deit.

Mit Kumpelment.

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (06) [E/LS]

Dag, Elsie,

"about knife" You wrote:

> Do you also have similar forms in other LL languages meaning
> 'to cut' or 'split into two'?
>
> Example in Afr: Die straler klief deur die lug.

Yes, we have: LS: "*cloeuven* (Holt) ['Hest Diin Holt föör 'n Winter all
kloeuvt?']", E: "to chop (wood)", G: "(Holz) spalten, hacken".

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 16:52:20 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:52:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.095220.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.09 (03) [E/F/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Tank, beste Henno.
>
> Mar binne "dit", "dat", "dizze" en "dy" ek wurde met ferskillene
> betsjuttinge?

Jawisse: dit == Nl dit, dizze == Nl deze, dat ==Nl dat, dy == Nl die.
Dus dizze, dit foar tichteby (dit = ûnsidich, dizze = foar de-wurden en
meartallen)
en dit, dy foar fierder. (dit = ûnsidich, dy = de rêst)

>> Ik wit net hoe ofst dit misbegryp yn 'e wrâld kommen is...
>
> Miskien meidat net genôch goeë Fryske wurd- en learboeke te fine binne?

Dit is yndie in saak dy't better kinne soe. Mar it haadstik yn
Routledge "The Germanic Languages"
(dêr't Nederdútsk ek in plakje yn hat) oer it Frysk befettet al frijwat
ynformaasje, ûnder oaren
oer it omnamwurddsysteem. En fansels hast de "Frisian reference
grammar" fan Tiersma, dy is yn it Ingelsk
en frij wiidweidich. en der is in goed Frysk-Ingelsk, Ingelsk-Frysk
wurdboek sûnt in pear jier.

> Groetnis,
> Reinhard/Ron

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 16:54:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:54:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language status" 2005.04.10 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.095411.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Language status

Found this today at noon about Dutch in Germany
on: http://teletekst.nos.nl/tekst/106-01.html
Regards,
Roger

 106     Teletekst za 09 apr

 Nederlands populairder in Duitsland

 MÜNSTER In de Duitse deelstaat Noord-
 Rijnland-Westfalen kiezen steeds meer
 studenten voor het vak Nederlands.Op de
 middelbare scholen volgen zo'n 16.000
 leerlingen Nederlandse les.

 In het hoger onderwijs is het aantal
 studenten Nederlands de afgelopen vijf
 jaar verdubbeld,tot 400.Er is dan ook
 een tekort aan leraren.

 Omgekeerd is er minder belangstelling:
 het aantal Nederlandse studenten Duits
 is twee tot drie keer zo laag als het
 aantal Duitse studenten Nederlands aan
 de universiteit van Münster alleen al.
 Volgens deskundigen vinden de meeste
 Nederlanders Duits te moeilijk.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 16:55:25 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:55:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.10 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.095525.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.09 (02) [E]


I've always thought it curious that even after conversion, the English
continued to give "Wolf-" names as Christian names - Archbishop Wulfstan is
an obvious case.  There is a strange double standard in Germanic (and
doubtless other) traditions regarding predators, especially wolves; they
were admired, and their names adopted as symbols of strength and cunning,
yet they were deliberately hunted to extinction.  And an outlaw was a
"wulfesheofod" -- Wolf's-head.
I gather that when Israel was founded, and parents wanted to give the first
generation kids Hebrew but non-biblical names, there was a fashion for
"Bear", "Lion" etc for boys, and flowers for girls.  Interesting that
English-speakers still use flowers for girls, but few use predators for
boys, though I gather Wulf remains popular in Germany, also Bjorn and Arne
in Scandinavia .  Our name Ernest is probably a rare survivor - and few
probably know it has anything to do with eagles!
Maybe some of the folks of other nationalities on the list can give me other
examples?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 17:45:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:45:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (04) [E]
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.09 (01) [E]


Ron wrote:
"I am sure that this is further strengthened by the European obsession with
the concept "one language, one ethnicity, one nation"..."

I have been following this debate from the sidelines, having been too busy
otherwise to jump in, as much as I have wanted to.

Two points:

Firstly, English is absolutely _not_ a neutral language. From the point of
view of someone whose ethnic languages (Cornish and Irish) have been largely
extirpated it, the "English is a neutral economic necessity" only lends
weight to those who would oppose the strengthening of Cornish and Irish. In
Ireland especially, there has been a vocal movement against Irish, basing
their argument on a supposition that Irish is not only uneconomic, but that
the adoption of English by the Irish has in effect been a godsend.

Secondly, notions of "one language, one ethnicity, one nation" is hardly
European. Americans and increasingly Australians are the ones who confuse
"nation" with "state". Hence Americans talk of "the nation" where they mean
state structures. They were the first to refer to "one nation [under God]".
Regardless of the origin(s) of Americans, more and more refer to themselves
as "American" on census forms (as do Australians and Canadians) - clear
signs of "one ethnicity". I do not even have to describe in depth the fact
that both the United States and Australia have utterly monolingual
English-only policies (California banned bilingual education, remember),
even though their is no official language in either.

English is a killer language. Don't let its utility deceive any of you
otherwise.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]


Mark Williamson wrote:
"...the problem with your suggestion about Letzebuergesch is that the common
viewpoint in Luxembourg will most likely be that it isn't economically
viable (although it really is; it's just going to be hard for people to
fathom an international business haven in Luxembourg
with such restrictions)."

Of course. Every language (even the like of Livonian) is economically
viable. Money doesn't care which language uses it. Economic arguments are
excuses for no change. Ironically enough, where the change is substantial,
businesses - at least in Europe - are usually enthusiastic drivers of the
process. In Wales after the Welsh Language Act 1993, businesses soon adopted
limited bilingualism as a form of corporate social responsibility.

Mark also wrote:
"Re the French interior ministry's comments on "patois": The entire
post-revolutionary French government should be shot. Seriously, these people
care more about national unity than the concerns of their constituents."

I wholeheartedly agree. The same can be said of English in the United States
and Australia. "Anglais est la langue de la peuple, et l'état."

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]


Mark wrote:

hard for people to fathom an international business haven in Luxembourg
with such restrictions

which restrictions? Having a national language of its own?
At the international crossroads, LX will always have to deal
with, and be conversant in, other languages.

Or were you referring to "having to learn the language or leave"?
This obviously would not apply to a business, but it would only
be fair to apply it to those of its agents who seek resident status.

What´s your view, Mark? What´s your view, Lowlanders?

Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]


Ron, you wrote:

...as of next Monday afternoon...

Is there reason for congratulations?!

Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Críostóir,

You points are well taken.  Bear in mind, though, that my critical remarks
about European attitudes ought not be taken as endorsing other existing
attitudes, American, Australian or whatever.

Having said this, please remember that, while they have conventions, the
United States have *no* language policy, certainly nothing enshrined in the
constitution as it is in France and other European countries, thereby, at
least in theory, leaving the door open for another language to take the
lead.  This is why some groups want to introduce a federal "English only"
policy, decried as fundamentally racist by many in the opposition.  Changes
in California are within educational policies on the *state* level, favored
by a succession of conservative-dominated governments.  The federal
government has no say in this, though the federal supreme court will be able
to endorse it or strike it down when it is brought before it.  However,
school districts in "liberal" areas (such as the San Francisco Bay Area) are
finding ways around the conservative-lead political changes.  Furthermore,
bear in mind also that Spanish as a second language, at least, is being
forcefully pushed throughout the States, and is a requirement for a large
percentage of job positions especially in the southwestern states.  This is
rarely the case in European areas in which minority languages are used, not
even in administrative positions.

The United States, Canada and Australia used to pursue intregration policies
that were hostile to linguistic and cultural survival in indigenous and
immigrant communities.  They all changed this in the 1960s and 1970s.
Canada and Australia put a lot of money into their diversity support
policies, and many immigrant languages do very well in those countries, also
in the United States.  Maltese and Timorese, for instance, had a lot of
speakers in Australia and, with government support, had media representation
even when they did not do well in their countries of origin.  Cantonese,
Hokkien and Mandarin are doing extremely well in all three countries, being
represented strongly in the media, as is Spanish in the United States.  For
decades now, Canada Day and Australia Day have been celebrated with the
strong message of encouragement for maintaining various family-heritage
languages and cultures as Canadians and Australians.

The point is that being American, Canadian or Australian is not seen as
belonging to a certain ethnic group, while nationality and ethnicity, and in
extension language use, *is* widely considered as "ideally" coinciding in
conservative European views.  Being different (which includes belonging to
any indigenous minority) is still widely considered alien, problematic,
obstinate and even "foreign" in Europe, while this is far less so in
American, Canadian or Australian societies.  Despite my "accent" and my
"weird" ways and opinions, Australians and Americans always tend to err on
the side of assuming that I am a citizen of their respective countries just
by virtue of living there.  In Europe this tends to be the opposite.  People
speaking "foreign" languages and having non-mainstream cultures, religions
and dress are by default assumed to be foreigners, even for generations and
centuries, as I mentioned before.

Críostóir, I can understand that English is by no means neutral to
linguistic minorities of Britain and Ireland.  However, it is my impression
that it is becoming so in the rest of the world.

> Economic arguments are excuses for no change.

Right-o, daddy-o!

> Ron, you wrote:
>
> ...as of next Monday afternoon...
>
> Is there reason for congratulations?!

Thanks, Mike.  That's entirely up to you and your views.  Let's just say
that I am gaining something without giving up anything.  Furthermore,
nothing will ever change my cosmopolitan status, though there's no piece of
paper for that (yet).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 18:38:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:38:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.04.10 (05) [E/B]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.113826.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Hi all,
Ingmar, some time ago I've given in a posting to LLL, a listing of Afrikaans
words originating from Malay. The LLL archives should still have these.
On Ron's  questions:
Yes, _huis-huis_ implies continuation (We are playing house)
_Die kinders loop lag-lag winkel toe_(The children run to the shop laughing)
_Sy het hink-hink daar aangekom_ (She arrived there while limping)

Yes: >double adjectives/adverbs expressing intensity: (e.g., _gou-gou_ 'very
fast',
No: _nou-nou_ means 'in a short while'. [I'll say this to request patience.]

Yes, Maleis means Malay and Slams derives from Islam. Many older Cape
people refer to themselves as being 'Slams' meaning Muslim and from Cape
Town.
The earliest Islamic population to arrive in the Cape were Muslim after they
have been forcibly expatriated from the Indonesian archipelago by the Dutch.
It seems from historical writings that they were allowed to take their
religious
leaders with them, hence the earliest writings being religious.
The largest Muslim population in South Africa are still the descendants from
these groups and they are still predominantly Afrikaans speaking despite a
lot of
resistance by younger people to admit it.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"


Primo
I'm still experimenting a bit with good spellings for the dialect so please
forgive me any inconsequencies - I as well have to get used to writing
spoken language. (For this reason I fear my version of the Wren is also not
as consistent as I'd like. When will it be officially published by the way?)
Remarks, questions, anything will be gladly heard from my side as it would
be ideal if foreign Lowlanders could also read what I write, just like I can
read their Low Saxon spelling without too much problems.

Secundo
Ouver dit/dat enzoevaaier bè oengs in Aantwaarpe (en Broabant in et
algemieën):
Et OA.N. ei twieë geslachte, deze/die en dit/dat.
Waai emme d'r draai (dad un gedroage gelèk et grutste dieël van oengs
adzjektieve)

*mannelek deize(n)/dieje(n)
[De -n- verschent as et volgende wourd begint mè 'ne klinker of mè 'n d/t/b]
*vraawelek deis/die
[Wørd oek gebrouikt veur mieërvaawde]
*onzaaideg deis/da(d)
[De -d verschent as et volgende wourd begint mè ne klinker. D, z en v wørre
stemloeës øtgesprouke achter "da"]

***
About this/that &c. in Antwerp (and a big part of Brabant as well I think)
Standard Dutch has two gender-differing forms here.
We have 3, they have a lot of characteristics (qua inflection) in common
with normal adjectives.

*masc. deize(n)/dieje(n)
[The -n- appears when the next word begins with a vowel or with a d/t/b]
*fem. deis/die
[Is also the plural form]
*neut. deis/da(d)
[The -d- appears in front of a vowel. D, z and v become voiceless t, s, f
when they follow "da"]

Diederik Masure
didimasure at hotmail.com

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 19:16:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:16:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.121652.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary + New Yank 2005.04.10


Liobothai Dalalandarje!

Tomorrow Reinhard Hahn takes the blood-oath of U.S. citizenship. Although I
am anything but nationalistic, I offer my sincere congratulations.

The United States have always needed, and sometimes produced, people of
great courage and compassion t fight for human and minority rights. It is a
side of American immigrant character that has oft been eclipsed by other,
darker spirits.

The USA --and indeed the world-- need more like you, Ron. What a neat way to
cap off the Lowlands-L Tenth Year Anniversary! I can almost hear the strains
of Haendel's music echoing to the fireworks. Or was that gunshots? And was
the music really Pachtelbel? Or Buxtehude?

Anyhow, congrats, frijand mein.

Arthur

Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Thank you so much for your kind, albeit somewhat premature, words of
congratulations and welcome, dear Arthur.  It will be tomorrow in the late
afternoon (no way of telling with that lot) that (after a long and
bureaucratically torturous ride) I will be officially declared
potentate-free, at least as far as this persona is concerned, and that's
just dandy with me, for I've never been exactly a fan of potentates and
hierarchies.

It took me decades of maturing to arrive at a place where I can feel that
with such a step I am not endorsing current predominant attitudes, policies,
laws, government officials and the like, but am officially tying the knot
with an idea and an ideal that is worthy, though unfortunately far from
being realized.  The official rejection of hierarchies ("All men are born
equal"), assurance of fundamentally guaranteed freedoms, and separation from
the state yet freedom of religion, are good enough for me, and so it should
be if it was good enough for the likes of Albert Einstein and other great
_mentshn_.  I suppose there's room for me somewhere in a pool with a span as
wide as to accommodate the likes of  Richard Butler, Jerry Falwell, Noam
Chomsky and Angela Davies, not to forget the likes of you, Arthur, and Robin
as well all my other precious, passionate and compassionate American friends
on the List and elsewhere.  This sort of thing is also what I had embraced
in passionately outspoken, rough-and-tumble yet deeply compassionate, caring
and incredibly generous Australia, something I greatly admire in Canada as
well (though, of course, the latter two are not [yet] potentate-free).

So, thanks, dear Arthur!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 20:57:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:57:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.135711.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (04) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>
English is a killer language. Don't let its utility deceive any of you
otherwise.<

But only because people make it so.

Of it self it is just a means to an end - communication

The value / importance real or imaginary laid upon it is put there by
people.

When I lived in Wales, I had to fend off attacks by 'ardent' Welsh language
supporters who argued that my Grandfather would not have had to wear the
Welsh NOT   ([A wooden board with NOT carved in it. It was placed round the
neck of any pupil heard speaking Welsh and could only be got rid of by
passing it to another pupil heard speaking Welsh ( i.e. to encourage
children to snitch on each other) ]

My reply was twofold
1. My grandfather would have worn the Norfolk NOT. The NOT board was not
solely to be found in Wales. National Education in mid 19th century had as
one of its aims the learning of The Queen's English so that all children
would have freedom of movement throughout the land and freedom from
snobbery and prejudice engendered by use of unintelligible dialects. It was
important ( as seen then) that people should be able to move to an area and
not find themselves hampered by lack of intelligibility.

What was not understood or taken on board was that Queen's English was
meant to lie parallel with own's own language not replace it. And this
leads to my second point.

2. It was Welsh teachers who hung the Welsh NOT around the pupils' necks -
not English teachers - who were busy hanging similar devices round
Hampshire , Sussex, Yorkshire , Devon etc children's necks. The Welsh
middle class abandoned their Welsh language in the home  because they
believed it would give their children a greater advantage in the world if
their English was good/perfect.

It is amusing/strange/ obvious/ interesting that it is exactl;y this same
group of people who have led the revival of Welsh in Wales ... in order to
secure a good job one has to be a Welsh speaker.

If any one is to blame it is the middle classes who seem to think that a
single language will land a better job AND who do not understand that bi-
or even polylingualism is a natural human talent.

Those parents who have supported understanding and skillls in many
langauges / dialects are the ones to be lauded, so that others can be shown
that the idea of 'giving up ' one language for another is NOT the way
forward.

Heather

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (04) [E]


Ron wrote:
"...please remember that, while they have conventions, the United States
have *no* language policy, certainly nothing enshrined in the constitution
as it is in France and other European countries, thereby, at least in
theory, leaving the door open for another language to take the
lead."

I did make reference to that in my initial response. It is bitterly ironic -
sickening, in fact - that Ireland, which has an official national language,
pretends it does not, and that Australia and the United States, which have
no official languages, pretend that they do.

Ron also wrote:
"The United States, Canada and Australia used to pursue intregration
policies that were hostile to linguistic and cultural survival in indigenous
and immigrant communities. They all changed this in the 1960s and 1970s."

Canada excepted (I actually believe the Canadian experience of official
languages is most instructive, although it could be improved upon in terms
of the treatment of indigenous languages), multi-culturalism (in Australia
at least - I cannot and would not like to speak for the United States) is
superficial. Indigenous languages are still as threatened and
administratively ignored as ever, even in areas where they are the main
idiom spoken. While it is possible to obtain government information in a few
languages, not all immigrant languages are catered for.

One example in particular made no sense to me. During the recent state
election in Western Australia, electoral information was available in a raft
of languages. Arabic, Greek, Dutch, Italian, German, the various Chinese
languages, Thai and Vietnamese were demographically justifiable. Yet the
same information was not made available in any of the indigenous languages,
despite a relatively higher rate of spoilt ballots in areas where English is
a second language. Nor was it available in Welsh, even though there is a
substantially first-language Welsh-speaking community in Perth. However,
inexplicably, the information was available in both Amharic and Tigrinya,
even though hardly any of the Ethiopian- or Eritrean-born speak these
languages according to census data (the main language among Ethiopian
households was English with 14.3 per cent and among Eritrean households was
Arabic with 57.3 per cent). What is more, only 400 Ethiopians and 240
Eritreans actually live in Weste rn Australia. There are far more native
Welsh speakers (at least 2,200 in WA alone if my projections are accurate),
and many, many more indigenous language speakers. It was utterly
wrong-headed, and breeds a certain amount of cynicism toward the exercise in
the first place.

Who chooses which languages fall under "multi-cultural" and which ones are
left to fend for themselves? Yes, most Welsh speakers have very good
English. But, according to census data, so do most Ethiopians and Eritreans.
(Indeed, Ethiopians have the best knowledge of English of any ESL Australian
immigrant group at 84.6 per cent speaking English "very well or well".)
Certainly to me there is no justification for demanding that non-English
speaking Aboriginals interact with officialdom in English.

Ron wrote:
"For decades now, Canada Day and Australia Day have been celebrated with the
strong message of encouragement for maintaining various family-heritage
languages and cultures as Canadians and Australians."

I am less optimistic, Ron. One of the defining facets of the identity of
Australian officialdom is that it is Anglophone. Citizenship ceremonies -
including the oath - are in English only. Australia Day is an
English-speaking day. Official ceremonies that took place in other languages
would not be treated with contempt, but they would be seen as a bit odd.
Multi-culturalism is superficial and minimal, and geared towards ensuring
that yes, family-heritage languages survive, but that they stay in the
family and in the home. I strongly believe this attitude of linguistic
discouragement contributes to a general Australian unwillingness to see the
utility in learning languages other than English.

Lastly, Ron wrote:
"Being different (which includes belonging to any indigenous minority) is
still widely considered alien, problematic, obstinate and even "foreign" in
Europe, while this is far less so in American, Canadian or Australian
societies. Despite my "accent" and my "weird" ways and opinions, Australians
and Americans always tend to err on the side of assuming that I am a citizen
of their respective countries just by virtue of living there."

Yes, because you communicate through English. Many Australians believe you
are refusing to integrate ("abusing their hospitality") if one does not
speak English all the time, even to one's own children. Indeed, disciplining
children for using indigenous languages in the playground is still known - I
have seen it personally. But, as I should point, that is my own personal
experience, and everyone's is different.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (06) [E]


Ron wrote of his citizenship ceremony:
"It took me decades of maturing to arrive at a place where I can feel that
with such a step I am not endorsing current predominant attitudes, policies,
laws, government officials and the like, but am officially tying the knot
with an idea and an ideal that is worthy, though unfortunately far from
being realized."

Can you take ceremony in languages other than English? What a service you
would do if you took it in Low Saxon!

Ádh mór agus comhghairdeas agatsa a chara,

Criostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hey, Críostóir!

Again, I feel there's no basic disagreement between you and me.  We're just
looking at the same things in slightly different ways and accordingly react
differently.  I am now looking less at manifestations of political and
bureaucratic mindlessness, more at basic intents.  It is far easier to
change the former (globally endemic though it may be) than to change the
latter.

> It is bitterly ironic - sickening, in fact - that Ireland, which has an
> official
> national language, pretends it does not, and that Australia and the United
> States, which have no official languages, pretend that they do.

I totally agree.  And, no, the Oath of Allegiance can be said in English
only.  Furthermore, despite the absence of a language policy, the
"naturalization" process includes an English exam (which the officer gave
me, also a third-grade English dictation (!), even though I was officially
exempted thrice, having lived here for more than 20 years, having immigrated
from a factually English-speaking country and having degrees from
English-speaking universities -- but who dares to argue with an INS officer,
now belonging to Homeland Security?)  I have discussed this with a few
people here, who argued that it is a pragmatic rule, because in reality you
can't survive without English, to which I countered that having survived for
22 years ought to be sufficient proof.  (The minimum number of years is
five, and that's a long time to survive, too.)

> Many Australians believe you are refusing to integrate ("abusing their
> hospitality") if one does not speak English all the time, even to one's
> own children.

This is not my experience, but perhaps I frequented different social
circles.  Only once did I hear a guy scream at Vietnamese speakers on a
public bus in Perth for this reason, and several other assumedly born and
raised Australians, as well as yours truly, told him to shut the #$&@ up and
leave those people alone.

> Yet the same information was not made available in any of the indigenous
> languages, despite a relatively higher rate of spoilt ballots in areas
> where
> English is a second language.

Oh, yeah!  The same happens here, also in Canada, according to reports.
Federal government information, public health guides, etc., are routinely
sent not only in English but also in Spanish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Khmer,
Laotian, Korean, Amharic, Tigrinya and Russian, often also in (Haitian)
Kreol, Hmong, Arabic, German, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian and others, but not
in indigenous languages, usually not even to areas with high concentrations
of speakers of these.  So speakers of Lakota, Navajo, Iñupiaq, Yup'ik,
Gwich'in, Koyukon, Tanaina, Tanana, Ahtna, Kuskokwim, Aleut, Tsalagi
(Cherokee), Choktaw, Cajun French (1 mill.!), Mennonite and non-Mennonite
Low Saxon, Pennsylvania German, Gullah and other languages of wider spread
or higher concentration can get their hands on Laotian material, not on
material in their own languages (and this includes language communities that
did not *choose* to be a part of the country).  But again, Críostóir, these
are "only" cases of bureaucratic mindlessness.

Heather (above):

> But only because people make it so.
>
> Of it self it is just a means to an end - communication
>
> The value / importance real or imaginary laid upon it is put there by
> people.

Hear, hear!

> It is amusing/strange/ obvious/ interesting that it is exactl;y this same
> group of people who have led the revival of Welsh in Wales ... in order to
> secure a good job one has to be a Welsh speaker.
>
> If any one is to blame it is the middle classes who seem to think that a
> single language will land a better job AND who do not understand that bi-
> or even polylingualism is a natural human talent.
>
> Those parents who have supported understanding and skillls in many
> langauges / dialects are the ones to be lauded, so that others can be
> shown
> that the idea of 'giving up ' one language for another is NOT the way
> forward.

Hear, hear, over and over again!  But I think I'm repeating myself, I think.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 21:19:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:19:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.141917.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (06) [E]

At 12:16 PM 04/10/05 -0700, Ron wrote:
>It took me decades of maturing to arrive at a place where I can feel that
>with such a step I am not endorsing current predominant attitudes,
>policies,
>laws, government officials and the like, but am officially tying the knot
>with an idea and an ideal that is worthy, though unfortunately far from
>being realized.  The official rejection of hierarchies ("All men are born
>equal"), assurance of fundamentally guaranteed freedoms, and separation
>from
>the state yet freedom of religion, are good enough for me, and so it should
>be if it was good enough for the likes of Albert Einstein and other great
>_mentshn_.  I suppose there's room for me somewhere in a pool with a span
>as
>wide as to accommodate the likes of  Richard Butler, Jerry Falwell, Noam
>Chomsky and Angela Davies,

You forgot Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau.  When the latter
was incarcerated for not paying tax that would be used for military
purposes (I'm a little foggy here, so bear with me), and was told that he
had to pay it because he was a "citizen", he wrote that he did not consider
himself a member of anything he did not join, and when the former paid him
a visit at the jail and asked him what he was doing in there, Thoreau
countered by asking Emerson what he was doing out there.

>This sort of thing is also what I had embraced
>in passionately outspoken, rough-and-tumble yet deeply compassionate,
>caring
>and incredibly generous Australia, something I greatly admire in Canada as
>well (though, of course, the latter two are not [yet] potentate-free).

Just in case you're not just having us on, this would really be a matter of
definition, wouldn't it?  Don't forget that Canada actually has more than
two major political parties, several of which are actually not controlled
by the military-industrial complex.

Anyway, I hold citizenship in both countries and am proud of
both.  Recalling my own Canadian swearing in of several years ago, I wish
you all the best at yours.

Ed Alexander

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Ed (above):

> Anyway, I hold citizenship in both countries and am proud of
> both.  Recalling my own Canadian swearing in of several years ago, I wish
> you all the best at yours.

Thanks, Ed.  It's not the first time for me, but I doubt that this time
around I will be given hugs and a red rose (which I got in Fremantle,
Western Australia).  Those folks I encountered this time did not strike me
as belonging to the touchy-feely kind.

Dual citizenship and more is becoming increasingly common (and most of the
ca. 100,000 Australians currently living in the US are expected to take
advantage of it).  Germans and many others, too, may now apply to retain
their citizenships after naturalization or may retain it by default.
Hopefully, this is the beginning of something better to come.  Alas, I doubt
I'll still be around when they simplify the paperwork to a single global
citizenship.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 00:14:57 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:14:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (09) [E/LS/German]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.171457.0700.>

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (04) [E]

Ah, but Ron, the US does have a language policy.

It isn't written, but it's extremely obvious. What would happen if a
congressman submitted legislation in Navajo to be voted on? Would the
President ever give his state of the nation speech exclusively in
Spanish? Is there a single law on the books written in Chinese?

The fact of the matter is, there is a sort of unwritten federal law
stating that all business of the government is to be conducted in
English and only English, with the exception of certain popular
interactions (for example, I believe the white house website is
bilingual).

Mark

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (07) [E]

 believe you can vote in Navajo, and I'm pretty sure you can take the
census in Navajo.

The main reason for this is because Navajo speakers make up the
majority in two counties, and therefore make up the majority of voters
for a particular congressional district.

The irony here is that most Navajos cannot read nor write Navajo. This
is because the same man who invented the current Navajo writing system
was responsible for shooting their sheep and ordering others to shoot
their sheep in the late 1800s.

Mark

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (07) [E]

To put this in perspective: if English had been an unwritten language
until a year or so ago, when a writing system was invented by Osama
bin Laden, do you think most Americans would learn the writing system?

Mark

On Apr 10, 2005 4:03 PM, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe you can vote in Navajo, and I'm pretty sure you can take the
> census in Navajo.
>
> The main reason for this is because Navajo speakers make up the
> majority in two counties, and therefore make up the majority of voters
> for a particular congressional district.
>
> The irony here is that most Navajos cannot read nor write Navajo. This
> is because the same man who invented the current Navajo writing system
> was responsible for shooting their sheep and ordering others to shoot
> their sheep in the late 1800s.
>
> Mark

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]

Sehr geehrte Lowlander-Freunde, lieber Reinhard,

der Winter ist zwar auch in Nordeuropa im Rückzuge begriffen, dennoch begebe
ich mich mit diesem Beitrag nach einigem Zögern noch einmal wissentlich,
vorsätzlich aufs Glatteis. Damit ich mir aber keine zu argen Blessuren hole,
bediene ich mich nach längerer Zeit mal wieder ausschließlich des
Hochdeutschen.

> P.S.: But then again, perhaps I *am* just weird as a result of being
> European, Australian and (as of next Monday afternoon) American at the
> same
> time.

Dir, lieber Reinhard, zunächst an dieser Stelle meinen Glückwunsch zur
endgültigen Globalität, die Du durch Verleihung  der US-amerikanischen
Staatsbürgerschaft nun erreichen wirst!
Ich persönlich empfinde es übrigens aus dem Herzen gesprochen, dass Du, aus
Deiner momentanen Sicht der Welt, von Dir selbst als einem Europäer sprichst
und nicht als "Deutschem"- so habe auch ich es empfunden, wenn ich
transatlantisch oder transpazifisch weilte. Die kleinlichen europäischen
Grenzen waren plötzlich weit fort: statt dessen spürte ich unwillkürlich die
kulturelle Gemeinsamkeit der europäischen "Stämme" und deren zwei- oder mehr
-tausendige gemeinsame Geschichte. All die vergangenen Auseinandersetzungen
der Duodezstaaten erschienen mir dann lächerlich und vielfach unbegreiflich.

Gestatte mir jedoch bereits hier die Frage, wie lange Du, als sprachlich und
sozial integrierter Akademiker, auf Deine Einbürgerung hast warten müssen?
Im Einzelnen weiß ich nur wenig über Verfahrensweisen und Vorschriften der
US-amerikan. Behörden für Einwanderer, aber: selbst dort, in einem
traditionellen Einwandererland, ist wohl nicht jeder unter allen Umständen
jederzeit willkommen.

Ich beziehe mich dabei auf Deine Worte:
> When I visit Europe and share such observations and views, people tend to
> react with attitudes like "it's really more complex than you know" and
> "it's
> easy for you to judge, being used to living in melting pots."  The
> underlying tenor tends to be that places like the Americas and Australia
> have *chosen* diversity, that it is self-imposed,...

Kein Pole, kein Niederländer, kein Finne, kein Ungar, kein Neapolitaner oder
Portugiese (alle diese Nationen leben hier, in unserem kleinen Dorf von
gerade mal ca. 1.000 Einwohnern, weitab von jeder City, friedlich,
freundlich in toller Nachbarschaft zusammen) wird je wirklich ein Problem
haben, sich in Deutschland wohl zu fühlen. In Deutschland fühlt sich nur DER
unwohl, der deutsch (-europäische) Sitten, Freizügigkeit, offene, liberale
Lebensart, vielleicht Religionsausübung (oder eben keine; weltweit existiert
wohl nirgendwo eine so starke Areligiosität wie hier) ablehnt, gar bekämpft.

> and we see it in Germany's persistence in labeling and
> treating generations of German-born Turks and others as "foreigners,"
Wenn klein-asiatischen Einwanderern, besonders deren Frauen und Mädchen,
noch in der dritten Generation wider ihren Willen von Seiten ihrer Familie
(!!) verwehrt wird, die deutsche Sprache zu erlernen, geht es gewiss schon
lange nicht mehr um die staatsabhängige Toleranz oder Intöleranz ihrer
Sprache und Eigenheiten.(In unserem Dorf leben aber auch Nicht-Europäer:
zum Beispiel eine Frau aus der Türkei- sie ist nicht zur Lehrerin
ausgebildet- unterrichtet unsere Kinder auf der Grundschule in der deutschen
Sprache.)

Wer nach "Amerika" (oder Australien, oder Argentinien, oder ...) auswandert,
ist bereit zu Integration und Veränderung.
Er/sie weiß: Du musst zupacken, Dir die Gewohnheiten, Bräuche, Strukturen
aneignen, willst Du Fuß fassen- die Systeme dieser Auswanderungs-Länder
verlangen es von Dir!
Anders hier: europäische Sozialgesetze sind intern, national, bestenfalls
inner-europäisch konzipiert, nicht an diese gerade jetzt, in unserer Zeit
geschehenden Völkerwanderungen der Neuzeit angepasst.
Asylanten-Gastfreundschaft  wird wirtschaftlich missbraucht, und der
Integrationswille fehlt häufig. Das kann nicht dauerhaft funktionieren.

> In my experience, the average European still considers diversity within
> one
> country a negative thing,
Ist denn aber nicht gerade Deutschland ein gutes Beispiel für die Tatsache,
dass ein "Misch-Masch" verschiedenster Kulturen und Strömungen selbst zum
Vervielfacher von Kultur wird? Immer wieder wird auf Grund jener man gerade
mal 100 Jahre währenden, unseligen und schließlich im  unsäglichen
Nationalsozialismus mündenden  "Deutschtümelei" (von ca. 1850 bis 1950)
vergessen, dass dieses Land im Herzen Europas liegt, stets ein "Transitland"
war ("Tyskland"= "das Land dazwischen[??]"), von jeher und gerade heute
wieder ganz besonders. NICHTS wären wir wirtschaftlich ohne unsere Nachbarn,
ohne den Handel mit ihnen, und ohne den kulturellen Austausch weltweit
hätten wir vermutlich nicht einmal die sog. "hochdeutsche" Sprache.
Und vielleicht würde es weder mich noch einen Reinhard Hahn geben, mit all
unseren quer und längs durch Europa verlaufenden Wurzeln?!

Zurück zur Sprache dieser, ach so geschundenen Minderheiten in Deutschland:

In Norddeutschland scheint die Erkenntnis langsam Fuß zu fassen, dass etwas
für Niederdeutsch getan werden muss. Es gibt viele Lippenbekenntnisse, aber
es wird noch VIIIEEL zu wenig getan!

Die Bayern sorgen für sich selbst.

Die Sachsen (und ihre Sprache) vermag vermutlich nichts und niemand
auszurotten.

Die Sorben haben anscheinend noch nichts begriffen; es gibt so gut wie keine
jungen Menschen mehr, die ihre Sprache pflegen wollen.

Die Dänen haben eine Minderheit, die zuweilen Majorität bedeutet.

Die Zigeuner haben heute noch ihre eigenständige Sprache; hat sich in den
letzten 150 Jahren nur wenig geändert. Nur heissen sie heute, in bestimmten
"sprachklinischen" Kreisen, Roma und Sinti.

Die Niederländer sprechen mit uns hier "neddersassisch", manche auch
"neddersaksisch", und in der zweiten Generation nicht einmal mehr "Platt",
sondern nur noch akzentfreies Hochdeutsch...

Italiener und andere Südeuropäer sind ob ihres liebenswerten Akzentes aus
der Werbung für Konsumprodukte längst nicht mehr wegzudenken.

Na, und- (siehe oben)  offen, tolerant und integrativ aufgewachsene
Türk(inn)en können besser Deutsch als mancher Grundschullehrer! Die müssen
nur noch "Platt" lernen :-)!

Wenn eine Sprache stirbt, so wie von Vielen in diesem Kreise zu Recht
befürchtet, ist es kein Problem der Staatsgewalt, der Schulen, der
Universitäten, sondern rührt fast ausschließlich daher, dass die Menschen,
die  Eigenheiten und Gebräuche vergessen haben, nichts davon mehr
weitergeben, "tradieren". Sie sind zu faul, oft wirklich nur zu faul, um mit
ihren Kindern überhaupt noch und generell zu sprechen, geschweige denn in
der Sprache oder Tradition ihrer Eltern.

In Deutschland ist dies vielleicht besonders ausgeprägt und natürlich auch
ein Erbe der sogenannten Nachkriegs-Generation, aber:

eine sprachlose Gesellschaft? Das ist offenbar eine Tendenz in allen
westlichen Kulturen, mit wahrhaft fürchterlichen sozio-kulturellen
Konsequenzen!

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

PS:
To all Lowlanders, not grewn up within this language since drinking their
mother's milk: I am sorry for You; German is a real difficile language,
specially when it's written by J"J"M! Please forgive me.
JJM

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks for sharing your views and observations (above), Mark and Jonny.

Mark, we have mentioned before that the US have _de facto_ language
policies.  However, making them into actual laws or even enshrining them in
the constitution, as English-Only lobbyists demand, would be a totally
different matter in my opinion.  There's a good deal of difference between
_de-facto_ status and legal status.  As things stand now, the door is
legally open for Spanish or whatever other language to take the _de facto_
lead position away from English given demographic changes to this end.  This
may never happen should English be made *legally* dominant, not even if 80
or more percent of the population has Spanish (or whatever) as their first
language and pretty much everyone can use it.  This is what the English-Only
movement wants to estabilish, this and, by way of essentially monolingual
educational policies (as recently instituted in California and elsewhere,
i.e., turning native Spanish-speaking children into predominant users of
English), preventing the continued increase of Spanish usage in this
country, thereby guaranteeing continued dominance of English, come hell or
high water, no matter what demographic changes may come about.

However, interesting though this may be, allow me to turn to another
interesting matter, one I had been looking out for for quite some time.  It
concerns the status of _Plautdietsch_, namely Mennonite Low Saxon ("Low
German").  I just received the latest issue of _Plautdietsch-Frind_ (a great
periodical, http://www/plautdietsch-freunde.de), and it contains a
noteworthy article (in Plautdietsch) by Peter Wiens
(info at plautdietsch-freunde.de), editor of the magazine and president of
Plautdietsch-Freunde.  Peter is one of the sweetest language activists you
can ever hope to know, and I assume he will forgive me for passing his
article on to you followed by my English translation (admittedly written
down on the fly).  In this article, Peter concentrates on Germany's
situation, not on the fact that there are numerous other Plautdietsch
communities all over the world, especially in the Americas and in the former
Soviet states.  Within a few short years following the collapse of the Iron
Curtain, the Plautdietsch-speaking population in Germany grew from "further
ran" to the lead position in terms of numbers.

Dankscheen on bravo, leewe Peeta!  Dankscheen on bravo fe aules, waut Du
vesäkje on bestriede deist! Wie "Nadadietsche" -- Menniste on uck
Nich-Menniste -- kjenne Die daut nienich nuach loone, leewe Frint.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

NADADIETSCH
NADA PODUMATJ

Send dee Plautdietsche een ajchta Deel vonne groote Nadadietschgrupp?
Ooda doch eea eene ejne Mindaheite-Grupp?

von Peeta Wiens, Oerlinghausen

In Dietschlaunt lewe vondoag onjefea 200.000 plautdietsche Mensche. Wan
«onse Lied» no eare Identitet jefroagt woare, kome veschiedne Auntwode:
«Russlauntdietsche», «Mennoniete», manch mol soogoa «Russe» en foaken uck
eenfach bloos «Dietsche». Daut dise Mensche doabie uck Plautdietsche send,
daut es selwstvestentlich, woat oba selde jesajcht, wan maun frajcht: To
woone Grupp von Mensche jehescht du?

Wan maun daut jenau nemmt, jehere dee Plautdietsche en Dietschlaunt tom Deel
to diese veea Gruppe:

1. Russlauntdietsche Omsiedla
   (weajen Migratsjoonsjeschicht)

2. Mennoniete
   (weajnem Gloowe aum Aunfang vonne Jeschicht)

3. Nadadietsche en Dietschlaunt
   (weajne Sproakjeschicht)

4. Mindaheite-Gruppe en Dietschlauntj/Euroopa
   (ejne Sproak en Kultua vondoag)

Russlauntdietsche send dee meschte vonne Menniste en Dietschlaunt soowiesoo.
Onjefea 10 Prozent von dee ewa 2 Milljoone Omsiedla en Dietschlaunt habe
eenen plautdietschen Hinjagrunt. Dise Lied nane sich oba bloos noch selde
Mennoniete. Goot dee Halft von ahn feelt sich ewrehaupt met tjeene Tjoatj
meea vebunge, dee aundre Halft jehet to dee vele russlauntdietsche
Jemeindes, woone foaken uck Baptiste (-Breeda) en selde noch Mennoniete
(-Breeda) heete; foaken nant maun sich uck eenfach Frei-Evangelisch.

Waut aul dise veschiedne Plautdietsche emma noch to eene Grupp moakt, es dee
Fakt, daut se Plautdietsche send. Ooda weens von plautdietsche Ellre kome.
Wan maun sich nu oppe Sproakjeschicht konzentret, send dee Plautdietsche een
Deel von dee runt acht Milljoone Plattdeutsche (Niederdeutsch-Sprecher) en
Dietschlaunt. Dee Linguiste send sich eenich, daut Plautdietsch eene Oat
Nadadietsch es. Oba doch lidje tweschen «onse Lied» en dee dietsche
«plattdeutsche» Nobasch zimlich groote Welte: een poa hundat Joa, gaunz
veschiedne Mentalitete, dee plautdietscha Dialekt es no dee Meeninj von vele
eene ejne Sproak jeworde... Send dee Plautdietsche en Dietschlaunt ooda
Euroopa vleicht doch eene ejne Mindaheite-Grupp soo aus dee Sorben, dee
Friesen ooda vleicht een bet soo aus dee Zejone?

Soo ooda soo: Aus em Jaunua 2005 dee niea «Bundesrat für Niederdeutsch» en
Bremen to sienem Haulfjoarestrafe toopkaum, we tom eschten Mol eena von
«onse Lied» doabie. Enne Presse vom Institut für niederdeutsche Sprache
stunt aum 2. Feebua: «Zum ersten Mal nahm ein Vertreter der Sprecher des
Mennoniten-Niederdeutschen [Peeta Wiens] als Gast an einer Bundesratssitzung
teil.» Enne neachste Tiet woat dee Veastaunt von Plautdietsch-Freunde e.V.,
dee eensje offizielle Organisatsjoon fe Plautdietsch en Dietschlaunt, sich
met Vetreda von Nadadietsch en EBLUL (Mindaheite-Sproake en Euroopa)
toopsate.

Wan wie Plautdietsche uck sproakpolitisch waut eretje welle, sull wie ons
onbedinjt om eenen offiziellen Status bie onse Oobrichtjeite tjemmre:
entweda aus Deel vom Nadadietschen, ooda aus ejne Mindaheita-Grupp unja dem
besondren Schutz von europeische Sproake-Charta...

***

NADADIETSCH
NADA PODUMATJ

Are Plautdietsch speakers really a part of the larger community of Low
Germans?
Or rather just a minority in their own right?

By Peter Wiens, Oerlinghausen
(translated by R. F. Hahn)

Currently, about 200,000 Plautdietsch people live in Germany. Whenever "our
folks" are being asked about their identity you'll get different types of
responses" "Russia Germans," "Mennonites," sometimes even "Russians" and
oftentimes simply "Germans." It goes without saying that these people are
Plautdietsch as well. But rarely are they asked, "To which group do you
belong?"

Strictly speaking, Plautdietsch people in Germany belong partly or wholly to
the following four groups:

1. German-Russian Migrants
   (due to migration history)

2. Mennonites
   (due to religion in early history)

3. Low Germans in Germany
   (due to language history)

4. Minority in Germany/Europe
   (own language and culture today)

Most Mennonites in Germany are Russia Germans anyway. About 10 percent of
over two million repatriated persons in Germany have a Plautdietsch
background. These people rarely call themselves Mennonites. More than half
of them don't feel connected with any church. The rest frequents the many
Russia German congregations in which you often encounter Baptists
(Brethren), rarely Mennonites (Brethren), and the label "Free Evangelical"
is used often enough.

What makes all these diverse Plautdietsch people still one community is the
fact that they are Plautdietsch, or because they are descendants of such.
When we focus on language history we find that these Plautdietsch people are
a part of about eight million Low Germans in Germany. Linguists unanimously
agree that Plautdietsch is a type of Low German. However, there is a
considerable distance between "our folks" and the German "Low German"
neighbors: a few centuries, very different mentalities, and Plautdietsch has
grown into a [separate] language in the opinion of many … Might the
Plautdietsch people of Germany or Europe be a minority in their own right, a
bit like Sorbs, Frisians or even Gypsies?

In any case, when the new "Federal Council for Low German" convened for its
biannual meeting in January 2005, it was joined, for the first time, by "our
folks." According to a February 2 press release by the Institute for Low
German Language, "for the first time, a representative of the speakers of
Mennonite Low German [Peter Wiens] participated as a guest at the meeting of
the Federal Council." In the foreseeable future, the steering committee of
Plautdietsch-Freunde e.V. – the only official organization for Plautdietsch
in Germany – will meet with representatives of Low German of EBLUL (Minority
Languages in Europe).

If we Plautdietsch people wish to accomplish anything in language politics
we definitely need to see about official status, either as a part of Low
German or as a minority group in its own right, under the protection of the
European Language Charter …

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 04:36:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:36:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (10) [E/LS/German]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.213632.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: language politics

[Find English bits farther down, after German and Low Saxon niceties.]

Jonny wrote:

> der Winter ist zwar auch in Nordeuropa im Rückzuge begriffen, dennoch
> begebe
> ich mich mit diesem Beitrag nach einigem Zögern noch einmal wissentlich,
> vorsätzlich aufs Glatteis.

Nu Du dryst un eerlich noug weyrst üm Dy in de loywen-kuul tou trouen, loyv'
ik Dy man bloots heyl sachtens tou byten. Nümst my dat den sachs nich vör
ungoud, ook nich dat ik 't up Ingelsch dou. Weetst ja, dat ik Dy lykers leyv
hev, lyk as al de annern Leyglanders (tou minst nu wy us "zusammengerauft"
hebt).

> Dir, lieber Reinhard, zunächst an dieser Stelle meinen Glückwunsch zur
> endgültigen Globalität, die Du durch Verleihung  der US-amerikanischen
> Staatsbürgerschaft nun erreichen wirst!

Wees bedankt, leyve Jonny! Büst 'n leyven keyrl.

> Ich persönlich empfinde es übrigens aus dem Herzen gesprochen, dass Du,
> aus
> Deiner momentanen Sicht der Welt, von Dir selbst als einem Europäer
> sprichst
> und nicht als "Deutschem"- so habe auch ich es empfunden, wenn ich
> transatlantisch oder transpazifisch weilte. Die kleinlichen europäischen
> Grenzen waren plötzlich weit fort: statt dessen spürte ich unwillkürlich
> die
> kulturelle Gemeinsamkeit der europäischen "Stämme" und deren zwei- oder
> mehr
> -tausendige gemeinsame Geschichte. All die vergangenen
> Auseinandersetzungen
> der Duodezstaaten erschienen mir dann lächerlich und vielfach
> unbegreiflich.

Is ja klaar.  Dat vinger-wysen is dummerhaftig.  Wichtig is nu de toukumst,
dat so 'n kraam ny nich wedder maloyrt, un daar wegen moet wy by 't slapen
jümmers eyn oog' apen holden. Un mit "wy" meyn ik dey heyle minschheyt.
Duytschland het ja maal by 't wed-rönnen _�  la macabre_ d'n eyrsten prys
wunnen, man deyl-namen hebd dey meyrsten, un in "oever-sey" hebt sey de
inbarenen minschen mit veel unrecht an-vaten.  Mit steynen schul keyn eyn in
't glashuus smyten.

> Gestatte mir jedoch bereits hier die Frage, wie lange Du, als sprachlich
> und
> sozial integrierter Akademiker, auf Deine Einbürgerung hast warten müssen?

The minimum time between immigration and naturalization in the US (in
ordinary cases) is five years, in Australia three years.  In Australia I did
wait and acted right away (because I was totally in love with the country,
still am), while in the US I let 22 years go by, waiting for my own
readiness.

> Ich beziehe mich dabei auf Deine Worte:
> > When I visit Europe and share such observations and views, people tend
> > to
> > react with attitudes like "it's really more complex than you know" and
> > "it's
> > easy for you to judge, being used to living in melting pots."  The
> > underlying tenor tends to be that places like the Americas and Australia
> > have *chosen* diversity, that it is self-imposed,...
>
> Kein Pole, kein Niederländer, kein Finne, kein Ungar, kein Neapolitaner
> oder
> Portugiese (alle diese Nationen leben hier, in unserem kleinen Dorf von
> gerade mal ca. 1.000 Einwohnern, weitab von jeder City, friedlich,
> freundlich in toller Nachbarschaft zusammen) wird je wirklich ein Problem
> haben, sich in Deutschland wohl zu fühlen. In Deutschland fühlt sich nur
> DER
> unwohl, der deutsch (-europäische) Sitten, Freizügigkeit, offene, liberale
> Lebensart, vielleicht Religionsausübung (oder eben keine; weltweit
> existiert
> wohl nirgendwo eine so starke Areligiosität wie hier) ablehnt, gar
> bekämpft.

Of course!  And anyone opposed to the laws of the land.

> > and we see it in Germany's persistence in labeling and
> > treating generations of German-born Turks and others as "foreigners,"
> Wenn klein-asiatischen Einwanderern, besonders deren Frauen und Mädchen,
> noch in der dritten Generation wider ihren Willen von Seiten ihrer Familie
> (!!) verwehrt wird, die deutsche Sprache zu erlernen, geht es gewiss schon
> lange nicht mehr um die staatsabhängige Toleranz oder Intöleranz ihrer
> Sprache und Eigenheiten.

The question you need to ask about Islamic residents of Germany is "Are they
breaking any laws?"  In the case of those that do, incarcerate or extradite
them!  If the answer is "No," then what right is it of yours, of mine or of
anyone else's to judge them, their beliefs, their dress, their language use,
their family dynamics or anything else? By judging them beyond the legal
sphere, you are in fact illustrating what I mean by "ethno-nationalistic
cultural and linguistic dictates," crassly exemplified by France's recent
outlawing of Islamic dress in state schools (with outlawing of Jewish
yarmulkes and Christian crosses larger than so and so many centimeters being
a mere afterthought for legal reasons and placating of international
criticism).  I live in the part of Seattle with the highest Islamic
concentration (15 minutes' walk away from a mosque).  I see scores of veiled
women running around all the time.  And who cares?

> Wer nach "Amerika" (oder Australien, oder Argentinien, oder ...)
> auswandert,
> ist bereit zu Integration und Veränderung.
> Er/sie weiß: Du musst zupacken, Dir die Gewohnheiten, Bräuche, Strukturen
> aneignen, willst Du Fuß fassen- die Systeme dieser Auswanderungs-Länder
> verlangen es von Dir!

They are not "adapting" the way you are telling us people do in "traditional
immigration countries," neither are many other people of various background.
And that's just fine with most Americans these days.  Things have changed:
"being American" does not depend on your dress or religion.  In fact, by
being "different" you exemplify the freedom America is priding itself in
pursuing.  At least in this day and age this is not determined by
ethno-cultural dominance and dictates, by going to the same churches, eating
at the same diners and baking the same type of apple pie.

After 9/11, a guy drove his truck into our local mosque.  For weeks
afterwards, we, the neighbors of all sorts of backgrounds, took turns in
guarding the mosque day and night, and a sea of flowers gathered around it.
We see men and women in Islamic attire go and come from our mosque everyday.
On Saturday, people in Sabbath attire walk to and from our synagogues, some
of them conservative orthodox and dressed accordingly, for generations.
When I visit Chinatown (at least once a week) it's almost like being back in
China, and I hear very little English spoken, and sometimes I stop by a Zen
hall for meditation.  No, Jonny, this adaptation thing isn't as it used to
be, and yet, these people are American, Canadian, Australian or whatever.

> Anders hier: europäische Sozialgesetze sind intern, national, bestenfalls
> inner-europäisch konzipiert, nicht an diese gerade jetzt, in unserer Zeit
> geschehenden Völkerwanderungen der Neuzeit angepasst.

Indeed.  They are ethnically based, ethno-nationalist, where one ethnic
group wants to dictate the way of life, beliefs and language of both
newcomers and indigenous minorities.

Jonny, it is simply a pipedream and a cop-out to say that European countries
are not immigration countries.  People immigrate to them every single day,
not only "guest workers" and "asylum seekers" but also other types, not only
from Third World countries either.  I know several Americans, Canadians,
Australians and South Africans who have immigrated to Germany, for instance,
not to mention scores of folks from other European countries.  (Why, many of
our own Lowlanders are living proof.)  The "repatriation" of "Russia
Germans" has been a form of immigration also, as is the influx of hi-tech
specialists from all over the world.  Turks and others were *asked* to
immigrate as temporary workers, beginning with the 1960s.  So they stayed,
in part because they intermarried, managed to become naturalized, establish
businesses, etc.  There are now Germany-specific Turkish and Kurdish
dialects.  Those people are not going to go away, nor do their children want
to be anywhere else.  Just wake up and smell the coffee and admit that it's
OK to be Turkish German, African German, Islamic German and the like!
Germany and other European countries aren't that difference from the "New"
World, not in this day and age.

The world is changing fast.  Citizenships and borders are becoming less and
less important.  Today's pools of emigrants may become tomorrow's favorite
immigration destinations.  Aside from its controversy, "outsourcing," is now
a fact.  More and more Americans, both job seekers and retirees, are moving
to Mexico, and many are now acquiring Mexican citizenship.  More and more
"Westerners" are moving to India to benefit from the current outsourcing
boom, in part because they are needed to train Indians to do business with
the West, and many are starting their own businesses there.  I know several
people (including two Germans) that have answered the call, and some of them
look like they will stay there, having married Indians and raising children
there and being quite happy.

> Zurück zur Sprache dieser, ach so geschundenen Minderheiten in
> Deutschland:

Oh, come on!  No one said anything of the sort.

I think we all agree that we live in an age of accelerating globalization.
As far as I am concerned, the challenge is to take advantage of it (and in a
way we are doing it on this list) while at the same time creating an
atmosphere in which languages and cultures can not only survive but in fact
thrive, irrespective of their "sizes" and locations, irrespective of whether
they are indigenous or imported.  In my opinion, the basic requirements are
respect and compassion, appreciation of diversity, and an end to
territorialism and ethnocentrism.

Noug preysterd!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:24:02 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:24:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (01) [LS]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.092402.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]


Ik wull all Duennerdagh op de fraagh oever dat "knief" antern, boen blot bit
voendaaghs no ni darto kaamen. Een "knief" bruk wi no wul in Rendsborg man
is dat een groot 'knief", darmet kans een brot snieden un annere grote
stuecken, een "mess" is luetter un wi bruk dat alleen bi't eten, geis op
reisen denn nuemms gern een knief met denn darmet kans alens tweisnieden, in
restaurant kreegs een mess, dar woell man jaa een beten voerneem ween. Min
moder haett mi dat no soelvens so bibroech, een mess bruks bi't eten, een
knief bruks to'n brot snieden. Vun dar meen ik meist dat "knief" een ol
sassisch word is wat ok de Angelsassen metnaam heb no Engeland, mess is ers
in't 19ste jaahunnert naa Slesvig-Holsten kaamen met "voerneemere
etens-manieren", as man dat denn so sehen woell. Froeher op lannen harrn se
blot een lepel un knief to'n eten, voer "boenen un beeren", speck snieden
oder fleederbeersupp bruks keen "Gabel und Messer".

Groeten

Helge

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners,

uns nieget LS-Woord vandoog:

*britzen* - E: to flit, to run/drive fast; G: flitzen, schnell
laufen/fahren.

Waard noch veel bruukt in uns LS ("Hei britz' lous mit siin neu' Meschin." -
"He rushed away with his new bike.").

Is dat woll verwandt an E: 'breeze', G: 'Brise'?

Kennt Ji annern Lowlanners dat ook?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Jonny,

I neem an, dat wourd is verwandt mit "birsen" (metathesis).

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:26:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:26:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.092611.0700.>

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From: jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com>
Subject: Names

>From: Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
>
>I gather that when Israel was founded, and parents wanted to give the first
>generation kids Hebrew but non-biblical names, there was a fashion for
>"Bear", "Lion" etc for boys, and flowers for girls.  Interesting that
>English-speakers still use flowers for girls......
>
Gems for girls are or were at any rate popular.  My mother has counsins,
all sisters incidentally, who were named Ruby, Opal, and Pearl.
Jim Krause

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:27:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:27:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Publications" 2005.04.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.092730.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tribute, 2005.04.10


From: Arthur A. Jones

Lieve Laaglanners,

Just to show y'all that I actually do something besides heave linguistic
water balloons at Lowlanders, we done wrote one o' these here paper thangs.

Our paper comparing US with EU methods in the "war on terror" has been
published online by the German company Jurawelt.

Here's the link:

www.jurawelt.com/aufsaetze/international/10188

We have a book in preparation that expands on the theme. Maybe we will write
it in Gothic and Low Saxon to avoid FBI/CIA scrutiny!

Met friandelyke groeten,

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:47:28 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:47:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.11 (04) [E]
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (08) [E]


Ron wrote about the wonderful diversity and acceptance encountered in the
USA...
...and is forgetting that he lives in Seattle, one of the most liberal and
open cities in the country.

I lived on the U.S. West Coast myself for 8 years, including several years
in Portland, Oregon, which is very open and welcoming, and also a year in
Corvallis, Oregon, one of my favourite places in the world.

But then, I also lived on a rural farm for a long time... and I can tell
you that, outside of the big cities, and not only there, things are much
different. I felt that everybody expected I couldn't wait to become
American, shave my legs and whatnot, join a Baptist church and "worship"
every Sunday, listen to Garth Brooks, disfigure myself with nips and tucks
and heavy make-up, raise the pitch of my voice by an octave, coo over
"cute sweaters", and watch all their mind-numbing TV shows. The same is
actually
true for my urban neighbourhood. Ron, you are a) moving in university
circles, and seem to be living in an ivory tower - things tend look a
whole lot better from way up high, and b) a man, which makes a world of a
difference even if you do not perceive it. "Peer" pressure (as if I ever
considered American suburban housewives my peers) is a lot heavier on
those of us who are perceived as "female" by the world. Men are rather
expected
to distinguish themselves, be different in some way or other. Women are
expected to be lookers first and foremost, keep a spotless household next,
and then maybe express themselves through their cooking or the kind of
figurines they collect for their curio cabinet. And these expectations -
imposed by women on other women, mind you - I have found much worse in the
USA than anywhere else in the world. And yes, of course I know there are
exceptions. I was always ready to burst into tears of gratitude whenever I
met one. Usually, though, they were foreigners, too.

It was even worse for my children in school; being taught the "American
way" from childhood on comes close to a brainwashing, and my daughters were
ostracized because they resisted and remained actual individuals who chose
brain over looks, and danced to their own tune. Being German/Dutch made it
worse, of course, because it made them even more "different". Luckily,
they did acquire a few close friends over the years, but on the whole, being
different in any way (other than the accepted ways of being different,
which may include being Latino, black, or perhaps even gay, just as long as
you're athletic - at any rate, belonging to a closely defined group) was an
unforgivable crime.

That said, I, too, never felt particularly German while in exile (I had to
stay there for five more years than I had planned before they let me take
my "American" daughter out of the country - talk about a totalitarian
system), but very, very European instead. Can't wait until there is such a
thing as
an official European citizenship.

Sorry, just had to get this off my chest. Ron, I'm glad for you that you
could keep your Australian citizenship as well.

Gabriele Kahn


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

You're right, Gabriele, in pointing out that I neglected to make abundantly
clear that there is at least as much local variety in the United States and
Canada as there is in Europe. The fact remains, though, that there is a
difference between local cultures and the law of the land, which was my
point, also between state and federal law, that any law violating the basic
freedoms and the "pursuit of happiness" will have a hard time standing up
supreme court scrutiny, and this includes those pertaining to religion,
dress and language.

As for the "ivory tower" thing, I'm glad you said "seem," because you have
no way of knowing about my movements and social life when I'm off work and
off list.  In actual fact, being intensely interested in people I make it my
mission to move around a good variety of circles, and, yes, I have come
across all sorts, in and out of town.  Seeing the big picture requires
seeing the details first.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:55:49 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:55:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language status" 2005.04.11 (05) [D]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.095549.0700.>

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From: Sebastian Fuchs <S.Fuchs at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language status" 2005.04.10 (02) [D/E]

Ook in regionale kranten in NRW was vanmorgen dit bericht te
lezen. Het vermelde lerarentekort is echter geen tekort aan
mensen die docent Nederlands willen worden, het is veeleer een
tekort aan banen en formatieplaatsen. Scholen hebben vaak niet
voldoende formatieplaatsen om op te vraag naar Nederlands in het
vakkenpakket te reageren.

Trouwens, het is me ook niet duidelijk, waar het cijfer 400
vandaan komt. Dit cijfer werd al jaren geleden bereikt.
Waarschijnlijk zijn dit de cijfers van een instituut, maar in
NRW zijn er drie, waarvan twee leraren Nederlands opleiden: het
Institut fr Niederlndische Philologie aan de universiteit te
Keulen en het Institut fr Niederlndische Philologie aan de
universiteit van Mnster. Allebei hebben al sinds een paar jaar
samen veel meer dan 500 geregistreerde studenten voor zover ik
weet.

Sebastian Fuchs

>  106     Teletekst za 09 apr
>
>  Nederlands populairder in Duitsland
>
>  MÜNSTER In de Duitse deelstaat Noord-
>  Rijnland-Westfalen kiezen steeds meer
>  studenten voor het vak Nederlands.Op de
>  middelbare scholen volgen zo'n 16.000
>  leerlingen Nederlandse les.
>
>  In het hoger onderwijs is het aantal
>  studenten Nederlands de afgelopen vijf
>  jaar verdubbeld,tot 400.Er is dan ook
>  een tekort aan leraren.
>
>  Omgekeerd is er minder belangstelling:
>  het aantal Nederlandse studenten Duits
>  is twee tot drie keer zo laag als het
>  aantal Duitse studenten Nederlands aan
>  de universiteit van Münster alleen al.
>  Volgens deskundigen vinden de meeste
>  Nederlanders Duits te moeilijk.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:59:05 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:59:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.095905.0700.>

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From: jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com>
Subject: Language Politics

>From: Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
>
>I believe English will become an "Esperanto for everyone"; it is already
>losing its role as "Language of the English", who are minority speakers of
>the language anyway.  It will then fall on us in England to strengthen and
>codify our own dialects, rather think of them as "slang", as is commonly
>believed.
>
I sometimes wonder if English will go the way of Latin: that is, after a
period of development will divide into several related but significantly
different languages, just as Latin spawned French, Spanish, Protugese,
Rumanian, Catalan, and others.
Jim Krause

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (09) [E/LS/German]

Mark Williamson wrote: "The fact of the matter is, there is a sort of
unwritten federal law stating that all business of the government is to be
conducted in English and only English, with the exception of certain popular
interactions..."

I work for the Texas Workforce Commission which is an agency of the State of
Texas.  I work in the department that administers Unemployment Insurance in
the state.  All, and I mean all, of our services are available in Spanish as
well as in English.  We go to great pains to have all posters, mailings, and
announcements translated into Spanish.  If someone calls our Tele-Centers,
the first thing they must do is select English or Spanish.  We have a staff
of about 700 people in 6 Tele-Centers across the state.  I would estimate
that about 50% of them are bi-lingual.  In fact, that's one of the preferred
skills when we interview applicants to work here.

I myself have written training material for our Spanish speaking staff to
help them use the unique words that our bureaucratic jargon includes.

In Texas all voting is bi-lingual, voter registration forms are bi-lingual.

One year ago we had our info booklet which is 29 pages translated into
Vietnamese, because we have such a large population of Vietnamese speakers.

Now, we are a state agency and not the federal government.  However, all of
our funding is from the U.S. Department of Labor, and they make no demands
on us about the language we use or don't use.

Before I entered my present position, I worked as a claimstaker (that's one
of our jargon words) in one of the Tele-Centers.  At the time, I took about
50-75% of my calls in Spanish.  On Mondays especially, I would often not
take an English call until after I had returned from my lunch break.

My experience sure contradicts any language policy in the United States.

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 18:43:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:43:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]
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From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]

As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie", searching
for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am not
going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

In Germanic we find demonstrative locatives in a right-adjoined positin
inside DPs (NPs), provided the DP starts with an attributive demonstrative
pronoun: Dutch examples are: "die man daar",  "die daar', "deze jongen
hier",  "deze hier", etc.

On the basis of "die man daar" and "die daar" we can predict "die-daar" and
maybe "die-hier" as possible attributive demonstratives. To the best of my
knowledge such demonstratives are not attested in Dutch, Frisian, or Dutch
or Frisian dialects. But they do exist in other varieties of Germanic:
Swedish "denhär" and "dendär" (sapologies if these are misspelled) and Edith
Raidt in her German book on Afrikaans mentions a southern German dialect
(Swabian I think) where "der da Stuhl" 'that there chair = that chair' is
grammatical.

"Hierdie" and "daardie" clearly are de novo creations and follow the rhe
rule for compounds (specification before head noun). They probably were
introduced into Afrikaans by L2 speakers who were used to a strong
resemblance of demonstrative pronouns and demonstrative adverbs (as for
instance in Malay: "rumah ini" 'house this' (in Bazaar Malay also "ini
rumah") and "di sini" 'here'. Similarly for Khoekhoe: "he" 'this, these' and
"heba" 'here'.).

Note that expanding "die" into "daardie" is hardly necessary (cf. German
"der Mann" 'the/that man'' --- depending upon the intonation), while "deze"
must have been a functionally acceptable form in Cape Dutch, because it is
clearly different from "die". What is more "deze" did not die until late in
the 19th century. In early Afrikaans we still find "dese' or "deuse".
Leftovers can be found in "duskant" 'this side of' and "vandeesweek" 'this
week'. The conclusion seems to be inevitable that an acrolectal "Germanic"
feature has been pushed out by a basilectal "Creole" feature.

Finally a remark on "Zealandic" I'd wish that subscribers to Lowlands
finally stop reviving this dead horse. It is absolutely clear that
Afrtikaans is "Hollandic" in so far as Dutch dialect features are concerned.
This applies both to sounds and to words: Zealandic is a southern dialect
and shares many words with Flemish dialects. [Where for instance is "kachel"
'foal' in Afrikaans?]  Furthermore, besides "ons" no other Zealandic pronoun
can be found in (the history of) Afrikaans. That is to say typical Zealandic
pronouns like "julder", "zulder", "wulder" and "joe'" [2PL, 3PL, 1PL and 2SG
resp.] do not show up in Afrikaans Similarly for typical phonological
properties of Zealandic: the strongly weakend [h] of Z does not show up in
Afrikaans. Z   does not dipthongize {i:] and [y] and so only has <ei> and
<ui-2>. Afrikaans, being Hollandic, is a diphthongizing variety. Etc. etc.

It is suprising that the Zealandic origins hypothesis, which experts --
whatever their ideas about the origins of Afrikaans -- have rejected long
ago still keeps popping up -- just like "Malayo-Portuguese", which is a
definite misnomer for "(Bazaar) Malay and Asian Creole Portuguese".

Hans den Besten

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for sharing your interesting and enlightening take on this, and
welcome to the speakers' corner!

The said structure does indeed occur in other Lowlands language varieties,
even within the "Low German" branch, albeit in reverse order.

In many Low Saxon varieties you can say _dey daar man_ or _de darige man_,
_dat hyr bouk_, etc.

As for the Zeelandic theory, I ask that folks who wish to respond to it do
so under "language varieties."

On a personal note, I don't see why we ought to consider only "either ... or
..." instead of a multi-origin possibility.  As most of us know, Dutch was
the official language at the Cape for a long, long time, and its influence
would have been continuous as a written and "high" language.  So the
existence of a very substantial Hollandic component can hardly be denied.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 03:10:46 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:10:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (08) [E]
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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (02) [E]

> From: jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> >From: Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
> >
> >I gather that when Israel was founded, and parents wanted to give the
> first
> >generation kids Hebrew but non-biblical names, there was a fashion for
> >"Bear", "Lion" etc for boys, and flowers for girls.  Interesting that
> >English-speakers still use flowers for girls......
> >
> Gems for girls are or were at any rate popular.  My mother has counsins,
> all sisters incidentally, who were named Ruby, Opal, and Pearl.
> Jim Krause

One gem name is exclusively male: Jasper.

English still uses boys' names from "Lion", such as Leo, Leon, and Leonard.
There is also CNN's Wolf Blitzer, and "Tiger" is a common nickname for boys,
usually used by their fathers ("Go get 'em, Tiger!").

Kevin Caldwell

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 03:13:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:13:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]
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From: kt4nn at juno.com <kt4nn at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

   Has English gone too far?  Why does that happen?
One could refer to the chronicles and get a general idea.
The point is that it is utilized with obscurities and may
well be a "killer".

Peter Sorensen.

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (06) [E]

Jim Krause wrote:
> I sometimes wonder if English will go the way of Latin: that is, after a
> period of development will divide into several related but significantly
> different languages, just as Latin spawned French, Spanish, Protugese,
> Rumanian, Catalan, and others.

Well, at first glance it would seem that English went quite the opposite
way, being compiled out of several different, identifiable languages,
instead of splitting up. Also, I think that the forming of such crass
regional or cultural differences would be almost impossible in the days of
globalisation and the Internet. But then, who knows where we stand two
thousand years from now...

But since you mentioned Latin: where did Latin actually come from? It can't
just have fallen out of the sky and then spread like a virus. Does anyone
know whether Latin is actually a true indigenous mediterranean language
(however one would define that), or did it at some point originate as some
kind of pidgin as well? I never really thought about this, forgive me if
this is an old hat for linguists.

My 11-year-old daughter recently participated in a school production of
Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream (her older sister was Oberon - not
enough boys!). So today, when she heard me gripe about an awful translation
of an ice hockey simulation game that I had to review, she said: "Don't
worry about it - you know, Puck shall restore amends." Ouch!

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (06) [E]

On 12/04/2005, at 2:59 AM,  jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com> wrote:

> I sometimes wonder if English will go the way of Latin: that is, after
> a
> period of development will divide into several related but
> significantly
> different languages,

The first signs of this evolvement are already there. American English
is already so close yet so far apart from the parent stream which
itself is also deteriorating at its lower levels. eg Awful stuff like
'Fab', 'Telly', and myriad other distortions. Even in Australia I
shudder when a couple of teenage girls start going 'Yeah but, no not.
Oh Yeah, Yeah, No.' For those of you who have watched BBC's wonderful
'Little Britain' Vickie Pollard is a classic case and her speech is for
real.
English is already adapted to languages so different the uninitiated
may not even recognise it as such.
West Africa's glorious varieties of  pidgin are good examples. eg 'Make
you go come get dis ting Atinga.' . 'Eh ! Dis monkey e go bite me
proprah !'.'As for me I go likeum toooooooo much.'.
Varieties of pidgin in the South Pacific are incomprehensible to
newcomers and that developed in Papua New Guinea has become an official
language.
You go read dis ting an you  see I go tok true. :-)
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 03:15:37 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:15:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.201537.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (01) [LS]

'n Obend, Helge (Tietz),

Du hesst schreeven:

> Een "knief" bruk wi no wul in Rendsborg man
> is dat een groot 'knief", darmet kans een brot snieden un annere grote
> stuecken, een "mess" is luetter un wi bruk dat alleen bi't eten

Freut mi düchdich, watt ji dat "Knief" vandoog jüst sou hevvt. Ick kenn 't
man noch eben ut miin Kinnertieden un wöör all bang, wat dit Woord ne meer
tou dennen "aktiven" Bruuk van uns Sprook höör'n deeh.

Ick glööv, wi hevvt dat ook sou bruukt: 'n "Knief" wöör 'n heel grout' Metz,
un 'n "Metz" wöör meerstentieds man jüst 'n (lütt) Metz.

> Froeher op lannen harrn
> se
> blot een lepel un knief to'n eten

Bi uns, güntsieds vonne Elv, harren 's alleen Löpels- de Metzen wöörn tou
gefaarli :-)!

Allerbest Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
> searching
> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
> not
> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?

Darrin.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 15:52:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:52:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.12.APR.2005.085229.0700.>

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From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
> searching
> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
> not
> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?

Darrin.

I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder") has got nothing to do with the
"hierdie/daardie" issue. "Yonder/ginder" is a derivation of the
demonstrative stem which still can be found in German: "jen-" (jener, jene,
jenes). The [d] seems to be original [if I may believe the etymological
dictionaries]. If not it could be epenthetic. Either hypothesis is better
than the asssumption that the d in "yonder/ginder" derives from
"there/daar". We don't say "yonther" after all.

Hans den Besten

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hans (above):

> I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder")

Low Saxon has _günt_ ~ _gunt_ (> _güntsyds_ ~ _guntsyds_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

Thanks Hans! I'm glad finally someone else who knows about this too reacts
to that supposedly Zeelandic origins of Afrikaans! Because that beautiful
language originates without doubt from South Holland Dutch, to be more
precise from the Dordrecht area where Van Riebeeck himself - the founder of
the Cape of Good Hope Dutch colony - was from. In Kloeke's Herkomst en
groei van het Afrikaans this Southern South Hollandic origins were proven
already long ago. On the other hand, Southern South Holland is not very far
from Zeeland and the South Holland islands - where Zeelandic is spoken as
well, so certain similarities in vocabulary, accent and expressions can be
expected. What's more: the fact that people from Zeeland - such as my
mother - recognise there own dialect in Afrikaans means something too, I
think. It would be interesting to know what native Afrikaanders would think
about this often claimed Zeelandic or other origins of their language, if
they would hear/read different Dutch dialects...

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]
>
>Finally a remark on "Zealandic" I'd wish that subscribers to Lowlands
>finally stop reviving this dead horse. It is absolutely clear that
>Afrtikaans is "Hollandic" in so far as Dutch dialect features are
concerned.
>This applies both to sounds and to words: Zealandic is a southern dialect
>and shares many words with Flemish dialects. [Where for instance
is "kachel"
>'foal' in Afrikaans?]  Furthermore, besides "ons" no other Zealandic
pronoun
>can be found in (the history of) Afrikaans. That is to say typical
Zealandic
>pronouns like "julder", "zulder", "wulder" and "joe'" [2PL, 3PL, 1PL and
2SG
>resp.] do not show up in Afrikaans Similarly for typical phonological
>properties of Zealandic: the strongly weakend [h] of Z does not show up in
>Afrikaans. Z   does not dipthongize {i:] and [y] and so only has <ei> and
><ui-2>. Afrikaans, being Hollandic, is a diphthongizing variety. Etc. etc.
>
>It is suprising that the Zealandic origins hypothesis, which experts --
>whatever their ideas about the origins of Afrikaans -- have rejected long
>ago still keeps popping up -- just like "Malayo-Portuguese", which is a
>definite misnomer for "(Bazaar) Malay and Asian Creole Portuguese".
>
>Hans den Besten
>
>R F Hahn:
>As for the Zeelandic theory, I ask that folks who wish to respond to it do
>so under "language varieties."
>
>On a personal note, I don't see why we ought to consider only "either ...
or
>..." instead of a multi-origin possibility.  As most of us know, Dutch was
>the official language at the Cape for a long, long time, and its influence
>would have been continuous as a written and "high" language.  So the
>existence of a very substantial Hollandic component can hardly be denied.

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

J.B. Besten wrote:
> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
searching
> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
not
> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

But there are equivalent strucutres in German dialects - Suebian, for
instance, spoken in Baden-Württemberg in the Southwest, uses "dahanna" (as
in "da hinten", over there). This can be modified into "da dahanna" and "do
dahanna" ("this one here" vs. "that one there").

I lived in Suebia for almost two years and was fascinated by those two
little words. Once, for instance, I was in line at the meat and sausage
counter in the supermarket. The lady in fromt of me said she wanted some of
the sausage "dahanna". The vendor asked: "Da dahanna oder do dahanna?"
Customer: "Do dahanna!" And then she gave her exactly the right sausage,
without any of them pointing or otherwise indicating at all (and this was in
Germany, so there were plenty of sausages to choose from).

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>What about "yonder"? <

OED:   yonder: over there : corresponds to Old Saxon  gendra ( adj)  West
Frisian ginder ( adj) = on this side    Middle Dutch  ghinder, gunder
(Dutch ginder)  Gothic jaindre.

yon = Old English  geon   correspondsa with variation of vowels to OFris
jen(a)   MLG  gene   MDu  ghens   OHG  jener   Goth   jains = that

There is a parallel series of forms without the initial consonant: OHG ener
 ON enn, inn  Oslav  onu  Sanskrit  ana = this one

It actually doesn't explain the -der  suffix

Heather

----------

From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology


From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]

As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie", searching
for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am not
going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

Hello Lowlanders,
I am not a linguist so this may be a silly observation but these 2 words
"hierdie and daardie" sound a lot like english hither and thither meaning
roughly here and there from OE hider
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 15:54:28 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:54:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.12.APR.2005.085428.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (08) [E]

Kevin Caldwell wrote:
> English still uses boys' names from "Lion", such as Leo, Leon, and
Leonard.
> There is also CNN's Wolf Blitzer, and "Tiger" is a common nickname for
boys,
> usually used by their fathers ("Go get 'em, Tiger!").

There probably isn't a connection between the German first name Gebhard and
"Gepard", the German word for cheetah?

Also, let's not forget the bears: Bernard, Bernhard, Björn, Bernd, Berthold,
Bartold, etc., possibly also Barney etc.
And the eagles: Arndt, Arend, Arnold, etc.
Boars: Eberhard (although I think that might come from a different root)
Large global deer: Hieronymoose, Rasmoose, and the female Lower Saxon name
Elke

>duck<
Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 15:58:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:58:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.12.APR.2005.085842.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]


Dear Lowlanders

I have just returned from New Zealand and from my own observation the Maori
language seems to have disappeared  from the streets of New Zealand, even in
those areas where there are supposed to be most of the Maori speakers
(arounmd the East Cape of the North Island), I have not heard any of the
Maori families I encountered speaking Maori to each other. Although great
efforts are now undertaken to save the language such as a Maori TV channel
it seems to go the way like Irish, it has mere symbolic importance as e.g in
the haka but ceased to be the language even Maori communicate in any longer.
All school-children have to learn Maori for two years at school (including
the Pakehas, those of European descent) but often the teacher him/herself
cannot get a complete sentence together in Maori, the Maori-newsreaders
leave the impression that they are native English-speakers who attained a
reasonable knowledge of the language. But I might have it all wrong, I
wonder whether we have a native Maori speaker in our Lowlands-group who
could prove my impression wrong, I would be more than glad if I am. The
problem is, I have seen it all before, it is just like my native Low Saxon
has almost entirely disappeared from the streets of Slesvig-Holsten.

Groeten

Helge

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (06) [E]

I meant mostly on a federal level. As an Arizonan, I encounter
bilingual signs, forms, phonelines, websites, etc. on a daily basis,
and a great deal of these are from the state government or municipal
governments.

The degree of bilingualism is such that if somebody in the state
senate floated a bill written entirely in Spanish, well, it wouldn't
happen even though we have a few senators who seem like they would do
that.

In fact, in Flagstaff, the most important municipal documents are
translated into Navajo, which is very much a waste since most Navajos
can't read Navajo and most of those that can are too young to care
about such documents or have a high enough degree of fluency in
English to understand the English version.

On a state level, however, the government is less bilingual than at
the county or municipal level, and basically all dealings with the
federal goverment are conducted in English.

Mark

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]


Jim Krause wrote:
"I sometimes wonder if English will go the way of Latin: that is, after a
period of development will divide into several related but significantly
different languages, just as Latin spawned French, Spanish, Protugese,
Rumanian, Catalan, and others."

Tom McRae replied:
"The first signs of this evolvement are already there. American English is
already so close yet so far apart from the parent stream... pidgin in the
South Pacific are incomprehensible to
newcomers and that developed in Papua New Guinea has become an official
language."

English would have developed as Latin did if there was no print media or
electronic media. The evidence is there in Yola and Fingalian in Ireland,
which were unintelligible to English speakers by the eighteenth and
nineteenth century (and a good bit beforehand). Creoles are becoming less
lexically separate from English because of the global power of that
language, as any glance at the Tok Pisin page of the Australian Broadcasting
Corporation's Radio National website shows. It is a shame that they are
being brought back into the linguistic fold (so to speak), but apparently
inevitable. It would be pleasing if Jamaica, Guyana and the like followed
the Haitian example and adopted the local language as official, but it seems
unlikely despite nationalist efforts that it be so.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>But since you mentioned Latin: where did Latin actually come from? It
can't
just have fallen out of the sky and then spread like a virus. Does anyone
know whether Latin is actually a true indigenous mediterranean language
(however one would define that), or did it at some point originate as some
kind of pidgin as well? I never really thought about this, forgive me if
this is an old hat for linguists.<

Latin was/is a member of the Italo-Celtic languages , descended from
Indo-European. There are clear internal signs that the Celtic languages and
Latin grew out of a single branch of IE

re the possible growth of new languages from English
We ( Modern Foreign languager inspectors and Advisors in the UK ) were
advised some years ago by an ex-member who now is a European member of
Parliament that the English spoken on the corridors of Brussels was
developing into a language all of its own, with differences of nuance and
meaning that would perplex the normal English speaker.

I believe the same is true for Indian English - but that is only a cautious
comment, stemming from a couple of articles I have read.

History would indicate this is to be entirely expected...................
Look what happened to our largest colony (!?)

Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 20:08:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:08:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (04) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]

Heather wrote:  "Look what happened to our largest colony (!?)"
Which one is that?  The largest population, or the largest in area?

Additionally, I wonder if anyone can give us some examples of Brussels/EU
English that would perplex me?

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]


Mark Williamson wrote:
"In fact, in Flagstaff, the most important municipal documents are
translated into Navajo, which is very much a waste since most Navajos can't
read Navajo and most of those that can are too young to care about such
documents or have a high enough degree of fluency in English to understand
the English version."

Not caring about Navajo on the part of young persons is one thing. They can
choose the English versions of official documents if they prefer. But those
that have "a degree of fluency in English and can understand [that
language]" should not be expected to interact in English simply because of
they know it. That is linguistic hegemony.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: embryomystic at cogeco.ca <embryomystic at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]

Scríobh Críostóir:

> English would have developed as Latin did if there was no
> print media or electronic media. The evidence is there in
> Yola and Fingalian in Ireland, which were unintelligible
> to English speakers by the eighteenth and nineteenth
> century (and a good bit beforehand).

Could you provide any links or anything with information about Yola and
Fingalian? You mentioned them once before, and I
googled for them, but I didn't manage to find anything. Sounds really
interesting. I do recall reading some mention, in
an old book about Irish dialects, of some English dialect spoken in
southeast Ireland (can't recall where, offhand) that
had diverged quite widely from the standard, and had taken on some
interesting characteristics of Irish, including the
diminutive -een. Could that be Yola or Fingalian?

heather rendall wrote:

> Latin was/is a member of the Italo-Celtic languages,
> descended from Indo-European. There are clear internal
> signs that the Celtic languages and Latin grew out of a
> single branch of IE

Are there? I've read in several places that this theory has been thoroughly
debunked.

le meas,

Isaac Davis/Íosac Mac Dáibhéid

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 14:30:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:30:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.073009.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]


"Yonder", from OE geond, is related to German "jener", which I gather is
considered a bit old-fashioned in Germany these days.

Paul

----------

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

Wat hierdie en daardie betref, ek het iets in ``Wording en ontwikkeling
van Afrikaans" deur J. du P. Scholtz gekry wat dalk vir julle interessant
is.  Ek kon nie Hahn se oorspronklikke e-pos kry nie, ek hoop ek herhaal
nie wat hy daar gese^ het nie.  Ek haal aan:

Die teenstellende aanwysende voornaamwoorde hierdie en daardie is uit geen
Kaapse bron van voor 1850 opgeteken nie, wat egter nie beteken dat die
vorme eers in die 19de eeu in Afrikaans ontstaan het nie.  Die aanwysende
voornaamwoorde die' het hom net deur sterker aksent van die bepaalde
lidwoord die onderskei, en met die verdwyning van deze is die geleentheid
vergroot vir die ontwikkeling en verspreiding van nuwe teenstellende
aanwaysende voornaamwoorde.  Die neiging tot nadurlikheid en oormatige
aanwysing, wat 'n kenmerk van die vroee" Kaapse taalgebruik was, kon die
ontstaan van vorme soos hierdie en daardie in die hand werk.  Dit is
moontlik dat die aanloop tot die Afrikaanse formasies in die 17de-eeuse
Hollands moet gesoek word.  In die huidige Hollandse volkstaal is
konstruksies bekend wat na aan die Afrikaans staan (bv. "Hier die frome
is-ter dak en muur van de kerk"). en vergelykbare konstruksies kom ook al
in die 17de eeu voor (bv. "Hier de kopster, Neel slimmongs" - uit
Bredero).  Daar is trouens ook gewys op konstruksies uit 18de eeuse Duits
wat byna identiek met die Afrikaans is ("Dort der Holunderstrauch verbrigt
mich ihm" - uit Schiller).  Onafhanklike ontstaan van hierdie en daardie
deur verskuiwing in sinaktiese geleding van sinne soos "Sien jy daar die
man met die groen hoed?" is egter ook goed denkbaar.  Van vreemde
oorsprong, of selfs tipies Afrikaans, is die konstruksies in elk geval
nie, want hierdie en daardie is as (oormatig) aanduidende vorme ook in 'n
Brabantse dialek aangewys.

Beste,
Darrin Speegle

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]

No, <yonder> is of course not directly related to hierdie or daardie,
but to Dutch <ginder/daarginds> over there, <ginds> (adject) yonder,
Dutch LS <gunter> idem. Dutch has also relatives: degene <the one> = de +
gene, hetgeen <the one> (neutr) = het + geen.

But there are some words related to <hier>: Dutch <heden>, German Heute =
today (formal/archaic); <huidig> = present, today's. <her en der> here and
there. German: heurig = this year's.
Related to <daar>: dergelijk/diergelijk = similar, the like, or would those
be conjugated forms of articles <de> and <die>? And again <her en der>.

Ingmar

>From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>
>From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]
>
>> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
>> searching
>> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
>> not
>> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)
>
>Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
>almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
>but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
>least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?
>
>Darrin.
>
>I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder") has got nothing to do with the
>"hierdie/daardie" issue. "Yonder/ginder" is a derivation of the
>demonstrative stem which still can be found in German: "jen-" (jener, jene,
>jenes). The [d] seems to be original [if I may believe the etymological
>dictionaries]. If not it could be epenthetic. Either hypothesis is better
>than the asssumption that the d in "yonder/ginder" derives from
>"there/daar". We don't say "yonther" after all.
>
>Hans den Besten
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Hans (above):
>
>> I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder")
>
>Low Saxon has _günt_ ~ _gunt_ (> _güntsyds_ ~ _guntsyds_).
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
>From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>
>Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>>What about "yonder"? <
>
>OED:   yonder: over there : corresponds to Old Saxon  gendra ( adj)  West
>Frisian ginder ( adj) = on this side    Middle Dutch  ghinder, gunder
>(Dutch ginder)  Gothic jaindre.
>
>yon = Old English  geon   correspondsa with variation of vowels to OFris
>jen(a)   MLG  gene   MDu  ghens   OHG  jener   Goth   jains = that
>
>There is a parallel series of forms without the initial consonant: OHG ener
> ON enn, inn  Oslav  onu  Sanskrit  ana = this one
>
>It actually doesn't explain the -der  suffix
>
>Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 14:32:08 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:32:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.13 (02) [E]
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.12 (02) [E]

>Not to be forgotten "Arvid" = Old Norse <Eagle of the Wood>, as we called
or youngest son
Ingmar

>From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (08) [E]
>>And the eagles: Arndt, Arend, Arnold, etc.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 14:40:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:40:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.074042.0700.>

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From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]

I don't think you can really say language deteriorates at all. You
mention "Fab" and "Telly". Are these examples of deterioration? No.
Both are simply examples of linguistic clipping, a process that happens
in every known natural language. If you've ever used the words "phone",
"deli", "sub", "demo", "condo", or "porn", to name a few of the
hundreds in English, you're carrying on the same change that's seen in
"fab" and "telly". These two are merely newer, so they haven't received
universal acceptance yet.
It certainly can be odd to hear adolescents speak. But as odd as it
may seem, they would not be talking like that if they did not expect to
be understood. Indeed they are understood. Just not by you and me.  :)
As to the question of English splitting into various extremely
different dialects and eventually even languages: it's possible but
probably unlikely to happen very soon, because the English speaking
community still to a certain degree sees itself as a community, and
Britain is in contact with North America, which is in contact with
Australia, etc. Isolated communities of speakers of English, however,
do stand a very good chance of developing their own dialects and even,
faaaar down the road, languages. But as I say, given how interconnected
English speakers are now, it seems unlikely to me.

-Ian Pollock

> The first signs of this evolvement are already there. American English
> is already so close yet so far apart from the parent stream which
> itself is also deteriorating at its lower levels. eg Awful stuff like
> 'Fab', 'Telly', and myriad other distortions. Even in Australia I
> shudder when a couple of teenage girls start going 'Yeah but, no not.
> Oh Yeah, Yeah, No.' For those of you who have watched BBC's wonderful
> 'Little Britain' Vickie Pollard is a classic case and her speech is for
> real.

----------

From: jverhoeven <jverhoeven at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]

from Joyce Verhoeven jverhoeve at xtra.co.nz
Helge wrote
> I have just returned from New Zealand and from my own observation the
> Maori
> language seems to have disappeared  from the streets of New Zealand, even
> in
> those areas where there are supposed to be most of the Maori speakers
> (arounmd the East Cape of the North Island), I have not heard any of the
> Maori families I encountered speaking Maori to each other. Although great
> efforts are now undertaken to save the language such as a Maori TV channel
> it seems to go the way like Irish, it has mere symbolic importance as e.g
> in
> the haka but ceased to be the language even Maori communicate in any
> longer.
> All school-children have to learn Maori for two years at school (including
> the Pakehas, those of European descent) but often the teacher him/herself
> cannot get a complete sentence together in Maori, the Maori-newsreaders
> leave the impression that they are native English-speakers who attained a
> reasonable knowledge of the language. But I might have it all wrong, I
> wonder whether we have a native Maori speaker in our Lowlands-group who
> could prove my impression wrong, I would be more than glad if I am. The
> problem is, I have seen it all before, it is just like my native Low Saxon
> has almost entirely disappeared from the streets of Slesvig-Holsten.

> Helge
> I found your comments interesting - but I may have a different point  of
> view Maori is very much a re-emerging language - when I was growing up
> here in the 1960's
there was very little Maori spoken or learnt. Maori children  were actively
discouraged
from speaking Maori by their parents for a large part of the 1900's, (NZ
society  seemed to
like people to fit in My immigrant parents in the 1960's were discouraged by
various health
 and education professionals(?) to speak Dutch to their children - as they
felt it would disadvantage
 us in learning  English - resulting in my younger siblings not being able
to speak and  understanding
 very little  Dutch as over the years our house become predominantly English
speaking.)  But I digress
It is  probably only over the last 20 or so years that the use of Maori  is
again being encouraged -
with total immersion pre schools and schools been go set up and also many
bilingual schools -
as children who have been exposed  to this are growing up there is more
Maori being spoken,
but I guess for the majority English will always be the first language as
that is the predominant
spoken/legal  language and it is still only a small proportion of children
who go through the specialised schools,
and in the rest of the schools Maori is still very much a token effort.
Maori TV is very new having just been in existence for 1 year but is gaining
in  popularity and efforts
are constantly made  to ensure it is not just a token effort.  My experience
is that the use of Maori is now
increasing (growing up I can not recall anyone speaking Maori - even my
Maori friends or their parents.
I now do have friends who speak Maori to their children  and good or bad
more Maori words
are becoming part of our everyday language - mixed in with the English.
regards
Joyce

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (04) [E]


Mark Brooks wrote:
"Additionally, I wonder if anyone can give us some examples of Brussels/EU
English that would perplex me?"

Mark, I think Brussels / EU English is considered perplexing because it is
notoriously bureaucratic and convoluted, rather than a separate, new
variety. There may be some influence from substrates (particularly French, I
would imagine), but that would only apply to informal internal e-mails and
memos, not to official documents.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 15:10:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:10:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.13 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.081054.0700.>

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (04) [E]

Isaac Davis wrote:

"Could you provide any links or anything with information about Yola and
Fingalian? You mentioned them once before, and I
googled for them, but I didn't manage to find anything. Sounds really
interesting. I do recall reading some mention, in
an old book about Irish dialects, of some English dialect spoken in
southeast Ireland (can't recall where, offhand) that
had diverged quite widely from the standard, and had taken on some
interesting characteristics of Irish, including the
diminutive -een. Could that be Yola or Fingalian?"

As far as I know, Yola, spoken in the baronies of Forth and Bargy in
Wexford, and Fingalian, spoken in Fingal in north Dublin, were unique
because they were a fossil form of Middle English with dialect elements
found in south-western England.  The name "Yola" is from "A Yola Zong" ('An
Old Song'), one of the few attested remnants of the speech variety.  The
voicing of the initial [s] is similar to that found in the English county of
Somerset ("Zomerzet" in the local dialect); it's also present in pastiche
form in part of 'King Lear', and there's also an Irvine Welsh story about a
Somerset necrophile, though that won't be everyone's cup of tea.  It is
difficult to understand much at all on the page (more difficult than actual
Middle English), although it might be easier with another orthography.  I
think that "I am" was something like "'Ch am".  I seem to remember that the
past participle retained the older English y-prefix and dispensed with the
flexion at the end, which might make it similar to Afrkaans in that respect.

The use of diminutive -een would be common to many Irish dialects of English
and unremarkable in this case.

--
Best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (04) [E]


Scriobh Iosac Mac Dáibhéid:
"Could you provide any links or anything with information about Yola and
Fingalian? You mentioned them once before, and I googled for them, but I
didn't manage to find anything. Sounds really interesting. I do recall
reading some mention, in an old book about Irish dialects, of some English
dialect spoken in southeast Ireland (can't recall where, offhand) that had
diverged quite widely from the standard, and had taken on some interesting
characteristics of Irish, including the diminutive -een. Could that be Yola
or Fingalian?"

That's them. There should be a handful of fairly detailed messages in the
Lowlands-L archive relating to both varieties, as well as a couple of
pitiful references from myself and the odd sample text. What follows is
entirely from memory, and thus of dubious accuracy.

Yola (Yola for 'old') is better documented, and was spoken in the parishes
of Forth and Bargy in extreme south eastern Wexford until the late
nineteenth century. I understand lexical traces of it still survive in the
Hiberno-English of the area (i.e., _neape_ for 'turnip'). Isolation from the
surrounding Irish-speaking districts seems to have been culturally important
to Yola speakers, although as you point out, they nevertheless imported a
number of lexical items from Irish, including the -in dimunitive which was
liberally put to use, and words like _capall_ 'horse', apparently for a
particular kind of horse. Yola seems to have been strongly influenced by if
not derived from Gower and Westcountry English, evident in its use of [v]
and [z] for standard [f] and [s] - i.e._vaadher_ 'father', _zummer_
'summer'. I believe Yola also used a Devonian sort of pronoun base, with
_cham_ [xam] , earlier < ich am being used for 'I am'.

Fingalian was always derided, and so less well recorded. Its users were said
to be unable to speak either Irish or English, but only the worst of the
latter. While Fingalian seems to have had a long life span in the Pale, it
appears to have been submerged by Hiberno-English in the nineteenth century
expansion of Dublin and none of it remains today, even lexically.

I hope this helps.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: resources

I notice that the ``Universal Survey of Languages" link listed on the
lowlands-l page is broken.  Does anyone know the status of this page?

This gives me an excuse to ask the following (as I am sure that the answer
would have been on that page): How analytic is Low Saxon in comparison to
Dutch and German?  Is it possible to provide me with some juicy examples?
For that matter, how does it compare to English?  (I think I know the
answer to the last one, but I don't want to assume.)

Thanks in anticipation,
Darrin Speegle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dag, Derrin, en dankie vir die interessante navraag hierbo.

I'm a tad too busy for a long explanation and examples (juicy or otherwise).
(Did I hear a sigh of relief there somewhere?)  However, I can say that, by
and large, Low Saxon is as alalytic as Standard Dutch and can be more so.
There's a great deal of dialectical variation, hence the disclaimer "by and
large."

The genders are still being distinguished, though not always
morphologically, as in the definite articles (e.g., _de(y) man_ 'the man',
_de(y) vrou_ 'the woman', _dat huus_ 'the house').

Depending on dialect and even idiolect, suffixes may be present of absent;
e.g.,

de Afrikaansch(e) man -> hey
de Afrikaansch(e) vrou -> sey
dat Afrikaansch(e) huus -> et ~ it ~ dat

'n Afrikaansch(en) man -> hey
'n(e) Afrikaansch(e) vrou -> sey
'n Afrikaansch(et) huus -> et ~ it ~ dat

de Afrikaansch(en) mans-luyd' -> sey
de Afrikaansch(en) vrou(e)ns-luyd' -> sey
de Afrikaansch(en) huys' -> sey

Afrikaansch(e) mans-luys' -> sey
Afrikaansch(e) vrou(e)ns-luys' -> sey
Afrikaansch(e) huys' -> sey

N.B.: Here <uu> stands for [u:], and [uy] stands for [y:] (i.e., Afrikaans
<oe> and <uu> respectively).  LS umlauts, though the pattern does not
totally match the German one. Furthermore, many LS dialects have
"superlength" or "drawl tone," i.e., an extra-long vowel or diphthong where
a final /-e/ has been elided between it and a preceding voiced consonant;
hence _huus_ [hu:s] 'house', vs. (_huyse_ ['hy:ze] >) _huys'_ [hy:.z]
'houses'.

You might like to visit my introductory site (badly in need of updating
though): http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/

Hopefully, others will have things to add.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 15:47:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:47:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.13 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.084723.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Anniversary

Dear Lowlanders,

As we are easying (?) into the middle of April (what? already?!) we're fast
approaching the official start of our 10th anniversary month (lasting till
about the middle of May, or until the last party guests have left).

Our online anniversary presentation will probably never be finished.  In
other words, it will remain a work in progress.  However, it will be
officially unveiled any time now.  So this is our last pre-unveiling call
for writing, translating and recording contributions.  Please send them to
me at <sassisch at yahoo.com>.

If you are new to our list, please find a repeat of an explanation/call
appended.  And an exciting bunch of you it is that joined us recently,
including Low Saxon (Low German) speakers from Kansas and Trinidad & Tobago,
a famous linguist of the Nordic and Dutch persuation, and a member of EBLUL
(European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages).  (Don't be afraid! No lurkers
are ever "outed" on this list. Unless you join the speakers' corner, your
identities are known only to me and the co-editors.)  Welcome to all new
Lowlanders!  Now that you are on board, you might want to consider joining
us in the anniversary project effort, for instance by writing a brief
introduction (and, preferably, adding a picture) and sending it to me for
posting.

Best regards, and stay posted!
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

***
Encore:


Before I get to normal List business, let me remind you of our upcoming 10th
anniversary (April/May 2005) and the anniversary project we are putting
together: a collection of translations of a Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
folktale in various Lowlands language varieties (*any* varieties) and other
languages, both reading and for listening. You will find the raw material
here: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html . But we will
present this elsewhere, jazzed up, and with sound. It's going to be really
terrific.  Some subscribers have already contributed to this. Thanks to all
of them. Contribution recognition awards will be handed out later.  More is
needed, folks! Besides translations and sound recordings, we need
subscribers' brief (1-8 paragraphs) introductions, preferably with pictures,
but contributions without pictures will be gladly received too. Just
introduce yourselves, say where (in general) you live and originally come
from, what sorts of interests you have, and what your experiences and/or
first impressions you have as relates to Lowlands-L. We want to show folks
out there the diversity of membership. We do not want to impress them with
great names and achievements, just show them that virtually anyone at any
level of knowledge and experience and from any part of the world is welcome
to join us and is likely to gain something from it. If you are new to the
List, by all means, introduce yourselves and tell us what you hope to get
out of it and what your experiences have been so far. You may do so in any
language you like, do not need to write in English or in another Lowlands
language. If you do it bilingually, that would be great.

If you want to contribute introductions or translations, please send them to
me (sassisch at yahoo.com), and I will pass them on to Mathieu van Woerkom, our
webmaster who is designing a very nice new site for the occasion. We are not
concerned about duplication. If there is already a translation in your
language, please send us yours anyway. No two people tell a story exactly
alike, nor do they have exactly the same pronunciation. The main thing is
that your write and speak in a *natural* way. If you want to contribute
sound recordings, please get in touch with Henry Pijffers
(henry.pijffers at saxnot.com) who will also be happy to give you technical
advice and instructions.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 16:12:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:12:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Publications" 2005.04.13 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.091207.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Publications" 2005.04.11 (03) [E]

Leeve Arthur,

this morning I did read Your link with great interest. Remarkable facts You
collected!

But there was another thing I was impressed by: Your language is very easy
to understand for people like me, with some 'rusty remains' of their
'School-English'. There are just a handfull of words I had to look after in
a dictionary; I could nearly read it as fast as German.

Just the opposite from 'common' German juristic publications.

Or did You write it for some special people- e.g. for a 'leading', pious
"Texas-Ranger" or a descendant of original Northern-German immigrants, now
doing a job in the US-Army :-)?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 19:06:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:06:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.120654.0700.>

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (03) [E]

Críostóir said:

"Mark, I think Brussels / EU English is considered perplexing because it is
notoriously bureaucratic and convoluted, rather than a separate, new
variety. There may be some influence from substrates (particularly French, I
would imagine), but that would only apply to informal internal e-mails and
memos, not to official documents."

I think that some lexical choices are influenced by French substrates, even
in official terminology, examples being _subsidiarity_ and _patrimony_, the
latter often being used in reference to linguistic heritage.  There are also
out-and-out loan words such as _communautaire_.  It would be easy enough to
conduct a study comparing the proportion of Latinate vocabulary in EU
documents with that in home-grown British or Irish legislation.  I suspect
it would be greater.

--
Best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

----------

From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (03) [E]


I have to agree.  I have an internet buddy in England.  We've been
corresponding for five years and have never had any difficulty understanding
what the other is getting at, even though we speak quite informally, using
local idioms and dialects, and of course the ever-present clichés.  I also
have correspondents in Israel who are primarily Hebrew speaking, understand
English as it's spoken to them, but sometimes make charming syntax errors
when answering.  U.S. pop culture has spread so far and wide, about which I
have some regrets.  On the other hand, within the U.S. there are regions of
outback places like very rural Georgia where accents are so thick many
who've not been exposed to "southern" talk, have a hard time understanding.
But the Internet, English-language newspapers and magazines, radio and
television pretty much make all of it intelligible to everyone who's learned
even elemental English.

Marsha's two-cents

----- Original Message -----

From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]

 But as I say, given how interconnected English speakers are now, it seems
unlikely to me.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 23:35:12 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:35:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.04.13 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.163512.0700.>

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (07) [E]

Since when do rural Georgians speak English? If they speak anything
but Georgian, I would expect it to be something more along the lines
of Russian, Abkhazian, Ossetic, Armenian, or Azeri (ignoring de-facto
independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, otherwise you would
probably have to exclude Abkhazian and Ossetic).

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Oy, Mark!

Bless you, but quit picking on our Marsha, one of my favorite compatriots!

Besides, the languages of *the other* Georgia are (in the order of speaker
numbers) Georgian (Kartvelian), Mingrelian, Abkhaz, Osetian, Urum, Kurdish,
Judeo-Georgian, Svan, Bats, Neo-Aramaic (both Assyrian and Bohtan), Laz, and
also Russian and some Azeri.

And far more languages than that are used in *our* Georgia.  So there!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 23:39:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:39:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.13 (09) [A/E]
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From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]

Darrin Speegle's quote from Scholtz's book is completely to the point but I
should have mentioned in my first posting that years ago I published a paper
in German which deals with these statements and my conclusion was -- and
still is -- that there is an aweful lot of wishful thinking and an absence
of a sound analysis in these remarks of Scholtz's.

On the other hand Scholtz is referring to a construction which could be
reanalyzed by  L2 speakers of Cape Dutch.

Wat is het geval?

First of all, we can say similar things in colloquial Dutch (colloquial
ABN). However the adverb is not part of the noun phrase. It is an attention
caller a pragmatic particle at the beginning of a sentence:

Hier, dit boek is vast wel iets voor jou. [OK]
Zullen we -- hier -- dit hondje dan maar kopen? [difficult, but comletely
ungrammaritical if the intonation breaks are left out]

Hier, met deze hamer lukt het misschien wel
*Met hier deze hamer  lukt het mischien wel [only 'possible' with intonation
breaks]

As for German: "dort der Holunderstrauch" does not contain a demonstrative
"dort  der" Those who accept "dort der Holunderstrauch" as a constituent
probably also accept "auf der Ecke der Mann" (as I was told people do, after
I had given my talk in Essen: H. den Besten "Üniversalgrammatik und/oder
Zweitsprachenerwerb: der Fall Afrikaans" in N Bortezky et al. (ed.) Beiträge
zum 4. Essener Kolloquium über "Sprachkontakt, Sprachwandel,
Sprachtod"....". Bochum: Brocklmeyer, 1988, pp. 11-44 (esp. 19-27).

Nevertheless, this colloquial structure may have given the impetus for the
construction of "hierdie"and "daardie"(AND "doerdie") in nonnative C ape
Dutch, as Roberge has pointed out in a recent article..

By the way: the oldest attestation for "daardie" has already been pushed
back to 1797 (paper by Raidt).

Hans den Besten

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

Wat hierdie en daardie betref, ek het iets in ``Wording en ontwikkeling
van Afrikaans" deur J. du P. Scholtz gekry wat dalk vir julle interessant
is.  Ek kon nie Hahn se oorspronklikke e-pos kry nie, ek hoop ek herhaal
nie wat hy daar gese^ het nie.  Ek haal aan:

Die teenstellende aanwysende voornaamwoorde hierdie en daardie is uit geen
Kaapse bron van voor 1850 opgeteken nie, wat egter nie beteken dat die
vorme eers in die 19de eeu in Afrikaans ontstaan het nie.  Die aanwysende
voornaamwoorde die' het hom net deur sterker aksent van die bepaalde
lidwoord die onderskei, en met die verdwyning van deze is die geleentheid
vergroot vir die ontwikkeling en verspreiding van nuwe teenstellende
aanwaysende voornaamwoorde.  Die neiging tot nadurlikheid en oormatige
aanwysing, wat 'n kenmerk van die vroee" Kaapse taalgebruik was, kon die
ontstaan van vorme soos hierdie en daardie in die hand werk.  Dit is
moontlik dat die aanloop tot die Afrikaanse formasies in die 17de-eeuse
Hollands moet gesoek word.  In die huidige Hollandse volkstaal is
konstruksies bekend wat na aan die Afrikaans staan (bv. "Hier die frome
is-ter dak en muur van de kerk"). en vergelykbare konstruksies kom ook al
in die 17de eeu voor (bv. "Hier de kopster, Neel slimmongs" - uit
Bredero).  Daar is trouens ook gewys op konstruksies uit 18de eeuse Duits
wat byna identiek met die Afrikaans is ("Dort der Holunderstrauch verbrigt
mich ihm" - uit Schiller).  Onafhanklike ontstaan van hierdie en daardie
deur verskuiwing in sinaktiese geleding van sinne soos "Sien jy daar die
man met die groen hoed?" is egter ook goed denkbaar.  Van vreemde
oorsprong, of selfs tipies Afrikaans, is die konstruksies in elk geval
nie, want hierdie en daardie is as (oormatig) aanduidende vorme ook in 'n
Brabantse dialek aangewys.

Beste,
Darrin Speegle

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]

No, <yonder> is of course not directly related to hierdie or daardie,
but to Dutch <ginder/daarginds> over there, <ginds> (adject) yonder,
Dutch LS <gunter> idem. Dutch has also relatives: degene <the one> = de +
gene, hetgeen <the one> (neutr) = het + geen.

But there are some words related to <hier>: Dutch <heden>, German Heute =
today (formal/archaic); <huidig> = present, today's. <her en der> here and
there. German: heurig = this year's.
Related to <daar>: dergelijk/diergelijk = similar, the like, or would those
be conjugated forms of articles <de> and <die>? And again <her en der>.

Ingmar

>From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>
>From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]
>
>> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
>> searching
>> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
>> not
>> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)
>
>Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
>almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
>but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
>least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?
>
>Darrin.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 23:52:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:52:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.165219.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]

>> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Etymology
>>
>> Hans (above):
>>
>>> I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder")
>>
>> Low Saxon has _günt_ ~ _gunt_ (> _güntsyds_ ~ _guntsyds_).

In Dutch dialects and Town Frisian (based on Hollandic dialects,
mostly), the form
"gunter" is used, but mostly in expressions like "fan hier tot gunter"
(in Harlingen dialect)
(== very large, very far away)

>> Regards,
>> Reinhard/Ron
>> From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
>> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>>
>> Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>>> What about "yonder"? <
>>
>> OED:   yonder: over there : corresponds to Old Saxon  gendra ( adj)
>> West
>> Frisian ginder ( adj) = on this side    Middle Dutch  ghinder, gunder
>> (Dutch ginder)  Gothic jaindre.

Modern West Frisian has "jinsen" (but this is archaic, mostly, older
people might still use it).
Saterfrisian has "juns" (as German "jene, jener, jenes)(see yonder for
the vowel, I think)
and Mooring (and probably more North Frisian dialects) has "dajanter,
jjanter" etc so also "article + demonstrative"
as in "dadeer" etc.  Also "jans" (< *jins ) occurs there.

>> yon = Old English  geon   correspondsa with variation of vowels to
>> OFris
>> jen(a)   MLG  gene   MDu  ghens   OHG  jener   Goth   jains = that

Yes, curiously enough, also Saterfrisian has this vowel variant.

>> There is a parallel series of forms without the initial consonant:
>> OHG ener
>> ON enn, inn  Oslav  onu  Sanskrit  ana = this one
>>
>> It actually doesn't explain the -der  suffix
>>
>> Heather
Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]

What do Germans use instead of Jener?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Ben!

_Jener_ (masc.), _jene_ (fem./pl.) and _jenes_ (neut.) sound bookish or
poetic.  I would probably say things like _der/die/das ... da/dort
(hinten/drüben)_ to express that something is far away, just as you would
say something like _the/that ... (over) there_ instead of _yon ..._ in
Modern English.  In Low Saxon I'd say something like _de/dat ... daar_,
pretty much as in English.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 14:55:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:55:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.075514.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (03) [E]

I regard them and their ilk as such but then I am probably of a much
earlier generation than most of you folks. The most atrocious example
of all appears in Scots English, the ghastly 'Thingwy' which is used as
a substitute for any noun and is often used more than once in a
sentence..."Ah went tae thingwy's tae git a thingwy." was commonplace
in Working Class Edinburgh in my childhood. Like Orwellian Newspeak it
ultimately restricted the thought process and the vocabulary of the
users. Far from exclusive to the Working Class I even knew several
English academics who adopted it when resident in Scotland.

On 14/04/2005, at 12:40 AM, Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca> wrote:

> I don't think you can really say language deteriorates at all. You
> mention "Fab" and "Telly". Are these examples of deterioration?
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi, Tom!

Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that only in
my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well.

In Northern German (at least), possibly based on Low Saxon, you can use
_Dings_ or _Dingsda_ in much the same fashion.  _Ding_ is 'thing', and _da_
is assumedly the word for 'there'.  In Missingsch and derived German
dialects you can say _Dings_ (not plural) instead of _Ding_, also in Low
Saxon, which is why I assume this _Dingsda_ comes from Low Saxon _dat dings
daar_ 'the/that thing there'.  But in the named German dialects _Dingsda_
can be used without the article, even for names one has forgotten, both
names for people and places (as in the operetta _Der Vetter aus Dingsda_
"The Cousin from Whatsisname" by Eduard Künneke and Hermann Haller, here
probably implying something like "whatever boondocks").  This _Dingsda_ can
be used much the same as American English "thingymabob," "whatsisname,"
"doodad" etc., and also like non-American "thingy" (and Scots _thingwy_?),
as in Missingsch _Wassn nas Dinksdå_ (= _Was ist denn das Ding(s) da_) 'What
sort of (weird) thing/gadget/contraption/thingymabob/doodad is that
(there)?"   You can also combine it with _weischå_ (= _(du) weißt ja_ 'well,
you know (what)'); e.g., _Das happich von weischå Dinksdå gekricht_ 'I got
it from ya know Whatsisname.'

So your  (well, not *yours* of course) Scots _Ah went tae thingwy's tae git
a thingwy_  would be in Missingsch _Ich binßu Dinksdå das Dinksdå hooln_.

So according to you it causes cerebral atrophy (or lexical shrinkage), huh?
My wife would be inclined to agree with you there, at least in my case, or
she would say it's the result of it .  ;-)  In my case it tends to set in
when it's past my bedtime.  I guess you wouldn't be amused.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 14:58:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:58:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.14 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.075826.0700.>

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.04.13 (08) [E]

In addition to several English varieties and Gullah (also known as Sea
Islands Creole English), Muskogee, Choctaw, Cherokee, etc. are native to the
US State of Georgia in some sense or another (although there are speakers of
Mandarin in Georgia, there is no distinct "Georgian
dialect" of Mandarin).

Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 14:59:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:59:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.14 (03) [A]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.075952.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Minority Languages"

Dag almal,

Hierdie artikel rakende Afrikaans het gister in Die Beeld verskyn:
http://www.news24.com/Beeld/Hoofartikels/0,,3-65_1689225,00.html

?'n Ministeri?le komitee oor die ontwikkeling van inheemse tale as
onderrigmedium in ho?r onderwys het volgens die Suid-Afrikaanse Akademie vir
Wetenskap en Kuns pas in 'n verslag nagelaat om Afrikaans as 'n inheemse
taal te kategoriseer wat versorging nodig het om te kan oorleef in 'n
omgewing wat deur Engels oorheers word.

Me. Naledi Pandor, minister van onderwys, behoort toe te sien dat di? oorsig
reggestel word voordat s? 'n verslag aanvaar word.

Afrikaans is 'n inheemse taal. Die taal is in onderwys onder druk vanwe?
owerheidsaandrang dat die fokus op Engels moet wees. Dieselfde geld die
ander amptelike tale. Almal behoort deur die staat ondersteun te word soos
die Grondwet in art. 6(2) voorsien.

Enigiemand wat enige twyfel oor Afrikaans se status as inheemse taal het,
kan gerus art. 6 (1) van ons Grondwet lees. Dit kategoriseer Afrikaans saam
met die tale wat in die ministeri?le komitee se verslag gemeld word.?

Die webtuiste vir die SA Akademie vir Wetenskap en Kuns is by
http://www.akademie.co.za/
en bevat interessante inligting.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 15:01:33 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:01:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.14 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.080133.0700.>

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From: klaus schmirler <KSchmir at online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (10) [E]

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>

> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]
>
> What do Germans use instead of Jener?
>
and

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hi, Ben!
>
> _Jener_ (masc.), _jene_ (fem./pl.) and _jenes_ (neut.) sound bookish or
> poetic.  I would probably say things like _der/die/das ... da/dort
> (hinten/drüben)_

There is nothing funny about Swabian (and I hope it isn't any more off
topic than questions about "German"), but I noticed this:

Swabian has an opposition of "daw hinner/hanner" ("English"
transcription) and "daw hunner". Whereas the former clearly means "back
there, da hinten", the latter, if it is related to "gunt", means just
the opposite: in this very place, here.

klaus

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 19:09:37 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:09:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.04.14 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.120937.0700.>

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From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.04.13 (08) [E]


LOL, good one Mark!  And thank you, Ron.  I suppose any region that uses the
word "boogher" as an endearment, must be speaking something other than the
Queen's English.  Gotta love those ol' distant cousins of mine.

Marsha
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
  Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (07) [E]

  Since when do rural Georgians speak English? If they speak anything
  but Georgian, I would expect it to be something more along the lines
  of Russian, Abkhazian, Ossetic, Armenian, or Azeri (ignoring de-facto
  independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, otherwise you would
  probably have to exclude Abkhazian and Ossetic).

  Mark

  ----------

  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  Subject: Language use

  Oy, Mark!

  Bless you, but quit picking on our Marsha, one of my favorite compatriots!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 19:14:57 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:14:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.121457.0700.>

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

We have a similar "dinges" here, you generally use it when the name or word
doesn't want to come up to your mind immediately.

"Geef mij de dinges eens?"

"Ik heb gisteren dinges nog gezien!" (here it's about a person whose name
you can't remember)

I have no idea if this is considered "good" Dutch or not - I only hear it
spoken, never seen it in written language. (maybe one of our Netherlandic
people here can tell if it's widespread overthere as well)

Diederik Masure

>From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
>Subject: Lexicon

>Hi, Tom!
>
>Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that
>only in
>my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well.
>
>In Northern German (at least), possibly based on Low Saxon, you can
>use
>_Dings_ or _Dingsda_ in much the same fashion.  _Ding_ is 'thing',
>and _da_
>is assumedly the word for 'there'.  In Missingsch and derived German
>dialects you can say _Dings_ (not plural) instead of _Ding_, also in
>Low
>Saxon, which is why I assume this _Dingsda_ comes from Low Saxon
>_dat dings
>daar_ 'the/that thing there'.  But in the named German dialects
>_Dingsda_
>can be used without the article, even for names one has forgotten,
>both
>names for people and places (as in the operetta _Der Vetter aus
>Dingsda_
>"The Cousin from Whatsisname" by Eduard Künneke and Hermann Haller,
>here
>probably implying something like "whatever boondocks").  This
>_Dingsda_ can
>be used much the same as American English "thingymabob,"
>"whatsisname,"
>"doodad" etc., and also like non-American "thingy" (and Scots
>_thingwy_?),
>as in Missingsch _Wassn nas Dinksdå_ (= _Was ist denn das Ding(s)
>da_) 'What
>sort of (weird) thing/gadget/contraption/thingymabob/doodad is that
>(there)?"   You can also combine it with _weischå_ (= _(du) weißt
>ja_ 'well,
>you know (what)'); e.g., _Das happich von weischå Dinksdå
>gekricht_ 'I got
>it from ya know Whatsisname.'
>
>So your  (well, not *yours* of course) Scots _Ah went tae thingwy's
>tae git
>a thingwy_  would be in Missingsch _Ich binßu Dinksdå das Dinksdå
>hooln_.
>
>So according to you it causes cerebral atrophy (or lexical
>shrinkage), huh?
>My wife would be inclined to agree with you there, at least in my
>case, or
>she would say it's the result of it .  ;-)  In my case it tends to
>set in
>when it's past my bedtime.  I guess you wouldn't be amused.
>
>Cheers!
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

Dear Lowlanners,
Ron wrote:

> In Northern German (at least), possibly based on Low Saxon, you can use
> _Dings_ or _Dingsda_ in much the same fashion.  _Ding_ is 'thing', and
> _da_
> is assumedly the word for 'there'.

Even more famous in these days is _Dingsbums_, meaning all the the same.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Lexicon

"Dingsbums," Jonny?  Tja, dat ken ik ook noch.  Dat geev' 't sogaar al vör
my.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 19:16:51 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:16:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.14 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.121651.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanners, Reinhard,

a good ten days ago there was in the topic "Traditions" the _gowk_. Ron
wrote:
>
> _Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.

Yesterday a friend of mine, linguist by profession, I asked for the word:
LS: "Jokus", E: "joke", "jocose", G: "Jux".

He told me, that this word first appeared in the 18. century among students,
meaning G: "Rederei", "Geschwätz".
It is assumed to be akin to Latin: "jocolator" = G: "Gaukler" as well as to
AHD (Old-High-German): "jehan" - G: "ansagen, verkünden...".
Its roots are supposely indoeuropean and cognate with the French: "jeu".

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 19:18:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:18:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.14 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.121821.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.13 (02) [E]

I got an off-line reaction from a Triple-L member who's called Arvid too.
Although from American, he's got a Dutch last name... What a coincidence!

In Dutch we say <arend> for eagle, but <adelaar> from German <Adler> (?)
is used just as much.

By the way, the city I live nearby, Arnhem, means Home of the Eagle(s).
< aren(d)+heem. It has its own German name too, <Arnheim>. Its local name
is <Ernem>, in Low Saxon <Arem>. Arnhem is (in)famous because of its
Bridge too far, September 1944, when the allied forces tried but failed to
liberate the city across the Rhine. After that, the Northern half of the
Netherlands stayed in German hands. All inhabitants of Arnhem were forced
to leave the city for about eight months, there wasn't left much when the
returned.

I cross this bridge weekly, by bike or car, and often think about its
history then. It is called John Frost-brug now...

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.12 (02) [E]
>
>>Not to be forgotten "Arvid" = Old Norse <Eagle of the Wood>, as we called
>or youngest son
>Ingmar
>
>>From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
>>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (08) [E]
>>>And the eagles: Arndt, Arend, Arnold, etc.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 21:44:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:44:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.144440.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (06) [E/LS]

He, Ron,

You mean: even if You're tired You remember that _Dingsda_, eeh
_Dingenskirch_ eeh- ooh- I've got it: _Dingsbums-? :-))!

Grinning Greutens (You are even slightly younger than I am!! I'm watching
the same going on with me)/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

Thingwy reminds me of the repulsive, vomit-causing term that my generation
adores:  Thingy! If you say thingy, expect me to vomit my last seven meals
onto your best white shirt! I am blind, and I heard it much when I was in
high school. What's that thingy in your hand? That is a linguistic bullet to
the brain.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 21:47:03 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:47:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.14 (10) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.144703.0700.>

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From: mark & ruth <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.12 (02) [E]

Dear Gabriele,

Subject: Humour

> Large global deer: Hieronymoose, Rasmoose, and the female Lower Saxon name
> Elke

Ag, dis Moose Dierbaar, u Hartelikke beäming vir die takbokreus.

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 22:12:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:12:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.14 (11) [A/E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.151229.0700.>

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From: mark & ruth <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.09 (03) [E/F/LS]

Hullo Henno, en Ron:

 Onderwerp "Etymology"

> > I have another question regarding Afrikaans.

Hi, Ron en almal. Hiermee wil ek my spaan insteek. Saam met 'hierdie en
daardie' het ons ook die 'dit en dat' in Afrikaans. Ons ken dit en ons
gebruik dit net soos julle, beide as blote uitdrukking asook om 'n keuse of
keur oor te dra.

bv. "Nee, Tannie, ons gons net oor dit en dat!" oftwel, "dit, dat en die
ander."
      "Wil jy dit (uitgewys) hê of wil jy dat (uitgewys) hê? Die keuse is
joune."

Die Uwe,
Mark

---------

From: mark & ruth <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.09 (03) [E/F/LS]

Hullo Almal,

Onderwerp: "Etymology"

> *Knief*

Wat van die Afrikaans 'knak' English 'break'? Maar die Engels gebruik 'n
woord 'knap' om 'n vuursteentjie uit te slaan, vir 'n grotbewoner se spies
of mes en vir die snaphaan van die ou jagter. Dit is 'n elegante beskrywing
van die wyse hoe om die flint te bekom, en so sê die geledere wat in die ou
kuns vaardig is, 'ek knak vir my 'n vuurklippie."

Die Uwe,
Mark

----------

From: mark & ruth <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]

Beste JB den Besten, Ingmar, Ron, Peter en Almal.

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Sak tog, Sarel! (& anybody else).

Afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",

What about 'thisyer' & 'thatyer' that my Grandfather picked up somewhere in
North England during the General Strike? Anyway, speakers are not slaves to
linguistic precident. Invention & extrapolation is a recognised & familiar
tool of common speech.

Ingmar, I want to hear more from you & Hans. Just get you excited & pearls
of wisdom simply pour from your lips.

However, I think Ron has made a point worthy of note here.
> >On a personal note, I don't see why we ought to consider only "either ...
> or
> >..." instead of a multi-origin possibility.

The Nederlands Colonial Empire was born of a serious stirring of nearly
related communities following the war of liberation from Spain. Certainly
the Hollands dialect was important, bearing on the economic dominance of
that region, but it served, I believe, as a common mean to the speakers of
other dialects. They spoke Hollands to each other, but each in his own way.

Now I have something else to say. Many Nederlanders wintered over in Israel,
on my kibbutz, the years I was there. As compared to Gretchen from
Rotterdam, The Fries guys (Stadsfries, it seemed to me) and Sibella from
Dordrecht, Hans, a denizen of Amsterdam & Kim the Flaming among many others,
I followed the conversation with the Zeelandies twins, Celestine & Marianne
rather the best. That has to count for something. Mind you, Kim & I drank
very well together. Also, bear in mind the dialectic features of my Taal
were ossified over two-&-a-half centuries ago. Modern Zeeus doesn't sound
the way it did then. Afrikaans certainly doesn't! Extrapolating from modern
Zeeus or Hollands to Modern Afrikaans is reckless & unhelpful.

Guys, I have been out of the picture some time, with the death of my
computer, so hullo agin. It is pleasant to lurk a whil, & keep it stirring.

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

Haai, Mark! Welkom tuis!

> Hi, Ron en almal. Hiermee wil ek my spaan insteek. Saam met 'hierdie en
> daardie' het ons ook die 'dit en dat' in Afrikaans. Ons ken dit en ons
> gebruik dit net soos julle, beide as blote uitdrukking asook om 'n keuse
> of
> keur oor te dra.
>
> bv. "Nee, Tannie, ons gons net oor dit en dat!" oftwel, "dit, dat en die
> ander."

Dat segt wy lyk so in 't Neddersassische:

"Nee, wy snakt man bloots so oever dit (~ düt) un dat!"

>       "Wil jy dit (uitgewys) hê of wil jy dat (uitgewys) hê? Die keuse is
> joune."

"Wult du dit (~ düt) hebben, or wult du dat hebben? De koyr is dyn."

Ek glo Afrikaans "hierdie" en "daardie" is adjektiewe, en "dit" en "dat" is
pronomen.

- Wil jy hierdie pop hê?
- Nee, ek wil daardie (pop) hê.

- Wil jy dit (hier) hê?
- Nee, ek wil dat (daar) hê.

Reg so?

Nedersaksies:

- Wult du düsse pop hebben?
- Nee, ik wil dey (daar/pop) hebben.

Over saaklike of onsekere sake:

- Wult du düt (hyr) hebben?
- Nee, ik wil dat (daar) hebben.

Over poppe (vroulik):

- Wult du düsse (hyr) hebben?
- Nee, ik wil dey (daar) hebben.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 00:31:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:31:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.173131.0700.>

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi All

Ron, you said

"Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that only in
my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well."

Yup, in England I've used thingy before, and thingmyjig, and thingmybob, and
plain thingmy and
wodyacallit, and...

ok question - anyone got an idea about the etymology of the 'jig' and 'bob'
parts of the thingmies above?

Gary

ps. congrats Ron on your becoming a bit more American, not sure I'd take the
plunge and become German, give me another 20 years perhaps... :)

---------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

Only person I know who used that was from Durham.
Far as bloody Thingwy goes one Aussie friend uses it routinely but his
Dad was a Scots wheelwright who obviously brought it with him.
My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'. I
notice US pollies have adopted this in recent years.
Worst Australian innovation was when some pompous academic in the early
20th century started referring to those of Scots and Irish decent as
Anglo Celts. Totally inaccurate collective term that became standard,
even turning up on census forms. After prolonged pressure from Irish,
and Scots to a lesser extent, it was abolished from officialdom in the
1970's. Some politicians eg Pauline Hanson,still use it and we cringe.
On 15/04/2005, at 12:55 AM, Lowlands-L wrote:

> Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that
> only in
> my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well.
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Gary and Tom!

Gary:

> thingmyjig, and thingmybob

> wodyacallit

Yep, I use those too (but only when our Tom is out of earshot), also
"Whatyamacallit."

Tom:

> My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite peeves, too, this and British "At the end of
the day ..."

Instead of "At this point in time" I like to say "At this juncture ..." and
I try to do it in the form of an impression of George Bush sr.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 18:10:39 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:10:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.111039.0700.>

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From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

Hehe, true, it's a little bizarre when people talk that way, but I
think cause and effect are a little mixed up here. People say that
because they're too lazy to insert the actual entities they're
discussing, but I don't think it's really affecting the language in any
huge way. We have the same thing happening here in Canada, often. In
fact I'd bet that most languages have some equivalent. In Russian it's
это самое ('EtV 'samojE) or штука ('shtukV), in Spanish if I remember
correctly it's "ese..." If that was being said frequently in Edinburgh
as you say, I'd call it more of a cultural phenomenon with linguistic
consequences, wouldn't you? Although I'll agree that with some speakers
it affects the thought processes.

Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?

> I regard them and their ilk as such but then I am probably of a much
> earlier generation than most of you folks. The most atrocious example
> of all appears in Scots English, the ghastly 'Thingwy' which is used as
> a substitute for any noun and is often used more than once in a
> sentence..."Ah went tae thingwy's tae git a thingwy." was commonplace
> in Working Class Edinburgh in my childhood. Like Orwellian Newspeak it
> ultimately restricted the thought process and the vocabulary of the
> users. Far from exclusive to the Working Class I even knew several
> English academics who adopted it when resident in Scotland.

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]

Hi all,

You were talking about, well, whadyacallem?  Doobris (no idea how to
spell that word - rhymes with blueberries, when pronounced with two
syllables).  Widgets.  Was hoofer-doofer ever one of these words? I seem
to remember it was, but now it has the specific meaning of a television
remote control.

Unfortunately, nominal aphasia means I use a wide variety of these
words.

What are their Dutch equivalents.  I would find them very useful for
such sentences as 'Does it have a .... whotsit - you know, little window
that is in the roof of a house'

Best wishes to all,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Hi All
>
> Ron, you said
>
> "Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that only
> in
> my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well."
>
> Yup, in England I've used thingy before, and thingmyjig, and thingmybob,
> and
> plain thingmy and
> wodyacallit, and...

All those are used here in the US too, although I'd spell them differently:

Thingamajig, thingamabob, thingamy, whatchamacallit, plus whatsit, whosit,
whositwhatsit, gadget, doodad, doohickey, doololly, whatchamadoodle,
whatsisname, whatsisface, and plain ol' thingy.  Probably a lot of others
too, but I can't think of them right now, and individual speakers often
create their own variations.

There's even a brand of candy bar called Whatchamacallit.

> From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
>
> Only person I know who used that was from Durham.
> Far as bloody Thingwy goes one Aussie friend uses it routinely but his
> Dad was a Scots wheelwright who obviously brought it with him.
> My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
> hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'. I
> notice US pollies have adopted this in recent years.

Oh, Americans have been using that for decades when they are trying to sound
formal.

The one that grates on my ear these days is "Back in the day".  Back in what
day?  What happened to "Back in the old days" or "Back when I was young"?

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]


"At this point in time."  A pet peeve of mine, also.  I remember it being
popularized in politics and news reporting during the Nixon/Watergate era
and considered it a part of the general air of obfuscation rampant then.  It
spread to the general public here in the States and was quite common by the
late 70's - still is, unfortunately.  Sets my teeth on edge every time.

According to http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/
This redundancy became popular because it was used by astronauts seeking to
distinguish precisely between a point in time and a point in space. Since
most people use the expression in contexts where there is no ambiguity, it
makes more sense to say simply “at this point” or “at this time.”

  From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
  Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

  My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
  hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'.
----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Me again...

So with regards to our Ron saying 'whatyamacallit'

an additional question to my last etymological one(and
probably a more interesting one is) where did this
'me/my/mi/ma" etc. come from - grammatically it
doesn't make a lot of sense when saying thing'my'jig,
wodya'ma'callit etc... are there parallels in other
lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
doesn't really belong - or does it? - I'm willing to
be proved wrong

Gary

http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Ian wrote above about a Russian word:

> штука ('shtukV),

Apparently it comes from German _Stück_ 'piece', 'item'.

> Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
> Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?

I've heard my Canadian relatives (in Southern Alberta, who also lived in
Calgary until recently) use this.  It struck me as only a slightly strange
the first time I heard it, but it was immediately understandable,
reminiscent of "dealibob," another such term used in the U.S.

Great to hear from our ... Whatyamacaller ... Pat above.  Hope things are
going well for you, Pat.

> Unfortunately, nominal aphasia means I use a wide variety of these
> words.

I confess that that makes at least two of us.  I know our Tom would just
stomp out in utter disgust if he had to listen to the two of us.

Interesting etymological question there, Gary.  I suspect "my" to have
slipped in there for some reason.

By the way, thanks for the congratulations, Gary.  (I forgot to say it last
night because I was in a rush.)  The sight of those very ancient Ukrainian
ladies holding miniscule American flags was an unexpected bonus, as was the
jolly company of my little "sub-possy" (from Canada, Italy, Ethiopia,
Ukraine, Vietnam, Germany, Argentina, England, Bangladesh and Israel) during
the long waits.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Don't forget that today is tax deadline, boys and girls in the U.S.!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 18:14:08 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:14:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.15 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.111408.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (05) [E]

Another example of Dutch Low Saxon, where in this case short <i>
rhymes with short <ü>. Again from Boh Foi Toch, in the last part of their
song  "Waerkommen" (coming back [i.e home, to the Achterhoek]) (ANS):

Ow huyskommen kü'y hyr manges VINDEN
An den Olden Ysselt sit iy good
Hyr bünt de naober vaak noch VRÜNDEN
En is de weld noch neet so groot.

And now the entire song:

Waerkommen:

De locht hängt swaor under de kappe
Noch evkes en den trein steet voer
Ik hove bloos maor in te stappen
Up weg nao huys, de reise geet doer

Et volk steet üm miy haer to praoten
Se gaot de selvde kante up
Ik lüster met, ik kan't neet laoten
De woerde ryget sik in myn kop

Refr.:

Kyk, moy, kerl bün iy der ok?
Ik loop ow jao so-wat van de bene
Gao-r-iy t'huys ok up de kapok
Dat is toch unmündig lang elene

Een naam, een sin of bloos een klank
Myn hoefd steet nao huys up an
Langs Duyven en Dym in enen gang
Geet völs to drao den trein vördan

Et Montferland lig in de wydten
De weidens draeit oer grote rad
Herinnerings bünt neet weg te slyten
Te depe bünt se vast esat

Refr.

En of iy komt uyt Yservoorde
Uyt Mokem of uyt Marrakech
Al stun ow weeg in't hoge noorden
In Oosseld of in Bangladesh

Ow huyskommen kü'y hyr manges vinden
An den Olden Ysselt sit iy good
Hyr bünt de naobers noch vaak vründen
En is de weld noch neet so groot

Refr.
***

Ingmar

>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.03 (01) [E]
>
>An example of Dutch Low Saxon where <ö> rhymes with <e> is found in the
>third part of the song "Bernd van Kuyperiy" of the popular Achterhoeks
>band Boh Foi Toch :
>
>in et voerjaor gao'w dan langs den ES
>wiy lopet daor samen hand in hand
>en biy de bekke in et GRöS
>vleget unse lyve in de brand
>de kalvere stuvet haost doer den draod
>de kyften raert hoog an de locht
>ik wette met miy selv gin raod
>ik heb so lang hyr nao esocht
>ik kryge van ou jao neet genoch
>nee noyt genoch
>
>(I transcribed it in ANS)
>
>So <es> (a kind of agr. field) and <grös> grass are rhyming here.
>
>I'll give you the first two parts of the song too:
>
>Goyendag myn dern bün iy noch vriy
>myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
>Ik heb 'ne moye burderiy
>den's ok van ou a'y trout met miy
>ik heb good melk up al myne grund
>der is voer twe platse sat
>'k heb vyftig beeste en een hund
>myn va en mo woont ampart
>a'y biy myn komt
>geev ik myn lyf, geev ik myn hart
>
>Ik sag ou aover straote gaon
>iy kwamen kort an miy voerbiy
>Mag ik wel evkes biy ou staon
>myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
>Ik heb ou hyr noch noyt eseen
>iy komt hyr sekers neet vandan
>Ik voele miy mangs so alleen
>gin derntjen wög et met miy an
>Ik do voer ou, a'y biy miy komt
>al wat ik kan
>
>In et voerjaor gao'w dan ... etc
>
>***
>
>The dialect is Western Achterhoek Low Saxon, as one may see with a lot of
>schwa-deletion already - like neighboring Low Franconian and Dutch, and
>using sec. pers. pronouns <iy/ou> in stead of more Eastern <dou/diy>,
>again as in Dutch <jij/jou> and Low Franc. <giy/ou>.
>
>Ingmar Roerdinkholder
>
>>From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> Would rhyming "u" with "i" sound OK in the other
>>> Lowlands languages?
>>>
>>> Darrin
>>
>>Hallo,
>>
>>'Not-perfect' rhyming is generally accepted  [at least
>>in the Germanic languages] when the two rhyming sounds
>>have the same number [and kind] of distinctive
>>features, unless one.
>>
>>vr.gr.
>>Theo Homan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 18:23:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:23:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.112322.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]

Dear Lowlanners, Reinhard,

in LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]
I wrote:

> yesterday I heard another interesting and still used LS-word:
>
> *Weet*:
> HG: '[halbnasses Heu, zum weiteren Trocknen im] ''Schwad''
> E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'', ''row'' ???
> (help needed, at this point!).
>
> My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but
> in
> LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] jäten', E: of course! 'to
> weed'.
> Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in the good old
> sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.
>
> I guess it to be remarkable- it could be Low-Saxon's nearly forgotten
> connection to E: 'wet', and I don't know any HG-word even in the near.

Sorry- amateurish investigated! Smalltime-etymologist, me!

I have to withdraw all of it, because yesterday I had to learn, that this
word only is used in an area (and spread out a little into the
surroundings), which had been settled by Dutch/Frisian colonists.
It is a small district, consisting of a handfull villages, just about 10 km
away from my home, called "Sietland" (E: lowland).
In the 13. century we had an arch-bishop of Bremen, who was a Dutch count.
He started to cultivate waste, wet land with his countrymen, and some more
waves of Dutch/Frisian immigrants followed in the 14. century.

Isn't it interesting to learn, that these people completely melted with the
native population, but there are still, after 700!! years, thus obvious
relicts of their language?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen, Jonny!

About this _sydland_ ... To me it connotes low-lying, often wet land (from
_syd(')_ 'shallow'), probably at or below sea level, whereas I would call
the general lowlands of Europe _platland_ ("flat land," cf. Afrikaans
_platteland_) or _leygland_ (from _leyg(')_ 'low', also > 'inferior',
'bad').  To me, _sydland_ tends to be more limited in size.

How does this sit with you and others?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 18:24:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:24:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.15 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.112426.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.14 (08) [E]


Ingmar wrote:
"I got an off-line reaction from a Triple-L member who's called Arvid too.
Although from American, he's got a Dutch last name... What a coincidence!"

My response will make it lucky three, then: friends of mine in Amersfoort
(the father is Dutch and the mother Frisian) named their elder son Arvid
because the father has a passion for Swedish culture and speaks Swedish.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 06:06:04 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:06:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.15 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.230604.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.15 (04) [E]

Hey, that's nice, another Arvid! Before we called our son like that I'd
never heard from that name... But not long after his birth I learned that
a football (soccer) player was called Arvid too, and a colleague's
boyfriend... And they were both from Doetinchem, Achterhoek, Gelderland...

Btw, I suppose your friends from A'foort will be both Dutch, Frisians are
Dutch too you know, Friesland is just a Dutch province... I can't say that
my wife Barbara is Dutch and I'm Low Saxon, because the Brabant dialects
are categorized under Dutch and Low Saxon is recognized as a seperate
language... No, we both have the Dutch nationality and ethnicity.
Maybe the Low Saxons and the Frisians could be called even more Dutch,
culturally, than the Southern, Roman Catholic Brabo's and Limbo's...
whe are closer to Belgium /Flemish etc

Ingmar

>From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.14 (08) [E]
>
>Ingmar wrote:
>"I got an off-line reaction from a Triple-L member who's called Arvid too.
>Although from America, he's got a Dutch last name... What a coincidence!"
>
>My response will make it lucky three, then: friends of mine in Amersfoort
>(the father is Dutch and the mother Frisian) named their elder son Arvid
>because the father has a passion for Swedish culture and speaks Swedish.
>
>Go raibh maith agat,
>
>Criostóir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 06:12:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:12:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.15 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.231252.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.15 (03) [E]

Leeve Reinhard,

You wrote:

> About this _sydland_ ... To me it connotes low-lying, often wet land (from
> _syd(')_ 'shallow'), probably at or below sea level, whereas I would call
> the general lowlands of Europe _platland_ ("flat land," cf. Afrikaans
> _platteland_) or _leygland_ (from _leyg(')_ 'low', also > 'inferior',
> 'bad').  To me, _sydland_ tends to be more limited in size.
>
> How does this sit with you and others?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

.... and it's absolutely correct!

Beste Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Groten Dank weet ik Dy, leyve Jonny.

Düt "syd" vindt sik ook in de segwys' "wyd un syd" ~ "wyd en syd"
(Nedderlandsch _wijd en zijd_, man Duytsch _weit und breit_, Ingelsch _far
and wide_).

Vründliche groytens in 't huus!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 06:22:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:22:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.232224.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

In message <009401c541e6$71693150$29b88e8c at D5SYLB51>, Lowlands-L
<lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> writes
>an additional question to my last etymological one(and
>probably a more interesting one is) where did this
>'me/my/mi/ma" etc. come from - grammatically it
>doesn't make a lot of sense when saying thing'my'jig,
>wodya'ma'callit etc... are there parallels in other
>lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
>doesn't really belong - or does it? - I'm willing to
>be proved wrong

I think wodjamacallit could be "what you may call it".  The vowel in
'may' gets expressed as schwa, and written and expressed as a variety of
other sounds.

The 'my' or 'me' in 'thingamy' or 'thingame' seems different - the OED
says the Y is the diminiutive, and the original word is 'thingum' (with
the same meaning), being 'thing with a meaningless suffix'.

The OED thinks 'thingum' may be obsolete (last recorded 1808).  Does
anyone have later usage?

Cheers,

Wotserfeechers (Pat)
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Nominal aphasia.  Okay, so what happens when/if your aphasia gets so bad you
can't even bring the word (?) whatchamacallit to mind?  Do you just invent a
new one on the spot?  Let's see, now, where did I put that...oh you
know...that...

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Me again...
>
> So with regards to our Ron saying 'whatyamacallit'
>
> an additional question to my last etymological one(and
> probably a more interesting one is) where did this
> 'me/my/mi/ma" etc. come from - grammatically it
> doesn't make a lot of sense when saying thing'my'jig,
> wodya'ma'callit etc... are there parallels in other
> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
> doesn't really belong - or does it? - I'm willing to
> be proved wrong

I've always understood "whatchamacallit" as being a compressed form of
"what(ever) you may call it".

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Ian wrote above about a Russian word:
>
> > штука ('shtukV),
>
> Apparently it comes from German _Stück_ 'piece', 'item'.
>
> > Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
> > Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?
>
> I've heard my Canadian relatives (in Southern Alberta, who also lived in
> Calgary until recently) use this.  It struck me as only a slightly strange
> the first time I heard it, but it was immediately understandable,
> reminiscent of "dealibob," another such term used in the U.S.

Yes, I've heard "dealie" in the US, as well as "dealiebob" and
"dealiebobber".  Around 1982, a particular type of headgear called
"dealiebobbers" became popular, especially among children - they are
basically two long, stiff springs with plastic balls on one end and attached
to a plastic hairband on the other, so that the springs stick up in the air
like antennae and wiggle as you move your head.  I remember it was 1982
because they were sold in large quantities at the World's Fair in Knoxville
that year.

Seems like I've also heard "jobber" used the same way as "doohickey" or
"gadget".

> The sight of those very ancient Ukrainian
> ladies holding miniscule American flags was an unexpected bonus, as was
> the
> jolly company of my little "sub-possy" (from Canada, Italy, Ethiopia,
> Ukraine, Vietnam, Germany, Argentina, England, Bangladesh and Israel)
> during
> the long waits.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Surely you mean "posse" and not "possy".

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: embryomystic at cogeco.ca <embryomystic at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Ian Pollock wrote:
> Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect
> (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) is "dealie." Do any other
> dialects have this word?

I've heard it once or twice from speakers of my own dialect (Kingston,
Ontario, Canada), but I really associate it with
a particular sort of person(ality). And usually, it comes with a whole
circus of words preceding it. "A really neat
party type dealie," for instance.

I.M. Davis
[Isaac]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Kevin:

> Surely you mean "posse" and not "possy".

I surely did. Shame on me!

> "doohickey"

Oh, yes.  There's another one I hear a lot and sometimes use myself!
(Sorry, Tom ...)

"Jobber" was unknown to me.  Perhaps I need to go out more.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 20:11:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:11:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.16 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.16.APR.2005.131123.0700.>

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S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: James Campbell <james at zolid.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]

Ron eskrë »

> "Jobber" was unknown to me.  Perhaps I need to go out more.

I often use 'jobbery' (meaning the same as 'thingummy'), and have done for
15 years or so. Dunno where I picked that one up.

Compare 'jossop' (unspecified liquid) and 'clart' (unspecified gloop). These
were both inherited from my mother, a Northern lass by birth.

James

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
James Campbell                              james at zolid.com  www.zolid.com
Boring, but a cool boring.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

----------

From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Hi Gary,

> are there parallels in other
> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
> doesn't really belong - or does it?

In Limburgish it's quite common to ad 'me' near subject and verb, and to a
lesser extent in Dutch.
cfr 'Hij is me gisteren hier geweest'. 'Hoe noem je me dat?'
It's called a 'dativus Graeccus', stating who 's concerned (if I remember
well).
Grammatically wodya'ma'callit does make sense.

Hou je goed,

Jo Thys

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 20:45:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:45:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.04.16 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.16.APR.2005.134530.0700.>

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From: "Hirano Kazunari" <khirano at transwift.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]

Hi Hahn and all,

Let me introduce Hiroyuki Yokoyama to you all.

Please take a look at the following page created by him.
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak.htm
You will find Aynu (romanization), Aynu (kana) and Esperanto
translations of De Tuunkruper.

You can dowonload the text version here.
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak.txt

You should handle it with Unicode 3.2 or later compliant system and
application.

He also prepared:
Aynu (romanization):
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak_ainu_latin.txt
Aynu (kana):
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak_ainu_kana.txt
Esperanto:
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak_esp.txt

Please feel free to use and process them as you like.
When you upload them to a page on the Web, please tell us.
If we find anything wrong on the page, we will tell you.

Best Regards,
khirano

PS: You can find some info about me and Hiroyuki Yokoyama here:
http://www.openoffice.org/editorial/aynu_team.html

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Introduction

Irankarapte, Kazunari!

Here's my official welcome to the List and to its speakers corner, also my
thanks to you, Yokoyama-sensei and his colleagues.

I will post both versions to the anniversary presentations today.

The Esperanto one is the second one we have, which is fine, since having
alternative versions is always a good thing.

I've posted the Aynu (Ainu) version in Roman script already and will post
the one in Katakana today.  There is a small problem, though, in that some
Aynu-specific letters don't show in any Unicode-compatible fonts I have.
However, I think I can solve this by using smaller-font ル ru, ク ku, etc.

Again, welcome among us, also to Hiroyuki Yokoyama in extension!  I am sure
that many of our other members, being interested in minority languages, are
happy about your efforts to help the Aynu language of Japan and Siberia by
bringing it into the Internet.

Iyayiraykere! Suy unukaran ro!
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Here's a little non-Lowlandic treat for those interested: a snippet of
an Aynu song recorded a century ago by the famous Aynu specialist Bronisław
Piotr Piłsudski: http://panda.bg.univ.gda.pl/ICRAP/ainu.mp3. It reminds me
so much of the songs our our indigenous peoples of the American Pacific
Northwest!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 00:45:48 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:45:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.16 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.16.APR.2005.174548.0700.>

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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]

Ron wrote:

>
>> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Idiomatica
>>
>> Ian wrote above about a Russian word:
>>
>> > штука ('shtukV),
>>
>> Apparently it comes from German _Stück_ 'piece', 'item'.
>>
Hello Ron,

the main meaning of exactly the same word "sztuka"  in Polish language
is HG "Kunst", E "art". But i have heard also "12 sztuk jaj", but may be
that is valid only in West Poland. When I lived in Poland (Poznań), I
have learned that there are some words used in Western Poland but not
understand in other parts of Poland like "kartofle, halbka, sztanga,
lufcik i.t.d." because of their German origin.

Best regards
Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot, Utz!  That's very interesting.

Talking about such loans, and returning to the Lowlands, does anyone know of
a conveniently accessible list of Low Saxon (Low German) loans in Kashubian?
I know that papers have been presented on the topic, but so far I have seen
no publication myself.  By the way, these loans tend to be presented as
"German" in Poland, just as Low Saxon loans in Estonian (also
super-interesting!) are traditionally referred to as German.

Thanks.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 00:47:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:47:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.16 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.16.APR.2005.174711.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.16 (01) [E]

James' (mother's) "jossop" looks like modern Randstad Dutch 'jottum'.
The normal expression in colloquial Dutch is "dinges" for things and
people, and "dingetje" for people, whose name you just can't or don't
want to remember right now...
About "Wodyamacallit" - isn't that just from "what you MAY call it?" or
"what you MIGHT call it?" That would make more sense than "-ma-"
etc from "me"

Ingmar

>From: James Campbell <james at zolid.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]
>
>>Compare 'jossop' (unspecified liquid) and 'clart' (unspecified gloop).
These
>were both inherited from my mother, a Northern lass by birth.
>
>James
>
>From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
>Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]
>
>Hi Gary,
>
>> are there parallels in other
>> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
>> doesn't really belong - or does it?
>
>In Limburgish it's quite common to ad 'me' near subject and verb, and to a
>lesser extent in Dutch.
>cfr 'Hij is me gisteren hier geweest'. 'Hoe noem je me dat?'
>It's called a 'dativus Graeccus', stating who 's concerned (if I remember
>well).
>Grammatically wodya'ma'callit does make sense.
>
>Hou je goed,

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 19:21:43 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:21:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.17 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.122143.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Hi, Gary,

You wrote:

> . are there parallels in other
> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
> doesn't really belong - or does it?

Yes- but not very often.
In LS we say: 'Loot mi de Fingern doorvan.'; HG: 'Lass mir die Finger
davon.'; E: 'Keep off your hands from that.' Or:
LS: 'Du büst mi viellicht 'n feinen Frünnen!'; HG: 'Du bist mir ja ein
rechter Freund!'; E: 'You are _not_ a good friend of mine.'

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm


----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Hi everybody,

Dutch uses "dinges" in the same meaning. It is listed in Van Dale's Groot
Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal.
I remember hearing or reading in English the word "thingamajig".

Roger
>
> From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
>
> Hehe, true, it's a little bizarre when people talk that way, but I
> think cause and effect are a little mixed up here. People say that
> because they're too lazy to insert the actual entities they're
> discussing, but I don't think it's really affecting the language in any
> huge way. We have the same thing happening here in Canada, often. In
> fact I'd bet that most languages have some equivalent. In Russian it's
> это самое ('EtV 'samojE) or штука ('shtukV), in Spanish if I remember
> correctly it's "ese..." If that was being said frequently in Edinburgh
> as you say, I'd call it more of a cultural phenomenon with linguistic
> consequences, wouldn't you? Although I'll agree that with some speakers
> it affects the thought processes.
>
> Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
> Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?
>
> > I regard them and their ilk as such but then I am probably of a much
> > earlier generation than most of you folks. The most atrocious example
> > of all appears in Scots English, the ghastly 'Thingwy' which is used as
> > a substitute for any noun and is often used more than once in a
> > sentence..."Ah went tae thingwy's tae git a thingwy." was commonplace
> > in Working Class Edinburgh in my childhood. Like Orwellian Newspeak it
> > ultimately restricted the thought process and the vocabulary of the
> > users. Far from exclusive to the Working Class I even knew several
> > English academics who adopted it when resident in Scotland.
>
> ----------
>
> From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]
>
> Hi all,
>
> You were talking about, well, whadyacallem?  Doobris (no idea how to
> spell that word - rhymes with blueberries, when pronounced with two
> syllables).  Widgets.  Was hoofer-doofer ever one of these words? I seem
> to remember it was, but now it has the specific meaning of a television
> remote control.
>
> Unfortunately, nominal aphasia means I use a wide variety of these
> words.
>
> What are their Dutch equivalents.  I would find them very useful for
> such sentences as 'Does it have a .... whotsit - you know, little window
> that is in the roof of a house'
>
> Best wishes to all,
>
> Pat
> --
> Pat Reynolds
> pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
>    "It might look a bit messy now,
>                     but just you come back in 500 years time"
>    (T. Pratchett)
>
> ----------
>
> From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]
>
> > From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Lexicon
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > Ron, you said
> >
> > "Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that
only
> > in
> > my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well."
> >
> > Yup, in England I've used thingy before, and thingmyjig, and thingmybob,
> > and
> > plain thingmy and
> > wodyacallit, and...
>
> All those are used here in the US too, although I'd spell them
differently:
>
> Thingamajig, thingamabob, thingamy, whatchamacallit, plus whatsit, whosit,
> whositwhatsit, gadget, doodad, doohickey, doololly, whatchamadoodle,
> whatsisname, whatsisface, and plain ol' thingy.  Probably a lot of others
> too, but I can't think of them right now, and individual speakers often
> create their own variations.
>
> There's even a brand of candy bar called Whatchamacallit.
>
> > From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
> > Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
> >
> > Only person I know who used that was from Durham.
> > Far as bloody Thingwy goes one Aussie friend uses it routinely but his
> > Dad was a Scots wheelwright who obviously brought it with him.
> > My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
> > hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'. I
> > notice US pollies have adopted this in recent years.
>
> Oh, Americans have been using that for decades when they are trying to
sound
> formal.
>
> The one that grates on my ear these days is "Back in the day".  Back in
what
> day?  What happened to "Back in the old days" or "Back when I was young"?
>
> Kevin Caldwell
>
> ----------
>
> From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]
>
>
> "At this point in time."  A pet peeve of mine, also.  I remember it being
> popularized in politics and news reporting during the Nixon/Watergate era
> and considered it a part of the general air of obfuscation rampant then.
It
> spread to the general public here in the States and was quite common by
the
> late 70's - still is, unfortunately.  Sets my teeth on edge every time.
>
> According to http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/
> This redundancy became popular because it was used by astronauts seeking
to
> distinguish precisely between a point in time and a point in space. Since
> most people use the expression in contexts where there is no ambiguity, it
> makes more sense to say simply “at this point” or “at this time.”
>
>   From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
>   Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
>
>   My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
>   hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'.
> ----------
>
> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Me again...
>
> So with regards to our Ron saying 'whatyamacallit'
>
> an additional question to my last etymological one(and
> probably a more interesting one is) where did this
> 'me/my/mi/ma" etc. come from - grammatically it
> doesn't make a lot of sense when saying thing'my'jig,
> wodya'ma'callit etc... are there parallels in other
> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
> doesn't really belong - or does it? - I'm willing to
> be proved wrong
>
> Gary
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Ian wrote above about a Russian word:
>
> > штука ('shtukV),
>
> Apparently it comes from German _Stück_ 'piece', 'item'.
>
> > Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
> > Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?
>
> I've heard my Canadian relatives (in Southern Alberta, who also lived in
> Calgary until recently) use this.  It struck me as only a slightly strange
> the first time I heard it, but it was immediately understandable,
> reminiscent of "dealibob," another such term used in the U.S.
>
> Great to hear from our ... Whatyamacaller ... Pat above.  Hope things are
> going well for you, Pat.
>
> > Unfortunately, nominal aphasia means I use a wide variety of these
> > words.
>
> I confess that that makes at least two of us.  I know our Tom would just
> stomp out in utter disgust if he had to listen to the two of us.
>
> Interesting etymological question there, Gary.  I suspect "my" to have
> slipped in there for some reason.
>
> By the way, thanks for the congratulations, Gary.  (I forgot to say it
last
> night because I was in a rush.)  The sight of those very ancient Ukrainian
> ladies holding miniscule American flags was an unexpected bonus, as was
the
> jolly company of my little "sub-possy" (from Canada, Italy, Ethiopia,
> Ukraine, Vietnam, Germany, Argentina, England, Bangladesh and Israel)
during
> the long waits.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 19:25:02 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:25:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.17 (02) [E/French]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.122502.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.15 (05) [E]


Ingmar wrote:
"Btw, I suppose your friends from A'foort will be both Dutch, Frisians are
Dutch too you know, Friesland is just a Dutch province... I can't say that
my wife Barbara is Dutch and I'm Low Saxon, because the Brabant dialects are
categorized under Dutch and Low Saxon is recognized as a seperate
language... No, we both have the Dutch nationality and ethnicity."

I am merely using the labels with which they refer to themselves. The
husband is from Amersfoort, but the wife is from Drachten in Fryslan proper.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Place names

La Voix du Nord started totay with a weekly etymological clarification of
place namens in French Flanders.
Below: the first article.
FYI,
Regards,
Roger

----
Actualité / Hazebrouck / Page 1 / Article 2
Edition du Dimanche 17 Avril 2005

D'Arnèke �  Borre
Les noms des communes de Flandre intérieure (1)

Aujourd'hui, nous entamons une série d'articles au travers desquels nous
aborderons, chaque dimanche, l'origine des noms de communes de Flandre
intérieure. Pour ce travail, qui sera présenté par ordre alphabétique, de
nombreuses sources ont été consultées, au premier rang desquelles Les Noms
de nos villages de Flandre, d'Albert Deveyer, et, surtout, Études sur les
noms des villes, bourgs et villages du département du Nord , d'Eugène
Mannier.
L'objet de cette série n'est pas d'imposer un point de vue définitif mais
plutôt d'évoquer les principales pistes données par les historiens. De toute
façon, comme on le verra, il y a dans ce domaine beaucoup plus de questions
que de réponses irréfutables.

Arnèke. - Certains ont vu dans ce nom une référence �  un chêne (eek en
flamand) aux aigles ou alors �  un chêne sec ( aren pourrait évoquer ces deux
notions). Il s'agit plus certainement d'un mot d'origine gallo-romaine
(Rentiacum) signifiant propriété d'un certain Rentius.

Bailleul. - Beaucoup d'hypothèses ont été avancées. Ainsi, Bailleul pourrait
venir d'un mot celtique (bala, signifiant source, ou bali, allée d'arbres
conduisant �  une habitation); d'un nom d'homme (Balius ou Belem); du latin
balliolum (enclos fortifié, barricade) ou belgiolum (colonie de Belges); du
gaulois bal ou bel (hauteur); du flamand balie (barrière).

Bavinchove. - Il s'agit ici d'une ferme ou d'un enclos (hove) appartenant �
un nommé Bavo ou Bavon. Eugène Mannier évoque aussi la possibilité de
l'existence �  cet endroit d'une ferme qui versait une dîme au monastère
Saint-Bavon de Gand.

Berthen. - Le suffixe hen est probablement une déformation de hem, un terme
que l'on retrouvera régulièrement au fil de cette série et qui signifiait,
chez les Francs, foyer animé par un chef. Berthen serait ainsi la demeure d'
un certain Berto ou Bertin.

Blaringhem. - Ce village a pour origine l'habitation (hem) des descendants
(ing) d'un chef nommé, selon les sources, Blathar, Blado, Blara, Bladahari,
Blerick, Bladeric ou Baudry.

Boeschèpe. - Le mot bosch signifie bois, en flamand. Quant �  schep ou
schaap, les auteurs le traduisent par mouton ou par source. Boeschèpe serait
ainsi la bergerie ou la source du bois. À moins que, comme ne l'écrit Albert
Deveyer, il ne s'agisse d'une source près de laquelle se serait installé un
chef nommé Bodo ou Boso.

Boëseghem. - Ici, aucun doute: Boëseghem est la demeure (hem) du chef Boso
ou Boson.

Borre. - Ce village doit son nom �  sa situation près d'un cours d'eau.
Eugène Mannier le décompose en deux termes celtiques, bor (bord) et re
(rivière). Albert Deveyer, lui, évoque la racine born qui nous vient du Nord
et qui peut se traduire par source ou fontaine. Le cours d'eau qui passe �
Borre s'appelle la Borre Becque. Il prend naissance �  Lynde et, en
descendant vers Merville et la Lys, on l'appelle la Bourre.

J.-P.V.
(�  suivre)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 20:14:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:14:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.131422.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.16 (03) [E]


Ron wrote: "...By the way, these loans tend to be presented as
"German" in Poland, just as Low Saxon loans in Estonian (also
super-interesting!) are traditionally referred to as German."

Interestingly, when I visited Finland a year or so back, looking through my
phrase book I noticed that the Finnish for "German" is "Saksaa"...

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Paul (above_:

> Interestingly, when I visited Finland a year or so back, looking through
> my phrase book I noticed that the Finnish for "German" is "Saksaa"...

Indeed, or rather _Saksa_ for the country and _saksalainen_ (pl.
_saksalaiset_) for the people, similarly Estonian _Saksamaa_ ("German+land")
for the country and _saksalane_ (pl. _saksalased_) or _Saksa_ for the
people.

People tended to name the non-Scandinavian Germanic peoples by generalizing
the names of the people with which they had contacts.  Hence non-Italian
Romance names for Germany and Germans being based on Allemanns (e.g., French
_Allemagne_, _allemand_, Catalan _Alemanya_, _alemany_, Castilian
_Alemania_, _alemán_, Portuguese _Alemanha_, _alemão_).

However, probably artificially, Finnish and Estonian later came to
distinguish "Germany" from "Saxony": Finnish _Saksi_, Estonian _Saksimaa_,
and "Saxon": Finnish _saksilainen_ (pl. _saksilaiset_), Estonian _saks(i)_,
_saksilane_ (pl. _saksilased_).  All it took was changing one vowel.  (I
don't know if the average speaker of these languages makes mental
connections between these.) And _German(ic)_ required the creation of
another loanword: Finnish _germaaninen_, Estonian _germaani_.

Similarly, Romance languages created words for "Allemannic" (e.g., French
_alémanique_, Castilian _alemánico_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 20:18:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:18:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.17 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.131823.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Events + Resources

Presentation of a new CD with songs in West-Flemish was announced in the
"Westvlams" list. (cf. below)
Regards,
Roger
PS. See also URL: http://www.vintekoor.be with texts of the first two CDs.
----
Groot openluchtconcert op zondag 15 mei 2005 op het Pieter Aernoudtplein te
Bovekerke
't Westvlams Gemiengeld Vintekoor
stelt voor: de nieuwe full-cd "Gif mo slunse !"
gratis optredens van het koor om 14u - 15u30 en 17u
Ter gelegenheid van de lancering wordt de nieuwe cd op 15 mei te koop
aangeboden aan de speciale "fanprijs" van ? 14 ipv ? 16.
Doorlopend openluchtterras met alle nodige natjes en droogjes.
Tijdens de pauzes telkens een bruisend optreden van
"The Fourstreet Dancers", telkens voorafgegaan door de nu reeds traditionele
"rattenworpen"  met honderden gratis prijzen....
gratis toegang tot het plein voor iedereen.
Bij slecht weer gaat alles door in de nabijgelegen gemeenschapszaal "d' Oude
Schole".

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 23:21:34 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:21:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.162134.0700.>

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From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (03) [E]

You may be interested to know that the Russian word for a German is
немец ('njEmIts), which literally means "mute person". This is because,
of course, they couldn't speak the local languages of Slavic countries.
If you don't speak our language, you must be mute.
The only exception to this rule I know of is the word for Germany
itself - Германия (gjErm'anijV), although I'm not sure that holds true
through all the Slavic languages. As I recall Ukrainian has a word
related to немець for the country as well.
-Ian Pollock

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (03) [E]

Lieve Leeglanners,

Ron spoke of generalizing other ethnic groups. Reminds
me of the Russian word _nemetz_ for German; literally,
_not of us_. In a way, I felt like that about the US
Admiral Chester NIMITZ.
Grueten,
Arthur

Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners,
(English below)

miin Woord van vandoog is:

LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'Hündin, E: 'bitch'.

Ditt Woord waard ook ne meer foken bruukt, in miin Tiid as Jungkeerl hevvt
wi 't noch goud kennt.

In miin etymoloog'sch Wöörbökers (Oul-Sassisch, Oul-Frees'sch, Oul-Ingelsch)
steit dor heel nix över, obschounst ick glööv, wat door wat tohaup hangen
kunn mit dat Ingelsche E: 'tiff', HG: 'kleine Meinungsverschiedenheit'.

Is dat an dennen Innen van Franzöös'schen  Orsprong?

***

Dear Lowland-folk,

my today's word is:

LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'Hündin, E: 'bitch'.

We don't use this word often in our times, but I still know it well from my
teen-ages.

I can't discover itself and the family in my etymological lexica, as there
are Old-Saxon, Old-Frisian and Old-English, though I found E: 'tiff' in the
meaning of HG: 'kleine Meinungsverschiedenheit'. There is a slight
(halfpennie-worth; is it still in use??) idea they could relate.

Is it of French origin at last?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ian (above):

> The only exception to this rule I know of is the word for Germany
> itself - Германия (gjErm'anijV), although I'm not sure that holds true
> through all the Slavic languages. As I recall Ukrainian has a word
> related to немець for the country as well.

So Russian makes a difference between the ethnicity/language and the
country: adjectival "German": немецкий _nemeckij_ (ethnic/linguistic) vs
германский _germanskij_ (pertaining to the country).  I've always preferred
this from a diversity point of view.

Ukrainian: німецький _nimec'kyj_ vs германський _herman'skyj_, country:
Германiя ~
Німеччина  _Hermanija_ ~ _Nimeččyna_

Belarusian: adjective: нямечки _njamečki_, country: Нямеччына _Njameččyna

Polish: adjective: _niemiecki_, country: _Niemcy_

Czech: adjective: _německý_, country:  _Německa_


Upper Sorbian: adjective: adjective: _ němski_, language: _němčina_, person:
_němc_ (pl.) _němcy_), country: _Němska_ ~ _Němskeje_, regions: Němcy

Jonny (above):

> LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'Hündin, E: 'bitch'.

Oh, man, Jonny!  Dat is maal wedder 'n radel!

De etymologen weett niks vun de afkumst vun Ingelsch _tiff_ af, ook niks vun
_snit_ 'vuynsch-syn_, _muksch-syn_.

The origin of English "tiff" appears to be obscure, as is that of "snit."

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 23:44:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:44:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.164440.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Anniversary

Dear Lowlanders,

The moment has arrived: Lowlands-L is 10 years old now, and we are revealing
our anniversary party project (at least to those of you who have not been
naughty peepers).

You can reach the presentation by either going to our homepage
(http://www.lowlands-l.net) and clicking on the anniversary button or by
going directly to http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/.

Obviously, the project isn't quite finished, though it seems presentable and
Mathieu, Henry and I have been working very hard on it (at a time when we
were particularly busy with other things), as have been a few of you who
have gone beyond the call.  Thanks to everyone who has helped with this so
far.  You can find a list of them under "About this site" and "The Project
Team".)

Several sound files are still to come, especially those that Henry is having
to make from cassette recordings.  Also, I haven't gotten around to making
my own sound recordings, have either been too busy or suffering from spring
allergies.  So, please keep participating in the creation of this resource.

The presentation will remain as a party that will end only when the last
guest has left.  So it is an ongoing project.  Please bear this in mind, and
keep helping us with it.

Short of spewing sentimental drivel, there is nothing I could or should add
to what I already say under "How it began" and "Reflections" (both under
"What is Lowlands-L?") as well as in my personal introduction (under "What
is Lowlands-L?" and "People"), except "Thanks to each and everyone of you
for your enthusiasm, support and friendship all these years!"

Yours on behalf of the administrative and anniversary project team,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 18 04:07:58 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:07:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.210758.0700.>

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi everyone.

Jonny, you wrote:

"LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'Hündin, E: 'bitch'.

We don't use this word often in our times, but I still know it well from my
teen-ages."

Could this be at all related somewhat obscurely to Middle Saxon 'tike' also
meaning bitch coming from Germanic tikô?

"though I found E: 'tiff' in the meaning of HG: 'kleine
Meinungsverschiedenheit'. There
is a slight (halfpennie-worth; is it still in use??) idea they could
relate."

The halfpenny has sadly passed away, although the phrase lives on, albeit a
bit dated. Or did you mean the word 'tiff' which is very much alive, and is
also in such phrases as 'He's in a tiff', or 'She's having a tiff' meaning
they're in a bad mood. My etymology states for English tiff 18th Century
obscure.

Gary

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> People tended to name the non-Scandinavian Germanic peoples by
generalizing
> the names of the people with which they had contacts.

This still happened recently. In my Limburgish we still use "Pruis" for
"German" etc.

Rhenania (Rheinland) became Prussian in 1815 (till 1918). The term
"Prussian" was extended to all Germans in our local dialect.

Regards,

Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Roger,

Doesn't the "Prussian" thing apply to practically all Limburgish, Low
Franconian and Low Saxon varieties of Belgium and the Netherlands near the
German border?

Incidentally, the original name _Pruyss_ (<Prüß>) [pry:s] 'Prussian' and
related words came to be replaced by the German loan _Preuß(e)_ [prOIs(e)]
in most Low Saxon dialects of Germany, also _Oost-Pruyssen_ (<Oostprüßen>)
giving way to German-based _Ostpreußen_ 'Eastern Prussia'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 18 04:11:36 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:11:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.211136.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]

Leeve Laaglanners,

Ron wrote,

>suffering from spring allergies

...as an excuse for not having finished his sound recordings for the
Anniversary site.
But aren't spring allergies a basic part of your phonetic system? And isn't
that one of the strongest links to Phlegmish?  ;-)

Ja, ik ben gek.

Arthur

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Arthur,

Sure!  I'd take Phlegmish over Phlegmatish any day, but it sure ain't no
pretty picture.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 18 15:07:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:07:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.18.APR.2005.080730.0700.>

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From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Etymology


Moi Jonny,

Bi'j oonz in Drenthe kent wi'j dat woord as Teef, Teve.
Name van een vrouwgieshond. Maor 't wurdt ok as schimpwoord veur sommigen
van 't vrouwelijk geslacht bruukt.

In mien Nederlaans etymologisch woordenboek stiet 't as volgt.
Teef, (Middelnederlaans) 1240 tẽue. (Middelnederduuts) 1227 tēve.
(Oldengels) tife.

(Hoogduutsdialect) ziwwe. (Noordfries) teww.



Goodgaon,

Arend Victorie.


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Arend, Leyglanders,

"Teev'" [te:.v] wardt ook in welke Neddersassischen dialekten up de Duytsche
syd' bruukt, hyr un daar ook noch old "teve" ['te:ve], meyrtal "teven"
['te:v=m].  "Tif" [tIf] (meyrtal "tiffen" ['tIf=m]) is begenglich in de
dialekten, dey geyrn verkörten dout un d'n sleeptoon verlaren hebt.

In welke dialekten is ook "tsip" [(t)sIp] (meyrtal "tsippen" ['(t)sIp=m])
<Zipp(en)> begenglich.  Dat mutt 'n leenwoord vun "Middel-"Duytsche
dialekten syn, dat mit düsse woyrd' verwandt is, wyl dat al or de meyrsten
woyrd' mit "ts-" vun annere spraken af-koymen, tou meyrst vun 't Duytsche
(so as _tsop_ neven _top_ 'hair braid'), un 'n paar koymen vun 't Latynsche
af, sachs oever 't Duytsche, so as "tsippel" (onion) < _Zippel_ (~
_Zwiebel_) < _cæpul(l)a_ < _cæpa_.  Anners schul wat in 't Duytsche /ts-/
(<z->) is in 't Neddersassische /t-/ syn.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 18 15:40:47 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:40:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.18 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.18.APR.2005.084047.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]

Great, geweldig, groot-ardig, alderbarstend mooi man, Hiep Hiep Hoera!

Only one thingwy: I can't find the A-site anymore through typing
"lowlands-l" + "anniversary". Until a week or so ago that was the way to
find it when I was not at home. But now Google doesn't react at anything,
I just get shtuff like "Learn Dutch on line" etc... Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
>Subject: Anniversary
>
>Dear Lowlanders,
>
>The moment has arrived: Lowlands-L is 10 years old now, and we are
revealing
>our anniversary party project (at least to those of you who have not been
>naughty peepers).
>
>You can reach the presentation by either going to our homepage
>(http://www.lowlands-l.net) and clicking on the anniversary button or by
>going directly to http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/.

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]

Arthur wrote:
> >suffering from spring allergies
>
> ...as an excuse for not having finished his sound recordings for the
> Anniversary site.
> But aren't spring allergies a basic part of your phonetic system? And
isn't
> that one of the strongest links to Phlegmish?  ;-)

How come you get away with this (ouch, that's a baaad one!) without being
relegated to la galerie de cacahuètes??

> Ja, ik ben gek.

Nee, ik ben GEK!
Gabriele E. Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Ingmar (above):

> Only one thingwy: I can't find the A-site anymore through typing
> "lowlands-l" + "anniversary". Until a week or so ago that was the way to
> find it when I was not at home. But now Google doesn't react at anything,
> I just get shtuff like "Learn Dutch on line" etc... Ingmar

I don't know why this is.  Perhaps it is a reaction to me having linked to
it from the LL-L pages, which is in the root directory.  Search engines tend
to take a few days to catch up, anyway.

> How come you get away with this (ouch, that's a baaad one!) without being
> relegated to la galerie de cacahuètes??

I beg your pardon?!  Fair go!  I *never* relegate anyone to it!  People
occasionally opt for the cheaper seats and start playing the part, some more
often than others.  Especially when he's in a party mood, Arthur
occasionally just feels like being in the presence of _sa majesté, la reine
de la galerie des cacahuètes_ herself.  He would say so himself if he knew
how to say "peanut gallery" in Gothic.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 00:09:43 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:09:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.18.APR.2005.170943.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (05) [E/LS]

Leeve Reinhard un'Gary,

Ji schreeven:

> LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'Hündin, E: 'bitch'.

> Oh, man, Jonny!  Dat is maal wedder 'n radel!

un' Gary:

> Could this be at all related somewhat obscurely to Middle Saxon 'tike'
> also
> meaning bitch coming from Germanic tikô?

Weest bedankt föör Jaun Möh, ook wenn mi dat al ne sou recht wiider holpen
hett. Schiint jo een oosig Woord tou ween, wat mi door inne Mööt komen is.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

---------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (01) [E]

Daag, Arend,

Du schreevst (according to "Tiff"):

> Bi'j oonz in Drenthe kent wi'j dat woord as Teef, Teve.
> Name van een vrouwgieshond. Maor 't wurdt ok as schimpwoord veur sommigen
> van 't vrouwelijk geslacht bruukt.
>
> In mien Nederlaans etymologisch woordenboek stiet 't as volgt.
> Teef, (Middelnederlaans) 1240 tẽue. (Middelnederduuts) 1227 tēve.
> (Oldengels) tife.
>
Wees bedankt! Dat het holpen.

> (Hoogduutsdialect) ziwwe. (Noordfries) teww.
Un' hier hevvt wi denen Betog funnen to dat Woord HG: 'Zippe', ook bruukt
för wiivlich' Deeren, as Kanin, Teeg, Schoopen [heet ook 'Jitten',hier]....

Best' Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners, Reinhard,
(English below)

vandoog nu obers 'n Woord, door weet wi allerhand van, man- an dennen Innen
sitt dor ook weller 'n lütten Düvel binnen.

LS: *Tofalsteen*, ook *Tafelsteen*,  HG:'Würfel', E: 'dice'.

In de etymoloogschen Wöörbökers finn ick:

Old Saxon: 'tafalsteen' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
Old Frisian: 'tofalla', HG:'zufallen', E:'fall to...',;
Old English: 'tabele', HG: 'Brettspiel', E:'board game';
Old High German: 'zabalstein' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
Old High German: 'zabalon' HG: 'zappeln,', E: 'to struggle, wriggle'.

Waard dat in anner Lowlann'sche Sprooken ook sou bruukt?
Welk nedderdüütsche Etymologen meent, dat müss 'Tafelsteen' schreeven
waar'n, wieldes dat Woord van lat. 'tabula' herkeem.
Ick denk, 'Tofal[l]steen' weer beter; hangt mit dennen 'Tofall', HG:
'Zufall', E: 'accident','chance' tohaup.
Or müss dat an dennen Innen 'Zappelsteen' ween?

Sou- nu ist 't naug; anners waard door noch 'n 'Sabbelsteen'
('gossip-stone')van! ;-)

***

Dear Lowlanders, Reinhard,

about my today's word we know a lot- but a little devil could have hidden
inside, too.

LS: *Tofalsteen*, ook *Tafelsteen*,  HG:'Würfel', E: 'dice'.

In the etymological dictionaries I find:

Old Saxon: 'tafalsteen' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
Old Frisian: 'tofalla', HG:'zufallen', E:'fall to...';
Old English: 'tabele', HG: 'Brettspiel', E:'board game';
Old High German: 'zabalstein' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
Old High German: 'zabalon' HG: 'zappeln,', E: 'to struggle, wriggle'.

Is it used and known in other Lowlandic-languages?
Some Low-Saxon etymologists think, it should be written 'Tafelsteen',
because it's related to lat. 'tabula'.
I'd prefer 'Tofal[l]steen', because I guess it to be cognate with 'Tofall',
HG: 'Zufall', E: 'accident','chance'.
Or should 'Zappelsteen' be best at the end?

I have to stop now- otherwise it could become a 'Sabbelsteen'
('gossip-stone') at last! ;-)

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]

Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I have only heard it in
two words:  hillock and bullock. In hillock, it sounds like a diminutive. A
bullock is a baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

[English below]

Tja, leyve Jonny. Dayt my leyd, dat ik Dyn seypen-blaas' tou 't barsten
bringen mut.  Dat is 'n val vun _schön wär's_.  In 't Old-Sassische is dat
_tāfalstên_.  _Tāfla_ beduydt in dey spraak nich "disch" (dat is _biod_ or
_disk_); dat beduydt _speelbreed_ or _wörpel-breed_, un dat gayt schynt up
Latynsch _tabula_ trüg.  'n Wörpel al-gemeyn is in 't Old-Sassische _wurpil_
(mit _werp_ 'Wurf' verwandt).  'n Wörpel-speler is 'n _tāflėri_.

Sorry I had to burst our Jonny's bubble. Old Saxon _tāfalstên_ 'dice'
(containing the word for 'stone') has nothing to do with "accident" or
"coincident" (Modern Low Saxon _tou-val_).  It comes from _tāfla_ (< Latin
_tabula_), which in Old Saxon does not mean 'table' (which would be _biod_
or _disk_) but 'game board'. A dice player is a _tāflėri_ ("tabler"), and
'dice' generally is _wurpil_ (related to the verb for 'cast', cf. German
_Wurf_ and Old English _weorp_ 'throw', 'cast' [nominal]); cf. Modern Low
Saxon _wörpel_ and Modern German _Würfel_.

And the plot thickens:

Old English has _tæfl_ meaning both 'dice' and 'game of dice'.  If you are
good and quick at throwing dice you are _hrædtæfle_ in Old English, from
_hræd_ 'in a hurry'.

I don't know what the Old Saxon word for 'accident' or 'coincident' is.
Does anyone else?

The Old Saxon word for 'to kick', 'to jiggle', etc. (German _zappeln_) is
_spartalōn_, hence the ancestor of Modern Low Saxon _sparteln_ ~ _spatteln_
~ _spaddeln_ with the same meaning, perhaps related to Old English
_spearnlian_ ~ _spréawlian_ with the same meaning.

Another interesting Old Saxon word: _ālmėri_ ("all sea") 'Zuiderzee'.  What
is it in Old Low Franconian and Old Frisian?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 01:21:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:21:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.18 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.18.APR.2005.182141.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]

Hey, if you speak Portuguese or a West African language, then that is not an
excuse, as you need your nose for all those nasal vowels. Tenta de novo. Não
tens nenhum problema!

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.18 (02) [E]

Liobothi Dalathlandarjes!

So the Anniversary Party kabouters have already started celebrating!

Gabriele, I didn't know you had a trade mark on "GEK", although I suppose
it's no coincidence. After all, it takes lots of "elan(d)" to be a Global
Moose. Imagine eing sentenced to a life of "cerf"-dom!

As to "galerie de cacahuetes", I still can't see what
 French department store has to do with it. ;-)
As to Gothic, I doubt that they would have flown
commercial class on Lufthansa, ergo keine Erdnuesse.
Still, we could call your Peanut Gallery the
_gamainjo-stols_ , usually reserved for those Goths
who made rude noises of a digestive nature during
solemn ceremonies, such as beheading of Roman
soldiers, etc.

Happy Anniversary, Ron and all! Your combined
contributions to the preservation --and the
liveliness-- of Lowlands Germanic tongues have earned
huge rounds of applause. Minority languages are among
the most basic and essential of human rights: The
right to an identity.

And to those who would rob us of our identities, a
Goth would have said: "Ogs! Ogs mikils!" (Be Afraid!
Be very  afraid!).

Arthur

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Arþurs unsar (her iupa):

> Happy Anniversary, Ron and all!

And Happy Anniversary to you, an aw, Arthur an Robin!  And thanks for being
such a good sport, Arthur!

> So the Anniversary Party kabouters have already started celebrating!

Indeed they have.  Party hats are being handed out as we speak.  There's
nothing wrong with some celebratory fun, frolic and frivolity after ten
years.

Being skilled in legal protection (in case the neighbors call the militia on
us) as well as being skilled in the not so rare art of painful puns, you
might do us the honor of acting as the _fríols béaggiefa_ (which is my own
Old English equivalent of _master of ceremony_, literally "shindig's bigwig"
in geræde Ní-Englisc), or, since you are our resident Gothophiliac,
_gabaûrfaûraþmaleis_.

I am sure that _Sa Majesté_ will graciously open her throne room to the
throngs of common revelers for the occasion.  _Gamainjo-stols_ they may be,
the cheap seats of the peanut gallery.  In Low Saxon, being that it is
relegated to the rurally rough and rugged, _ruge boen_ (['ru:ge bø:n] "rough
loft" = 'hayloft') springs to mind.

I would like to thank all of you who contributed sound files to the
anniversary project so far.  They are all terrific, and I detected much
theatrical talent in our midst.

I am surprised no one has so far commented on our Dave Singleton's Southern
Yorkshire/Derbyshire English translation and narration.  (It reads and
sounds just grand, Dave!)  There seems to be quite a bit of material there
for those of you interested in American English, including Appalachian.

Thanks also to those of you who have written to me privately in response to
the unveiling.

As you were!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 14:33:20 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:33:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.19 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.073320.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: Anniversary

Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]

Great, geweldig, groot-ardig, alderbarstend mooi man, Hiep Hiep Hoera!

Only one thingwy:

GRRRRR ! Pray God I have niot started an epidemic spreading this of all
words. :-)
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Lexicon

'Fraid you may have, Tom.  While you thought you were talking about lexical
impoverishment you were inadvertently enriching certain people's lexicon.
Hard to stop it now.

Sorry.

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 14:37:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:37:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.19 (02) [German]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.073722.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Delectables

Liebe Lowländer,

dieses Rezept erhielt ich heute per Fax von einem Kollegen:

Gourmet-Rezept für Truthahn mit Whiskey

Man kaufe einen Truthahn von 5 kg (für 6 Personen) und eine Flasche Whiskey.
Dazu Salz, Pfeffer, Olivenöl und Speckstreifen.

Truthahn salzen, pfeffern, mit Speckstreifen belegen, schnüren und etwas
Olivenöl hinzugeben. Ofen auf 200° vorheizen, dann ein Glas Whiskey auf
gutes Gelingen trinken. Anschließend den Truthahn auf einem Backblech in den
Ofen schieben. Nun schenke man sich zwei schnelle Gläser Whiskey ein und
trinke nochmals auf gutes Gelingen.

Nach 20 Minuten den Thermostat auf 250 ° stellen, damit es ordentlich
brummt. Danach schenkt man sich drei Whiskey ein.

Nach ner halm Schdunde öffnen, wenden un den Braten überwachen, Die
Fisskieflasche nehmen unn sich ein hinner de Bindse kippn.

Nach ,ner albernen Schdunnnde langsam zzum Ofen hinschlendern unn die
truterumwnden.
Darauf achtn, mer sich nicht die Hand verbrenn an der Schaiss-Ohfndür. Sich
waidere ffpnff odda siebn Wixki innem Glas sich unn dann unn so.

D' Drute drrai Sinn't (iss auch egal!) waiderbraan unn all ?ehn Minud'n
pinkeln.
Wenn üerntwi möchlisch, ßumm Trathuhn hinkrieschn unn den Ohwn aus'm Viech
ziehn.

Noch mal n Schlugg geneemig un anschliessen wida fäsuchn, das Biest
raussugrieng. Den fedammt'n Vorel vom Boden aufflese un auff'ner Bladde
hinrichten. Auffbasse, dass d nich ausrutschn auff'm schaißfettichn
Küchnbodn. Wenn s sich droßdem nich fameidn läss, fesuhn wida
aufßuschichtnodersohahaidallesjaaeeehscheißegaaal!!!!

Bissnschlafn.

Am nächsten Tag den Truthahn mit Mayonaise und Aspirin kalt essen.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 14:44:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:44:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (03) [A/E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.074407.0700.>

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From: embryomystic at cogeco.ca <embryomystic at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

Ben Bloomgren wrote:
> Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I
> have only heard it in two words:  hillock and bullock.
> In hillock, it sounds like a diminutive. A bullock is a
> baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?

I don't know whether this is the origin of the endings on hillock and
bullock, but Scots has a diminutive ending -ock.
It comes from the Gaelic -ag (the final consonant is unvoiced, I'm told),
which is also a diminutive, cognate to Irish -óg. It's used in Scots quite
productively, I understand, and sometimes paired with the other
diminutive, -ie, to produce -ockie.

Regards,

Isaac M. Davis

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Etymology" 2005.04.18 (01) [A]

Dag julle,

In Afrikaans is 'teef/tewe' ook 'n wyfiehond, en gebruiklik as skeldnaam vir
'n veglustige vrou.

Ron, ek ken 'tjip' (betekenis: bemoeisiek of skinderbek) in Afrikaans maar
dis nie gebruiklik in Afrikaans nie, en ek dink dit kom van Oos-Kaapse
Engels.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

>Name van een vrouwgieshond. Maor 't wurdt ok as schimpwoord veur sommigen
van 't vrouwelijk geslacht bruukt.

In welke dialekten is ook "tsip" [(t)sIp] (meyrtal "tsippen" ['(t)sIp=m])
<Zipp(en)> begenglich.

---------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

> LS: *Tofalsteen*, ook *Tafelsteen*,  HG:'Würfel', E: 'dice'.
>
> In de etymoloogschen Wöörbökers finn ick:
>
> Old Saxon: 'tafalsteen' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
> Old Frisian: 'tofalla', HG:'zufallen', E:'fall to...',;
> Old English: 'tabele', HG: 'Brettspiel', E:'board game';
> Old High German: 'zabalstein' HG: 'Würfel', E: 'dice';
> Old High German: 'zabalon' HG: 'zappeln,', E: 'to struggle, wriggle'.
>
> Waard dat in anner Lowlann'sche Sprooken ook sou bruukt?

But of course. The Dutch word for a die (pl. dice) is "dobbelsteen".

Anything to keep you happy, Jonny... ;-)
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (07) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> People tended to name the non-Scandinavian Germanic peoples by
generalizing
> the names of the people with which they had contacts.<

See also Amish:

"You be careful out among the English"  from the film Witness : this must
be one of the best quoted sentences from any modern film, spoken by the
Amish farmer, Jakob

Heather

PS Still trying to follow up on the recent comment that the relationship
between Italo-celtic languages has been debunked. All the recent books I
have checked so far are still referring to it. Could I have some direction
in which to look for the 'debunkers'. I found a very emotional web forum
where a member was using DNA results ( unproven?) to link all sorts of
unlikely countries/peoples and thereby proving ( so he said) that the
accepted IE family history was twaddle. UNfortunately he made the mistake
of thinking that a  single langugae would restrict its use to a single DNA
group.... which of course it doesn't and probably never has except
millions/hundreds of thousands of years ago.

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I have only heard it in
two words:  hillock and bullock. In hillock, it sounds like a diminutive. A
bullock is a baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?
Ben<

It is as you suggested a diminutive and there are many more than one
expects:  paddock   hassock   mattock   dunnock ( bird)   tussock -  not
forgetting 'small balls' !
OED gives it as Old English  -oc  or -uc

Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 17:21:56 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:21:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.102156.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.19 (02) [German]

For Jonny, It has finally become clear why I spent all this time to
"refamiliarize" myself with Lowland Saxon. Thanks for the recipe. I'll
have to try it one of these days with my favorite libation. Jacqueline

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 18:12:13 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:12:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (05) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.111213.0700.>

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From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

Dag Jonny,

> Welk nedderdüütsche Etymologen meent, dat müss 'Tafelsteen' schreeven
> waar'n, wieldes dat Woord van lat. 'tabula' herkeem.

Het Nederlandse 'dobbelsteen' zou  van het Lat. duplus (het dubbele) komen
(Ofrans doble). Misschien zijn ze verwant?
Groeten,

Jo Thys

----------

From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]


>From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
>Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]
>
>Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I have only heard
>it in
>two words:  hillock and bullock. In hillock, it sounds like a
>diminutive. A
>bullock is a baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?
>Ben

It looks me related to (regional, dialectical) Dutch -ke(n), German -chen
which is also the diminutive. In standard Dutch it has generally developed
into -tje and its several variants (for example -pje, -je, ...)
In the older Germanic days the vowel was a long î, still so in Middle Dutch:
een mannekijn, a little man (origin of the French word "mannequin")
It often triggers umlaut as well, I think always in German, and often in
eastern Dutch dialects. We in Antwerp say "e manneke", someone I know from
some few tens of kilometers to my east says "e menneke".
It always has the neuter grammatical gender (in both languages).

But I have no sources that tell me Old English has this ending? Maybe those
2 relict forms are the only ones left since the last 1500 years...? (or
otherwise I have to look better, I'll tell if I have result)

Diederik Masure

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

Diederik:

> It looks me related to (regional, dialectical) Dutch -ke(n), German -chen

Isaac:

> I don't know whether this is the origin of the endings on hillock and
> bullock, but Scots has a diminutive ending -ock.
> It comes from the Gaelic -ag (the final consonant is unvoiced, I'm told),
> which is also a diminutive, cognate to Irish -óg. It's used in Scots quite
> productively, I understand, and sometimes paired with the other
> diminutive, -ie, to produce -ockie.

Both of you may be on to something there, but probably on a very ancient
level.  Add to this Slavonic diminutive _-ek_, _-ak_, _-i_, _-yk_ and _-uk_.

This seems to correspond with Iranic diminutive _-ak_, _-uk_ (e.g., Balochi
_pîruk_ 'grandfather' < _pîr_ 'old', hence "oldie") and _-ik_ (e.g., Balochi
_šanik(k)_ 'kid').

I assume that the Germanic suffixes Diederik mentions are suffix compounds
(something like *_-k-e(-n)_), just as in Slavonic you seem to get a lot of
permutations, even double diminutives, involving the _-k_ (* _-ik-'-ka_ >
_-ička_ etc.), and some of these came to be adopted by non-Indo-European
Hungarian.

The _-n_ part may be related to Celtic diminutive _-n_, _-an_, _-en_, _-yn_
(e.g., Welsh _edyf_ 'thread' -> diminutive _edefyn_, _carej_ 'carriage' ->
diminutive _carejen_ ~ _carejan_).

Our Andy writes about Scots:

"A northern diminutive suffix <ag> exists: The wee bairnag - The small
child."

(http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/nnscots.htm)

Also double diminutives as in _hooseockie_ (small house), _wifeockie_
(little woman) .

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 22:18:53 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:18:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.151853.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

We should ask Henry P. about this, because when I'm right he lives in a
town called Almere, situated in Flevoland, one of the polders in the
IJsselmeer, the former Zuiderzee (Suydersee). In the Netherlands, <Almere>
is usually translated as <great/big sea>. Whether that is Frisian or Dutch
I don't know. Friesland lies to the North East of the Zuiderzee, Low Saxon
speaking Overijssel and Guelders (Gelderland) to the East, and Noord-
Holland, including West-Friesland is West of it.

Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Ingmar.

Very interesting!  Unfortunately, there are some email problems between our
Henry and us at the moment.  I'll try to get the request to him another way.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: This is what I had written:
>  Another interesting Old Saxon word: _ālmėri_ ("all sea") 'Zuiderzee'.
> What is it in Old Low Franconian and Old Frisian?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 22:22:34 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:22:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Call for papers" 2005.04.19 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.152234.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Call for papers

For everyone's attention.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From: "Editor, Journal of Germanic Mythology & Folkore" editor at jgmf.org


Call for Submissions to the Journal of Germanic Mythology and Folklore

Call for Articles & Reviews:
Journal of Germanic Mythology and Folklore
http://www.jgmf.org

Contributions for the third issue are accepted now through May 15,
2004.  Please see our web site for more information.

  Issues coming on May 30 and December 30.

  Contributions in the areas of Germanic mythology and folklore (all
approaches welcomed).  The Journal of Germanic Mythology and Folklore
hopes to stimulate interest and bring to light new scholarship as well
as to dispel misinterpretations and misunderstandings.

With the first issue appearing January 2004,  this new free web-based
journal is designed as a forum to share new scholarship on topics
relating to Germanic (sometimes referred to as Norse or Teutonic)
mythology and folklore (ancient, medieval and modern).

  Submissions are accepted from professional scholars, graduate students
and community (non-academic) scholars.
  All authors of accepted articles receive two free printed copies of
the issue in which their article was
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 20 14:18:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:18:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2005.04.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.20.APR.2005.071822.0700.>

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From: "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.19 (01) [E/LS]

Does anybody have any idea where I might find PHP code for a
multilingual dictionary software? Sort of like Glossword, but more
like that used at http://www.friul.net/multilingue/index.php - ie, it
lists the words all next to each other, rather than having to select
different dictionaries (?)

Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 20 14:19:51 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:19:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.20 (02) [E]
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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.19 (01) [E/LS]

On 20/04/2005, at 12:33 AM, R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com wrote:

> From:
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> 'Fraid you may have, Tom.  While you thought you were talking about
> lexical
> impoverishment you were inadvertently enriching certain people's
> lexicon.
> Hard to stop it now.

Yeah but....No but...Well I mean Yeah......etc. :-)
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 20 14:21:55 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:21:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.20 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.20.APR.2005.072155.0700.>

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From: embryomystic at cogeco.ca <embryomystic at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (03) [A/E/LS]

Heather Rendall wrote:

> PS Still trying to follow up on the recent comment that
> the relationship between Italo-celtic languages has been
> debunked. All the recent books I have checked so far are
> still referring to it. Could I have some direction in
> which to look for the 'debunkers'. I found a very
> emotional web forum where a member was using DNA results
> ( unproven?) to link all sorts of unlikely
> countries/peoples and thereby proving ( so he said) that
> the accepted IE family history was twaddle.
> UNfortunately he made the mistake of thinking that a
> single langugae would restrict its use to a single DNA
> group.... which of course it doesn't and probably never
> has except millions/hundreds of thousands of years ago.

I can't really provide any backup for my initial statement. It's just
something I've heard in a few different places, none that I can be specific
about. I'm not particularly attached to the theory, and it could go either
way and I'd be fine with it. If you have recent published materials that
acknowledge it as a reasonable theory, then maybe my (vague) sources are
wrong. No worries.

It's pretty clear to me that attempting to tie language groups to genetic
ones is a fool's errand; look at the Y-chromosome results which show that
there's a group of men (or rather Y-chromosomes) whose frequency in the
overall population increases as you move westward in Europe, reaching its
highest percentages in, I think, western Ireland and the Basqueland. This
would suggest to me that in spite of the prevalence of two IE languages from
separate subgroups in Ireland, the people themselves are largely the same as
those who initially colonised it after the retreat of the glaciers.

Keep me updated, though, on-list or off-, if you discover anything
discussing the debunking of the Italo-Celtic theory, or a debunking of a
supposed debunking.

Regards,

Isaac M. Davis

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 00:08:16 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:08:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.20 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.20.APR.2005.170816.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (03) [A/E/LS]

Dear Gabriele, Jo and Reinhard,

concerning Gabrieles 'dobbelsteen': I have!! to be happy, because You an Jo
pointed up the fourth possible version in this topic!

Didn't I guess a little devil sitting around?

I'll put it down, written as *Tob[b]elsteen* in my own little Neddersassisch
dictionary: I no longer don't think it to be a 'Tafelsteen' or 'Tofallsteen'
from it's derive at all.

Thanks!

Very special Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 15:13:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:13:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.081322.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]


As Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca> noted, штука is indeed the Russian for
"thingy, thingamabob, etc".

However, starting sometime early in the 90s (at least that's when I first
remember hearing it), there was an additional meaning that sprung (sprang?)
up, that could potentially (at least in my world of what-if semantics) cause
ambiguity ... at least when the speaker was a woman. To wit, штука = 1000
rubles.

I had thought this usage had all but died out with the erasing of three
zeros from the currency, but recently I ran across this sentence from
internet chat-room chatter from November 2003:


 Ну дома то я платила штуку в месяц, а теперь - халява :-))).

Which would be (spoken with a woman's voice, pitched about a major fifth
higher than is natural, as it "normal" for women there ... and here in Japan
as well):  "Well, at home I used to pay 1000 rubles a month, but now I don't
pay (diddly)-squat." (okay, maybe "diddly-squat" is not a female idiom;
can't say I ever remember my wife using it ... but you gte the picture: "not
a red cent".)

Now, MY (related) question: "Thingy, etc" are used (mainly) when we need to
refer to something that we (temporarily, at least) can't pull up the
appropriate noun for. Can anyone out there come up with anlaogous verbs, or
adjectives? Other than English, that is, which seems capable of using
practically any noun as a verb: "Yesterday I was going downtown to
whatchamacallit", etc.

I remain, how do you say, ... uhh, ... whatever,

Mike Morgan
Kobe City University of Foreign Studies

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 15:16:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:16:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (02) [E]
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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (05) [E/LS]


I almost pushed the reply button as soon as I read Ian Pollock's question
about whether other (other than Russian that is) Slavic languages have a
"mute"-based word for the name of the country as well, or, like Russian, use
a variation on Германия.

However, I have long ago learned to scroll down to the bottom of the message
where Reinhard/Ron gives his 2-cents worth ... because he usually has the
answer ...  (^o^).

And this time, again, he did as well:

Ukrainian: Германiя ~ Німеччина (both)
Belarusian: Нямеччына
Polish: Niemcy
Czech: Německa
Upper Sorbian: Němska ~ Němskeje

One correction: unless R/R is giving a dialect form I'm not aware of, Czech
is Německo, a neuter, not a feminine -- unlike ALL the others, which are
feminines). And Slovak, (oh, let's NOT forget Slovak) is Nemecko ... without
the háček over the first "e". Also note that the Polish is a bit of an
oddball-out: it is a plural; literalyl: "The Germans"; all the others are
singulars.

I could leave it at that (well, someone else might could, _I_ can't), but I
WAS all set to answer, so I will anyway ... and help give an even MORE
complete picture. So we can add:

Croatian: Njemčaka
Serbian: Немчака
Bosnian: ... okay, let's not fool anyone; on purely linguistic grounds,
Bosnian + Croatian + Serbian is REALLY ONE language. (Just joking (half-way
anyway); I say that because, Slav(ic)ist though I am, I can't say I know
exactly what form the Bosnians use (like good art, I know it when I see it),
though I imagine the Muslim Bosnians and the Orthodox Bosnians and the
Croat(ian) Bosnians MAY use different orthographic forms ... JUST to be
different.)
Slovene: Nemčija
Macedonian: Германиjа
and Bulgarian: Германия
(I am unaware of ever having run across an Old Bulgarian/Old Church
Slav(on)ic reference to Germany; a quick search (though not for all possible
spelling variations) of my computerized OB/OCS texts .. maybe 15 or so of
the "major" ones -- supports this.)

So, in Slavdom at least, Russian (and Bulgarian + Macedonian) is (are) the
odd man (men) out: Germans ARE mute (and, at least one of my Francophile
Australian friends here would add, should remain so! (sic?)). Interestingly
enough, it is the countries CLOSEST to Germandom that refer to the country
as Mute-dom, while those furthest away use the a name based on "German". One
might have expected the opposite if unfamiliarity with the language ("speaks
a strange language" = "mute") motivated the choice (think of all the Czechs
and Slovenes who speak German fluently!).

And, halfway around the world (more or less) Dakota/Lakhota refer to the
Germans as iyašiča (spellings vary), which derives from iya "to speak"  and
šiča "bad, ugly".

(Many other N American Native languages (from Dine Bizaad (Navajo) to
Blackfoot) refer to Germans as "pointy/metal hats" ... which always reminds
me of the (Japanese, but also I believe native German) Sign Language sign:
fist with index finger extended upward, placed at the center of the forhead,
a clear, iconic reference to WWI German helmets.) Tsalagi (Cherokee), of
which I have a smidge of blood -- though far too little to put me on the
tribal roles, is the only NAm language I am aware of which uses the German
form: Advji (v= schwa) = a- + dvji < Deutsch, and interestingly enough,
refering to Dutch as well as German. (The initial a- is a noun prefix
attached to human nouns -- optionally for some singulars, though
obligatorily, I believe, in the plural.)

Mike Morgan

KCUFS

P.S.
Oh, and R/R adds that:

> So Russian makes a difference between the ethnicity/language and the
> country: adjectival "German": немецкий _nemeckij_ (ethnic/linguistic) vs
> германский _germanskij_ (pertaining to the country).  I've always
> preferred
> this from a diversity point of view.

Германский also refers, linguistically, to German-ic rather than merely
German. Thus, from the Russian point of view, I speak a германский language
(English), though not a немецкий one (unless יידש counts, and to Russians it
DOESN'T). (One might add that, while I haven't met a Germanic language I
didn't like, German leaves me -- appologies to any speakers out there -- a
bit cold. Which is why the above is, a may forever remain, true.)

MWM

P.P.S.

And, while we are on the topic of names, I always find it interesting (laugh
inside?) when I write my nationality on the myriad of bureaucratic forms
required here in Japan: 米国 /beikoku/, literally "rice country" -- ironic
considering import duties levied against foreign rice that are perhaps 10
times higher than any other import duties and make rice from "rice country"
here scarcer than hen's teeth (and my beloved indica rice at least 10-times
more expensive here than it would be in Pittsburgh, PA ... though the latter
is undoubtably MUCH further away from the source). I am always tempted to
use the form used in all (?) the other conutries using "kanji": 美国 Mandarin
/měi guó/, Korean /mi-kuk/, and Việtnamese 美 /Mỹ/ "beautiful country".
And, it IS a beautiful country, at least physically, if not always
spiritually. ... Oh, and to make "mute" Germans feel better, the Chinese
charatcer used phonetically in the name of your country, actually means
"virtuous, etc". Again, an ideal we don't always live up to.

P.P.P.S.

And congrats to Bavaria on the new Pope!

----------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.16 (03) [E]


The construction Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de> refers to in Polish is
the common colloquial form in Russian as well, complete with the German
штука 'item'. So, where the literary standard would recommend "5 яблок"
/p'at' jablok/ "five apples", colloquially we often find "5 штук яблок"
"five items of apples". A quick Google search of the internet for "X штук
яблок" (where X = a number > 4, for grammatical reasons) turned up 50 hits
(mostly recipes ... apple pie?).

And an equally quick Google search for "X sztuk jabłek" (the equivalent
Polish form) gave 7 hits. (Though I can't say anything about the
geographic/dialect distribution of the sztuk construction within Polish and
within Poland. I DO remember a friend who spent a while in Kraków (NOT in
the West) using the construction; he was, however, a non-native speaker, ...
and he was exposed to Warszawian Polish in grad school and also at least
passively as a child (his father was an emigre), and I have no idea what
part of Poland THAT Polish came from. Plus, he hung out a lot with a couple
of us Russian speakers in grad school.

Mike Morgan
KCUFS

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 15:33:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:33:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.083309.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]


Just took a gander at some of the Wren stories. Great!

But one (three?) clarification(s) to Sandy's BSL transcription.

Sandy writes:
"This is a translation of the story in British Sign Language using the
international Sign Writing system".

No, this transcription uses SignWriting (ONE word, and it probably should
have the trademark symbol after it), which is not "_the_ international Sign
Writing system" (emphasis added) but "_A_ Sign writing system" (originating,
incidentally, in dance notation), which granted IS used internationally ...
but so are several others. (Hamnosys, from Hamburg, is perhaps the most
popular here in Japan, but personally I find both less than satisfactory
(both aesthetically and linguistically) ... and I use my own very
idiosyncratic and un-international Sign writing system.)

And both have home pages if any of Lowlanders are interested in making heads
or tails of Sandy's (wonderful!) rendition (I'll have to admit that, like
readers who have to mouth the words as they read, my hands and fingers were
twitching as I read the text!).

For SignWriting, the site is:
http://signwriting.org/
For Hamnosys, the site is:
http://www.sign-lang.uni-hamburg.de/Projekte/HamNoSys/

And there probably should be a note on how to read the columns: probably
everyone assumes top to bottom, but living where I do, I am always tempted
to read vertical columns of text starting on the upper right, whereas most
"westerners" would start on the upper left.

Mike Morgan

P.S.

I'm posting a lot today because I'm trying to put off grading a rather large
pile of papers I really should hand back to my students tomorrow.

Plus I'm feeling a bit guilty for not having made MY contribution to the
anniversary pages. I'm considering an OB/OCS translation (of which I guess
I'm about as native a speaker as the next guy :-)) and JSL ... though for
the latter, rather than a transcription, I would prefer (for accessibility
reasons: learning to read a transcription system takes a LOT of commitment!)
making an mpeg contribution (in the form of a series of files, each
representing a "paragraph" of text. A single file would be too large for my
email program to handle sending). Would an mpeg file be acceptable?

MWM

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Thanks for pointing that out, Mike.  I'm currently at the clean-up stage.
It's quite likely that there are errors and omissions, and, being really
busy, I don't always catch those by myself.  So any help is appreciated (as
are new submissions).  Anyone can point them out to me by sending a note to
my private account.

It was I who wrote the intro to our Sandy's translation, not Sandy.  I will
make the change as soon as I can get around to it.

I look forward to receiving your штуки, Mike.

And talking about omissions, apologies to our Gary (Taylor) for his personal
intro having appeared late (under "People").  It was not the only штука that
had fallen through the cracks in the wild pre-unveiling scramble, and
omission ought not be equated with lack of appreciation.  As I mentioned
before, the preparations coincided with Mathieu, Henry and myself having
extraordinary things going on and being extraordinarily busy off the List.
So I appreciate everyone's forebearance -- which is not to say you should
halt your writing and recording projects.  Please keep them going and
coming!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: For those who joined us this week let me add that we are talking about
our 10th anniversary web presentation:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 20:10:04 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:10:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.131004.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (01) [E]

Screw around can be used that way too. I also notice that those Thingy
thingamabob things are mainly used by women here in western America. Men
tend to use it much less. They will say thing.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 20:29:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:29:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.132932.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (02) [A/E]

Hallo julle!

En hier in Suid Afrika is Duitsers vir baie jare deur veral die Kaapse
gemeenskappe as "Duisters" bekend gestaan. Die taalverskynsel is natuurlik
bekend as taalverspringing.
'n Witmens was 'n "Duusman" genoem.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

And Slovak, (oh, let's NOT forget Slovak) is Nemecko ... without
the háček over the first "e". Also note that the Polish is a bit of an
oddball-out: it is a plural; literalyl: "The Germans"; all the others are
singulars.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Elsie,

Is there a connection, or is it a coincidence that in Low Saxon _doyster_
(<Dööster> ~ <Däuster> ~ <Deuster> ['d9Ist3`] ~ ['dOIst3`]) is one of
several taboo replacements for _duyvel_ (<Düvel> ~ <Dübel> ['dy:v=l] ~
['dy:b=l]) 'devil'.

Afrikaans _duister_ 'dark' directly corresponds to Low Saxon _duyster_
(<düüster> ['dy:st3`]) 'dark'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 20:45:20 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:45:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (06) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.134520.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]


Mihangel ap Morgan wrote:
"I'm posting a lot today because I'm trying to put off grading a rather
large pile of papers I really should hand back to my students tomorrow. Plus
I'm feeling a bit guilty for not having made MY contribution to the
anniversary pages."

That makes two of us, Mike! Apologies to all concerned. All my "busy-nesses"
have come at once.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary/Memories 2005.04.21 [E/Go.]

Leeve Leyglanners,

Anniversaries are or should be times for memories. Ik zul graag welke
bijzonders lustige of prettige herinnerongen uit de tienjaarse looptid van
de Lowlands-L websijt kunnen lezen. Is er toch exemplaren?

--Sorry for the fractured Nederlands/Vlaams. I promise to do better next
time.

We have other auspicious memories now surrounding us:
"Ihr naht Euch wieder, schwankende Gespenster..."
Sixty years have elapsed since WWII, and ninety years since the Armenian
genocide. Lessons for us? As carriers of a linguistic and cultural tradition
that contains both majorities and minorities, we bear a double duty of
memory.

In that context, I had previously mentioned that during a visit to the
Crimea, I had found several
vestiges of  Gothic place names. They are not Siebenbuergen Sachsen, Czarina
Katherine's Don River Germans, nor Mennonite names. They are attested by
many comparable Gothic place names in Montenegro, Istria, Macedonia,
Bulgaria, Romania, and Turkey (near the Bulgarian border).
Here are our findings thus far:

Sitankam  (Gothic Stainhamma, "stony place");
Mangup-Kale (Gothic Manguth-Baurg, "Manguth's Fort");
Bork-Kol-burun ("Baurg-Kol-Brunne");
Isil-Charna ("Asilu-qairnus", Goth. for "donkey-mill");
Rindjil ("Rinndzil", Goth. "low ridge, hill");\
Gun-charna (Goth. "Kuni-Qairnus", or "tribal mills");
Kavarna (Slav. version of goth. "qairnus", mill);
Litilburgaz (Goth. "Leitil-baurgs", "little fort");
Vargun (Goth. "fairgun", or "Berg": "mountain").

At Bork-Kol-Burun, we actually found a small, cold spring trickling from a
rock cliff near the fortress ruins. Many archaeological finds in most of the
foregoing places attest the age and cultural identity of Gothic settlements.

Just thought I would share with Lowlanders the importance and the poignancy
of memory.

Grueten,

Arthur

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]

Dear all,

Ron, Mathieu and Henry, may I on behalf of us all, give you guys
a very big thank-you for the hard work that went into the anniversary
pages. We appreciate it very much.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

 and omission ought not be equated with lack of appreciation.  As I
mentioned
before, the preparations coincided with Mathieu, Henry and myself having
extraordinary things going on and being extraordinarily busy off the List.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Thank you, Críostóir, Arthur and Elsie.

Folks, if you submit persional introductions, you might want to consider
writing a version in your native or favorite language as well if it's not
English.  (I know I'm no one to talk. My intro is so long, and now I don't
have time to translate it ...)

Elsie, thanks for thanks.  It's sweet of you to have taken the initiative.
We share the laurel wreath with everyone who has collaborated, and you are
one of them.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: For the person who joined just us (Bem vinda do Rio de Janeiro a
Lowlands-L!), let me add that we are talking about our 10th anniversary web
presentation:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 20:46:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:46:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (06) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.134632.0700.>

Oops! This just went out under a wrong header ... PFH
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]

Mihangel ap Morgan wrote:
"I'm posting a lot today because I'm trying to put off grading a rather
large pile of papers I really should hand back to my students tomorrow. Plus
I'm feeling a bit guilty for not having made MY contribution to the
anniversary pages."

That makes two of us, Mike! Apologies to all concerned. All my "busy-nesses"
have come at once.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary/Memories 2005.04.21 [E/Go.]

Leeve Leyglanners,

Anniversaries are or should be times for memories. Ik zul graag welke
bijzonders lustige of prettige herinnerongen uit de tienjaarse looptid van
de Lowlands-L websijt kunnen lezen. Is er toch exemplaren?

--Sorry for the fractured Nederlands/Vlaams. I promise to do better next
time.

We have other auspicious memories now surrounding us:
"Ihr naht Euch wieder, schwankende Gespenster..."
Sixty years have elapsed since WWII, and ninety years since the Armenian
genocide. Lessons for us? As carriers of a linguistic and cultural tradition
that contains both majorities and minorities, we bear a double duty of
memory.

In that context, I had previously mentioned that during a visit to the
Crimea, I had found several
vestiges of  Gothic place names. They are not Siebenbuergen Sachsen, Czarina
Katherine's Don River Germans, nor Mennonite names. They are attested by
many comparable Gothic place names in Montenegro, Istria, Macedonia,
Bulgaria, Romania, and Turkey (near the Bulgarian border).
Here are our findings thus far:

Sitankam  (Gothic Stainhamma, "stony place");
Mangup-Kale (Gothic Manguth-Baurg, "Manguth's Fort");
Bork-Kol-burun ("Baurg-Kol-Brunne");
Isil-Charna ("Asilu-qairnus", Goth. for "donkey-mill");
Rindjil ("Rinndzil", Goth. "low ridge, hill");\
Gun-charna (Goth. "Kuni-Qairnus", or "tribal mills");
Kavarna (Slav. version of goth. "qairnus", mill);
Litilburgaz (Goth. "Leitil-baurgs", "little fort");
Vargun (Goth. "fairgun", or "Berg": "mountain").

At Bork-Kol-Burun, we actually found a small, cold spring trickling from a
rock cliff near the fortress ruins. Many archaeological finds in most of the
foregoing places attest the age and cultural identity of Gothic settlements.

Just thought I would share with Lowlanders the importance and the poignancy
of memory.

Grueten,

Arthur

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]

Dear all,

Ron, Mathieu and Henry, may I on behalf of us all, give you guys
a very big thank-you for the hard work that went into the anniversary
pages. We appreciate it very much.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

 and omission ought not be equated with lack of appreciation.  As I
mentioned
before, the preparations coincided with Mathieu, Henry and myself having
extraordinary things going on and being extraordinarily busy off the List.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Thank you, Críostóir, Arthur and Elsie.

Folks, if you submit persional introductions, you might want to consider
writing a version in your native or favorite language as well if it's not
English.  (I know I'm no one to talk. My intro is so long, and now I don't
have time to translate it ...)

Elsie, thanks for thanks.  It's sweet of you to have taken the initiative.
We share the laurel wreath with everyone who has collaborated, and you are
one of them.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: For the person who joined just us (Bem vinda do Rio de Janeiro a
Lowlands-L!), let me add that we are talking about our 10th anniversary web
presentation:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 21:30:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:30:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.143021.0700.>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (06) [D/E]

Ron wrote: "For the person who joined just us..."

I think Ron got a little to quick with his fingers, otherwise I have a
question:  Who else would someone join?  :-)

Sorry to take a little jab at you, but I couldn't resist.

Mark Brooks

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

'Kay, Teach.  I admit the flying fingers thingmy is at fault, as you
suspected.

So, do you want to join our Jonny on the Be-Very-Afraid List?  If so, it can
be arranged.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 23:15:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:15:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.161542.0700.>

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Mark wrote

"I think Ron got a little to quick with his fingers"

what does 'to quick' mean, and a little what - just what exactly is he doing
with his fingers???? ;)

Gary

http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Taa fë duing the job foo mi, Gary, mey'.

And to Mark I say "So there!"

As for the fingers, I won't tell.  ;-)

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 04:36:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:36:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2005.04.22 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.213642.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Holidays

To our Muslim members, although at the end of the day (sorry), greetings and
best wishes on the Birthday of the Prophet (النب�  مول� د).

To our Jewish members, although a few days early to allow for travels, best
wishes for Passover (פּסח)!

And to our Bahá’í members, happy Ridvan!

May all of you celebrate in pleasant company!

On behalf of your friends at Lowlands-L,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 14:23:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:23:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.072340.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: Games

I was surprised to be informed on a TV programme last night that golf
originated in Holland. Us Scots, of course, claim to have invented this
along with everything else.
On reflection I can't help wondering if the game did originate
somewhere in Flemish territory, anybody know ?
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 14:43:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:43:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.22 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.074331.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (04) [E]

On 22/04/2005, at 6:10 AM, Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu> wrote:

> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (01) [E]
>
> Screw around can be used that way too. I also notice that those Thingy
> thingamabob things are mainly used by women here in western America.

Just realised that Australians do have one of those silly words in
regular use.
I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked "Have you seen
WOTSIZNAME ?".
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Well, Tom, good to know you don't have to go totally without in Australia.
;-)

And not to forget the ever-so-lovely permutation "whotsisface"!  I bet you
like this one even better.

Have a good weekend, ... whozzisface ... Tom!

Uh ... whozzisface ...
Reinhard/Ron

"It's the same as a whatchamacallit or a thingumabob or a doomaflitchy or a
how-you-call-it or a doodad or a hootis or a what's-it or a gizmo or a
gadget or a widget or a doohicky."
William Safire, NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE , NEW YORK
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2005/01/09/2003218669

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 14:56:25 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:56:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.22 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.075625.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (08) [E]

Gary wrote: "what does 'to quick' mean"

Well, uh, you know like "the quick and the dead"...?  I guess that just
proves the old saying that "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw
stones."  But, hey, stone throwing is just so much fun!

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 15:09:50 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:09:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (04) [A/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.080950.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Etymology [A]

Haai julle,

Nee, Ron, ek glo nie daar is 'n verband tussen Duusman en die Laagsaksiese
"_doyster_(<D??ster> ~ <D?uster> ~ <Deuster> ... taboo replacements
for _duyvel_ (<D?vel> ~ <D?bel> ['dy:v=l] ['dy:b=l]) 'devil'."

Dit is waarskynlik (hopelik!) slegs die produk van klankverspringing
(metathesis)
soos in: ros->horse;
weps-> wesp;
fluweel->ferweel;
duitser->duister->duisman->duusman

Maar hoe sal ons ooit weet? Wittes is in Zoeloe bekend as 'amalungu' wat
'towenaars' beteken.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

[Is there a connection, or is it a coincidence that in Low Saxon _doyster_
(<D??ster> ~ <D?uster> ~ <Deuster> ['d9Ist3`] ~ ['dOIst3`]) is one of
several taboo replacements for _duyvel_ (<D?vel> ~ <D?bel> ['dy:v=l] ~
['dy:b=l]) 'devil'.]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 20:01:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:01:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.130119.0700.>

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From: Clarkedavid8 at aol.com <Clarkedavid8 at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

It is seen in Dutch and Flemish paintings, but it used to be found all over
Europe, like the bagpipes. Neither are specifically Scottish or specifically
Flemish, as far as I am aware.

david clarke

---------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

Tom, I have heard somewhere that they have paintings of a game like golf in
China in the thirteenth century Anno Domini.

----------

From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]]

> From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
> Subject: Games

Hi Tom,

>On reflection I can't help wondering if the game did originate
>somewhere in Flemish territory, anybody know ?

There's a sport that shows some ressemblance to golf which is called
'klootschieten'. The goal is to reach the target in the least possible
turns. Contrary to golf the ball (kloot) is trown, but the target is often a
few 100 meters from the starting point. It is played along the roads, and
players make a tour like on a golf course. I've seen a game somewhere in the
Netherlands (can't remember where) but I guess it was also played in
Flanders.

Groeten,

Jo Thys

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Games

While it may be true that golf was introduced to Scotland by the "Flemish,"
I feel it's impossible to tell where most games began, and I take all such
proclamations with a grain of salt.

Many games are found all over Eurasia and often coincide with those in
Africa and the Americas.  Where there is no strong possibility of spread
(such as in the case of polo, which existed a long time ago from Western
Europe to Japan and is believed to have originated in Persia or Central
Asia), similarly field hocky (with variants from Irish iománaíocht /hurling
and Scottish camanachd /shinty to East Asian variants -- we should just
assume that similar games sprang up independently from each other.  After
all, ball games are found all over the globe, and coming up with beating a
ball with a stick or a crook toward a goal or into a hole, or kicking,
throwing or beating it isn't exactly rocket science, is it?

Above, Jo mentions _klootschieten_ (a word that sounds really nasty to Low
Saxon ears, by the way -- like ... well, _clot scítan_, to say it in Old
English for the sake of civility). If I'm not mistaken, variants of it are
found throughout Western and Eastern Friesland (_Bosseln_), and it may
belong to a Frisian substrate in Hollandish cultures.  However, there is a
very similar game in Ireland, especially in Corcach/Cork and
Ard-Macha/Armagh: "road ball," and the supposedly ancient Celtic _ Poc Fada_
competitions is not far from it either.  Is there a connection, or are they
independent inventions?  Might a similar game have been taken from the
European continent to Britain and Ireland?

Wondering ...

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 21:28:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:28:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.142817.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.22 (03) [E]

Re: to quick and the quick and the dead as discussed by Mark and Gary
Is'nt the expression " life quickened " when a woman feels a baby moving
for the first time? I had never heard of to quick as a verb, but "quick"
as adjective or an adverb seems to be related to Dutch "kwiek" or German
"keck". They both mean "energetic or with alacrity" Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Jacqueline, Lowlanders!

In Low Saxon we also have the verb _kwikken_ (<quicken>, root /kwik-/) 'to
refresh,' 'to revive' (like German _erquicken_).

In the 19th-century Romantic age of Low Saxon revival, Klaus Groth
(http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/) came up with the concept (though
probably not the actual word) of _kwikborn_ (<Quickborn>), literally
"refreshing/reviving source/fountain," much like the "fountain of youth," as
a metaphor for the language campaign.  It ended up being the title of a
periodical which survives till this day.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 21:31:28 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:31:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.22 (07)  [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.143128.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (01) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Other than English, that is, which seems capable of using
practically any noun as a verb: "Yesterday I was going downtown to
whatchamacallit", etc.
<

My mother is a past-master at saying " Heh Thingy, you know that
whatdoyermacallit? Well it's thingymebobbed next to the howsyerfather  -
you know the one by the wotsit.!!!!!!!

Perfekly clear !

Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 21:33:05 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:33:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.22 (08)  [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.143305.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (06) [D/E]

Hoi Arthur. Your Dutch is not so bad, it's understandable. But the right
translation would be:

ik zou (zal) graag enige/enkele/een paar bijzonder grappige/leuke of
prettige herinneringen uit/van het tienjarig bestaan/de tienjarige
periode/looptijd van de Lowlands-L website willen lezen. Zijn er nog
voorbeelden(?)?

Btw: there is no difference between Dutch and Flemish, these are just two
names for the same language, the first in the Netherland, Suriname etc,
the latter in Dutch-speaking Belgium.

Groetjes, Ingmar

>From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Anniversary/Memories 2005.04.21 [E/Go.]
>
>Leeve Leyglanners,
>
>Anniversaries are or should be times for memories. Ik zul graag welke
>bijzonders lustige of prettige herinnerongen uit de tienjaarse looptid van
>de Lowlands-L websijt kunnen lezen. Is er toch exemplaren?
>
>--Sorry for the fractured Nederlands/Vlaams. I promise to do better next
>time.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 22:10:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:10:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.151009.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (05) [E]

Van Kolf tot Golf

I found this webpage that discusses golf and something called Kolf.

http://www.cultuurwijzer.nl/nwc.rijksmuseumamsterdam/cultuurwijs.nl/i000807.
html
<http://www.cultuurwijzer.nl/nwc.rijksmuseumamsterdam/cultuurwijs.nl/i000807
.html>

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

R/R wrote:

> Above, Jo mentions _klootschieten_ (a word that sounds really nasty to Low
> Saxon ears, by the way -- like ... well, _clot scítan_, to say it in Old
> English for the sake of civility).

I assure you, it has the same nasty connotation in modern
Dutch as well, which I think is one of the reasons the game
never really caught on ...  A less objectionable variant of
'kloot' is 'kluit', which simply is a clump of earth.

But the original subject was the game of golf, in particular
its origin.  In 17th century Netherlands there was a popular
pastime named 'kolf'.  More about 'kolf' (en 'klootschieten')
can be found at:

http://www.cultuurwijzer.nl/nwc.rijksmuseumamsterdam/cultuurwijs.nl/i000807.html

Gustaaf

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (05) [E]


Ron wrote:
"...we should just assume that similar games sprang up independently from
each other. After
all, ball games are found all over the globe, and coming up with beating a
ball with a stick or a crook toward a goal or into a hole, or kicking,
throwing or beating it isn't exactly rocket science, is it?"

I completely agree. I found myself kicking an old arm-length stick idly
about a field the other day, but it doesn't mean I have fused hurling and
football. It just means I was kicking an old arm-length stick idly about a
field while my mind was elsewhere. (Highly recommended for stress relief,
however.)

If you hand a group of toddlers from various cultures a ball they will soon
have made up a game, often resembling a mixture of soccer, football,
basketball and catch, thereby demonstrating the shared, basically human
origin of most - if not all - ball games.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

I always thought everything was invented by Ivan Ivanovich Somebody-or-Other

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]]

> There's a sport that shows some ressemblance to golf which is called
> 'klootschieten'. The goal is to reach the target in the least possible
> turns. Contrary to golf the ball (kloot) is trown, but the target is often
> a
> few 100 meters from the starting point. It is played along the roads, and
> players make a tour like on a golf course. I've seen a game somewhere in
> the
> Netherlands (can't remember where) but I guess it was also played in
> Flanders.
>
> Groeten,
>
> Jo Thys

Reuben Epp replies:
reuben at silk.net

I was first introduced to 'Klootsheeten' many years ago by Hein Diers,
the then well-known author of Low Saxon in the dialect of Oldenburg.
I replied to him, pronouncing the name of the game as 'Klootschieten.'
Thereupon, he bounced from his chair and emphasized, 'Klootscheeten'
not 'Klootschieten.' Recognizing the difference between 'scheeten' and
'schieten,' I now do not make that mistake.

Cheers!

Reuben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Games

Paul (above):

> I always thought everything was invented by Ivan Ivanovich
> Somebody-or-Other

Don't you mean Baron Untel Tartempion de Château Commonsappelle de
Trucmuche?

Reuben, the _kloot_ part doesn't help either, no matter which way you turn
it.  It all sounds suspiciously like _kloyten-schyten_ ~ _kluyten-schyten_
(<Klötenschieten> ~ <Klütenschieten>), *_Kluteschiete_ in Plautdietsch, I
suppose.

On this lovely note,
Have a nice weekend!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 22:42:56 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:42:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.154256.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (06) [E]

To Ron re "Kwikken". Dat was een verkwikkend (refreshing) argument.
Jacqueline

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.22 (07) [E]

Heather wrote: "next to the howsyerfather..."

So, who is that next to YOUR howsyerfather?  I had the need to look that one
up a while back.  I was reading about some advertisement in the British
media with one of those supermodels, uh, "modeling" some panties (as we call
them here in America) that caused an uproar because she had her hand under
the waistband near her how's-your-father.  Well, I was intrigued about what
that might be.  I googled it and WELL...

Mark Brooks

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Mark,

Under normal circumstances I would prudently and prudishly counter, "Well,
we do want to leave *some* things to the imagination."  However, seeing that
you have -- albeit somewhat unceremoniously -- touched upon an etymological
matter of great import, I urge you to join me in deferring to the ever so
gifted Michael Horatio Kelly (a.k.a. "O Wise One") who is an expert on this
very linguistic phenomenon.  You would do well perusing his treatise on this
very subject:
http://www.michaelkelly.fsnet.co.uk/qfather.htm

On the other hand, you might prefer to subscribe to a more mundane
hypothesis:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/20/messages/553.html

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 23 20:59:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:59:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.23.APR.2005.135938.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (10) [E]

I have a very peculiar way of saying "What the hell/f/..." I say, "What the
mother?" Is that just my extreme strangeness, or does anybody say anything
like that?

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (06) [E]

It was just a joke because that person forgot an o and the ly to say "too
quickly." Also, why do so many English speakers say things like "too quick?"

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (06) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Re: to quick and the quick and the dead<

OHG   quec =  modern English    live   the adjective not the verb

e.g   He shall come to judge the quick and the dead
 to cut yourself to the quick ( i.e. to the live & painful flesh)
  In Hodgson Burnett's The Secret Garden much was made about the Yorkshire
that  the boy Diccon spoke. The other two children learn it and one of
their favourite expressions is "feeling quick" i.e. feeling alive  and as
their activities outside and in the garden bring them back to health and
energy they constantly declaim "I feel quick as quick"
Quickthorn  is a fast setting hawthorn bush much used in hedges and known
locally as 'quickset'

quecan >> to quicken  i.e. to be alive or to become alive
 A  babe is said to have quickened when its firsat movements are detected
by the mother

The origins of 'quick' as we know it today are related cognitively to the
same meaning as 'Look lively' as used by the Navy.

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Heather!

Here's a bit more.

Old Saxon:
kwik: alive, lively, life (adj.)
kwikōn (kwikôn): 'to live, 'to be alive'
ākwikōn (âkwikôn): 'to bring to life', 'to revive'
kwikhêd: 'liveliness', 'state of being alive'

Old Low Franconian:
kwik: alive, lively, life (adj.)

Old Frisian:
kwik: alive, lively, life (adj.)

Old German:
kwek (~ kwik): alive, lively, life (adj.)
(ir)kwekken: to bring to life
irkwekkēn (irkwekkên): to revive (trans.)
kwekkī (kwekkî): liveliness, state of being alive
kweklīhhī (kweklîhhî): life (being(s)), liveliness, state of being alive
kwekbrunno: fountain of life
kweksilabar: quicksilver, mercury

Old Norse:
kvikr: alive, life (adj.)
kvikna: to come to life
kveikja: to bring to life
kvękva (kväkva): to bring to life
kvikfē (kvikfê): (live) property, lifestock

Gothic:
qius: alive (Crimean)
gaqiunan: to come to life
anaqiujan: to bring to life
gaqiujan: to bring to life
qaiwjan: to bring to life

Indo-European (modified spelling):
*gwey- ~ gwey at - ~ gwyê- ~ gwiyô- ~ gwyô- ~ gwî-: to be alive

Note also preservation in (modern and pre-modern) Scots (incl. Shetlandic):


(1) quick, quik, kwikk, hwikk, whick, queek: life, alive, (alive with =)
infested



I’m seen the grund kwik wi’ hondiklokks. (... winged beetles)

quickhorn ~ quick horn: horn taken from a living animal

(2) quick, quik, kwikk, hwikk, whick, queek: > not stagnant, bubbling,
rippling

quick-water: running water, current
quick-spring
quick-sand
quick-fresh: spring in mossy ground
I stooped doon till the quick-water was rinnin’ ower my heid, an’ I drew oot
fish an’ cast an’ a’.

(3) quick, quik, kwikk, hwikk, whick, queek: living creature, esp. insect,
bug, etc.

Ointments for all sorts of wounds, &c. killing quicks or maggots

(http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 23 23:35:39 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:35:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.23 (02) [E/M.English/Gothic]
Message-ID: <SAT.23.APR.2005.163539.0700.>

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From: "Arthur Jones" <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.22 (08) [E]

Hails Dalathlandarjes!

Ingmar just helped me immensely with my fractured
Nederlands, and I thank him for taking the time to
also cite a few synonyms and alternative phrases. This
encourages me to make further attempts to write
whatever --thingwy-- in one or another of the Lowlands
tongues. There is no really compelling reason why us
Sassenacks simply MUST use English, only vanity.

Having said that, we still don't have any neat
examples of funny, poignant or memorable exchanges
that stand out from the background of the past ten
years. I know from the last two-year period that I saw
a couple or so. How about it, chers membres de la
galerie des cacahuetes? Or, how about a few "petits
riens du Grand Maitre"?

Sincerely, of which Sin is more fun than the Serely
part, ;-)

Arthur

"Ik ni im waidedja"
        --- President Richard M. Nixon, 1974

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

O frodaba, unagands jah friaþwamilds draúhtins Arþur!

Jai gafraþjis jah waíla geleikaiþs þeins gawaúrdi ist, swinþs þeins taúhts,
andilaus þeins þiuþeins, o waírþaba witodafasteis!

Maye Youre moste humble seruant propone conseil wth Hure Mageste the Queene
of thessaid Indies-Nutes Galleryes Reaume, oure most Dere and Cheryshyd
Ladie and Mistresse seurly beynge famuler wth comptlesse iolyf and lustie
mony-whats, histories and eschaunges in thes Compaignys longe bygane tyme.

With thes proposicioun bedes Youre moste humble and obedyent seruant til
Yewe, my Lord of Gret Hynesse, Hise Worthyest Ladie Robyn, and Alle Worthy
Membres of Thes Venerabill Assemblay his veray honeste and cordiall
salutaciouns.

The vnderwrit
Ragnheart Hawne
(Reinhard/Ron)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 00:39:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:39:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.23.APR.2005.173922.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]

Leeve Leyglanners,

Here, in Los Angeles, pedestrians (foot-folk) are divided into two main
groups: The quick and the dead.
;-)
Arthur

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

I am rather surprised to find that the origin of the obsolete English word
"ron [1]" in the excellent online (subscription) version of the _Oxford
English Dictionary_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/) is listed as obscure:

<quote>

"ron [1]"

[Of obscure origin.
  The word being app. southern, it is uncertain whether the original form is
ron or rǫn:—*ran: the latter would have a parallel in Ir. rann verse, poem,
but any real connexion between the two is very doubtful. In Cursor M. 219
the form ron prob. stands for roun, rūn, but riot ron (riming with don done)
in line 26938 may belong here.]
    A short poem or song, esp. a love-song.

a1225 Leg. Kath. 108 Nalde ha nane ronnes ne nane luue runes leornin ne
lustnen. c1275 Luue Ron 2 in O.E. Misc. 93 A mayde Cristes me bit yorne, þat
ich hire wurche a luue ron [rimes -mon, con]. 1327 in Rel. Antiquæ I. 119
Herkne to my ron As ich ou telle con. c1370 Clene Maydenhod (Vernon MS.) 2
Of a trewe loue clene and derne Ichaue I-write þe A Ron [rimes -mon, con,
vppon]

</quote>

Personally I have no doubt in my mind that this word is a biblically derived
Hebrew one:

רׄן ~ רָן
RN (rŏn = _ron_ with a short "o", or _rân_)

The original meaning of this noun appears to be '(ringing) cry', 'shout',
'cry of joy', 'cheer', extended to approximately 'tune', 'song', 'air',
'(sung) poem', 'ode'.

Psalms 37:

ז:
אַתָּה, סֵתֶר לִי  --  מִצַּר תִּצְּרֵ� ִי
 רָ� ֵּי פַלֵּט; תְּסוֹבְבֵ� ִי סֶלָה

z:
aTTâ seTär liy – miSSar TTiSS'reniy
RÂNney sallet; TT'sowv'veniy sälâh

7:
Thou art my hiding-place; Thou wilt preserve me from the adversary;
with SONGS of deliverance Thou wilt compass me about. Selah

This word is related to the following verb:

רָ� ַן _rânan_ 'to give ringing cries', 'to shout', 'to cheer', 'to exalt',
'to praise (loudly)',

Does anyone disagree with my assumption?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: This noun is also a Hebrew given name for males. It happens to be the
one given to me (in lieu of my German name) by my first Hebrew teacher in
Israel.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 20:27:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:27:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.132742.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (03) [E]

Ron [1] asked:
"Does anyone disagree with my assumption?"

Yes, or should i say I have some questions about it.
Hebrew origin of a Middle English word? I doubt that, although it is
theoretically possible and of course there are Hebrew derived words in
(Middle) English, through the Bible or otherwise.
But I think it has more to do with 'run', and means a song or a poem that
is running, because of its shortness. In Dutch we say that <iets loopt>
when it's going well, smoothly. Lopen = to walk/to run. And <een loopje>
is a short musical passage, like a <run> in English.

Irish <rann> seems to be more plausible, then.

Or, even more interesting, how about a connection to <rune>?
>>From <secret/obscure sign> to <secret message> to <(short) secret love
poem> to <ron>? That isn't any stranger than from the Hebrew meaning <cry>
to <short love poem/song>, neh?

So hopefully we can't say anymore that our Ron [1] is of obscure origin too

Ingmar

>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>
>"ron [1]"
>
>[Of obscure origin.
>  The word being app. southern, it is uncertain whether the original form
is
>ron or rǫn:—*ran: the latter would have a parallel in Ir. rann verse,
poem,
>but any real connexion between the two is very doubtful. In Cursor M. 219
>the form ron prob. stands for roun, rūn, but riot ron (riming with don
done)
>in line 26938 may belong here.]
>    A short poem or song, esp. a love-song.
>
>Personally I have no doubt in my mind that this word is a biblically
derived
>Hebrew one:
>
>רׄן ~ רָן
>RN (rŏn = _ron_ with a short "o", or _rân_)
>
>The original meaning of this noun appears to be '(ringing) cry', 'shout',
>'cry of joy', 'cheer', extended to approximately 'tune', 'song', 'air',
>'(sung) poem', 'ode'.
>
>>This word is related to the following verb:
>
>רָ ַן _rânan_ 'to give ringing cries', 'to shout', 'to cheer', 'to exalt',
>'to praise (loudly)',
>
>Does anyone disagree with my assumption?

----------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]

Och more entomology than etymology Ron but this fascinates me.
I don't know if it still exists in Lowland Scots but my mother and her
friends would refer to large beetles, and I suspect cockroaches, as
'Big Kloakers'.

On 24/04/2005, at 6:59 AM,  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I’m seen the grund kwik wi’ hondiklokks. (... winged beetles)
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (03) [E]

Could those definitions have come from th wrend or a rendition?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ingmar,

I assumed it went without saying that I had in mind biblical influence, a
term borrowed by way of Old Testament scholarship.  However, I suppose I
ought to have assumed nothing.

Perhaps mine would not be more exotic a proposition than your "run" one, one
assuming French origin (*_rond_) or some such.  I understand that the
obsolete English term "ron" used to be restricted to scholarly, literary
spheres, which may make it a bit more likely to have been an esoteric term.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 20:29:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:29:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.24 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.132914.0700.>

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From: Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais <goidel.glas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]

Latha math, a Lowlanders;

Ben said:
>I have a very peculiar way of saying "What the hell/f/..." I say, "What the
>mother?" Is that just my extreme strangeness, or does anybody say anything
>like that?

A friend of mine - who has lived all over the place - also says that.
I don't know where she picked it up though! Most people around here
(Massachusetts) think it's weird, too.

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 20:31:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:31:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.24 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.133109.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: language politics

Read on the website of the LA Times,
Regards,
Roger

April 24, 2005

A Twist for an Ancient Tongue Trying to Survive

By John Daniszewski, Times Staff Writer

AN SPIDEAL, Ireland - Generations of English-speaking tourists who have used
this pretty village of thatched cottages as a jumping-off point for the
pleasures of the wild Connemara region have known it as Spiddal.

But a new government policy means that the settlement, which boasts
spectacular views of Galway Bay and the Aran Islands in the distance, will
be known only by its Gaelic name, An Spideal.

As of March 28, all English versions of place names were eliminated in the
Gaeltacht, the pockets of Ireland where a majority of people still speak
Gaelic. English no longer has official standing on signposts, legal
documents or government maps. (For now, until the sign-makers get cracking,
officials are just covering up the English names.)

It is the latest official gesture in support of the Irish tongue. But is it
too little, too late? In the midst of an economic boom that is both
encouraging and threatening Gaelic's popularity, many advocates for the
republic's "first official language" are worried.

"It is terrible how things are going," said Seamas O Cualain, an 82-year-old
enthusiast of the language of his forebears, which is almost always called
Irish on this island to distinguish it from the Scottish form of Gaelic.
"The language is dying in the Gaeltacht."

The lilting tongue, which arrived in Ireland with the Celts centuries before
Romans reached the British Isles, has an alluring sound, aspirated
consonants and a rich trove of poetry and folklore. Just a few words have
moved into English: "smithereens" and "leprechaun," for example. But
something of its musical syntax is captured by Irish English, as in the
phrase, " 'Tis himself that's coming now."

The change in the place names makes sense, advocates say. The English
versions, put down by government surveyors in the early 1800s, are mostly
nonsensical phonetic approximations of Gaelic words.

Spiddal, for instance, has no meaning in English or Irish. But in Irish, An
Spideal means "the hospital," a name that derives from the village's having
once been the site of a leper colony.

Another egregious example is a spit of land with the bowdlerized English
name of Muckanaghederdauhaulia. In Irish, it won't be much easier to spell:
Muiceanach idir Dha Shaile. But at least it will have a meaning: the point
between two tides.

Tourist maps, however, will continue to carry English place names in the
Gaeltacht - which includes parts of seven counties - alongside the Irish.

The changes are a way to encourage Gaeltacht residents who may be wavering
to hang on to their language by showing it its due respect, said Deaglan O
Briain of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in
Dublin. "Official Ireland [is] saying to people in the Gaeltacht areas that
we do recognize that you are there, and your language exists."

O Cualain, meticulously dressed, with glassine skin, blue eyes and a shock
of white hair, met a reporter in his neat cottage, the fireplace aglow in
his cozy study cum dining room. He is, he said, part of a generation of
native speakers trained as teachers in Irish-only preparatory colleges.

The goal was for these graduates to spread the language across the island,
bringing the dying tongue back to life in all of the 26 counties that
secured de facto independence from Britain in 1922. The idea was promulgated
by W.T. Cosgrave, leader of the Irish Free State, the nation's first
incarnation as a republic.

More than 80 years later, a debate rages about the efficacy of those
efforts, prompted in part by the Irish-language commissioner's recent
criticism of the teaching of the language in public schools.

Students must study Irish for 13 years, from kindergarten through high
school, receiving more than 1,500 hours of instruction in all. Yet many
still graduate without fluency, says Commissioner Sean O Cuirreain.

He is a government official who acts as an ombudsman for Irish-speaking
citizens and monitors government departments' implementation of
Irish-language policy from his office in An Spideal. O Cuirreain believes
that the country could do much better and that teaching methods should be
reviewed.

On the other hand, he sees positive signs - such as a recent trend of
parents outside the Gaeltacht sending their children to all-Irish-speaking
schools.

Five percent of Irish children are in such classrooms, he said, while an
Irish-language TV station gets 100,000 viewers a day, and people listen to
pop music on a 24-hour Irish-language radio station.

In all, 1.57 million - or nearly 40% - of the nation's 4 million people say
they speak Irish, and 337,000 (counting schoolchildren) say they use it
daily, according to the latest census figures. In the Gaeltacht, 60,000
people employ it each day.

But at a restaurant in An Spideal called An t'Sean Ceibh (The Old Pier),
where a fresh sea breeze wafted through the sunlit bar as patrons sipped
pints and ate Irish stew, Soracha Ni Chonghaile admitted that she wasn't
always among those.

"It's dying," the 23-year-old waitress said of the language. "I would speak
it with my family and with the older customers who come in here, but I don't
speak it with my friends. It's not the norm."

O Cuirreain, however, believes that Irish, in contrast to the vast majority
of the 6,800 other languages in the world, is on course to survive at least
through the next century - thanks to continued government support and its
core of thousands of Irish men and women who still use the language daily in
their lives.

"We should not be complacent about that . but we should take a certain
degree of comfort that we have a fighting chance," he said in a telephone
interview.

Why all the effort to keep Irish alive when the world seems to be converging
on English? That tongue is not only the language of international business
and technology, but also Ireland's most commonly spoken since at least the
mid-19th century.

"The Irish language has been spoken for thousands of years," O Cuirreain
said. "It is the language of the hearts and minds of peoples for generations
in this country.. To lose that would be unthinkable, as far as I'm
concerned."

Because of the influx of non-Irish-speakers propelled by Ireland's economic
boom, however, the language is threatened even in the Gaeltacht, said
Nollaigh O Muraile, a professor of Irish studies at the National University
of Ireland in Galway.

"Two things are pressing on it: One is English culture through the media and
World Wide Web, and the other is the housing developments stretching out
right up into the Gaeltacht area," O Muraile said. "The language is being
diluted."

Children speak Irish in the classroom, but English is the language during
recess.

Partly offsetting the trend, however, is a vibrant community of people who
have taken up Irish on their own initiative.

Residents protective of their language in An Spideal have recently demanded
that a developer devote most of his 17-home project to people who can pass a
test in Irish and show they are dedicated to the language.

The national planning appeals board gave a mixed ruling Friday. It said it
was too late to impose the mandate on the development, which had already
received preliminary approval without any language rule.

But the board said such requirements could be made of developers in the
future, both in the An Spideal area and other parts of the Gaeltacht. The
rules could mandate that new housing developments maintain the same
proportion of Irish- and English-speaking residents as in the surrounding
areas.

The dispute over the 17 homes was complicated, with the developer asking
that the language requirement be lifted and some townspeople demanding an
even tougher restriction, O Cuirreain said.

"It's one of those things where you'd need half the Los Angeles Times to
explain it, on a good day," he said with a laugh.

But the key point, he added, is that planners had endorsed the principle.
"It's a step being taken to protect the linguistic integrity of those
areas," he said.

Retired teacher O Cualain said he was glad about the changes but discouraged
at young people's apparent lack of dedication to the language.

"When I went to school, we spoke nothing but Irish going and coming," he
said in a soft, sad brogue. "Even those who didn't know the language, if
they came here, they picked it up by listening. But nowadays, I very seldom
hear the young people speaking it."

Some commentators have questioned whether it is a losing battle to keep the
language alive through government policy.

Alan Ruddock, a columnist writing in the Sunday Times of London, took on O
Cuirreain last month, challenging the need to force-feed the language to
schoolchildren.

He said the Irish Republic was willing to pay only "expensive lip service" -
costly schooling, subsidized Irish-language radio and television and
"often-garbled" Irish at the start of major political speeches.

"But in no way are we serious about promoting Irish in every aspect of
national life. Nor should we be," he wrote. "Ireland is not bilingual. We
are an English-speaking country, have been from the moment we gained
independence and were for a century before.

"Nothing O Cuirreain does will change that, and neither will anything in the
Official Languages Act. If Irish is to survive, then it must be freed from
the albatross of compulsion."

O Muraile said he saw encouraging signs. Ireland's newfound prosperity, and
the pride rising with the "Celtic tiger" economy, is making it "almost a
trendy thing to speak Irish."

But in the Gaeltacht itself, it is diminishing as an everyday language.

"I don't know what the future holds, but perhaps we have to exist as a
second language," he said. "In a way, it has been a misfortune of Ireland to
come up against the most powerful language the world has ever seen."

(BEGIN TEXT OF INFOBOX)

Gaelic revival

The Gaeltacht, areas of Ireland where Gaelic is extensively
spoken, includes portions of seven counties.
English and Gaelic are vastly different languages. Here's how they look, for
example, in a comparison of the Lord's Prayer:
-
Ar nAthair ata ar neamh,
Our father, who art in heaven,
-
go naofar d'ainm;
hallowed be thy name;
-
go dtaga do riocht,
thy kingdom come,
-
go ndeantar do thoil ar an talamh
thy will be done on earth
-
mar a dheantar ar neamh.
as it is in heaven.
-
Ar n-aran laethuil tabhair duinn inniu,
Give us this day our daily bread,
-
agus maith duinn ar bhfiacha
and forgive us our trespasses
-
mar a mhaithimidne dar bhfeichiuna fein.
as we forgive those who trespass xxagainst us.
-
Agus na lig sinn i gcathu,
And lead us not into temptation,
-
ach saor sinn o olc. Amen.
but deliver us from evil. Amen.
*
Sources: http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com , http://www.iol.ie , ESRI.
Graphics reporting by Tom Reinken

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 20:32:34 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:32:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.24 (04) [E/French]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.133234.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Place names

From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
To: <lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 3:30 PM
Subject: Place names
> La Voix du Nord started today with a weekly etymological clarification of
> place namens in French Flanders.
> Below: the first article.

Here comes the second part,
Regards,
Roger

Actualite / Hazebrouck / Page 4 / Article 2
Edition du Dimanche 24 Avril 2005

De Buysscheure �  Godewaersvelde Les noms des communes de Flandre
intérieure (2)

Nous poursuivons notre découverte de l'origine des noms de communes de
Flandre intérieure, par ordre alphabétique. et toujours sans prétendre
pouvoir apporter une réponse sûre �  toutes les questions qui se posent!

Buysscheure. - Si la partie buys (bois, forêt) ne pose pas de problème, le
terme scheure ou schure peut, lui, être traduit de deux façons: grange ou
défrichement. Buysscheure est ainsi la grange du bois ou le bois défriché.

Caestre. - Un nom qui vient tout droit du latin castrum et qui rappelle l'
existence d'un camp militaire romain.

Cassel. - Encore une origine romaine, puisque Cassel vient du latin
castellum (château). Un site défensif était installé sur cette hauteur, d'où
partaient des voies romaines.

Le Doulieu. - On trouve trace, au XIIIesiècle, d'une chapelle appelée Dulcis
Locus Beatae Mariae, c'est-� -dire Doux Lieu de la bienheureuse Marie. Du
doux lieu au Doulieu, il n'y a qu'un pas.

Ebblinghem. - C'est probablement la demeure (hem) des descendants (ing) d'un
chef nommé Hubald ou Humbald.

Eecke. - Vient du flamand eek (chêne). Le village aurait ainsi été nommé en
souvenir de saint Wulmar, dont la paroisse porte le nom. Ce religieux aurait
vécu durant quelques jours �  cet endroit dans un chêne creux.

Estaires. - Un cas épineux! Pour certains, le nom de la commune dérive de
Eti Terra ou Aetti Terra, soit la terre du général romain Aetius. Pour d'
autres, il faut y voir une marque des mots celtiques ess (près), ter
(rivière) et re (deux), c'est-� -dire un endroit situé près de deux rivières,
en l'occurrence la Lys et la Lawe.
L'ancien nom de la commune (Stegers) a donné lieu �  d'autres hypothèses: il
viendrait du mot latin scala transformé localement en steig, ce qui
signifierait montée (peut-être de la Lys vers Cassel); il pourrait aussi
être issu de la germanisation du latin strata (route), Estaires étant situé
sur une voie romaine; ou, pourquoi pas, faire référence au mot celtique
steer ou sterr (rivière que l'on peut passer �  gué), ce qui équivaudrait �  l
'ancien nom latin d'Estaires, Minariacum (venant lui-même de minor aqua ,
eau de moindre profondeur). Toujours dans le domaine de l'eau, Stegers
pourrait venir du flamand steg, ou pont de bois au-dessus de l'eau.

Flêtre. - L�  aussi, l'étymologie du nom du village semble être liée �  l'eau.
Que l'on examine le latin (fletrinium ou fluctus) ou le flamand (vleteren ou
vliet), on a l�  des termes qui désignent un petit cours d'eau, connu sous le
nom de becque de Flêtre, près duquel se serait développé le village.

Godewaersvelde. - Il s'agit du champ (veld en flamand) dans lequel s'est
installé ou illustré un personnage du nom, selon différents auteurs, de
Gohard (le saint bien connu �  Arnèke), Godefried, Gaudefroit, Godewaert ou
Godoald.

J.-P.V.
(�  suivre)

Suite �  notre article de dimanche dernier, Jacques Messiant, qui a effectué
de nombreuses recherches sur le passé de la Flandre, nous a indiqué que le
nom de Bail-leul pourrait également être issu du mot bailliage, un terme qui
désignait au Moyen Âge la circonscription placée sous la responsabilité d'un
bailli nommé par le roi.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 21:23:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:23:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.24 (05) [D/E/S]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.142324.0700.>

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=======================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.23 (02) [E/M.English/Gothic]

Arthur wrote: "

Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> wrote: This encourages me to make
further attempts to write whatever --thingwy-- in one or another of the
Lowlands tongues.."
Ja, ek stem saam. Ek bin willig om te probeer. Ek begryp Afrikaans en 'n
bitje Nederlands, en ook Duits, maar die andere tale kenne ek niet. Wij
kannen meskien 'n nuwe "Lowlands Esperanto" (Saamhoop?)erfinden?
"There is no really compelling reason why us Sassenacks simply MUST use
English, only vanity..."

Niet noodsaaklik edelheid (???); meskien onwetenheid of skaamheid (???)

Paul

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: anniversary pages

The "help" gives:
"The sound files presented on this website are brought to you in the popular
mp3 format, which makes it possible to compress audio samples to an
acceptable file size. Even so, some older computers or computers with slow
internet access may need some time to download these files.
When opening a language page, you will immediately see if there’s a sound
file available for that language. (In some cases there are more than one.)
If so, you can either choose to listen to the sound file within the browser
(using the “Play” button on the sound bar), or you can download the mp3 file
directly onto your computer (using the “Download mp3” link)."

But on the page I wrote in Limburgish / Vliermaal I do not find any sound
file.
Is there a delay in set-up?
Was there a selection?
Or is it lost and do I have to resend it?

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]

Fit like, fella Laalaunners!

A hiv teen a keek at a puckle o the "Anivarsarie Introducshans", an hiv a
wee correcshan tae the Inglis varshan o Waki-san's Intro. A hiv niver haen
the plezhuir o meetin him, but A think he dinnae bide in "Chaba" (茶葉?!) -
fit A canna fin on onie o ma monie maps - but in "CHIBA" (千葉), fit is richt
nearhaun by the Disnae ... Na, nicht the Inver-Disnae o Matthew Fitt's _But
n Ben A Go-Go_, but Tokyo Disnae-Laun.

(The Japanese, German an Laa Saxon varshans aa hae Chiba".)

Mike Morgan
KCUFS

P.S. Sorry Sandy for slaughtering the language. (^u^)

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.23 (02) [E/M.English/Gothic]

Ron wrote:
> Maye Youre moste humble seruant propone conseil wth Hure Mageste the
Queene
> of thessaid Indies-Nutes Galleryes Reaume, oure most Dere and Cheryshyd
> Ladie and Mistresse seurly beynge famuler wth comptlesse iolyf and lustie
> mony-whats, histories and eschaunges in thes Compaignys longe bygane tyme.

Said Queene is in the process of moving, drowning in bulky boxes, countless
old paperbacks, and all the dust from behind the shelves. Actually, starting
tomorrow night, she will be completely offline for a week. Maybe others have
time to dig through the archive... as for one of the gems of the board, I
vote for the introduction of Middelsprake. I also very much enjoyed the
recent whatchermacallit thread, even though I had no time to participate.
Maybe some of the parts about holiday traditions might be nice examples,
too. And what about that thread regarding old Lowlandic children's games?

Gabriele Kahn
Queen of the Packing Peanuts

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Roger (above):

> Is there a delay in set-up?

Roger, yes, as mentioned, the sound file production is somewhat slow-going
and slowed down, due in part to our Henry having his hands more than full
and partly because it takes some time to get files converted, edited and
reduced in size.  I can't say for sure if Henry received yours (since he's
been having some problems getting list mailings on top of it).  I suggest
you and others that are concerned about their sound files contact him
directly (Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>, and, as temporary
assurance, also to Henry Pijffers <henry at fair.source.org>).

Mike (above):

> "Chaba" (茶葉?!) - fit A canna fin on onie o ma monie maps - but in "CHIBA"
> (千葉)

Yes, thanks.  It was a typo of a team member's (who did not have the
knowledge to be aware that this would come out possibly meaning "tea leaves"
rather than "thousand/countless leaves").  I have corrected it in the
meantime.

Gabriele (above)

> Queen of the Packing Peanuts

Ah, well, I guess this is sufficient grounds for temporarily releaving her
of her queenly duties and leaving her to her mundane _travail du grunge_,
sad though the prospect of deprivation may appear at first.  Congratulations
on the move!  Hopefully we'll have an even happier Queene of the Reaume in
the future.

Talking about Queenes, I have added a Middle English translation of the Wren
story to the anniversary collection.  I welcome suggestions, preferably sent
to my private addess (<sassisch at yahoo.com>), unless there are issues that
would be of interest to the entire List.

For those of you who joined or rejoined us recently -- Welcome (back)! -- I
will add that we are talking about an online presentation on the occasion of
our thenth anniversary.  Please check it out if you have not already done
so:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

Please also seriously consider contributing texts, pictures and sound files
to it (to be sent to me (<sassisch at yahoo.com>).  Personal introductions
would be very much appreciated, irrespective of when you joined. You may
write it them in any language you wish, though an English version would be
appreciated, and help with it will be available.  And, no, you need not be
an expert in anything, and you need not feel intimidated in any way either.
We are a very accepting and embracing bunch.  In your introductions you may
write anything (socially acceptable and legal) about yourself you wish.
Just take a look at the diversity of the ones already posted
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=members).  Of course,
this appeal applies to everyone, including those that have made certain
ouvertures or promises ...

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 25 07:04:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:04:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.04.24 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.000414.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: ANNIVERSARY 2005 04 24

From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Dear Lowlanders,

I realize that it is already past midnight for many of
you, and even a new afternoon for others. But I wanted
to get in brief word about minority language, and
culture, and family, and memory, before the sun set
today at my door.

Today, April 24, was the 90th anniversary of the
Armenian Genocide. In 1915, as part of a desperate
attempt at territorial consolidation, the failing
Ottoman Empire began its terrible work of expelling,
shooting, stabbing, starving, and slaughtering one and
one-half million Armenian men, women, and children. It
placed millions more in an impoverished diaspora.

To all Armenian Lowlanders, and I trust there are
several, I would say _ts'avakts'um em_.

The Armenian Holocaust was of special relevance to all
of us Lowlanders, because it touches us more deeply
than it affects many others. We are, after all,
concerned with the survival of languages that, to
differing degrees, are all under threat of extinction.

Also, many of us live in our own, self-inflicted,
diasporas. We can feel what Armenians call _garoda_,
or a deep, inexplicable yearning for homeland that is
like the flame of a pilot light; a low, almost
imperceptible burning in the psyche. The Welsh call
the same thing _hiraeth_. Question to Ron: Can these
two be etymologically related? Do we have a
Proto-Indo-European root for it?

One of the after-effects of genocide, or its attempt,
is that children and grand-children are cut off from
their roots by assimilation into new cultures and
languages. Few regain their mother tongue.

An Armenian told me yesterday, "I feel Armenian, but I
don't want to live near Ararat". Similarly, the
anguish was expressed in a song, about twelve years
ago, by the Young Dubliners: "It's a long, long way
from Claire to here."

Preserving languages necessitates making them live and
vibrate like guitar strings. It is never a simple
choice between the shackles of protectionism (like
taking all the fun out of Boarisch/Bavarian), or the
anarchy of globalization.

Our most powerful tool is memory: _hishoghut'yun_.
As we express our condolences to Hayastan, we should
also feel some satisfaction that all of you,
Lowlanders, are recording and remembering as we
travel.

Shnoragalut'yun.

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 25 07:44:33 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:44:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.004433.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Dag, Lowlanners, Ragnhart,

(English below)

na- Jii hannen mi jo 'n feinen Themen! Snackt Ji doch över 'schieten" un'
'scheeten', oon Innen!

Uns Vöröllern wüssen all, worüm se dat sülvig Woord nohmen hannen- een Doun,
wat dat uut dennen Achtersten or vöörn bi dat Scheetgeweer ruut keem! Is
jümmer Schiet.

De lütten 'Schietbüdels' van vandoog weet dat meist noch beeter: keen ne
recht mitsnacken kann, is 'n 'Schietoors', un keen mit Kluten no jem smieten
deit, kann ook woll "Klöötenschieter" heeten. Keen tau kloug is, heet
'Klougschieter', un dennen schöölt se woll wat 'schieten'.
'n 'Schietkeerl' is door denn meist ook jümmer mang.

Junge- wat 'n schiet Themen!

Man- un dissen 'grouden Schiet' schall ick ook noch översetten?

Ick schiet Jau wat!

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

PS: Al disse Wöör kanns't un' dörffst opp "Platt" bruuken; schall Dii woll
meist nümms föör Övel neem'n. Man- verseuk dat all me Leev ne opp
Hougdyytsch- kann's' 'n Bült Arger kriig'n!
Is dat ook föör anner "Neddersaksische" güllich, villicht ook föör Scots?
D.S.

***

Dear Lowlanders, Ronny,

he- within my short abscence You made some conversation on a very "stinking"
theme! Talking about 'shit' and 'shoot'.

Our ancients already knew why to use the same word for two slightly
different things- it really doesn't matter where the 'shit' is coming from:
either from any back of the human anatomy or from the mouth of a gun! It's
just real shit, still in our days!

Those little 'nappy-children" of today are supposed to know even better:
those being unable to get around in these facts are
'people-not-able-to-understand', 'silly', 'stupid', at any respect 'bad
characters'. And- those ones throwing bowls [of mud] after the little ones
are called 'dirt-flingers'.

People being too clever are supposed to 'shit' intelligence, and specially
that sort of human beings they like to cut dead, to avoid ("to snit",
perhaps??).

Have a look around Yourself- You'll always find anyone You despise, but You
don't hate.

Oh, man, what a f... theme!

And just me, poorest of all people as far as modern, readable English is
concerned, shall try to translate all this "bullshit"?

I fear I have to disguise You!

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

PS: All these above words and idioms you are allowed to use in our
LS-dialect-  no real-native will become angry at all. But- You should never
try the same in "High" German! Things then will not run the expected way,
no, not at all!
Is it the same in other LS-regions, perhaps in Scots, too?
T.S.

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]

Hi all,

Ben, the 'what the mother' is also used in Afrikaans as "Wat de moer!?"
where 'moer'
denotes mother/uterus/origin.

And Ron/Heather re. KWIK, the 'kwikstertjie' is our Bachstelze/wagtail. and
'verkwik' means to refresh in Afrikaans.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

[Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
I have a very peculiar way of saying "What the hell/f/..." I say, "What the
mother?" Is that just my extreme strangeness, or does anybody say anything
like that?]

[Old Saxon:kwik: alive, lively, life (adj.)]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Haai, Elsie!

> And Ron/Heather re. KWIK, the 'kwikstertjie' is our
> Bachstelze/wagtail. and 'verkwik' means to refresh in Afrikaans.

In some Low Saxon, too, you say _kwiksteyrt_ (<Quicksteert>) for 'wagtail'
(_Motacillidae_, by default usually _Motacilla alba_ 'white wagtail' in
Northern Europe).

In other dialects there are _wipsteyrt_ (<Wippsteert>) and _wüpsteyrt_
(<Wüppsteert>) in reference to the wagging or twitching tail of the bird.
You can also use these to refer to restless children or to anyone who can't
be still.

And yet another name (in the northwest, I believe) is _akker-mantje_
(<Ackermanntje> "(little) husbandman") and the specific variants _blau
akker-mantje_ (<Blauackermanntje> "blue (little) husbandman" _Motacilla
cinerea_?) and _geel akker-mantje_ (<Geelackermanntje> "yellow (little)
husbandman"_Motacilla flava_).

Nursery rhyme:

   Ackermanntje, wipp up Steert!
   Well hett di dat Wippen lehrt?

   Akker-mantje, wip up steyrt!
   Wel het dy dat wippen leyrd?

   Willie Wagtail, wag your tail!
   Who has taught you how to wag?

Marlou Lessing has a whole Low Saxon web page about the bird:
http://www.marless.de/natur/sunn04_04.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 25 07:50:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:50:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.25 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.005045.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.24 (05) [D/E/S]

Paul, there IS already Middelsprake, a <<Lowlands Esperanto>>, i.e. a
common germanic language!  I'll send you the file <<Concise Outlines of
Middelsprake>>

Ingmar

>From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
>Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.23 (02) [E/M.English/Gothic]

>Ja, ek stem saam. Ek bin willig om te probeer. Ek begryp Afrikaans en 'n
>bitje Nederlands, en ook Duits, maar die andere tale kenne ek niet. Wij
>kannen meskien 'n nuwe "Lowlands Esperanto" (Saamhoop?)erfinden?
>"There is no really compelling reason why us Sassenacks simply MUST use
>English, only vanity..."
>
>Niet noodsaaklik edelheid (???); meskien onwetenheid of skaamheid (???)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Well, our anniversary presentation is beginning to get noticed.  Someone who
just joined us (Welcome!) was nice enough to add the following to his
application:

"I have just listened to and read some of the variants of the story,
\"Wren\". This was very interesting. It is one thing to read a language, but
to hear it as well, well, that is interesting. Bravo to the guy who came up
with the idea."

I guess this kudos is meant for our Gary (Taylor).

Thanks for the comment!  Please note that more sound files will follow.

OK, folks, let's keep working on it!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 25 20:56:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:56:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.25 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.135623.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.24 (03) [E]


Dear Lowlanders

This article about Irish just sounds too similar of what I have seen and
heard concerning Maori in New Zealand, is Hebrew really going to be the only
language successfully revived? To a certain degree we could perhaps count
Latvian as enjoying a revival because it is now the working language in the
streets of Riga, I have not encountered any shopkeeper or or official who
would not understand and respond in Latvian though many of them are of
Russian origin, my Latvian friends would never speak to any shopkeeper or
official in Russian these days though that was different 15 years ago. The
trend towards Russian has indeed reversed, the reason are probably various,
the fact that Latvian is in Latin script in contrast to Russian might help
because that makes it easier to learn from there the "world language"
English. Perhaps all that would have been different if Latvia had remained a
part of a Russian-dominated state for another 100 years or so, perhaps we
woul d then witness what happened to Irish, Maori, Low Saxon etc.to Latvian
as well. 50 years of Russian dominance was obviously not enough to make a
substantial change.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks, Helge.

It's interesting you mentioned the example of Latvian.  It brings up the
question as to what extent language reassertion efforts can and should be
taken.

Please do not misunderstand me.  I am just wondering about it and about what
others feel, and I feel we need to examine several sides of the issue.  Is
it a case of "desperate times require desperate measures" and "all that
counts is survival"?  I think that this may be an area where language rights
and human rights clearly touch each other and may even clash with each
other, and different countries will view sa given situation differently
depending on their particular visions of human rights and democracy.

Under the Soviet system, Russian clearly muffled and suffocated other
languages, much like other power languages in multilingual political
structures have been doing.  The Soviet system, despite a Russification and
"denationalization" agenda, at least payed lip service to regional and
minority languages and made them official, which can not be said of other
countries, including some in the West.  Especially the closely related
languages (namely Belarusian and Ukrainian) lost scores of speakers because
the education and media systems favored this and transition from them to
Russian is relatively easy.  While the *main* languages of the newly
independent states now have a chance to reassert themselves, the languages
of Russia, even within the autonomous regions, are still giving way to
Russian. However, the minority languages of the former Soviet republics are
now being eaten away at by the official non-Russian power languages.  These
are not just the indigenous languages (such as Livonian in the case of
Latvia) but also Russian, Ukrainian and other imported "colonial" languages,
even though in several cases Russian is not an actual minority language,
just a quasi-minority, formerly powerful and now officially undesirable
language.

While it is certainly understandable that language reassertion requires
restructuring of the education and communication systems, among others, you
have to ask yourself how far you can go in restricting people's linguistic
rights, and this means *all* people, including Russians and Russified
non-Russians.  Should we relapse and go for payback for their ancestors'
transgressions, saying "become *real* Latvians or get out"?  Very few
Russians in those nations *chose* to live there.  Do they not have the right
to use their language and retain their ethnicity? Should they not have the
right to have private media organizations that use Russian only?  Should
they not have the right to use Russian signage for their private businesses,
with Latvian as an auxiliary, much like Chinese businesses do all over the
world when they display signs in Chinese with auxiliary versions in the
various majority languages?  Unless things have changed since I last visited
there, public display of Chinese characters is illegal in Indonesia, not
display of Arabic, English or other languages.  Whichever way you turn it,
this is a blatantly discriminatory, anti-Chinese policy, and the reasons I
was given for this boil down to taking power away from the Chinese, forcing
them to become "real Indonesians," and "they had it coming after all they
did to us in concert with the Dutch."  When the Latvian language police
patrols the streets on the lookout for non-Latvian signage, focussing on
Russian signage, with other foreign signs or just words (e.g., "pizza,"
"hamburger" or "calzone") prohibited as an afterthought for the sake of
consistency -- does this not amount to pretty much the same type of
discrimination and thus to infringement of individuals' rights?  Is this not
a case of
"Académie Française, Foras na Gaeilge, Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge,
Údarás na Gaeltachta, etc. gone berserk"?

Requiring display of Irish along with English in Ireland is one thing.
Prohibiting the display of English and all other languages would be an
entirely different thing, would it not?

OK, so I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate here.  But think about it!
Honestly, I feel that discrimination is discrimination, irrespective of
who's the target.  I don't care if the discriminated "had it coming" in
popular opinion, especially if they are merely the heirs of the alleged
misdeeds and the undesirable heritage.  Where this sort of attitude of
revenge can land us can be figured out easily by going back just a few
decades or by looking all around us even now.  Is this the sort of thing we
want to be involved in?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

LATVIA TRIES TO FIGHT RUSSIAN LANGUAGE

--Lawmakers hope speech law can save nation's native tongue--

By Steven C. Johnson

_San Jose Mercury News_ 1/23/01

Riga, Latvia – Contemporary Russian music is the rage in Latvia's capital,
but when listeners is the rage in Latvia's capital, but when listeners tuned
in for their daily dose of dance tracks on popular radio station they got
nothing but dead air.

Radio Bizness and Baltic was silenced for three days, caught in the
cross-fire of a battle to defend the Latvian language from extinction.

The law requires 75 percent of all commercials and chat to be in Latvian,
but Radio Bizness' target audience is Russians living in Latvia, says Ivo
Bankavs, its chief engineer. "They want to know what's new in Russian music;
they want to keep up with trends in Moscow; and they want DJs to speak
Russian."

The station is now in court fighting to keep its license.

The struggle stems from the fear of ethnic Latvians that their language may
be swamped by Russian. Nearly 40 percent of the country's 2.4 million people
use Russian as their main language, and often speak little or no Latvian at
all, so the government is aggressively promoting Latvian with tough laws on
public speech.

In the neighboring Baltic republic of Lithuania, whose language is similar
to Latvian, such worries are less pronounced, perhaps because nearly 85
percent of the people are ethnic Lithuanians.

Estonia, whose native tongue is a close cousin to Finnish, has similar
language laws to Latvia's, but also seems less anxious. Seventy percent of
its people are ethnic Estonians.

The Soviet Union annexed Latvia in 1940, and the Latvian language was
overwhelmed by Russian during the country's five decades as a Soviet
republic. Soon after the Soviet Union crumbled in 1991, Latvian-only signs
went up and bilingual Soviet-era signs in Cyrillic were crudely scratched
out.

But many towns and villages remain predominantly Russian, and TV viewers in
Latvia can tune directly Moscow channels.

The language law requires Latvian to be used at public events, and a
government body devises Latvian equivalents to replace borrowed foreign
words. A language police corps tries to ensure that everyone from doctors to
bus drivers speaks enough Latvian to do their jobs.

Eighteen inspectors roam the country, making surprise visits to police
departments or hailing taxi cabs to test the drivers' Latvian skills. Last
year, more than 3,000 inspections were made, and 2,500 people were fined
from one to 50 lats, or less than $2 to $80, a healthy chunk of the average
monthly wage of $240.

The government says the inspectors often let offenders off with a warning,
and insists they have so far never forced anyone out of a job or permanently
closed a business.

"I am 100 percent sure that we must regulate these because this is the only
place in all the world where the Latvian language can survive," said Baldurs
Apinis, vice chairman of the radio and television council, which wants to
shut down Radio Bizness.

Many Russians say that even when they try to learn Latvian, they are
resented.

"The language is used as a stick to beat us," said Aleksandrs Rhzavin, an
ethnic Russian who belongs to a group that campaigns for expanded cultural
rights for Russians.

Russian speakers claim the law is often used to silence unpopular views.

In 1997, Russian schoolteachers Anatonia Ignatane, a critic of government
policy to close Russian schools, campaigned for a seat on the Riga City
Council. Just before the election, language inspectors claimed her Latvian
skills were not up to holding public office.

"The laws are applied very selectively," said left-wing lawmaker Boris
Cilevics, a Russian-speaker who helped Ignatane take discrimination
allegations to the U.N. Human Rights Committee, where a finding is pending.
"If there's someone they want to punish, they just find fault with his
language abilities."

During Soviet times, many Latvians feared their language would one day die.
Philologist Ieva Zuicena, who co-wrote the language law, compiled a Latvian
dictionary in the 1970s and reflected that she was "writing a monument to a
soon-to-be lost language."

Now officials feel they have a second chance, even if they can't restore the
times when Latvians and their language were dominant.

They're certainly not dominant anymore.

The Soviets imposed a Russiciation policy that brought thousands of Russian
and Ukranian workers to Latvia to work in factories and stamp out
nationalist sentiment.

In Daugavpils, Latvia's largest city after Riga, Russians make up 87 percent
of the population and you can go days without hearing a word of Latvian.
Still, every street sign is in Latvian, as are announcements at the bus
station.

Though many Russians remain monolingual, waiters and shop assistants often
will use Latvian, or at least broken Latvian, before resorting to Russian or
English.

Latvian also has become the language of business and higher education, and
Russians need it to get good jobs.

"The idea that we don't want to learn Latvian, that we're lazy is a myth,"
said Leonids Raihmans, a Russian civil rights campaigner. "We just don't
want to become Latvian and abandon our culture."

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 02:26:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:26:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.25 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.192617.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: spelling

A new spelling adjustment for Dutch is anounced in the papers.

Quote from "De Standaard"

25 april 2005
18:37:47

Ook Surinaamse woorden in nieuw Groen Boekje
Meer verscheidenheid en toch meer eenheid in standaardspelling

      BREDA - Handknie, oftewel elleboog is één van de ongeveer 500
Surinaamse woorden die in het nieuwe Groene Boekje zullen staan. De nieuwe
uitgave van de Woordenlijst Nederlandse Taal, zoals het boekje officieel
heet, komt er in oktober. Er zal overigens weinig veranderen aan de
standaardspelling van de Nederlandse taal. Wel werd in de nieuwe editie naar
meer eenduidigheid gestreefd.

      De ministers van de Nederlandse Taalunie hebben vandaag in Breda de
voorstellen voor de nieuwe Woordenlijst Nederlandse taal goedgekeurd. Voor
het eerst zijn daarin ook een aantal woorden opgenomen die in het Nederlands
van Suriname worden gebruikt, zoals schuier (Surinaams voor tandenborstel),
handknie (elleboog) of okseltruitje (mouwloos t-shirt). Suriname is immers
sinds vorig jaar lid van de Nederlandse Taalunie, naast België en Nederland.

      Ook het aantal Belgisch-Nederlandse woorden in de lijst is uitgebreid.
Nieuwe "Belgische" trefwoorden zijn achterpoortje, brugpensioenleeftijd en
trein-tram-busdag. Uit de lijst zijn ook een aantal in onbruik geraakte
woorden verdwenen. Het gaat onder meer om aalgeer, behoef en diergelijk.
Heel wat samenstellingen zonder spellingprobleem zijn ook uit de lijst
gehaald. Zo telde de editie van 1995 meer dan 130 samenstellingen met geld-,
nu zijn dat er nog een dertigtal.

      Verder zijn ook een aantal woorden uit de lijst met versteende
samenstellingen geschrapt en worden die nu met tussen-n geschreven. Zo is
het voortaan dronkenlap, dronkenman en paddenstoel.

      Een spellingregel over de tussen-n is meteen ook de enige
systematische aanpassing. Want voor de nieuwe editie mochten de
spellingregels an sich niet veranderen. Door de kleine wijziging krijgen
samenstellingen met een dierennaam als eerste deel en een plantkundige
aanduiding als tweede, zoals paardenbloem, voortaan wel een tussen-n.

      Om meer eenvormigheid te krijgen, zijn er enkele wijzigingen
doorgevoerd aan het gebruik van hoofdletters. Volkennamen krijgen nu ook een
hoofletter, zodat je tegenwoordig Azteek, Eskimo en Kelt moet schrijven. Ten
slotte is ook gewerkt aan het eenduidiger maken van een aantal Engelse
samenstellingen: fullcolour wordt full colour, eye-opener wordt eyeopener
(er is geen klinkerbotsing) pull-over wordt pullover en on line wordt
online.

      De spelling volgens de nieuwe woordenlijst zal op 1 augustus 2006
ingevoerd worden in Vlaanderen en Nederland en zal dus in het onderwijs van
kracht zijn vanaf het schooljaar 2006-2007.

25/04/2005 - dba

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 02:30:49 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:30:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.25 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.193049.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (07) [E/LS]

When did we lose shat?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

How nice to see that some organizations still practise common courtesy!

Please see below, regarding my proposal about "ron".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

 From: "OED3" oed3 at oup.com
To:  arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com, sassisch at yahoo.com

 Dear Sirs,

Many thanks for the e-mail on the etymology of 'ron n./1' which you
copied to the Oxford English Dictionary. I have passed it on to our files
for attention when work begins in this part of the alphabet.

Best wishes,

Fiona McPherson
Senior Editor OED.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 03:44:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:44:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.04.25 (05) [E/Turkish]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.204411.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Dear Lowlanders,

This is indeed a time of many anniversaries.  Included is the current 90th
anniversary of the battle of Gallipoli/Kilitbahir, Gelibolu, Turkey, during
which thousands and thousands of Australians, New Zealanders and Turks were
massacred.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

   AND THE BAND PLAYED WALTZING MATILDA

   By Eric Bogle

   Now when I was a young man I carried me pack
   And I lived the free life of the rover.
   From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback,
   Well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
   Then in 1915, my country said, "Son,
   It's time you stop ramblin', there's work to be done."
   So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
   And they marched me away to the war.

      And the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
      As the ship pulled away from the quay,
      And amidst all the cheers, the flag waving, and tears,
      We sailed off for Gallipoli.

   And how well I remember that terrible day,
   How our blood stained the sand and the water;
   And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
   We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
   Johnny Turk, he was waitin', he primed himself well;
   He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell --
   And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
   Nearly blew us right back to Australia.

      But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
      When we stopped to bury our slain,
      Well, we buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
      Then we started all over again.

   And those that were left, well, we tried to survive
   In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
   And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive
   Though around me the corpses piled higher.
   Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
   And when I woke up in me hospital bed
   And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead --
   Never knew there was worse things than dying.

      For I'll go no more "Waltzing Matilda,"
      All around the green bush far and free -
      To hump tents and pegs, a man needs both legs,
      No more "Waltzing Matilda" for me.

   So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
   And they shipped us back home to Australia.
   The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane,
   Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
   And as our ship sailed into Circular Quay,
   I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
   And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
   To grieve, to mourn and to pity.

      But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
      As they carried us down the gangway,
      But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
      Then they turned all their faces away.

   And so now every April, I sit on my porch
   And I watch the parade pass before me.
   And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
   Reviving old dreams of past glory,
   And the old men march slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
   They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
   And the young people ask "What are they marching for?"
   And I ask meself the same question.

***

   DUR YOLCU!

   Necmettin Halil Onan

   Dur yolcu! Bilmeden gelip bastığın,
   Bu toprak, bir devrin battığı yerdir.
   Eğil de kulak ver bu sessiz yığın
   Bir vatan kalbinin attığı yerdir.

   Bu ıssız, gölgesiz yolun sonunda,
   Gördüğün bu tümsek, Anadolu’nda
   İstiklal uğruna, namus yolunda,
   Can veren Mehmet’in yattığı yerdir.

   Bu tümsek, koparken büyük zelzele
   Son vatan parçası geçerken ele
   Mehmet’in düşmanı boğduğu sele
   Mübarek kanını kattığı yerdir.

   Düşün ki haşrolan kan, kemik, etin
   Yaptığı bu tümsek amansız çetin
   Bir harbin sonunda bütün milletin
   Hürriyet zevkini tattığı yerdir.

***

   STOP, TRAVELER!

   By Necmettin Halil Onan
   Draft Translation by R. F. Hahn

   Stop, traveler! Foreign to you this ground
   On which you tread, an era spread.
   Stoop low and hark, for this still mound
   Is where a nation's heart heaves sighs.

   To the left this desolate path with no shade,
   Anatolia's slope, examine it well,
   For it's freedom and honor regained in pain,
   Where Mehmet lay down his life, was slain.

   This self-same mound, when the earth did quake,
   When the last inch of dirt passed to and fro,
   When Mehmet drowned with force the foe,
   Is where he spilled his very blood.

   Where the sacred blood and flesh and bone
   Mounts high and higher, a people at home,
   After ruthless and merciless warfare alone,
   Tasted liberty's bliss and elation.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 15:22:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.082209.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.25 (04) [E]


Ben Bloomgren wrote:
"When did we lose shat?"

We haven't. In most of England it remains the past tense of the verb "to
shit". It even appears to have become more popular over the last twenty
years in my experience. Northern English and Hiberno-English forms are based
on _shite_ - e.g., past tense _shite_ and _shat_, and _shit_ as a weak past
tense along the lines of _driv_ for _drove_.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Críostóir (above):


> Ben Bloomgren wrote:
> "When did we lose shat?"
>
> We haven't.

Not English as a whole but American English, certainly the dialects within
the standard range.  The same goes for "spat" (preterite of "spit").  People
look at me strangely when I say "spat," so I'm caught somewhere between
wanting to stop it and not being able to bring myself to saying "spit" for
the preterite.  "Shat" and "spat" are considered quite alien, and some
people won't even know what they mean.

By the way, this also goes for the pronunciation "at" for "ate."  I've
always found that strange myself and don't say it.  I suppose it is derived
from a variant with a short vowel: _atte_ ['at@] vs _ate_ ['a:t@].

Low Saxon (North Saxon):

shit: schyten > schyt - scheyt - scheyten
        (schieten > schiet - scheet - scheten)
        ['Si:t=n] > [Si:t] - [SEIt] - ['SEIt=n]
        Pres.: ik schyt [Si:t], du schitst [SItst], hey schitt [SIt],
             wy schytt [Si:t] ~ schyten ['Si:t=n]

shoot: scheyten > scheyt - schoyt~schout - schoyten~schouten~schaten
        (scheten > scheet - schööt~schoot - schöten~schoten~schaten)
        ['SEIt=n]  > [SEIt] - [S9It] ~ [SOUt] - ['S9It=n] ~ ['SOUt=n] ~
[S@:t=n]
        Pres.: ik scheyt [SEIt] - du schütst [SYtst] - hey schütt [SYt] -
             wy scheytt [SEIt] ~ scheyten ['SEIt=n]

sit: sitten > seyt - sat - seten
        (sitten > seet - satt - seten)
        ['zIt=n] > [zEIt] - [zat] - ['ze:t=n]
        Pres.: ik sit [zIt], du sitst [zItst], hey sitt [zIt], wy sitt [zIt]
~ sitten ['zIt=n]

eat: eten > eet - eyt - eyten
        (eten > eet - eet - eten)
        [e:t=n] > [e:t] - [EIt] - ['e:t=n]
        pres.: ik eet [e:t], du itst [Itst], hey itt [It], wy eett [e:t] ~
eten ['e:t=n]

NB: [e:] ~ [E:], [EI] ~ [aI], [OU] ~ [aU], [9I] ~ [OI], [@:] ~ [o:] ~ [a:]
depending on dialect

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 15:34:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:34:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.083445.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.25 (02) [E]


Ron wrote:
"Please do not misunderstand me. I am just wondering about it and about what
others feel, and I feel we need to examine several sides of the issue. Is it
a case of "desperate times require desperate measures" and "all that counts
is survival"? I think that this may be an area where language rights and
human rights clearly touch each other and may even clash with each other..."

This is certainly the case. I think of Latvia and Latvian as something of a
special case, because of the influx of Russophone Soviet settlers that
almost reduced Latvians to a minority (if Latvia had been in the Soviet
Union another ten years I believe this would have taken place) and
endangered the survival of Latvian. There is little chance that Latvian
could have achieved its present pre-eminent status in Latvia if Russian had
remained a co-official language. Many of the Russophones were openly
anti-Latvian language, and saw no social, political or economic advantage in
obtaining any Latvian. Now that cannot be said to be the case.

Another comparison might be with English immigrants to Wales. For decades
there was no need for English immigrants to Welsh-speaking areas to learn a
word of Welsh, because English was (and is) the dominant language of the UK.
However, things appear to be changing if census data are to be believed, and
a large number of those born outside Wales have acquired some skills in the
language. While much has to be done - especially with regard to second home
owners and the like - the reality is that Welsh is seen as a social,
political and economic asset today.

Ron also wrote:
"Requiring display of Irish along with English in Ireland is one thing.
Prohibiting the display of English and all other languages would be an
entirely different thing, would it not?"

Your statement raises two responses. Firstly, Irish is, under the
Constitution, the "national and first official language". Consequently, the
Government is legally beholden to give precedence to Irish. I say
"precedence" because the wording is "first" official language (English is
the "second"). Of course, the Irish Government does not follow its own rules
(and in fact finds inventive ways to circumnavigate those rules) so that
Irish is rarely used officially, and then only as an afterthought. Secondly,
I think prohibition of English on signage or other official uses in the
Gaeltacht, where the majority of the population is supposed to have Irish as
its daily language, is not only desirable but absolutely necessary. What,
otherwise, is the point in having a Gaeltacht than to uphold the usage -
both publicly and privately - of Irish as the main or only language of daily
communication?

It would be an easy and wonderful thing if Ireland became truly bilingual a
la Finland, Canada or Wales, but there's too many anti-Irish Irish [sic] -
especially in Government - for that to ever happen in my pessimistic
assessment. Irish is considered a useless family heirloom - pretty to look
at and remind us where we came from, but best left in the attic and not
shown to too many visitors.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir

-----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thank you very much for your well-worded response, Críostóir, and for
presenting another aspect to us.  It's good to have someone so well informed
about these matters on board.

I can certainly see why you would think of the Latvian case as a special,
pretty much desperate, case, although I still have serious reservations
regarding the thought of the language police banging on people's doors.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 15:36:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:36:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.083640.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.25 (03) [D/E]

Re " het groene boekje"

Roger Thijs quotes from the "Green Bible of Dutch Ortography"

MMM.... Paddenstoel? Ik wist niet dat we er daarvan hadden die groot
genoeg waren voor meer dan een pad tegelijk? Behalve dan misschien de
"vliegen(ge)zwam. Jacqueline

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 15:46:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:46:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.26 (04) [E/Germany]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.084621.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

I have received another response to our anniversary presentation and have
been given permission to pass it on to you.  Please find it below.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Olaf's website (with excellent Westphalian dialect resources):
http://home.wxs.nl/~obd/obo/platt/ned.htm

***

From: "Olaf Bordasch" <o.bordasch at planet.nl>
Subject:  Achterhooksk und Westfälisch

Hallo Reinhard Hahn,

herzlichen Glückwunsch zum zehnjährigen Bestehen von "Lowlands"!

Ich will nicht verhehlen, dass ich so meine Schwierigkeiten mit Lowlands
habe und mich häufiger darüber ärgere. Dass ich regelmäßig die Beiträge im
Lowlands-Archiv lese, spricht aber für sich. - Und für Lowlands.

Langer Rede kurzer Sinn: Ich habe auf der Jubiläumsseite von Lowlands die
Geschichte vom Zaunkönig in der Mundart des Achterhook gefunden und sie mir
mehrmals angehört. Die Sache ist eindeutig: Achterhooksk ist Westfälisch.

Folgende Gründe lassen sich anführen:

- Dass auch im Achterhook altlanges und tonlanges -a- unterschieden werden,
ist klar. Das war zu erwarten.

- Ebenso wie das Westmünsterländische hat auch das Achterhooksk früher
einmal die westfälische Brechungen gekannt, hat sie aber zu verschiedenen
Längen und Kürzen weiterentwickelt. (Wäre es Niedersächsisch, wären anstelle
der Brechungen ausschließlich gedehnte Vokale zu erwarten, die zusätzlich
noch gesenkt worden wären.)

Ich kann die Mundart von Winterswijk gut verstehen, und sie klingt mir
angenehm in der Ohren. Es lässt sich aber nicht übersehen, dass auch diese
Grenzmundart schon vom Holländischen beeinflusst wurde.

Ich belästige Sie völlig ungebeten mit dieser E-mail, weil Sie vor einiger
Zeit in einer Antwort an Ingmar Roerdinkholder (glaube ich) die These
vertreten haben, "die Mundarten des Achterhooks und Twentes wären dem
Westfälischen verwandt, so nicht Westfälisch". - Genauso ging es mir, ich
war auch unsicher.

Was die Mundart von Winterswijk angeht, ist für die Sache für mich geklärt.

Das ist Westfälisch und gehört in dieselbe Kategorie wie das
Westmünsterländische. (Nicht zu verwechseln mit dem Münsterländischen, das
die Brechung bewahrt hat.)

Vielen Dank also für die MP3-Aufnahme aus Winterswijk!

Gruß,

Olaf Bordasch

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 19:46:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:46:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (05) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.124609.0700.>

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (03) [D/E]


>From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.25 (03) [D/E]
>
>Re " het groene boekje"
>
>Roger Thijs quotes from the "Green Bible of Dutch Ortography"
>
>MMM.... Paddenstoel? Ik wist niet dat we er daarvan hadden die groot
>genoeg waren voor meer dan een pad tegelijk? Behalve dan misschien
>de
>"vliegen(ge)zwam. Jacqueline

The old rule (making more sense IMHO) of -en when plural and -e when
singular, is no more. Now the rule is based upon the plurals that the word
can have. Eg. groentesoep, because groenten & groentes. But waardeoordeel
because only waarden exist, not waardes.
Compounds with pad have, according to the new rules, always -en- when you
hear [@] in the middle.

Diederik Masure

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (03) [D/E]

Yeah, this new Dutch spelling... I really hate it! Already the first ugly
version of it, that is about as old as our beautiful LLList...
It is based on the Non Low Saxon accent of Dutch, that never pronounce the
<n> in <-en>. For us Saxons, who clearly differentiate <-en> from <-e>,
it is frustrating and confusing having to write <paddeNstoel> when we
pronounce <paddEstoel>, but in other words like <padden> or <stoelen>
we do pronounce <n>. But the majority of Dutch speakers, of the central
dialects of Holland and Brabant, don't pronounce final -n at all.
For them it's difficult to know when -en or -e is spelled...
That is why there are two possibilities of forming plural for words ending
in -e (schwa): both -en and -es.
Zum Beispiel:
kudde-kudden/kuddes (flock), voorwaarde-voorwaarden/voorwaardes(condition)
behoefte-behoeften/behoeftes (need) etc.

In colloquial Dutch, the -es form is predominant, because there is no
difference heard between -e and -en. But in formal language it is -en.

Also note the difference between:

echtgenotEN (spouses/husbands) - echtgenoteS (wives)
arrestantEN (arrested men)     - arrestanteS (arrested women)
ChineZen (Chinese men) - ChineSen (Chinese women)
AngoleZen(Angolese mn) - AngoleSen(Chinese women)
etc

Ingmar

>From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.25 (03) [D/E]
>
>Re " het groene boekje"
>
>Roger Thijs quotes from the "Green Bible of Dutch Ortography"
>
>MMM.... Paddenstoel? Ik wist niet dat we er daarvan hadden die groot
>genoeg waren voor meer dan een pad tegelijk? Behalve dan misschien de
>"vliegen(ge)zwam. Jacqueline

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 19:56:12 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:56:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.125612.0700.>

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From: Thomas Byro <greenherring at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (01) [E]

Dear Ron:

I guess that this would come under a culinary heading.  I told my sons
a few days ago that in my opinion, gefilte fish makes a wonderful
flavoring for horseradish.  I remember encountering horseradish
occasionally in my lowlands childhood but it was not an important item
in my family.  There are cultures though where large quantitities of
horseradish are consumed.The Ukrainian National Home on the Lower East
Side in NYC makes a wonderful boiled beef with horseradish sauce (with
kasha on the side).  Do you or anyone else have any lowlands recipes
calling for horseradish?  The more horseradish the better.

Tom Byro

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Hello, Tom, and welcome back in our midst!  Great to see you couldn't stay
away for good.

Are you still eatin' them herrings?

Personally, I love horseraddish, but I was and am the only one at home, and
my repertoire is limited to "exotic" dishes, and now that I eat meat, fish
and potatoes very rarely or hardly ever my need for horseraddish has
lessoned accordingly.  I'll rummage around to see if I can find anything.
Unfortunately, my Old Hamburg cookbook has preceded me to California.  I
know that it has plenty of recipes you'd find interesting.

However, there are plenty of eaters and cooks around here besides me.  So,
with luck you'll hear from them.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 20:07:18 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:07:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.26 (07) [E/MEnglish]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.130718.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.25 (04) [E]

From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Subject: The Righte Honourable Raginhard Hawn's
Compleet Historie of RON, togethere wythe the related
Earthe-Tremours in Oxford.

"I deem there be nought save tremblynge,
Of unsene forces fraile,
Ideas, like moths, encas'd in ambre,
Chas'd by fearsomme cosmik gale,

The Perfecte Chorde of Energie,
Struck as by Lyre into empt Vastnesse,
Cool'd by sayme soete Harmonie,
Into alle Mattere, join'd and fastenned."

--Usually attributed to a West Saxon Quantum physicist
of the ninth Century, after stumbling across String
Theory.

Congrats, Ron. What a fine and complete etymology. The only link you left
out was Lydian "raan", which survives todayonly in the "Rann of Kutch";
meaning that a Ron was originally, and best, sung alone on a remote plain.
;-).

After much agonizing thought, I have decided to ignore all the recent
preoccupation with Low Germanic scatology. We are dealing here with words
and phrases that became polished and honed to efficiency eons ago with daily
usage in nearly every tribe around.Hence the amazing similarities today,
from Swedish to Viennese.
Enough S--- already!

Hails,

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 20:40:16 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:40:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.26 (08) [E/Middle English/Old French]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.134016.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Auparavant écrit par le Monsor Arthur, un Gentilz Homme trez Admirable, de
grand Apprentissage et de la Gentillesse trez rare:

> The only link you left
> out was Lydian "raan", which survives todayonly in the "Rann of Kutch";
> meaning that a Ron was originally, and best, sung alone on a remote plain.
> ;-).

Rethorye for the Nones of Oure Xth Anniversayre

de Raginhard Hawne
   ~ Aussy largement connu comme
   Le Troubadour Humilyant de la Saxe Vraye ~


   ~ avec un glossarium adjouté
   pour l'advantage du novice ~
___

   OU'R THWART THE PLEYNE

   A rerd, a rowste, a ron by hym soleyne
   Sung as a pleynt apon the vaste pleyne
   Was herd fer pleyn among the wolues-bonds
   And wolues-heeds y-spercled thurgh the londs,
   A medlee floc floc-mele gaderyng
   Fram fele plages sechyng faderyng,
   There rynges lederes stark, fayre hond
   To leden thwart there wong, there Laghelond,
   There ogen soken, ogen sayntuarye
   Ful murth and fele maner maysterye.
   Ten yeres prollyd they ou'r thwart the pleyne
   Carolyng rons nou samen, nan soleyne.
   There tonges and telynges owyng rounes vaste
   And tresores to whilk hy holden stedfast' faste.
   Grand mercy, thos, to sownes y-caryed fer
   Y-hyer'd by opyn ers and holdyn cher!

Glossary:

   anniversayre: anniversary
   bond: band
   caroling: dancing in a round, singing
   cher: dear
   er: ear
   faderyng: fathering
   faste: fast, tight
   fayre: fair, kindly
   fele: many, much
   fer: far; quite
   floc: flock, group, crowd
   floc-mele: in crowds
   fram: from
   ful: full
   gaderen: to gather
   grande mercy: many thanks
   herd: heard
   holden: (to) hold
   holdyn: held
   hond: hand
   hy: they
   hym: him
   laghe: low
   leden: to lead
   leder: leader
   lond: land
   maner: manner, sort, kind
   maysterye: mastery, success, skill
   medlee: many-colored, diverse
   murth: mirth
   nan: none, not, no
   nones: occasion
   nou: now
   ogen: own
   opyn: open
   ou'r thwart: all across, all over
   owyng: owning, having
   plage: shore, land, country
   pleyn: plain(ly), clear(ly)
   pleyne: plain
   pleynt: plaint
   prollyd: prowled, roamed in search
   rerd: voice, sound
   retorye: oration
   ron: song
   roune: rune, mystery
   rowste: voice
   ryng: round dance, round
   samen: together
   sayntuarye: sanctuary
   seche: seek
   soken: territory, precinct, shire
   soleyne: solitary, alone
   sowne: sound
   stark: strong
   stedfast(e): steadfast(ly)
   telynge: practice of magic, study, culture
   there: their
   thos: thus, therefore
   thurgh: through(out)
   thwart: across
   tonge: tongue, language
   tresor: treasure
   whilk: which
   wolues-heed: wolve's head, outlaw
   wong: meadow land, plain, territory
   y-caryed: carried
   yeres: years
   y-hyered: heard
   y-spercled: scattered

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 22:25:12 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:25:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.152512.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]

Hi, Tom,

horseradish (I guess, horses shall never try it to eat!) is very famous in
our region.

In the famous cherry- and apple-region near Hamburg, called "Das Alte Land",
people call it in their local LS: 'Myrrk", in G: 'Meerettich', in Austria
'Kren'..

Well- try it those ways:

1. Grate the fresh horseraddish as fine as possible, mix it with some sugar,
and add sweet cream as much as necesarry to make it weaker, specially for
Your children. Enjoy it with fish, as You already pointed up.
But- never take any type of canned horseradish; it's mostly mixed up and
conserved with sulphur. Horrible- bäh.

2. Prepare the radish as above, but with boiled beef:
You have to boil a certain part of a beef (called 'Tafelspitz', near the
tail of an ox; about 1,5 kg) for two or better three hours in a bouillion of
vegetables (onions, leek, carots, celery, some black pepper, a small piece
of ginger and, of course, not too less salt). Be careful- the lowest heat
You can manage on Your stove is best.
Take out the meat and wait a part of the bouillion on table, as starter.
Take the rest and enrich it with some sweet cream, sugar and try to thicken
it with some wheat- or corn-pour. A piece of butter is welcomed.
Then You have to add the prepared horseradish, as described above.

Cut the meat into very thin slices and serve it with the sauce and
German-typic boiled potatoes. Additional: some sugared cranberry-jelly,
perhaps even mixed with the grated horseradish.
If You like You may add some raisins You have weakened the night before in a
cup of water.

3. Salad
Very German-like! You have to open a tin of sour-krout and to peel and slice
some fresh apples. Put it together, mix it, then add just a little bit! salt
and sugar and some horseradish at last.

You want to stay a good friend to Your children? Don't serve it too often,
and don't be too generous with that damned hot vegetable. Everyone at your
table should be able to strengthen the taste with some horseradish served
apartly on a special plate in accordance with his own gusto.

Enjoy it, and I shall feel with You when You're crying like a 'dog of a
castle' while grating the radish.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

BTW: This above described salad we serve in special to baked herring and
potatoe-puree. Really!

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]

Tom,

as I just remember:

You can serve horseradish (prepared the way I wrote) to every type of
[smoked] fish (trouts, salmon, graved-salmon...) and meat (ham, bacon etc.).
You even should try it with aromatic cheese-types.
The same on sandwiches, with Middle- and Eastern-European, smoked or not,
sausage variations, instead of mustard.

Good health!

Greutens/sincerely once more

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks, Jonny!  I bet Tom, our prodigal son, will enjoy that, especially if
it can be combined with herring.  :-)

> In the famous cherry- and apple-region near Hamburg, called "Das Alte
> Land",
> people call it in their local LS: 'Myrrk", in G: 'Meerettich', in Austria
> 'Kren'..

I call it _merrik_ (German _Meerrettich_, bot. _Amoracia rusticana_).

Personally, I prefer the Japanese variant: 山葵 _wasabi_ (_Wasabia japonica_),
especially when it "shoots out the nose," as I call it ... Ouch! Yeah!
Goood!

By the way, horseraddish (Yiddish כרײן _khreyn_) is the מרור_maror_ ("bitter
(vegetable)") of choice at the Passover seder table, and kosher delis,
especially in New York City, should be able to give you horseraddish up the
yin-yang, since it goes perfectly with all those incomparable, enormously
stacked sandwiches.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 22:36:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:36:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.26 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.153609.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.26 (02) [E]

Hi Criostóir, I think you're right that Irish should be the first and
maybe only public language in language reservations like the Gaeltacht.

By the way, when do we get an Irish (or Scottish) Gaelic version of the
Wren from you? Now, under Celtic, we only find the P-Celtic/Brittonic
Welsh, Breton and Cornish. I really miss Irish, Scottish and Manx..!

Ingmar

>Your statement raises two responses. Firstly, Irish is, under the
>Constitution, the "national and first official language". Consequently,
the
>Government is legally beholden to give precedence to Irish. I say
>"precedence" because the wording is "first" official language (English is
>the "second"). Of course, the Irish Government does not follow its own
rules
>(and in fact finds inventive ways to circumnavigate those rules) so that
>Irish is rarely used officially, and then only as an afterthought.
Secondly,
>I think prohibition of English on signage or other official uses in the
>Gaeltacht, where the majority of the population is supposed to have Irish
as
>its daily language, is not only desirable but absolutely necessary. What,
>otherwise, is the point in having a Gaeltacht than to uphold the usage -
>both publicly and privately - of Irish as the main or only language of
daily
>communication?
>
>It would be an easy and wonderful thing if Ireland became truly bilingual
a
>la Finland, Canada or Wales, but there's too many anti-Irish Irish [sic] -
>especially in Government - for that to ever happen in my pessimistic
>assessment. Irish is considered a useless family heirloom - pretty to look
>at and remind us where we came from, but best left in the attic and not
>shown to too many visitors.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 22:40:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:40:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.26 (11) [LS/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.154052.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.26 (04) [E/Germany]

Olaf, myn Hoogduytsch is neet so good, dorümme antworde ik lever in et
Hamelandsch Neddersassisch. Ik bin blyde das dou de Wenterswykche versien
van et Nettelköningsken lyden kast. De heb ik samen met myne leve groot-
moder emaket, en ik hebbe sölf dat verhaelken up MP3 esprökken.

Wi könt et Wenterswyksch verhaal met et Bokeltsch verglyken. Et is jommer
dat der ginne geluydsupname van Bokelt (Bocholt) is, ik kenne Egon Reiches
verhaelkes sowal in gesprökken as in geschrevven vorm. Dat bint bynao
twilling-dialekte, allenig in ünse (ächterhööksche) oorne klingt et
Bokelts noch al Prüüssisch, krek as et Wentersch in voer ou wat Hollandsch
sal lyken, dücht mi.

Dou hest et good esegd: West-Mönstersch en Oost-Ächterhööksch, evven as
Twentsch, et Suyd-Sallandsch en (Ovver-)Benthems bint allen ene en de
sölvde spraoke. Dou nöömst et Westfaelsch, ik segge lever Hamelandsch,
ümdat der in Westfalen toch noch völle verschellen bestaot tüschen et ene
of et andere gebeed... En jüst disse vyv landstreken bint ene eenheid,
taalkündig esene. Hameland was een old land (gouw) dat vrogger in dat
gebeed lag, waor at nou disse dialekte esprökken wardt...

Dan noch wat to fraogen, Olaf: dou segs da's dou di af en to (vake?)
argern döst an Lowlands, ik wil gerne weten worümme dat is. Welke dinger
bint neet good, findst dou?
Dat döt mi seer niy, dorümme haope ik da's dou uns beantworden sast!

Hartelike groetnisse van Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: "Olaf Bordasch" <o.bordasch at planet.nl>
>Subject:  Achterhooksk und Westfälisch
>
>Hallo Reinhard Hahn,
>
>herzlichen Glückwunsch zum zehnjährigen Bestehen von "Lowlands"!
>
>Ich will nicht verhehlen, dass ich so meine Schwierigkeiten mit Lowlands
>habe und mich häufiger darüber ärgere. Dass ich regelmäßig die Beiträge im
>Lowlands-Archiv lese, spricht aber für sich. - Und für Lowlands.
>
>Langer Rede kurzer Sinn: Ich habe auf der Jubiläumsseite von Lowlands die
>Geschichte vom Zaunkönig in der Mundart des Achterhook gefunden und sie
mir
>mehrmals angehört. Die Sache ist eindeutig: Achterhooksk ist Westfälisch.
>
>Folgende Gründe lassen sich anführen:
>
>- Dass auch im Achterhook altlanges und tonlanges -a- unterschieden
werden,
>ist klar. Das war zu erwarten.
>
>- Ebenso wie das Westmünsterländische hat auch das Achterhooksk früher
>einmal die westfälische Brechungen gekannt, hat sie aber zu verschiedenen
>Längen und Kürzen weiterentwickelt. (Wäre es Niedersächsisch, wären
anstelle
>der Brechungen ausschließlich gedehnte Vokale zu erwarten, die zusätzlich
>noch gesenkt worden wären.)
>
>Ich kann die Mundart von Winterswijk gut verstehen, und sie klingt mir
>angenehm in der Ohren. Es lässt sich aber nicht übersehen, dass auch diese
>Grenzmundart schon vom Holländischen beeinflusst wurde.
>
>Ich belästige Sie völlig ungebeten mit dieser E-mail, weil Sie vor einiger
>Zeit in einer Antwort an Ingmar Roerdinkholder (glaube ich) die These
>vertreten haben, "die Mundarten des Achterhooks und Twentes wären dem
>Westfälischen verwandt, so nicht Westfälisch". - Genauso ging es mir, ich
>war auch unsicher.
>
>Was die Mundart von Winterswijk angeht, ist für die Sache für mich
geklärt.
>
>Das ist Westfälisch und gehört in dieselbe Kategorie wie das
>Westmünsterländische. (Nicht zu verwechseln mit dem Münsterländischen, das
>die Brechung bewahrt hat.)
>
>Vielen Dank also für die MP3-Aufnahme aus Winterswijk!
>
>Gruß,
>
>Olaf Bordasch

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 23:07:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:07:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.26 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.160752.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.26 (01) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>The same goes for "spat" (preterite of "spit").  People
look at me strangely when I say "spat," <

What else could you say?

I spitted????????? that would beg a direct object    What did you spit i.e.
transfix by means of a long thin metal/wooden rod with the intent of
cooking over an open fire!

Stink   stank   stunk   is giving way to stink stunk  stunk       as is
shrink        nowadays one often hears    shrink shrunk shrunk

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi, Heather!

> What else could you say?

I spit now. I spit five minutes ago. I have spit many times in the past.
:-)

So:
spit - spat - have spat ~ spit - spit - have spit
shit - shat - have shat ~ shit - shit - have shit

These are now listed in most dictionaries are permissible variants.

Analogous to:
hit - hit - have hit
fit - fit - have fit
quit - quit - have quit

But still:
sit - sat - have sat
(also in American)

Weak:
knit - knitted - have knitted
grit - gritted - have gritted
flit - flitted - have flitted
pit - pitted - have pitted

Don't blame *me* though!  I plead innocence in all of this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 14:41:36 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:41:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.04.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.074136.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.04.25 (05) [E/Turkish]

Aye Ron but let's not forget the many British and French troops who suffered
the same fate during this shambles.
Sadly here in Australia one gets the impression they did it all.
Your 'draft' translation of that Turkish poem is stunning to say the least.

On 26/04/2005, at 1:44 PM, Lowlands-L wrote:

> This is indeed a time of many anniversaries.  Included is the current
> 90th
> anniversary of the battle of Gallipoli/Kilitbahir, Gelibolu, Turkey,
> during
> which thousands and thousands of Australians, New Zealanders and Turks
> were
> massacred.
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Oh!  Thanks, Tom.  I beg everyone's pardon.  It was a sad omission that
shows Australian or ANZAC conditioning, where fallen British and French
soldiers are afterthoughts at best.

Thanks for setting this right, Tom.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 15:16:27 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:16:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.27 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.081627.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.26 (12) [E]


Ron wrote:
"I spit now. I spit five minutes ago. I have spit many times in the past."

Ugh! That middle one makes no grammatical sense whatsoever. It's a present
tense pretending to be past. The third one looks a little odd the more I say
it aloud, but the second one is simply, well, wrong.

[x:rxgq.ph]

Go raibh maith agat

Criostóir.

----------

From: Dan Prohaska <danielprohaska at bluewin.ch>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

>>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Etymology

>>Críostóir (above):

>>> Ben Bloomgren wrote:
>>> "When did we lose shat?"
>>>
>>> We haven't.

>>Not English as a whole but American English, certainly the dialects
>>within the standard range.  The same goes for "spat" (preterite of
>>"spit").  People look at me strangely when I say "spat," so I'm
>>caught somewhere between wanting to stop it and not being able to
>>bring myself to saying "spit" for the preterite.  "Shat" and "spat"
>>are considered quite alien, and some people won't even know what
>>they mean.

Dear Reinhardt, everybody,
I can't remember ever having a past tense of <spit> other than <spat>, and
<shot> from <shoot>. I have noticed though, that I've rarely if ever used
the past tense of <shit>. I'd rather say "I went for a shit" or "I had a
shit" rather than "I shat".

>>By the way, this also goes for the pronunciation "at" for "ate."
>>I've always found that strange myself and don't say it.  I suppose
>>it is derived from a variant with a short vowel: _atte_ ['at@] vs
>>_ate_ ['a:t@].

Actually <at> is the historical 1st and 3rd person singular.  West Saxon Old
English had:

infinitive:       etan
1st present:      ete
2nd present:      itst
3rd present:      itt
pl. present:      etaþ

1st, 3rd past:    æt
2nd past:         æ:te
pl. past:         æ:ton

pp.:              (ge-)eten

The historical singular is continued in dialectal /æt/ and in standard /Et/,
the latter being a contaminated form, meaning with the vowel quantity of the
singular and the quality of the plural. A similar kind of contamination is
the reason that the past tense of <read> is /rEd/ and not /ræd/.

<Ate> is a bit more difficult to explain. I’d say it’s either an early
analogically formed plural using the singular stem which was subsequently
lengthened in open syllables in the 13th century – or it is a reading
pronunciation. It could also be a more northerly form that was transferred
to the US and subsequently re-imported to the South – just an idea, but it
always surprises me how many North Midlands and northern forms survive in
the US where they are “only” dialectal in England. But this is just a wild
card.

Dan

>>Low Saxon (North Saxon):
>>eat: eten > eet - eyt - eyten
>>          (eten > eet - eet - eten)
>>          [e:t=n] > [e:t] - [EIt] - ['e:t=n]
>>          pres.: ik eet [e:t], du itst [Itst], hey itt [It], wy eett [e:t]
>>         ~     eten ['e:t=n]

----------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.26 (01) [E]

On 27/04/2005, at 1:22 AM, Críostóir Ó Ciardha
<paada_please at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Ben Bloomgren wrote:
> "When did we lose shat?"
>
> We haven't. In most of England it remains the past tense of the verb
> "to
> shit".

And in the Land of Oz as Ron can confirm.
We even have an epic poem about 'The dog shat in the tuckerbox nine miles
from Gundagai'.
And they even have  a bronze staue of said dog upon that box.
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hey, Críostóir!

> Ron wrote:
> "I spit now. I spit five minutes ago. I have spit many times in the past."
>
> Ugh! That middle one makes no grammatical sense whatsoever. It's a
> present tense pretending to be past. The third one looks a little odd the
> more I say it aloud, but the second one is simply, well, wrong.

Ha!  As I said, don't schiet any kloten at *me*, for I'm merely an innocent
bystander caught between grammatical giants!  But ... there's little in
grammar, even supposedly deviant grammar, that does not make sense one way
or another (as our Dan shows regarding "ate" above).

"Spit - spat - spat" follows the pattern of "sit - sat - sat," while "spit -
spit - spit" follows the pattern of "fit - fit - fit" and "hit - hit - hit."
So now what do you have to say, young man?

Servus, Dan!  So nice you're popping in (even though you are d-t-ing me)!
I've missed your illustrious presence.  Thanks for explaining that [at]
thing.  It makes sense.  I suppose there ought to be the orthographic
variant <at>.  This would make it easier to accept it, or would "visually
ligitimize" it.

Hello again, Tom!

> And in the Land of Oz as Ron can confirm.
> We even have an epic poem about 'The dog shat in the tuckerbox nine
> miles from Gundagai'.
> And they even have  a bronze staue of said dog upon that box.

Too right, mate!  It's another bit of high Australian culture the world
could never do without
(http://www.holidaysearch.com.au/articles/gundagai.htm), though some bloody
wowsers see fit to change the words to "The dog sat on the tuckerbox nine
miles from Gundagai."

> [x:rxgq.ph]

Was that you making that sound, Críostóir, or was it our Arthur's reaction
to this topic refusing to go away?

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 15:24:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:24:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.082438.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]

On 27/04/2005, at 5:56 AM, Thomas Byro <greenherring at gmail.com>
  wrote:

> I remember encountering horseradish
> occasionally in my lowlands childhood but it was not an important item
> in my family.  There are cultures though where large quantitities of
> horseradish are consumed

Hi Thomas et al,
horse radish sauce is a standard accompaniment to roast beef in the
British Isles and in Australia.
Seldom prepared from scratch alas it is usually a commercial product.
A very hot Japanese horse radish (Daikyo ?) sauce is now appearing in
sushi restaurants. My first wife thought it was avocado based guacamole
and ended in convulsions. Be warned.
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E]

On 27/04/2005, at 8:25 AM,  jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>  wrote:

Thanks for jogging my memory.
Last July I enjoyed the best coleslaw ever at Panser's deli in Toronto.
Horseradish was a major ingredient and I can never really enjoy
pastrami again after Panser's superb home made version.

> 3. Salad
> Very German-like! You have to open a tin of sour-krout and to peel and
> slice
> some fresh apples. Put it together, mix it, then add just a little
> bit! salt
> and sugar and some horseradish at last.
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]
>
> Hi, Tom,
>
> horseradish (I guess, horses shall never try it to eat!) is very famous in
> our region.
>
> In the famous cherry- and apple-region near Hamburg, called "Das Alte
> Land",
> people call it in their local LS: 'Myrrk", in G: 'Meerettich', in Austria
> 'Kren'..

Interesting.  The Russian word for horseradish is "khren" (хрен).  "Khren"
is also commonly used in Russian as a euphemism for another "kh-" word, the
slang term for a certain part of the male anatomy.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Guess what I say while stopping at a European deli on my way home last
night, Tom (Byro)!  Cans of herring in creamy horseraddish sauce, two German
brands!  I bet you can get them not only at German delis but at Russian ones
as well.  At least that's how it's at this side of the country.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 15:26:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:26:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.082607.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]

Hi, Tom,

horseradish (I guess, horses shall never try it to eat!) is very famous in
our region.<

OED  The 'horse' element means 'coarse' or 'rough' or 'large'  as in horse
chestnut  or  horse leech .    It doesn't explain why.

Whereas Partridge only makes a reference after 'horse chestnut' suggesting
that they might have been used as food or medicine for horses.

?????????????

OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse chestnut'  castanea equina
     Rosskastanie.

In any other languages too?
Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?

Heather

PS the only medicinal properties for the horse chestnut I know of are
connected with the bath gel Badadas whose adverts used to  promise the
prompt arrival of a dishy partner by helicopter outside one's bathroom, if
one indulged in such a product !

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 16:20:13 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:20:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.092013.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.26 (10) [E]


Ingmar wrote:
"By the way, when do we get an Irish (or Scottish) Gaelic version of the
Wren from you? Now, under Celtic, we only find the P-Celtic/Brittonic Welsh,
Breton and Cornish. I really miss Irish, Scottish and Manx..!"

Steady on, Ingmar! I'm still trying (and failing) to find time to write the
Nottingham English version!

Perhaps ár dTomás (Ó Cárthaigh) can jump in with the leathanach Ghaeilge?

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Dear Lowlanders,

Re: http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

Please don't even as much as think that the anniversary presentation is
finished and done with.  Oh, nooo!  This is just the beginning.  It keeps
evolving, and we are still expecting goodies from you and guests.  :-)  So,
please follow our Críostóir's example by sending in more translations, sound
files and personal introductions, which you may send to me
(sassisch at yahoo.com).

Also, there is now a sort of visitors' book:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=guests
It isn't an automatic one, just an archive for congratulatory messages.  So,
at the very least (or on top of other efforts, like Antero did) you might
want to leave a message there.  You can do so either by clicking on the
email link ("Send a Message") or by sending your message to
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net with the subject line "Lowlands-L Anniversary
Guestbook".

Our Henry is still working on sound files.  If you sent him a file or a
cassette tape you might want to write to him (henry.pijffers at saxnot.com) and
ask him if he got it.

I have already thanked the many contributors and collaborators for their
work on the project (listed at
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=colophon).  I want to
send a special thank-you to those that went way beyond the call, such as
Kenneth Rohde Christiansen, Ingmar Roerdinkholder, Mike Szelog (Mr. Wow!)
and Gary Taylor, besides Mathieu van Woerkom and Henry Pijffers.  You're
real gems, guys!

OK, folks, keep it coming, and hold fast!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 00:10:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:10:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.171007.0700.>

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From: Leslie Decker <leslie at volny.cz>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]

    Kevin Caldwell wrote:



    In the famous cherry- and apple-region near Hamburg, called "Das Alte
    Land",
    people call it in their local LS: 'Myrrk", in G: 'Meerettich', in
Austria
    'Kren'..


  Interesting. The Russian word for horseradish is "khren" (????). "Khren"
  is also commonly used in Russian as a euphemism for another "kh-" word,
the
  slang term for a certain part of the male anatomy.

  Kevin Caldwell


The Austrian version could be from the Czech chren or Slovak chren. Don't
think there're any double meanings there, but I could be wrong!

Leslie Decker

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dobrý den, Leslie!

> The Austrian version could be from the Czech chren or Slovak chren.

Don't you think the Bavarian version comes from Czech too, what with Bavaria
sharing a border with "Bohemia"?  Of course, it could have arrived by way of
Austria as well.

Na shledanou!
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]

Yes, Dutch has <paardekastanje> from <paard> horse and <kastanje> chestnut.
Btw, in the new spelling I guess that will be <paardeNkastanje>
Ingmar

>Heather:

>OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse chestnut'  castanea
>equina > Rosskastanie.
>
>In any other languages too?
>Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?

----------

From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]



>OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse chestnut'  castanea

>equina
>     Rosskastanie.
>
>In any other languages too?
>Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?
>
>Heather

Paardekastanje (probably paardenkastanje in the brand-new version of our
tussen-n rule) in Standard Dutch.
Also often called "wilde kastanje", as opposed to the "tame" = domesticated
= eatable, version, the "tamme kastanje"

Diederik Masure

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 00:11:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:11:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.27 (07) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.26 (12) [E]

Heather: "Stink   stank   stunk   is giving way to stink stunk  stunk"

Well, around these parts we have a word that emphasizes the stink.  I guess
it's a "new" linguistic phenomenon called "word leveling."  That would be
when one word is selected that comes to represent the entire range of
meanings.  So, here in Texas instead of saying "That stinks," we say, "That
stanks!"  Stank can be a noun or a verb of any tense, i.e., "Even when he
left his stank stayed behind" or "Be glad you weren't there, 'cause it stank
somethin' awful" or "No, I'm not going in there 'cause it will stank to high
heaven."  We even have the continuing tense as in, "He be stankin'."

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 00:14:27 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:14:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.171427.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]

Hello,

Does anyone have a recipe for "onion brick".
(I do not mean onion rings, but a hard cube about 2" x 2" x 4" of brown
crispy onion, tightely baked together.)

I once got it as (voluminous) apetizer in a restaurant in Evanston (North of
Chiocago) when participating at an exchange program with the Northwestern,
but I never found it somewhere else afterwards.

Thanks ahead for all leads,

Regards,

Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 00:19:57 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:19:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.171957.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]


Criostóir wrote: "Steady on, Ingmar! I'm still trying (and failing) to find
time to write the
Nottingham English version!"

Ey up!! ya talk Notts?

Paul

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 05:29:25 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:29:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.222925.0700.>

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (08) [E]

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]
>
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone have a recipe for "onion brick".
> (I do not mean onion rings, but a hard cube about 2" x 2" x 4" of brown
> crispy onion, tightely baked together.)
>
> I once got it as (voluminous) apetizer in a restaurant in Evanston (North
> of
> Chiocago) when participating at an exchange program with the Northwestern,
> but I never found it somewhere else afterwards.
>
> Thanks ahead for all leads,

Don't know about a baked version.  Here in the Washington, DC, area, there's
a barbecue chain called "Red, Hot & Blue" that serves something called an
onion loaf, which is basically sliced onions dipped in batter, then packed
into a fryer basket and deep fried.  It comes out in a block about 3" x 3" x
8", or whatever the dimensions of a fryer basket are.  Greasy and very bad
for you, and therefore incredibly delicious!

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (08) [E]

Reply for Roger Thijs regarding the onion brick.
Hey Roger, that sounds surprisingly much like Rosti ( Dang there is no
umlaut for the o in this format), the Swiss delicacy of fried potato cake.
I have never tried to make onion cake, but I bet you can make it by
frying sliced onions in a bit of oil or butter until still soft but
browning.
Then add a little bit of potato starch and some salt in a small amount
of water mix well and pack the onions in a baking form.
Put in the oven at 35O F for 30' or so and it should be ready.
I'll have to try that one of these days. I am getting hungry. Jacqueline

----------

From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]


Hi all,
Horse/ coarse to distinguish it from edible. Horseradish from Radish, Horse
Chestnut from Chestnut etc.
In the States, it's thought that horseradish is a corrupted translation of
the German "meerrettich" meer-mare-horse. At least that was what the
instructor of a cooking class stated that I attended a long time ago. Around
Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania, some old timers have different names
for the plant - poke-radish, pikelsprout, and my favorite "burp-weed".
There was also a company there some 30 or 40 years ago that produced
horseradish with a label that had a rather rotund Germanic looking fellow
smiling benignly underneath the words "German Mustard".
If anyone is interested, email me for vegetarian horseradish recipes.
Larry

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

So we're still salivating, are we, even *after* dinner time?  All righty
then.

Kevin, that onion loaf, though different in shape, reminds me of those
Australian onion flowers that have been quite the craze here in the US for a
while (at fun fairs and at the Outback Steakhouse chain -- which I nearly
spoonerized into "Steakback Outhouse" just now ...).  It's a whole onion
somehow cut so it comes out looking like a giant flower when you deepfry it.
It's equally greasy and very bad for you.

Larry:

> poke-radish, pikelsprout, and my favorite "burp-weed".

Nice!  Actually, I eat radish greens (and turnip greens) sautéed (both
Western- and "Asian"-style).  Try it!  It's delish.

"Poke-radish" reminds me of "pokeweed," a real American, Southern, thing to
eat, pretty much unknown to most Northerners.  Do you know it, dear
Americans of the Southern persuation?  It's an American native, _Phytolacca
americana_:
(http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ecoph24.htm
http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/StratfordLandingES/Ecology/mpages/pokeweed.htm
I've eaten it fresh and found it rather palatable, although I find that
Southerners overcook vegetables just as much as traditional cooks do on the
European Lowlands.  I've found pokeweed canned up here in the north (in
African America delis), but I find it rather slimy and yucky, like pretty
much all canned greens.  Being married to a descendant of Alabamans of part
Choctaw, Creek and African slave descent, I get to try all sorts of
delicacies that started off as the food of those that lived off the land and
off rich folks scraps, and I find much of Southern cooking rather similar to
Lowlands cooking.  I'm now quite fond of collard greens (Brassica oleracea
var. acephala), a sort that arrived here with the slave trade from Western
Africa.

Larry again:

> If anyone is interested, email me for vegetarian horseradish recipes.

Et tu, Laurentius?

If anyone is interested in North German recipes and wants to practise
reading Low Saxon side-by-side with English, you might like to check out
this the recipe section here:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/

(And, everyone who remembers her, Tant Clara, now nearing her 86th birthday,
her husband having his 87th next week, is still kicking and writing her
newspaper column, and she narrated her Olland Low Saxon translation for our
anniversary site, very nicely I think, very much true to herself -- bless
her.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 07:28:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:28:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.002814.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]


That almost sounds like the "bloomin onion" at the Outback Steakhouse
restaurants.

----------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E ... and a smidge of Japanese]

R/R wrote:
> Personally, I prefer the Japanese variant: 山葵 _wasabi_ (_Wasabia
> japonica_),
> especially when it "shoots out the nose," as I call it ... Ouch! Yeah!
> Goood!

Yes, but those of you across the sea who can only get it in little tubes,
don't know the REAL heavenly pleasures of grinding fresh wasabi with a
little wooden pestle () in little Japanese-style mortar with a little salt
to go with your zaru-soba (さるそば cold hand-rolled buckwheat noodles) or, as
my Deaf friends all say (and sign) "saru-soba" (ざるそば lit. "Monkey" buckwheat
noodles). 美味しい (sorry, the best translation is just the sound of cold
noodles being noisily slurped on a hot day ... and I don't think my IPA font
has the necessary characters for that.)

Though, when I really need a quick fix, straight from the tube is okay too.
(Okay, I have been know to "snoepen" on Sambal Badjak and try to keep my
fridge stocked with (preferably, Bihari) Mango and Lime pickles for the not
so occassional attack of the munchies. ... )

Too bad I've already had lunch.

Mike Morgan
茂流岸
KCUFS

Osaka, JAPAN

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Ben (above):

> "bloomin onion" ...

Bingo!  That's it.  I had forgotten the proper name.  Thanks.

MM (above):

Yes, but those of you across the sea who can only get it in little tubes,
don't know the REAL heavenly pleasures of grinding fresh wasabi with a
little wooden pestle

Hah! The world has changed, certainly at this coast at which Orient and
Occident hold each other by the other hand.  Not only do I know the delight
from (and got hooked on it in) Japan, but I can easily get fresh wasabi here
in Seattle (e.g., at Uwajimaya, a large Japanese supermarket) and also in
the Bay Area where I will end up one of these days.  OK, so they don't carry
it *every* day, but, hey, that's good enough for me.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 07:31:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:31:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.003109.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (06) [E]

Hello:

Conc. chestnut - a small note:

Be aware that the eatable chestnut was a local in the lowlands districts ab.
2000 years ago and the 'horse chestnut' has been imported from the north of
Greece through Europe since 16th century on. These two trees are no family,
only their fruits look alike, and so they got their names.
-------------------------------------
> >Heather:
>
> >OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse
> chestnut'  castanea
> >equina > Rosskastanie.
> >
> >In any other languages too?
> >Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?
>
> ----------
>
> From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]
>
>
>
> >OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse
> chestnut'  castanea
>
> >equina
> >     Rosskastanie.
> >
> >In any other languages too?
> >Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?
> >
> >Heather

> Also often called "wilde kastanje", as opposed to
> the "tame" = domesticated
> = eatable, version, the "tamme kastanje"
>
> Diederik Masure

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 08:00:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 01:00:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.28 (03) [E/MiddleEnglish]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.010031.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Aihwareiks/Anniver-sarai

Leewe Leyglanners,

Just a short message of recognition to our Raginhard/Ron for his
Australian/Turkish poetry, among other things:

On ultra-short notice, he also wrote a memorable poem in Middle English. It
revealed a polished craft coupled with a great and powerful muse.

Ron, sometimes you come dangerously close to achieving the Renaissance
ideal: Seized of great inspiration and the ability to carry out the amazing
visions it generates. The Elisabethan (or pre-Elisabethan) poem, composed at
least a little bit in response to my words
about

"alone...on a plain...",

suggested a genius akin to that of the train called the Panama Limited: I
can only stand by the tracks with my hat in my hand.

The day before, you summoned and then juxtaposed the Australian with the
Turkish voices of the fallen.

I thought for a moment I heard their voices almost together, as in a chorus
of anguish and of warning.
Bless you, friend.

You have also written in Gothic and made it stand up and sing like a true
predecessor of the courtly world of the High Middle Ages. And I think you
are right.

Shakespeare noted that lunatics, lovers and poets give us, in their fervor,
the universe compacted into a few words. You are surely all three. As one
who can only peer through the windows of genius --and damned happy to be a
voyeur of that process-- I thank you.

Best regards,

Arthur

Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

To Arthur yn respons:

   A, Cher Monsor! With Eure bonayre leue
   Schall I bi-soken fram Eur' heriynges repreue.
   For Eu, a ient-man of heigh engyn Eure seoluen,
   Awt na thos frely in to houris bokes deluen
   And gar myn leores forthen tornen rede
   For a seily pea-gooses pur doggerelles dede.
   Ac, yis, cher sibbe saull, Eur' felyng fere is keyn,
   For Eu han thurch myn bourd myn trew saull seyn.

Glossary:
   awt na: ought not
   bi-soken: beseech, seek, request, beg
   bokes: books
   bonayre: kind, gentle
   bourd: jest, fun, prank, tomfoolery
   cher: dear
   dede: deed, act
   deluen: delve
   doggerell: doggerel, silly scribble
   engyn: understanding, craft, device, engine
   eu: you
   eure, eur': your
   felyng: feeling
   fere: ability
   forthen: even
   fram: from
   frely: freely, generously, readily
   gar: cause, make
   han: have
   heigh: high
   heriynge: praise
   houris: orisons, songs of praise
   ient-man: gentleman
   keyn: keen, sharp
   leor: cheek, face
   leue: leave, permission
   monsor: monsieur, sir
   myn: my
   pea-goose: simple, doltish fellow
   pur: pure, mere
   rede: red
   repreue: reprieve
   saull: soul
   schall: shall
   seily: simple, silly
   seoluen: self, selves
   (y-)seyn: seen
   sibbe: related, kindred
   thos: thus, so
   thurch: through
   tornen: turn
   trew: true
   yis: yes

***

The thessayd rhyme improued:

Rethorye for the Nones of Oure Xth Anniversayre

de Raginhard Hawne
   ~ Aussy largement connu comme
   Le Troubadour Humilyant de la Saxe Vraye ~

   ~ avec un glossarium adjouté pour l'advantage du novice ~
___

   OU'R THWART THE PLEYNE

   A rerd, a rowste, a ron by hym soleyne
   Y-sungen as a pleynt apon the vaste pleyne
   Was y-hyer'd fer pleyn among the wolues-bonds
   And wolues-heeds y-spercled thurgh the londs,
   A medlee floc floc-mele gaderyng
   Fram fele plages sechyng faderyng,
   There rynges lederes stark, fayre hond
   To leden thwart there wong, there Laghelond,
   There ogen soken, ogen sayntuarye
   Ful murth and fele maner maysterye.
   Ten yeres prollyd they ou'r thwart the pleyne
   Carolyng rons nou samen, nan soleyne.
   There tonges and telynges owyng rounes vaste
   And tresores to whilk hy holden stedfast' faste.
   Grand mercy, thos, to sownes y-caryed fer
   Y-hyer'd with opyn ers, y-holdyn cher!

Glossary:

   anniversayre: anniversary
   bond: band
   caroling: dancing in a round, singing
   cher: dear
   er: ear
   faderyng: fathering
   faste: fast, tight
   fayre: fair, kindly
   fele: many, much
   fer: far; quite
   floc: flock, group, crowd
   floc-mele: in crowds
   fram: from
   ful: full
   gaderen: to gather
   grande mercy: many thanks
   holden: (to) hold
   hond: hand
   hy: they
   hym: him
   laghe: low
   leden: to lead
   leder: leader
   lond: land
   maner: manner, sort, kind
   maysterye: mastery, success, skill
   medlee: many-colored, diverse
   murth: mirth
   nan: none, not, no
   nones: occasion
   nou: now
   ogen: own
   opyn: open
   ou'r thwart: all across, all over
   owyng: owning, having
   plage: shore, land, country
   pleyn: plain(ly), clear(ly)
   pleyne: plain
   pleynt: plaint
   prollyd: prowled, roamed in search
   rerd: voice, sound
   retorye: oration
   ron: song
   roune: rune, mystery
   rowste: voice
   ryng: round dance, round
   samen: together
   sayntuarye: sanctuary
   seche: seek
   soken: territory, precinct, shire
   soleyne: solitary, alone
   sowne: sound
   stark: strong
   stedfast(e): steadfast(ly)
   telynge: practice of magic, study, culture
   there: their
   thos: thus, therefore
   thurgh: through(out)
   thwart: across
   tonge: tongue, language
   tresor: treasure
   whilk: which
   wolues-heed: wolve's head, outlaw
   wong: meadow land, plain, territory
   y-caryed: carried
   yeres: years
   y-holdyn: held
   y-hyered: heard
   y-spercled: scattered
   y-sungen: sung

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 14:35:04 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:35:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.073504.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.27 (07) [E]


Mark Brooks wrote:
"So, here in Texas instead of saying "That stinks," we say, "That
stanks!" Stank can be a noun or a verb of any tense, i.e., "Even when he
left his stank stayed behind" or "Be glad you weren't there, 'cause it stank
somethin' awful" or "No, I'm not going in there 'cause it will stank to high
heaven." We even have the continuing tense as in, "He be stankin'.""

Cornish English has always had _staankin_ for standard English _stinking_
and the phrase "That stinks" would in Cornish English (West Cornwall) always
be "E's staankin, ee is".

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

---------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.26 (12) [E ... or at least American]


Since R/R, with regard to the unforgivable debasing of  the shitting and
spitting paradigm, stated:

> Don't blame *me* though!  I plead innocence in all of this.

And since it might go on and on forever with denials and
counter-allegations, like a Washington soap-opera, I'll fess up. I plead
guilty; I did it; blame me!

Though sometimes I do conjugate: shit-shat-shut ... particularly during
bouts of constipation. :-)

MWM
KCUFS

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 14:36:56 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:36:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.073656.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (09) [E]


Paul Finlow-Bates
"Ey up!! ya talk Notts?"

Ey up, yoth! Ah doew. It's mi fost language, ah tok thuh Lon Eaton vozhun.
Worrabaat yusen?

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 15:28:43 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:28:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.082843.0700.>

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From: Dave Singleton <davidsin at pt.lu>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 () [E]

Hello Roger,

Could this be the same sort of thing as Onion Bhaji from Indian
restaurants in UK/Europe ?

Dave Singleton

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]
>
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone have a recipe for "onion brick".
> (I do not mean onion rings, but a hard cube about 2" x 2" x 4" of brown
> crispy onion, tightely baked together.)
>
> I once got it as (voluminous) apetizer in a restaurant in Evanston (North
> of
> Chiocago) when participating at an exchange program with the Northwestern,
> but I never found it somewhere else afterwards.
>
> Thanks ahead for all leads,
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger

----------

From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (01) [E]


Hey,
Well you don't have to go to the Oriental market anymore, there is an
American grower,who according to an old Wall Street Journal article, used to
export most of his product TO Japan.
Great, fantastic, four Kleenex stuff.

Don't mean to plug anyone but it IS that good.

http://www.freshwasabi.com/

Wasabi smashed potatoes, wasabi infused greens that you just have to mop up
the pot likker with cornbread (come to think of it wasabi and chili
cornbread is pretty good too), green corn and wasabi tamales. Yum.

§Ron§ yup had poke, and the like, don't forget W.PA. cooking is just like
W.VA. and VA. cooking. Just under a different flag s'all.  After having
hoofed around Europe here for a while,  it seems to me that most blue collar
peoples of whatever nationality share pretty much the same way about doing
things. Not a true vegetarian, still eat meat Ron. However, being Orthodox
Christian and follow the different fasts, you do learn to eat and be
creative about cooking vegetarian/vegan. Might be a little baaaaaaaaa-d of
me, getting a little wooly and going out on a lamb, but really looking
forward to Easter this weekend.
Larry,
Sometimes Vegan, but always a Chili-horseradish-wasabi head.

--------------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]

Ron:  "Do you know it, dear Americans of the Southern persuation?"

Yes, I've heard of it, but gratefully never had to eat it.  Both of my
parents come from Tennessee and were familiar with it as poke salad.  In
fact there was a popular song from the late 60's early 70's called "Poke
Salad Annie."  I'm not a fan of turnip greens or any of that stuff.  I like
spinach, but the greens are just too bitter.  It probably comes from
traumatic experiences in my childhood as a preacher's kid.  The members of
the church paid the pastor so little that they often felt obligated to give
us food from their garden.  One man grew enough turnip greens each year to
make the Jesus and the loaves stories look like nothing but chips and salsa.
I mean this guy could grow some turnip greens!  So, every few days he would
bring us grocery bags full of them.  That's the old brown paper sacks that
would hold nigh on a bushel!  Well, maybe a little exaggeration there, but
it was way too much for this Southern boy.  I have come to despise turnip
greens.  The only time I found them good at all was a few years ago when an
African-American woman cooked some for a lunch party at the office.  She
told me that I would like them if I had them cooked right.  Well, they WERE
good, but truthfully little squares of cardboard would have tasted good the
way she cooked them.  Butter, and salt, and butter, and salt, and who knows
what else.  They had to have an ambulance on stand-by for any sudden heart
attacks.  No, not really, but they couldn't have been good for the heart.
Maybe someone else will have fonder memories of poke salad and turnip
greens.

Mark Brooks

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Hey, guys!

Larry:

> Not a true vegetarian, still eat meat Ron. However, being Orthodox
> Christian and follow the different fasts, you do learn to eat and be
> creative about cooking vegetarian/vegan.

Yeah, I should have made that connection.  In fact, some of my favorite
vegetarian recipes came from Orthodox friends.

> Sometimes Vegan, but always a Chili-horseradish-wasabi head.

Deal.  I'll visit you during lent then.  ;-)

Anyway, happy Easter to you and all other Eastern Orthodox Lowlanders!

Mark:

> Well, they WERE
> good, but truthfully little squares of cardboard would have tasted good
> the
> way she cooked them.  Butter, and salt, and butter, and salt, and who
> knows
> what else.

Hamhocks, no doubt, if not also pigs' snouts ...

> I like
> spinach, but the greens are just too bitter.

The more bitter the better for me, which is why my favorite greens are
mustard greens, all kinds, also the Chinese kinds.  And one of my favorites
is bitter squash (or bitter melon or balsam pear, _Momordica charantia_,
Tagalog _ampalaya_, Chinese 苦瓜 _kugua_, _fugua_, Japanese 二が瓜 _nigauri_,
_karela_ in parts of India,
http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/Hort/Fmrs/Asian_veg/bitter.htm) used widely
throughout Asia, reputedly a real wonder drug as well, especially for people
with heart ailments, for diabetics and for sufferers of HIV/AIDS
(http://www.raintree-health.co.uk/cgi-bin/getpage.pl?/plants/bitmelon.html).
If you think greens are bitter, I wonder what you'd say about these.  They
grow on you, especially cooked up with tomato.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 18:38:44 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:38:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.113844.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (06) [E]


Okay, now I'm really upset. Every time I find something that let's me feel "
Japondayım, ne mutlu"*, the feeling gets shot down. Next you're going to
tell me that the 生山葵 (fresh raw Japanese horseradish) in your oriental
grocer's doesn't cost an arm and a leg a shoot (the going price here at my
local supermarket, last I looked). Or that you can get "Seattle's Best"
(coffee that is) there, too. I really AM running out of reasons (excuses?)
for staying here. Please tell me you can't get 山牛蒡巻き寿司 (mountain burdock
roll sushi) at your local 回転寿司屋さん (the kind of sushi bar where the sushi
plates go round and round until they are three days old or fall off the
conveyor belt ... I forget what you/we/they call such places in English)! I
really WILL have to leave then.

Not, of course that I will go to the US of A when I do leave this place, if
and when I leave (I was just informed today that my credit card was refused
... again, the second time in a year, both times thanks to the so-called
"Patriot Act". Though both times I WAS trying to do business with arch
enemies both of the US and democracy in general: to wit, France
(amazon.com.fr) and Turkey (Pandora Kitabevi). Yes, I WAS engaged in that
most terrorist of acts: buying books!)

Anyway, all this talk of Southern cooking makes ME (a not so Southern Boy)
miss mustard AND turnip AND collard greens, and grits, and some good
whitemeal cornbread** ... like mom used to make. (Mom is from Ferrum, a
stone's throw from Rocky Mount, itself a stone's throw from Roanoke (IF you
have a real good arm!) in western Virginia. Dad's a northerner ... from the
big town of Davy, West Virginia just north across the border.  Went to high
school in Welch (as in Welsh, as in Morgan ...) Coal mining country (or was
anyway) ... and quondam home to the world's longest flower box). Haven't had
any of them in several years ... 懐かしい! (Japanese expression of nostalgia.)

Mike Morgan
KCUFS

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it (fresh wasabi) was cheaper there,
EVEN if it were imported from Japan. When I first started studying Japanese
(many moons ago) I found that it was cheaper to buy the books (written and
published here in Japan) when I managed to find my way to the Kinokuniya
bookstore ... in San Francisco.

* For those not steeped in Anatolian Turkish language, culture  and history,
this is my version of Atatürk's "Türküm diye, ne mutlu" ("How happy to say
"I am a Turk!"). I can remember my son coming home from the creche at the
university where we taught practicing these words so many years ago.
Somehow, like MOST of my (many) Kırmanc and (fewer) Zaza friends (and one
good friend who was a second generation Syrian-Turk and an Alevi .. a double
whammy!), he eventually learned to not be too sad that he wasn't ...

** A long time ago, before even I was born, my folks lived in Washington
Sate (Tacoma, not Seattle), where my older brother was born. My mom's story
goes that soon after they moved in she went to the local grocer's and when
she couldn't find it, she asked the grocer where the white cornmeal was. His
response: "That's damn n.gg.r's food!" My mom's response: never go into that
store again. Having grown up eating white cornmeal and playing and going to
church (Baptist) with "n.gg.rs" ALL her childhood, she was offended. And
maybe a little ashamed for the grocer. As you say, Ron, things DO change.
Hopefully and Thank god!

P.S. Here in Japan, it's just the start of Golden Week; now maybe THAT's a
reason to be glad I'm here! Seven days until my next class! Maybe I will
even have time to get around to my Lowlands-List anniversary contribution!
(And JR West time to finish cleaning up after the big train crash in
Amagasaki, about 25 minutes from here, that killed 102 ... and counting.
Including a friend of a friend.)

And, I was too busy at the time to remember, but a Happy New Year (Nepali
New Year: Vikram Era 2062, Newari New Year: Nepal Sambat 1125) to all!

           तपाईंहरुको नयाँ वर्ष शुभ होस!

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (06) [E]

> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]
>
> Ron:  "Do you know it, dear Americans of the Southern persuation?"
>
> Yes, I've heard of it, but gratefully never had to eat it.  Both of my
> parents come from Tennessee and were familiar with it as poke salad.  In
> fact there was a popular song from the late 60's early 70's called "Poke
> Salad Annie."  I'm not a fan of turnip greens or any of that stuff.  I
> like
> spinach, but the greens are just too bitter.  It probably comes from
> traumatic experiences in my childhood as a preacher's kid.  The members of
> the church paid the pastor so little that they often felt obligated to
> give
> us food from their garden.  One man grew enough turnip greens each year to
> make the Jesus and the loaves stories look like nothing but chips and
> salsa.
> I mean this guy could grow some turnip greens!  So, every few days he
> would
> bring us grocery bags full of them.  That's the old brown paper sacks that
> would hold nigh on a bushel!  Well, maybe a little exaggeration there, but
> it was way too much for this Southern boy.  I have come to despise turnip
> greens.  The only time I found them good at all was a few years ago when
> an
> African-American woman cooked some for a lunch party at the office.  She
> told me that I would like them if I had them cooked right.  Well, they
> WERE
> good, but truthfully little squares of cardboard would have tasted good
> the
> way she cooked them.  Butter, and salt, and butter, and salt, and who
> knows
> what else.  They had to have an ambulance on stand-by for any sudden heart
> attacks.  No, not really, but they couldn't have been good for the heart.
> Maybe someone else will have fonder memories of poke salad and turnip
> greens.
>
> Mark Brooks

As Ron said, she probably used hamhocks, or maybe fatback.  Bacon will also
do the trick.  Top off a serving with a dash of vinegar (better yet, pickle
juice!).  Turnip greens, mustard greens, collard greens... love 'em all.
Add a slice of country ham, some cornbread (no sugar in it, please) or
buttermilk biscuits, maybe some pinto beans or fried okra, and you've got a
good Southern meal.

Kevin Caldwell

--------------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Still a bit peckish, boys?

Mark:

> Next you're going to tell me that the 生山葵 (fresh raw Japanese horseradish)
> in your oriental grocer's doesn't cost an arm and a leg a shoot (the going
> price
> here at my local supermarket, last I looked).

It ain't cheap, cost just about a finger and a toe.

> Please tell me you can't get 山牛蒡巻き寿司 (mountain burdock roll sushi)

You can get it (for a couple of fingers and toes of course) once in a while,
at better restaurants.

> at
> your local 回転寿司屋さん (the kind of sushi bar where the sushi plates go
> round and round until they are three days old or fall off the conveyor
> belt ...
> I forget what you/we/they call such places in English)!

"Lazy Susan's Lair -- Lounge, Grill, Bar, Karaoke and Saturday Nights Lap
Dance"?

> As you say, Ron, things DO change. Hopefully and Thank god!

Oh, they have!  But of course, they could change some more.  Tacoma is very
diverse now, and Seattle has not only very large Chinese, a large Japanese
expat community (though not as large as that of Vancouver, B.C.), hence an
abundance of Japonicae, usually at lower prices than in Japan (many
vegetables being grown here, since the climate is very much like in Japan).
This includes a Kinokuniya Bookstore branch (one of my haunts) with a large
selection of Chinese books etc. on top (literally).  There is an abundance
of Zen halls -- Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Western and mixed, besides other
types of Buddhist places.  There are currently Golden Week displays, also at
a couple of the Buddhist temples, and other seasonal festival displays all
year round, as well as a Bon Odori mass street dancing and fair every June.
In San Francisco there's a Japantown with a nice basement restaurant haunt
decorated like an old-time town.  There are similar things in Los Angeles.
So, Mark, you wouldn't feel deprived on the West Coast.

And thanks for your help with the holidays, Mark.  You're hired.  I'm afraid
I set a precedence I can't keep up with.  ;-)

Hey, Kev!

> Top off a serving with a dash of vinegar (better yet, pickle juice!).
> Turnip
> greens, mustard greens, collard greens... love 'em all.  Add a slice of
> country ham, some cornbread (no sugar in it, please) or buttermilk
> biscuits,
> maybe some pinto beans or fried okra, and you've got a good Southern meal.

Now you're talking!  Total yummage!  I completely approve of your taste in
greens, and I share your opinion about cornbread as well.  It's always good
to find a kindred soul.

And not to forget blackeyed peas with a dash of Tobasco!  Oh, and green
fried tomatoes!

Non-Americans, note that blackeyed peas are not peas but beans
(cream-colored with a black dot) and that American biscuits are nothing like
biscuits (or "bickies") in your book (which are "cookies" here) but are a
bit more like spoonbread, often eaten with gravy.  "Go figure," as they say.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 19:59:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:59:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.28 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.125938.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: Blue Ridge Institute Site [E]


Oh, as I often do, I forgot to even say what it was that go me started off
talking about where my mother was from, etc.

As I said, she's from Ferrum, VA, which is home to Ferrum Junior College (or
it used to be Junior, a long time ago, and it's where my folks met). Anyway,
they are now host to the Blue Ridge Institute, specializing in Appalachian
culture, and a Folklife Festival in the autumn. And their online site is
located at:

http://www.blueridgeinstitute.org/

I haven't looked at it for some time (unitl I just remembered about it as I
was starting my "Delectables" email about mustard and collard greens), but a
quick glance shows that they currently have an online exhibition with some
downloadable music (about 12 songs with lyrics and Real Audio downloadable
files, and an equal number with just lyrics). Haven't downloaded any of them
yet (but plan to), so I don't know how "down-home" it is, but I'm sure some
of you, like me, would enjoy a gander and a listen to.


MWMorgan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 20:18:33 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:18:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.28 (09) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.131833.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (07) [E/LS]

Hi, Reinhard,

you translate our (Frankish-influenced, obviously) 'Ackermännchen' into
'[little] husbandman'. The origin, for my opinion, is the way these little
birds are following a plough and picking up all those delicious things,
thrown and digged up for their special pleasure- somehow a more direct
relation to 'acre', freshly ploughed land.
I could watch  them doing this at many occasions.

'Husbandman' to me seems to be too far away from the original reason for
this name. Could you agree, or is there no better way to describe it in
current English?

These birds, by the way, always have been my special favorites, and the
yellow type is called G: 'Schafstelze', because they often follow a
herd/group of sheep to pick up beetles, worms and flying insects who appear
in the special neighbourhood of sheep.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen, Jonny!

> 'Husbandman' to me seems to be too far away from the original reason for
> this name.

Actually, "husbandman" is the classical, standard equivalent of German
_Ackermann_, as in the Grimm's dictionary:

<quote_

 ACKERMANN, m. agricola, rusticus, ahd. acharman, acharbigengo, ags.
äcermon, äcerceorl, altn. akrmaðr, schw. åkerman, nnl. akkerman; in der
volkssprache ackersmann, ein mann des ackers. wird auch für das kraut acorus
calamus und einen käfer, scarabaeus agricola, tenebrio agricola, vermutlich
weil er in der erde wühlt, gebraucht.
ACKERMÄNNCHEN, n. motacilla, die auch in Frankreich hin und wieder semeur,
säemann, in Schweden sädesärla, plogärla, altn. erla heiszt, laboriosa, von
erja arare, laborare, schw. ärja. die volkssage verglich wol die rührige
bewegung des schwanzes bei diesem vogel dem pflügen.

</quote>

However, I think what you have in mind is something like "gleaner" (< < Old
French _glenere_ > _glaneur_), related to "to glean" (< Old French _glener_
~ _glainer_ > _glaner_) 'to pick left-overs after harvest'.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 21:22:57 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:22:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.28 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.142257.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]


Well, Leicester achly. Bit more saath, burra doont sahnd too diffrent. Live
in Notts nah.

Paul

----------

From: Clarkedavid8 at aol.com <Clarkedavid8 at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]

Go on - I bet your mother didnt talk to you like that.

david clarke

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 21:25:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:25:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.28 (11) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.142531.0700.>

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From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.28 (08) [E]


Near's ah kin reckin, yor folks hailed fom but two cahnties 'n a few hollers
fom mahn.  'N thet old-timey music's down-home sure.

Thanks for steering me on to it, Mike.....happy listening!

Marsha

Off topic P.S. to  Ron - try horseradish, a little sour cream and a dash of
salt and pepper on fresh corn kernals - YUM!  Also good mixed into tuna
salad.
  From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
  Subject: Blue Ridge Institute Site [E]

  Oh, as I often do, I forgot to even say what it was that go me started off
  talking about where my mother was from, etc.

  As I said, she's from Ferrum, VA, which is home to Ferrum Junior College
(or
  it used to be Junior, a long time ago, and it's where my folks met).
Anyway,
  they are now host to the Blue Ridge Institute, specializing in Appalachian
  culture, and a Folklife Festival in the autumn. And their online site is
  located at:

  http://www.blueridgeinstituteorg/

  I haven't looked at it for some time (unitl I just remembered about it as
I
  was starting my "Delectables" email about mustard and collard greens), but
a
  quick glance shows that they currently have an online exhibition with some
  downloadable music (about 12 songs with lyrics and Real Audio downloadable
  files, and an equal number with just lyrics). Haven't downloaded any of
them
  yet (but plan to), so I don't know how "down-home" it is, but I'm sure
some
  of you, like me, would enjoy a gander and a listen to.

  MWMorgan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 00:14:35 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:14:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.28 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.171435.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]

Thanks for your thanks, Reinhard. De nada, com muito prazer.

About this A-site's motto <hold fast!>, wasn't that <hold vast> with a <v>
at first, or am I mistaken? Another thing: I don't want to spoil it, but
I saw some TV documentaries about the Netherlands in WW II, e.a about the
NSB, the Dutch political party that collaborated with the Nazi occupiers.
Their slogan <hou zee!>(or <houzee>?)" reminded me a bit of <hold fast!>,
the same rhythm, same number of words, I don't know... I just hope that no
outsiders will associate the A-site's motto with something like that,
especially none that would approve with such a resemblance. Anyway,
of course they would soon find out how tolerant and multicultural we are.

Ingmar

btw: with the language samples, can Interlingua still be under Romance and
Middelsprake under Germanic, too? Next to constructed, I mean

>Reinhard wrote:
>I have already thanked the many contributors and collaborators for their
>work on the project (listed at
>http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=colophon).  I want to
>send a special thank-you to those that went way beyond the call, such as
>Kenneth Rohde Christiansen, Ingmar Roerdinkholder, Mike Szelog (Mr. Wow!)
>and Gary Taylor, besides Mathieu van Woerkom and Henry Pijffers.  You're
>real gems, guys!
>
>OK, folks, keep it coming, and hold fast!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Moyen, Ingmar!

> About this A-site's motto <hold fast!>, wasn't that <hold vast> with a <v>
> at first, or am I mistaken?

The latter.  The <f> version is the only one understood throughout the
"territory,"  _ook güntsyds den Kanaal un dat Grote Water_.

> Their slogan <hou zee!>(or <houzee>?)" reminded me a bit of <hold fast!>,
> the same rhythm, same number of words, I don't know... I just hope that no
> outsiders will associate the A-site's motto with something like that,
> especially none that would approve with such a resemblance. Anyway,
> of course they would soon find out how tolerant and multicultural we are.

Oh, thanks for telling me now, after I created all them lovely buttons!  ;-)
Anyway, I hardly think the association is that strong.  Or am I deluded?

> btw: with the language samples, can Interlingua still be under Romance and
> Middelsprake under Germanic, too? Next to constructed, I mean

All righty then, since you've been so helpful.  It's done, and this applies
to James' Jameld version also.

Thanks again!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 03:13:18 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:13:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.28 (13) [E]
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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: Culture

Some of you may find this new website developed by 'The Scotsman' of
interest.

This month scotsman.com introduced a website that is a direct response to
your feedback. It offers our global readership a living, breathing picture
of Scotland's history. The site includes a range of categories - Great
Scots, Historic Places, Traditions & Culture, and the already popular Myths
& Mysteries.
Take a minute (or several minutes) to look at the site. We pull out our
scorebook and rate some of the wilder myths of Scotland. An expert on the
life and times of Bonnie Prince Charlie offers up a colourful and accurate
tale into the many women who touched his life. And the man behind Scotland's
application for World Heritage status of a Roman relic gives us a historic
account of the country's very own "great wall".
Scottish Heritage and Culture presents a daily dose of lively news and
features, interactive maps and video, as well as a robust list of cultural
events in Scotland. This newsletter, distributed free to those who sign up,
is part of that experience. It was delivered to all scotsman.com readers as
our way of saying hello and offering you the opportunity to experience an
online voyage through Scotland's vibrant heritage and culture.

This week we will take you on a tour of Inch Kenneth. The tiny and desolate
western isle was once the home of Unity Mitford, a Nazi sympathiser whose
fascination for Adolf Hitler led to her attempting suicide. We look inside
the former Mitford home where, more than 50 years after her death, the rooms
look eerily the same.
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 04:18:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:18:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.211838.0700.>

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From: Thomas Byro <greenherring at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (07) [E]

To Mike Morgan and Ron:

My last wife ran a herb/organic vegetable shop in Pennsylvania.  To
meet demand, I would dig up burdock roots but the labor was so intense
that I never want to repeat the experience.  I would also gather up
wild poke shoots, which are a favorite spring tonic among the Amish.
They inform me that they taste like asparagus.

My childhood girlfriend's family in Espelkamp in Westphalia made
something that they called "milk soup".  I am embarassed to admit that
I used to enjoy something so humdrum.  As memory serves me, it seemed
to be sweetened boiled milk with clamshell type pasta.  Does anyone
have a recipe?

Tom Byro

----------

From: waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (07) [E]

Hai Mike and Ron,
I  have read your postings on "山葵” very interesting. At home we use
mostly "wasasbi tube", when we eat "マグロ　とろ” and other sashimi. Raw
fresh "山葵”、we can get at any supermarket or grocery. I havbe never
thought that I could read some on "山葵”here in this discussion.

Regards,

Yasuji

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Hi, Tom!

When I was a kid in Hamburg (and times were leaner then), we youngsters
would regularly eat "milk soup" (German _Milchsuppe_, Missingsch
_Meejchsubbe_, Low Saxon _melksup_ <Melksupp>) for supper, all of them based
on sweetened milk.  The most typical one was with semolina, sometimes with
rice (and sugar and cinnamon), more times with oatmeal (G.
_Haferflockensuppe_).  My favorite was what in Missingsch we called
_Schogolådensubbe_ "chocolate soup," cocao added to the semolina type, I
think.  We did not know the type you mentioned.  In the summertime, a
special treat was "sour milk" (G. _saure Milch_ ~ _Sauermilch_, M. _saure
Meejch_, LS _sure melk_ ~ _suurmelk_), i.e.,  milk left to stand in the open
to separate, go chunky and sour, then sprinkled with sugar, simetimes
berries or chunks of fruit ... and eaten of course.  (I know it sounds
disgusting, but it actually tastes quite good, yoghurty, buttermilky and
refreshing.)  Irish and English friends told me that that's what they had as
children too.  This was when milk was still full-fat and not pasteurized.

Yasuji:

> I havbe never
> thought that I could read some on "山葵”here in this discussion.

Well, sushi has taken the world by storm, to a lesser degree sashimi (raw
fish without rice), and with them came wasabi.  It has also "invaded" the
Lowlands  (although many people are still too scared to try it, especially
in the _kruysch_ "picky" European Lowlands).  Here in North America it's now
gone beyond being just "chic" food (which it currently is among the
flamboyant nouveau riche population of Moscow).  Sushi, teriyaki (Japanese
grill) and also ramen (a type of Japanese noodle soup derived from Northern
Chinese 拉麵 _lamian_ "pulled noodles"  -- originally made by hand) have
become staples in many North American circles (ramen mostly as poor people's
food).  Wasabi has taken on a life of its own by being added to things other
than traditional Japanese foods -- for instance as a coating for various
nuts and crackers.  I recently talked with some "kids" in California that
did not even know that sushi is not originally American food ...

Especially sashimi is my weakness.  You give it to me, along with some miso
soup, and I instantly revert to being a carnivore ...  (Japanese cuisine may
be difficult to get used to for many, but once you're used to it you're
hooked on it for the rest of your life.)

Similarly, tofu (bean curd, which is also used in Chinese, Korean and
Vietnamese cooking) has been around for about 40 years and is now a real
staple food here, not only in my home.  (I know about fourteen bezillion
ways of making it tasty.)  You get all of this in ordinary American grocery
stores now.  When I go to local Asian grocery stores, there are many, many
non-Asians buying very specific Japanese, Chinese and Korean foods.  They
are definitely not novices, know exactly what they want.  You would be
surprised to see it.  Of course, this is typical of the West Coast from
Vancouver to San Diego, less so in much of the rest of Canada and the US.

In actual fact, East Asian influences on the American westcoast and on
Australia -- and of course particularly on Hawai'i -- are so strong now that
it could be a vast discussion topic on its own.  In Hawai'i this includes
strong linguistic influences on English.  Since this East Asian influence,
along with Mexican influence, is very strong in California (the world's 8th
largest economy), it will probably be "propelled" from there to the rest of
the world via the entertainment industry, and this is now well under way.
So this is not really an off topic.

The next thing to watch is (East) Indian and Pakistani cuisine which has
already made great inroads here (though isn't anywhere near the level it is
in Britain).  Our South Asian population is growing by leaps and bounds.
There is now a sizeable American- and Canadian-born population of Indian and
Pakistani descent.  India, with its immeasurable wealth of highly educated
people, is now greatly profitting from American industrial outsourcing, and
all this is impacting the culture here.  Berkeley, California, now has a
small Indiatown, and Vancouver, BC, has a rather large one.

And there is long-standing Indonesian cooking influence in the Netherlands
(now starting here as well) ... another vast topic.

And, frankly, I welcome and love it all.  :-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 16:50:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:50:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.095041.0700.>

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.28 (10) [E]


Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
"Well, Leicester achly. Bit more saath, burra doont sahnd too diffrent. Live
in Notts nah."

Yeah, ah yan terd much o the wey Lester foewk tok an wot wods yeh use
(gierrus a few o yuh special wods), but its olweys saans veri cloews tee
Notts... aye yerd a bloewk frem Nothampton on thuh news wen nah wo rova in
Derbyshuh thuh uther weegk en nah thot even nee saandit well lak Notnum, so
wah wonder raa saath East Midlans tok achli goews. Raan the noth wes tay
Derbyshuh it gets sol Manky lak, an on a line runnin thro the middle ay
Notnumshuh it gets ol Yokshuh lak. Ah olwyes reckon East Midlans is thuh
fost tay thuh nothun dialecks ay English (or thuh las tay um, which yuh
prefer).

David Clarke wrote:
"Go on - I bet your mother didn't talk to you like that."

You're right. My mother's Cornish.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Reinhard, I'm intrigued again by your (Hamburg) Missingsch, particularly
what is so Low Saxon about it? It looks very High German at first sight,
M Meejchsubbe vs LS melksup etc.
<Schogolådesubbe> reminds me of the discussion we had before about voicing
stops in Danish, where I stated they could be originally from Northern Low
Saxon. Is this voicing of voiceless intervocal stops a rule in Hamburg
Missingsch? Or in the local Low Saxon too?

Ingmar

> R. F. Hahn :
>
>When I was a kid in Hamburg (and times were leaner then), we youngsters
>would regularly eat "milk soup" (German _Milchsuppe_, Missingsch
>Meejchsubbe_, Low Saxon _melksup_ <Melksupp>)for supper, all of them based
>on sweetened milk.  The most typical one was with semolina, sometimes with
>rice (and sugar and cinnamon), more times with oatmeal (G.
>_Haferflockensuppe_).  My favorite was what in Missingsch we called
>_Schogolådensubbe_ "chocolate soup," cocao added to the semolina type, I
>think.  We did not know the type you mentioned.  In the summertime, a
>special treat was "sour milk" (G. _saure Milch_ ~ _Sauermilch_, M. _saure
>Meejch_, LS _sure melk_ ~ _suurmelk_), i.e.,  milk left to stand in the
open
>to separate, go chunky and sour, then sprinkled with sugar, simetimes
>berries or chunks of fruit ... and eaten of course.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Ingmar!

I wrote:

> <Schogolådesubbe>

Which should have been <Schogolådnsubbe>.  Sorry.

Thanks for the question.

There is a lot that is Low Saxon about Missingsch, especially in grammar and
idiom, but there is a lot in phonology as well, including intonation, vowel
quality, and aspiration patterns.

Aspiration patterns is at the root of what you are asking.  The more
easterly North Saxon dialects (if not pretty much all of them), as well as
most northeastern dialects, do have aspiration (i.e., adding a puff of air)
of voiceless stops (like most German and English dialects and unlike most
Low Franconian varieties.)  However, the aspiration rules for Low Saxon are
different from those in Standard German and in most English dialects of
Britain, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand.  In fact, you can simplify
it in gegeral terms like this:

(1) Standard German aspirates like non-American English.
(2) Low Saxon and Missingsch aspirate like American English.

Type 1 aspirates all intervocalic voiceless stops.*
Type 2 aspirates all pre-vocalic stops in syllables with primary stress.

* though aspiration in syllables with non-primary stress is weaker than
aspiration in syllables with primary stress

So, aspiration in Type 2 is more restricted; e.g. (using [h] for spiration],

(1) English: tatter ['thæth3] (~ affr. ['tshætsh3]), paper ['phEIph3],
picket ['phIkh at t]
(1) German: Koppel ['khOph at l], Papier [pha'phi3`], tippeln ['thIph at ln]

(2) English: tatter ['thæt=r] (~ flap ['thæ4=r]), paper ['phEIp=r], picket
['phIk at t]
(2) N.Saxon: Koppel ['khOp=l]~['khOb=l], Papeer [pa'phEI3], tippeln
['thIp=ln]~['thIb=ln]
(2) Missingsch: Koppel ['khOp=l]~['khOb=l], Papier [pa'phi3], tippeln
['thIp=ln]~['thIb=ln]

In 2, intervocalic voicing ought to be seen as a further step, probably in
the wake of Germanization.  Even were intervocalic voicing has not taken
place in Missingsch the unaspirated stops are *perceived* and written as
voiced, because this pattern does exist in standard-focused German.  (By the
way, there are also non-northern German dialects with pattern 2.  Similarly,
in Britain there are English dialects with this pattern, also some with no
aspiration.)

Does this make it clearer?

I think of Low Saxon (and American, incl. Canadian) aspiration rules as a
stage between no aspiration (as in Low Franconian and in farwestern Low
Saxon, also as in Romance languages) on the one hand and full aspiration (as
in Standard German and Standard non-American English) on the other hand.

Ingmar, Lowlanders, sometime soon I will add my sound files, so you will be
able to hear what's going on there.

I much appreciate your interest, Ingmar.

Have a great weekend!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 15:35:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:35:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.083530.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Hi, Tom and Ron,

Tom:
what's hiding in  'burdock roots' and 'wild poke shoots'? Unable to find
them in my dictionary.

Ron:
The Asian influence one can watch increase in Germany as well. In special
the Chinese 'wok' you'll find in many German kitchens, though most of them
are not really suited to do the same as their homeland-originals, because
they're not hot enough.
Japanese 'sushi' (ore, something called like this) is the No. One-hit at the
moment, both in many restaurants and, being prepared, in the supermarket's,
too.

The great, long running favorite in the German 'New Cuisine', however, is
everything coming from Italy.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>In the summertime, a
special treat was "sour milk" (G. _saure Milch_ ~ _Sauermilch_, M. _saure
Meejch_, LS _sure melk_ ~ _suurmelk_), i.e.,  milk left to stand in the
open
to separate, go chunky and sour, then sprinkled with sugar, simetimes
berries or chunks of fruit ... and eaten of course.  (I know it sounds
disgusting, but it actually tastes quite good, yoghurty, buttermilky and
refreshing.)  Irish and English friends told me that that's what they had
as
children too.  This was when milk was still full-fat and not pasteurized.<

The original Miss Muffet's curds and whey!
A personal No! No!  tho' I quite like a cheese made from the curds with
salt, garlic and fresh chives added. Yummy!

Buttermilk is still available in Welsh shops    as a drink or for use in
tatws llaith   ( mashed potato with buttermilk)
but noone will have even heard of it in English supermarkets/ shops.

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Jonny:

> what's hiding in  'burdock roots' and 'wild poke shoots'? Unable to find
> them in my dictionary.

"Burdock (root)" is _Klettenwurz_ in German.  It's a long brown tuber with
an inside about the color of a parsnip (_Pastinake_, _Moorwurzel_).

"Pokeweed" or "poke salad" -- a native American plant -- is called
_Kermeswurzel_ in German, its botanical name being _ Phytolacca decandra _.
"Wild poke" is the wild, un-cultivated plant, and "shoots" are very young
plants, _Sprösslinge_.  "Poke," formerly "pocan," is derived from _uppowok_
or _apooke_ in Algonquian languages of Virginia, related to Narranganset
_puck_, all meaning 'smoke', because the dried leaves of this plant are
traditionally smoked and therefore used to be referred to as "Indian
tobacco."

> The great, long running favorite in the German 'New Cuisine', however, is
> everything coming from Italy.

Oh, don't tell me there's an obsession with everything Tuscany, too!  I'm
getting so sick of it here, and so are Italian acquaintances, rolling their
eyes.  As though Tuscany were the only worthwhile region of Italy ...

Heather:

> Buttermilk is still available in Welsh shops    as a drink or for use in
> tatws llaith   ( mashed potato with buttermilk)
> but noone will have even heard of it in English supermarkets/ shops.

Do they call it "Buttermilch"?

This tatws llaith is delicious, is the same in Sorbian cuisine (though I
have forgotten the name), is not as common as Sorbian smashed potatoes with
quark and linseed oil, though.

By the way, traditionally, boiled beef with horseraddish (_chrěn_) is *the*
special dish in Sorbian cuisine, is the crown course of a traditional
wedding feast that starts with the famous "wedding soup."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 14:52:00 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:52:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.075200.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]

Hi, Larry,

You wrote:
> In the States, it's thought that horseradish is a corrupted translation of
> the German "meerrettich" meer-mare-horse.

Isn't it amazing - I myself just had been on the opposite way. I thought it
could be a wrong transition of 'Peer-Rettich', meaning LS: 'Peer-', E:
'horse-' and '-radish'. Because- I don't think that there is any connection
to G:'Meer' (deriving from Latin:'mare'), E: 'the sea'.

Perhaps its origin really is the Old Saxon/OHG: 'marh', HG: 'Maehre',
meaning  E:'[old] horse', though I also found in OHG: 'menwa, menewa, manwa,
maniwa' for 'horseradish'.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 14:46:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:46:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.29 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.074619.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.28 (12) [E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder
> <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]

[...[
> I saw some TV documentaries about the Netherlands in
> WW II, e.a about the
> NSB, the Dutch political party that collaborated
> with the Nazi occupiers.
> Their slogan <hou zee!>(or <houzee>?)" reminded me
[...]

Hello:

The Dutch Nazi greeting 'hou zee' was influenced and inspired by the
Icelandic greeting 'heill og sæll'.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Thanks, Theo.

For those who don't already know, this Icelandic greeting is derived from
_Kom heill og sæll, frændi!_, literally "Come whole and happy, kinsperson!"
_Kom heill!_ by itself can be used as "Welcome!"  Needless to say that none
of this by itself has any connection with fascism, except that the Nazis in
their "pure Germanic" obsession looked at Icelandic and its speakers as the
best preserved specimens of their ideal.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 19:37:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:37:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.123738.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (05) [A/E]

Haai, Elsie, Ron:

Onderwerp: LL-L "Etymology"

Verskoon tog dat ek so laat in die maand die gesprek optel.

> En hier in Suid Afrika is Duitsers vir baie jare deur veral die Kaapse
> gemeenskappe as "Duisters" bekend gestaan. Die taalverskynsel is natuurlik
> bekend as taalverspringing.
> 'n Witmens was 'n "Duusman" genoem.

Is jy seker van die uitdrukking 'Duusman'? Indien wel klink dit vir my die
teenoorgestelde rigting van ontwikkeling in die Onderkaapse dialekte, wat
ieder die 'uu' met 'ie' wissel.

Hoe ookal, ek ontleed die benoeming van 'n 'Wit Afrikaner' uiteroorsprong
die naam Dietsman.

> Afrikaans _duister_ 'dark' directly corresponds to Low Saxon _duyster_
> (<düüster> ['dy:st3`]) 'dark'.

Ron, what about the Norse English name for the 'thorn' rune, 'Thurz' =
'demon'? (Assuming it's pertinant.

 Regards,
Mark

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (01) [E]

Dear Ingmar & Ron:

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

I also have some questions about 'ron' as the Hebrew origin of a Middle
English word. Far more likely is the derivation from 'rûn' = secret, verse,
&c. hey? It is of course a thread reaching way back to Indo Germanic, so
surely there'd be tags in justabout all our languages, but I doubt if it has
anything to do with running.

 Groete,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Mark!  Welcome back!

You write above:

> Ron, what about the Norse English name for the 'thorn' rune, 'Thurz' =
> 'demon'? (Assuming it's pertinant.

Nah, I don't think so.  It's just one of many taboo replacements for
_duyvel_, starting alike and having a sinister meaning ('dark (one)').

> I also have some questions about 'ron' as the Hebrew origin of a Middle
> English word. Far more likely is the derivation from 'rûn' = secret,
> verse,
> &c. hey?

Oh, not another doubting Thomas!  Put this pinch of pokeweed in your pipe
and smoke it:

"Nalde ha nane ronnes ne nane luue runes leornin ne lustnen." (ca. 1225)

If I'm not mistaken, it means something like this:

"He did not want to have any *rons*, nor did he want to learn or enjoy any
love *runes*."

I take it that "runes" here could mean either "incantation" / "charm" or
"song."

OK, everyone, here are a few notable items taken from my Middle English
translation at the Anniversary site:


FOUL 'bird' < OE fugel, fugol, fugul (cf. ModE fowl; D/LS vogel, G Vogel, Y
foygl 'bird')



BRID(DE) 'young bird' < OE bryd, byrd (cf. ModE bird; brood; breed)

FRAYNEN 'to ask' < fregnan, frignan, frínan (cf. dialModE frayne, freyne,
D/LS vragen, G fragen, Y fregn)

UN-WIGHT 'monster', 'boogey' < ON úvættr (cf. dialModE unwight, G Unwicht)

FORBY 'past' (cf. dialMod.E forby(e), D voorbij, LS voerby, G vorbei; Sc
forby 'besides')

MICHEL 'large' (cf. dialModE mickle, ModE much, Sc muckle, OS mikil, MidD/S
mêkel, OG mihhil, mihhal)

UMBE 'around' < OE ymbe (cf. obsModE umbe~embe, D om, LS üm, G/Y um,
MidS/MidG umbe)

HERNE < OS hyrne 'corner' (cf. dialModE hern ~ hirn, LS hoyrn, OF herne, ON
hyrna)

FORFEREN 'frighten' (cf. obsModE forfear, LS ververen <verfehren>), related
to "fear"

RUGGE 'back' < OE hrycg  (cf. obsModE rug, ModE ridge; D rug, LS rüg(ge(n)),
G Rücken, Y rukn 'back')

STAPPE 'footstep' < OE stæpe (ModE step, LS stap(pe), G Stapf(e))

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 21:53:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:53:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (08) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.145309.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Dear Thomas, Mike and Ron (if I may mix in):

> My childhood girlfriend's family in Espelkamp in Westphalia made
> something that they called "milk soup".  I am embarassed to admit that
> I used to enjoy something so humdrum.  As memory serves me, it seemed
> to be sweetened boiled milk with clamshell type pasta.  Does anyone
> have a recipe?

Maybe we have something like it in South Africa, which we call 'melkkos' =
milk-food.

Any noodles will do, but clamshells are nice because they trap a lot of
sauce. Warm a bowlful of milk gently & slowly, sweeten it to taste,
preferably with something other than refined suger - like brown sugar or
honey, spice it with fine-ground cinnamon & a very little fresh nutmeg, then
if the sick child needs it, also a short shot of brandy. It can be eaten
just like that or thickened by stirring in a rennet tablet, to make junket,
& sprinkled lightly with chocolate powder. In the old days it would be
thickened with a spoonful of milk that had been left in a food-safe to
thicken by itself over a couple of days ('moeder'). There are alternate
flavours - rosewater for one, with a bit of lemon-peel grated into it for
zest, or else a naartjie skin. Do you call this last a clementina?

No surprise you liked it!

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <UWoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Ron wrote:

> In the summertime, a
> special treat was "sour milk" (G. _saure Milch_ ~ _Sauermilch_, M. _saure
> Meejch_, LS _sure melk_ ~ _suurmelk_), i.e.,  milk left to stand in the
> open
> to separate, go chunky and sour, then sprinkled with sugar, simetimes
> berries or chunks of fruit ... and eaten of course.  (I know it sounds
> disgusting, but it actually tastes quite good, yoghurty, buttermilky and
> refreshing.)  Irish and English friends told me that that's what they had
> as
> children too.  This was when milk was still full-fat and not pasteurized.

Moin Ron,

hüüt ward de Melk suur, wenn se in de Köök steihn lettst. Fröher is se dick
worrn. Wi hebbt se in Bremen Dickmelk nöömt. Echt lecker wöör se mit
rinkrümelten Swattbroot un Sucker. Och, wat hebbt wi dat geern eeten.

Mit Kumpelment
Utz H. Woltmann

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

[English below]

Och, leyve Utz, wees bedankt vör 't an-stoeten!  Af un an besint 'n sik up
d'n eyrsten stoot nich so recht.  (Wil hoepen, us Jonny het düt nich hoyrd
...)

Ja, nip un nau so is dat west, as Du dat verklaard hest.  *Dikmelk*!  Ja, so
hebt wy er ook noymd, wen sey kluytig was.  Un, ja, wy hebt er ook vaken mit
swat-brood un tsukker eten.  Dat was 'n armere tyd, man wy woyrden dat eyrst
later wys. Kenst noch smult up brood, gryben-smult as wat heyl besünners?
;-)

Our Utz just reminded me (in his usual gentle and kind manner) that the sour
milk I was talking about was called _dikmelk_ (<Dickmelk>) "thick milk," at
least in his home (in Bremen, not far from my native Hamburg).  Indeed,
*that* is what we called it!  _Suurmelk_ is just sour milk, which is what
you get these days if you allow milk to stand at room temperature.  Because
it was not pasteurized then, milk would clot, get thick and lumpy as well as
sour.  Utz explained that a special treat in his childhood was _dikmelk_
with _swa(r)tbrood_ (<Swartbroot> ~ <Swattbroot> "black bread") crumbled on
top and sugar sprinkled over that.  Yep!  That's what we had too, and we
thought it was just wonderful ...  Which got me to reminisce like a real
old-timer about relatively simple foods having been real treats for us kids
during those leaner times, the lean part having been just normal for us at
the time (not all that long after World War II, when Germany's "Economic
Miracle" had barely gotten off the ground).  Going down memory lane a bit
farther, I asked Utz if he remembered sandwiches with nothing but lard (LS
_smult_, G _Schmalz_) on them, _gryben-smult_ (<Griebensmult>, G
_Griebenschmalz_, lard containing bits of greaves/clackling) being a special
treat ...  (Are the youngsters among us sufficiently turned off by this
old-timer talk by now, or is it of any interest to them?)

Oh, dear Marsha!  I meant to respond to your tip:

>  Off topic P.S. to  Ron - try horseradish, a little sour cream and a dash
> of
> salt and pepper on fresh corn kernals - YUM!  Also good mixed into tuna
> salad.

Woa!  I can imagine it very well in tuna salad, perhaps even egg salad.
I'll have to try the corn thing.  It sounds quite intriguing.  I might have
to do it with frozen corn though, preferably white corn.  My wife, having
been born and raised in Ohio, is a terrible corn snob.  She won't eat fresh
corn because she expects standards like in the original corn (maize) region:
the American Midwest and the corresponding Canadian provinces.  She
considers corn grown anywhere else no better than animal fodder.  It is true
that corn in the Midwest is incomparably good, but ... get over it already!
She considers West Coast corn inferior.  I wonder what she'd say about the
European-grown kind ... ;-)  Psst! Don't tell her I told you!

I think I'm now ready for a good shot of wasabi up the old honker to start
off the weekend in style ...

Have a nice weekend!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 21:54:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:54:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.29 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.145431.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.24 (03) [E]

Dear Roger:

Subject: language politics

Thanks for that article by John Daniszewski, Times Staff Writer. It's a
matter so near to my heart, mostly by virtue of an Irish Grandmother. But
one niggle - how can a man so passionate about language & Ireland be unaware
that 'spital' is an old word for hospice in both languages, out of the
Church Latin? By the way: Has somebody a clear insight into what went wrong?
How does the Irish situation differ from the Welsh, Afrikaans or Hebrew, to
say nothing of the Catalan?

Bye,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 21:54:33 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:54:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.29 (07) [A/D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.145433.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (03) [D/E]

Beste Jacqueline, Roger:

Onderwerp "Orthography"

> Re " het groene boekje"
>
> Roger Thijs quotes from the "Green Bible of Dutch Ortography"
>
> MMM.... Paddenstoel? Ik wist niet dat we er daarvan hadden die groot
> genoeg waren voor meer dan een pad tegelijk? Behalve dan misschien de
> "vliegen(ge)zwam. Jacqueline

Is ek nou heeltemaal van die baan af? Van wat ek weet dra (in onse Taal)
'paddastoel' geen verband met die meervoud van 'pad' maar liewers met die
tweeslagtige waterdiertjie van die genus Rana.
 Ons naam vir die oneetbare sampioen is gelyk aan die Engels 'toadstool' in
gebruik, asook aan 'n ouer Engelse naam vir die padda, 'paddock', in klank.
Mens kan daarvan lees in die heksebrou uit Shakespeare se 'Macbeth'.

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 21:54:35 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:54:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.145435.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.28 (10) [E]


When my mother was growing up in the village of Aylestone (now a Leicester
inner suburb), people from Blaby 5 miles away could be identified by their
accent!

Paul

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 23:27:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:27:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2005.04.29 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.162722.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: Nederlands in Opmars

Hello Lowlanders,
I saw an interesting article on De Volkskrant last night.  It seems to
indicate that Nederlands has become somewhat prestigious in France of all
places.  Could that be?

http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/1114665105426.html
<http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/1114665105426.html>

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 00:00:53 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:00:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (11) [A/D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.170053.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.29 (07) [A/D/E]

Mark Dreyer schreef
"Is ek nou heeltemaal van die baan af? Van wat ek weet dra (in onse
Taal)
'paddastoel' geen verband met die meervoud van 'pad' maar liewers met
die
tweeslagtige waterdiertjie van die genus Rana.
 Ons naam vir die oneetbare sampioen is gelyk aan die Engels 'toadstool'
in
gebruik, asook aan 'n ouer Engelse naam vir die padda, 'paddock', in
klank.
Mens kan daarvan lees in die heksebrou uit Shakespeare se 'Macbeth'."

Hoi Mark, ik geloof dat we hier in een Babylonische spraakverwarring
terecht gekomen zijn.

Als ik jouw Zuid-Afrikaans goed begrijp. Zeg jij dat "pad" in
paddenstoel komt van het amphibische beest de pad ( bufo? ). Dat was
precies wat ik bedoelde. Ik weet niet hoe groot de Zuid-Afikaanse padden
zijn - er zijn per slot van rekeningen ook "bull frogs" -, maar
Nederlandse padden zijn klein en onze paddenstoelen (mushrooms: Both
edible and poisonous)zijn ook niet zo groot. Volgens mij niet groot
genoeg dat er meer dan een pad tegelijk op kan zitten. Vandaar mijn
geklaag over de schrijfwijze.
De vliegenzwam is de beroemde rode knolamaniet (amanita muscaria) met
witte stippels, en "vliegengezwam" was mijn mislukte poging tot een
"pun".
Wat is het toch makkelijk om elkaar niet te begrijpen. Jacqueline

Hi Lowlanders, it is very difficult to make sense in English of the
above exchange in Dutch and Zuid=Afrikaans.
The Dutch word pad has two meanings 1.pad/plural paden = Path and 2.
Pad/Padden = toad. Dutch mushrooms, whether edible or not, were always
called Paddestoel ( toad stool ) but now the orthography has changed
into paddenstoel (toads stool)and I was grumbling that there are no
mushrooms in the Netherlands big enough to hold two toads at a time.
Finally I tried to make a pun on the word vliegenzwam (fly agaric) and
vliegengezwam (some flies talking drivel), but apparently I was talking
drivel myself. Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Jacqueline, Mark, Lowlanders,

> Dutch mushrooms, whether edible or not, were always called Paddestoel

Incidentally, it's also _poggen-stoul_ (<Poggenstohl>, <Poggenstauhl>) for
all sorts of mushrooms in Low Saxon, _pog(ge)_ being 'frog', in extension
including also toads.  One of the many words for 'toad' is _uytse-pog(ge)_
(< _uyts(e)_ 'toad').  They'll have to come up with a new name for the newly
discovered exploding toads of Hamburg (which you may have heard about in the
news).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 20:04:18 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:04:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2005.04.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.130418.0700.>

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2005.04.29 (10) [E]

How exactly does this relate to "image"?

Oh, and, rather than linking to an article on a site that requires
registration (even though it's free), please quote and link.

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Image

Thanks for asking.  I suppose what I had in mind was something in the order
of "public image," "national image" and, as used before, "Language image."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 20:36:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:36:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.30 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.133645.0700.>

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (04) [E]

In rspawnts t'dh'yusj v'daillektl spelling n'emails, ai'd'laik
t'emfasaiz dht't'siems a'bbit "overly dialectal-seperatist" wn'y'blr
wrd bawnddriz... plz lts nt do this kthxbye.

Mark

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (04) [E]


Doont ave many "special wods" in Leicester - ..

East Midlands in general tends to have less "dialect" than much of England;
I believe that this is because Mediaeval East Midlands was the main source
of Standard English.

As to being the front line of Northern speech, it is very much defined in
the south by the old boundary between Alfred's Wessex and Guthrum's Danelaw.
Though I see it as a north-south link; I tend to think of Northern starting
in the northerly parts of Derbyshire and Nottingham as you note;
particularly the clipped definite article (trouble at t'mill) which seems to
appear around Mansfield.

Paul

----------

From: Montgomery Michael <ullans at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (09) [E]

What specific pronunciations distinguished the two
places?

Michael Montgomery

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.28 (10)
>
> When my mother was growing up in the village of
> Aylestone (now a Leicester
> inner suburb), people from Blaby 5 miles away could
> be identified by their
> accent!
>
> Paul

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (09) [E]


Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
"When my mother was growing up in the village of Aylestone (now a Leicester
inner suburb), people from Blaby 5 miles away could be identified by their
accent!"

It's the same with me. Those of my family who live in the East Midlands
prickle at my reference to speaking "Nottingham English" - they live in Long
Eaton, and strictly speaking Nottingham English is a fairly divergent accent
and dialect from "a long way away". There is even sufficient difference
between the speech of Long Eaton and Beeston (no more than three miles
apart) for it to be noticeable.

I should properly refer to my language as "East Midlands English" (which
would be broad enough a term to include your own variant), but I'm too stuck
in my ways and, in any case, most people know where Nottingham is, but very
few have any notion of what or where the East Midlands are.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (04) [E]

Yes, you made clearer how the people in the city of exploding toads speak.
So you think it's possible that Juttish/Danish intervocalic voicing of
stops came from or at was influenced by neighboring Lower Saxony and
Hamburg LS? Or the other way around maybe?

But the North American similar tendency must be originally from Celtic
mutations, don't you think, i.e Irish English/Scottish/Western English.
Like in French, Occitan, in Iberian Romance (Spanish, Gal./Portuguese,
Catalan), Rhaetoromance, Northern Italian e.a. where Gaulish played a role.

In Dutch, we don't aspirate at all, it is the only Germanic language
without it. Only Northern Low Saxon dialects in Groningen and Northern
Drenthe do have it word initially, so that is the same system as in
Hamburg etc.

I think the Dutch lack of aspiration may be French influenced, starting in
the South - Brabant, Flandria, Zeeland - where <h> isn't pronounced at
all, so maybe the aspiration puff <h> disappeared too because of that.

Long ago (10 years or so) I had a girlfriend from Vienna - originating in
Burgenland, Austria - who lived in the Netherlands for a while. I remember
she had trouble differenciating <t> from <d> in Dutch, saying things like
<dee> [de:] for <thee> [te:i] = tea, etc. Probably because she heared our
unaspirated <t> as a <d>, or because she couldn't pronounce <t> without
puff, and <d> was the nearest sound to it in her repertoire.

Even our very talented Danish friend from Groningen -who is now staying at
the border of Germany and Austria in his own tropical paradize- says he
has trouble in Dutch and (Dutch) Low Saxon to discriminate <t> and <d>.
Or don't you, Kenneth ;-?

Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar,

> Yes, you made clearer how the people in the city of exploding toads speak.
> in the city of exploding toads

Or "in the state (_Land_) of exploding toads."  I'm not sure which part this
is, in or outside the actual city.  All I have heard about so far is that
its "a better part" ...

> So you think it's possible that Juttish/Danish intervocalic voicing of
> stops came from or at was influenced by neighboring Lower Saxony and
> Hamburg LS? Or the other way around maybe?

I'm not sure.  My educated guess is that it is an areal feature that spread
south to north, because this phonological feature is quite atypical within a
North Germanic context (as are several other features, especiall Jutish
ones).  I'm not sure if and how the North Frisian varieties fit in to that.

> I think the Dutch lack of aspiration may be French influenced, starting in
> the South - Brabant, Flandria, Zeeland - where <h> isn't pronounced at
> all, so maybe the aspiration puff <h> disappeared too because of that.

But it is interesting to note that non-aspiration is found virtually
throughout Low Franconian and throughout various Rhenish German groups.
Sure it could have spread throughout the entire area from a more strongly
French-influenced group, though I suspect that in the case Flemish and
Zeelandic h-deletion you're dealing with perhaps another area feature,
possibly a later one.

Also note that aspiration is lacking in numerous German dialect groups
elsewhere, far away from French-, Low-Franconian- and Rhenish-speaking
areas.  Well, there's a remote possibility that those of the east (like my
maternal grandmother's Lower Silesian one, now at the German-Polish border,
and like most dialects of the state with the ill-gotten name Saxony) lack
aspiration because of Slavonic substrates and/or because of Low Franconian
influences due to medieval colonization.

> Long ago (10 years or so) I had a girlfriend from Vienna - originating in
> Burgenland, Austria - who lived in the Netherlands for a while. I remember
> she had trouble differenciating <t> from <d> in Dutch, saying things like
> <dee> [de:] for <thee> [te:i] = tea, etc. Probably because she heared our
> unaspirated <t> as a <d>, or because she couldn't pronounce <t> without
> puff, and <d> was the nearest sound to it in her repertoire.

This is very typical among people that natively speak languages with
aspiration, as probably also speakers of Romance languages have noticed.  It
took me personally quite a lot of effort to learn to hear and imitate the
differences.  (It was even harder in Mandarin which has no voiced stops,
only pairs of voiceless stops distinguished by presence and absence of
aspiration.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 20:39:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:39:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.133945.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.29 (01) [E]

But Theo, <hou zee!> doesn't look so much like <heill og sæll>, does it?
<Hou zee> lit. mean <hold sea>, maybe an old sailors' motto, meaning
something like <keep straight course at sea>, and couldn't it be just a
variant of D. <hoezee!> = hurray! huzza!

Ingmar

Theo Homan
>>
>[...[
>> I saw some TV documentaries about the Netherlands in
>> WW II, e.a about the
>> NSB, the Dutch political party that collaborated
>> with the Nazi occupiers.
>> Their slogan <hou zee!>(or <houzee>?)" reminded me
>[...]
>
>Hello:
>
>The Dutch Nazi greeting 'hou zee' was influenced and inspired by the
>Icelandic greeting 'heill og sæll'.
>
>vr.gr.
>Theo Homan
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Anniversary
>
>Thanks, Theo.
>
>For those who don't already know, this Icelandic greeting is derived from
>_Kom heill og sæll, frændi!_, literally "Come whole and happy,
kinsperson!"
>_Kom heill!_ by itself can be used as "Welcome!"  Needless to say that
none
>of this by itself has any connection with fascism, except that the Nazis
in
>their "pure Germanic" obsession looked at Icelandic and its speakers as
the
>best preserved specimens of their ideal.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 21:54:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:54:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.30 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.145423.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners, Reinhard,

(English below)

disse Doog heff ick weller mol een nieg' Woord leert (door koomt jümmer noch
welk, obschounst ick siet miin Kinnertiid meist elke Dag Platt snacken dou):

LS: 'Hellbössen', inne Meent van 'Xanthippa'.

Mi wunnert de Uutsprook van dat Prefix 'Hell-', anners heet dat door, wo dat
sou düchdig warm is, 'Höll'-'. Or hett dat an dennen Innen mit dennen Düvel
rein gonnix anne Mütz?
Kennt anner Lüü' dit Woord ook?

***

Dear Lowlanders, Ron,

these days I heard another new word (they are still coming, though I use to
talk LS nearly every day, since my lovely childhood):

LS: 'Hellboessen', in the meaning of 'Xanthippa'.

The pronounciation of the prefix 'Hell-' (spoken like in English) sounds
strange to me, because that special warm place and its related words
otherwhise is called 'Hoell-`. Or is it from different origin at the end,
nothing to do with the devil?

Do other people know and use this word too?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (11) [A/D/E]


My neice (a zoologist) advises me that the division between "frog" and
"toad" is not a real zoological one.  In Europe we tend to see two ends of a
continuum; around the world there are all grades of froads and togs.

Paul

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (11) [A/D/E]

How about LS <plofpoggen> Dutch <plofpadden>? I don't know about Low Saxon
in Germany, but in the Netherlands <ploffen> or <ontploffen> means to
explode. Or would <plofbutjes> be more precise because of the locality?

Btw: I read that those <extodes> were probably slaughtered à masse by
crows, who picked their livers out. In case of danger, toads are blowing
themselves up, but because of the whole in thei bodies made by the crows,
they expload, all the blood and guts will come out...
Nice story, huh?

Ingmar

Reinhard:

>Incidentally, it's also _poggen-stoul_ (<Poggenstohl>, <Poggenstauhl>) for
>all sorts of mushrooms in Low Saxon, _pog(ge)_ being 'frog', in extension
>including also toads.  One of the many words for 'toad' is _uytse-pog(ge)_
>(< _uyts(e)_ 'toad').  They'll have to come up with a new name for the
newly
>discovered exploding toads of Hamburg (which you may have heard about in
the
>news).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ingmar:

> How about LS <plofpoggen> Dutch <plofpadden>? I don't know about Low Saxon
> in Germany, but in the Netherlands <ploffen> or <ontploffen> means to
> explode.

I'm not aware of _plof_.  I guess the normal way of rendering 'to explode'
be _barsten_ ~ _basten_ ~ _bassen_ (related to English 'to berst') -- so
perhaps _bastpad(den)_.

Though I would suggest the scientific name _Bufo displosus_.

> Or would <plofbutjes> be more precise because of the locality?

That would be better for (1) explosive flatfish, (2) explosive budgerigars
(parakeets), or (3) locally born and raised males either in a sudden fit of
rage or having forgotten to take their Beano before partaking of
_Arftensupp_ or _Bonensupp_ (pea or bean soup).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 23:34:51 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:34:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.30 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.163451.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (03) [E]

The Other Tom recounts....


Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns


On 30/04/2005, at 1:35 AM,  jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de> wrote:


  Tom:
  what's hiding in  'burdock roots' and 'wild poke shoots'? Unable to find
  them in my dictionary.
Burdock root extract is used in a soft drink I only encountered in
Yourkshire, Dandelion and Burdock.
May have been popular there but to me it tasted awful.

***

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (03) [E]

Hi, Ron,

You wrote:

> "Burdock (root)" is _Klettenwurz_ in German.  It's a long brown tuber with
> an inside about the color of a parsnip (_Pastinake_, _Moorwurzel_).

Of course- it's G: _Schwarzwurzel_. Tasting nutty (in its original meaning,
;-)), and it's also called the 'little man's asparague', though it is much
harder to earn, as Tom already mentioned.

Your fingers get brown when you wash and scrab them.

Boiled with some salt, pepper and sugar with a sprinkle of lemon juice and a
little of muscate, rounded with some sweet cream or butter at the end, it's
absolutely delicious as a companion to any good old steak.

But- aftermeals sometimes you'll feel some more 'wind' in your stomach, as
usual.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (08) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:

> Kenst noch smult up brood, gryben-smult as wat heyl besünners?

Beste Ron,

klaar kenn ik dat noch. Af un an eet wi dat hüüt noch. Kannst jümmer
noch kööpen. An besten smeckt dat op Swattbroot. Kannst ook en beten
Solt röverstreien.

Wat ook jümmer noch kriggst is Suckerröövensirup. Dat wöör fröher
"Honigersatz". Op krosse Knüppel (Rundstücke) mit en beten Bodder is dat
echt wat lecker.

Mit Kumpelment
Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]

> From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (08) [E]

> Reply for Roger Thijs regarding the onion brick.
> Hey Roger, that sounds surprisingly much like Rosti ( Dang there is no
umlaut for the o in this format), the Swiss delicacy of fried potato cake. I
have never tried to make onion cake, but I bet you can make it by frying
sliced onions in a bit of oil or butter until still soft but browning.
> Then add a little bit of potato starch and some salt in a small amount of
water mix well and pack the onions in a baking form.
> Put in the oven at 35O F for 30' or so and it should be ready. I'll have
to try that one of these days. I am getting hungry. Jacqueline

Thanks for this and other replies.
I just wanted to add:
eating the onion brick (served as appetizer) took some time, not only
because of its size, but also because it also was stone hard. It was
difficult to break it into pieces with fork and knife. Hammer and chisel
would eventually have been better tools.
I'm just wondering if Rösti is also made that hard.

Regards,
Roger
PS. Curiously the Americans use "entrée" for the main dish, while for the
French entrée is used for the appetizer.

----------

From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (08) [E/LS]


Hey Ron,
Know very well about corn snobs, the fields are thick of them back where I
come from. Back when I owned my little tavern/restaurant, come corn season
you would have caused "jigunda
bahlen seshun" if you would have dared to say something like Evans City
Silver Queen is not as good as Saxonburg Cream n' Butter corn. Each little
'burg or hamlet or village seemed to specialize in some different or
odd-ball named type.
The sour cream on corn stirred a memory, thought that you would like this;
Corn Casserole with Sour Cream and Chili.
1 bag (16 oz. 500 g) frozen white corn
3/4 cup sour cream
4 lg. eggs
big pinch sugar
1/2 sweet red pepper, minced
as much red chili pepper, minced, as you like
1 onion, minced
2 tbsp. butter or olive oil (butter is better)
5 tbsp. fine breads, divided (3 for the batter and 2 for sprinkling on top)
salt and pepper to taste

Sweat the peppers and onion in butter or oil until just soft. Mix together
eggs with the sour cream,seasonings, then mix in the bread crumbs. Fold in
the vegetables. Pour into a buttered casserole. Sprinkle crumbs over top.
Bake in 325° oven until set, or to your liking. You can dress this up with
shredded  Cheddar cheese or whatever you like and dare I suggest? crumbled
crisp bacon or ham stirred in. You can even add in zucchini if you care to.
Had this every corn season on Fridays with fried fish and cole slaw.

About European corn, the less said the better.

Didn't get a chance to add to the thingamajig, whatchamacallit post, was
laid up. Wanted to add the following: Joe Mahteratz, Joe Bachagalupe, Jo
Bagadonuts for when you can not remember someones name. The dreaded Joe
Bunde (Bunda) as in Mam yelling at the kids for snitching the last piece of
cake, after a chorus of not me "well who ate it, Joe Bunde?"

Time to go and snarl at the p.t. person again,
take care,
Larry

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Jonny:

> Of course- it's G: _Schwarzwurzel_.

Nee, nee, Jonny!  _Schwarzwurzeln_ (LS _swart-wurteln_, _swat-wutteln_,
_swart-worteln_, _swat-wotteln_, etc.) are different creatures:
_Scorzonera_, the one you're talking about _Scorzonera hispanica_.  In
English it's "(black) salsify" (belonging to the daisy family:
_Asteraceae_), often referred to as "vegetable oyster" due to its taste.  In
Dutch it's called _schorseneer_, also _keukenmeidenverdriet_ ("kitchen
maid's bother" because of the sticky juice), _winterasperge_ ("winter
asparagus") and _armeluisasperge_ ("poor folk's asparagus").

Burdock (_Arctium_) is a sort of burr (_Kletten_, _klyven_ ~ _kleyven_)
plant of which you can eat the taproots.  This edible root is particularly
popular in Japan where the plant is known as  牛蒡 _gobô_ (_gobou_).  It is
also well-liked in Korea (� 모 _seonmo_) and in China (牛蒡 Mandarin _niupang_ ~
_niubang_, Cantonese _ngau bong_ "cow (burdock) herb"), is also used for
medicinal purposes and drunk as tea.  Throughout Eurasia it's thought to be,
among other things, a galactagogue, i.e., something that increases lactation
(milk production).  I suspect that the English burdock and dandelion drink
started off as a medicinal potion.

I admit that the look of both sorts of roots is similar, except that burdock
ones are much thicker and longer.

I absolutely detested salsify when I was a child.  (We used to eat it with
some sort of flour-based white sauce, like pretty much all root vegetables.)
I ate it again a few years ago and found it quite palatable and
mild-tasting.  Goes to show you how sensitive children's palates are.

Utz:

> Suckerröövensirup

Daar besin ik my ook noch an.

Roger:

> I'm just wondering if Rösti is also made that hard.

I've never come across that onion brick you talked about.  In my book,
_Rösti_ (in Allemannic manner pronounced with a "sh" sound for the "s," by
the way) is the Swiss answer to American hashbrowns: shredded potato cooked
(somewhat browned) on a griddle.  It's one of the American breakfast
favorites and is anything but hard (unless you forget about it for a few
hours).

And last but by no means least, Larry, my favorite American in Luxembourg
(Dave Singleton being my favorite Englishman in Luxembourg, whose
Anniversary sound file I totally dig):

>  Corn Casserole with Sour Cream and Chili.

Thanks.  Sounds like major yummage.  Will have to try it (with Splenda for
the sugar part, since white corn alone comes with more sugar I'm normally
allowed in one feeding -- yep, 'fraid so ...)

> About European corn, the less said the better.

Absolutely.  I'd extend that to corn anywhere outside the Americas.

Happy Easter, Larry and others of the Eastern Orthodox persuation!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 23:36:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:36:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.30 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.163619.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.29 (07) [A/D/E]

Hello, All, I got the message about the spelling change in Dutch in 2006,
but since I don't speak Dutch, I understood nothing. What are the changes?
Ben

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 00:33:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:33:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.31.MAR.2005.163338.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

First, dear Arthur and Robin, let me compliment you with your "Neogothic"
poem of Othmar&Atilla! I don't know if there's also music to this soldier
's song, but anyway it is fantastic enough... And romantic too, I like that

However, I have some critical remarks about it (not the song).

You said the three lines of the Crimean Gothic Catilena are:

"Wara, wara ingdalau; sku te gifa aglithau; haemysoeth forbitha ea".

But what De Busbecq (or his printer) wrote was actually:

"Wara wara ingdolou; Seu te gira Galtzou; hoemisclep dorbiza ea".

as we can see at
http://syllabus.gmxhome.de/gotica/taurica.html
where we find the original (Latin) text of De Busbecq, together with a
small vocubalary.

I think <ou> = [u] like in French, without doubt one of De Busbecq major
languages,  and in Greek - the person who tought him these words and
sentences was a Crimean Greek. I doubt it that the old Germanic thorn -
looking a bit like p or b- would have been known to him or any Crimean,
Gothic or not at that time, and then written incorrectly as p by De
Busbecq. So from DB's <hoemisclep> to your <haemysoeth> is quite a big
step. From DB's <dorbiza> to <forbitha> even bigger, not to speak of from
his <Galtzou> to your <aglithau>...

Looking at the vocabulary, I must say that I don't see why this particular
words are per se Gothic. They look much more Western Germanic to me, a bit
German, a bit Low Saxon, a bit Dutch... If Gothic or another Eastern
Germanic language would have survived so long in that Region, even it's
modern form could never look so North Western European Germanic as these
words do...
It would have kept at least more similarities with neighbouring Greek,
Turkic, Slavic, in its phonology at least, e.g. preservation of unstressed
vowels etc.
Maybe this so-called Crimean Gothics were nothing more than one of the
countless isolated old settlements from Germany in Eastern and South
Eastern Europe, both speaking High German and Low Saxon dialects.
Crimea is a part of Ukraine...

Again, this says nothing about your beautiful poem, Robin and Arthur, just
something about my opinion about this language

With all health,

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

----------

From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

Unexpected benefits of membership on LL-L.....

Arthur, your mention of the Modern Language Association of America in the
notes to the poem (which is lovely, sad, haunting, by the way) sent me off
in search of them.  Not being an academic, I had no knowledge of them, can't
join, but their website does have a link to their radio program.  Looking
over the archives for 2003 I spotted a program about women writer's in
contemporary Indian literature, the very women I've been searching out since
the late 80's.  I googled a couple of names unfamiliar to me and was taken
to India.com and their wonderful store of books, music, etc.  I now have the
names of 8 authors new to me, upon whom I will undoubtedly spend the bulk of
my spare change over the next year.  I knew this knowledge must be out
there, but where to start, with limited time?

So, thank you, and dang I wish I didn't have to buy groceries!

Marsha
/serendipity abounds
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Lowlands-L
  To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
  Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:39 PM
  Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

  Robin and I composed a poem incorporating these lines. Ron Hahn has agreed
  to list it herewith, followed by our author/translator notes.
  Hope you enjoy it.
---------

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

This is fascinating, before I read this piece I always thought that the
Goths were marauding hoards similar to Ghengis Khans, not refugees fleeing
floodlands.

Anyone know anything of a nation north of Turkey who turned to Juadism
between 200 and 700AD?

Tom

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Our resident Oregonian, Marsha (above):


> /serendipity abounds

See?  This is what happens when you grace the List with the sunshine of your
presence.  I'm glad this worked out so well for you.

The Modern Language Association of America is indeed a great resource, was
so already before electronic data processing, gathering publication data not
only from the US but from all over the world.

> So, thank you, and dang I wish I didn't have to buy groceries!

You sure are not alone there.  But please do make some time to pop in at
LL-L once in a while!

And our Irish friend Tom ...

F??ilte ar ais, a Thom??is! C??n chao?? a bhfuil t???

Scr??obh t??:

> This is fascinating, before I read this piece I always thought that the
> Goths were marauding hoards similar to Ghengis Khans, not refugees fleeing
> floodlands.

I'm glad this did something for you. Unfortunately, those of us who wish to
get a bit closer to the truth have to learn to wade through the biases of
written and popularized history.  No one mentally halfway balanced would
want to whitewash any of the violence the people on any side committed and
dealt with, but we would do well to realize that there are at least two
sides to every (hi)story (and (her)story).  In the Netherlands and Northern
Germany we were/are made to celebrate the birthday and victory Charlemagne
("Charles the Great"), and he was the guy that indiscriminately had large
masses of Saxons murdered in the name of Rome and Christianity, subduing
them to rob them of their beliefs, identity and social structure.  The
celebrated and romanticized crusading knights of Europe committed
unspeakable holocausts in the Middle East, victimizing mostly Muslims.  Some
of the most celebrated historical church figures, including Hildegard von
Bingen (1098-1179) and Martin Luther (1483-1546), loved carrying their
antisemitic hats and megaphones around.  And so the list goes on.

It's not accidental that one of the most enduring Hungarian men's names is
Attila ("little father," or better "daddy"), the name of the here vilified
and there glorified Hunnic leader (434-453).  Similarly, throughout the
Turkic- and Mongolic-speaking world, the name ??ingis ~ ??engis (Chinghis ~
Chenghis) is an evergreen, not because those people admire violence and
cruelty but because they have been fed a different history of Ghengis Khan
(properly pronounced "Jengiz Khan," by the way).  And all those scary names
like "Goths," "Vandals," "Langobards" and "Barbarians" (Berbers) are
connected with similarly distorted, polarized histories.  When Mr. bin Ladin
refers to Westerners as "crusaders" (????????? ??? ????) he does so to capitalize
from centuries of fear of Christians.

So thanks to Robin and Arthur for reminding us that the Goths, too, had
endured a lot of suffering, and that much of their attributed cruelty had to
do with a struggle for survival, something common to all of "tribal"
Eurasia.

> Anyone know anything of a nation north of Turkey who turned to Juadism
> between 200 and 700AD?

Hmm ... "north of Turkey" ... That's a large area.  Two ethnicities spring
to mind:

(1) the Karaim/Karaits of Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine (who use the Hebrew
alphabet to write their Turkic language varieties)
See: http://www.turkiye.net/sota/karaim.html

(2) the Khazars of a large area north of the Caucasus, apparently of mixed
origin with a large Turkic base
See: http://www.khazaria.com/

Robin and Arthur, thanks for the poignant poem that brings the Goths to life
in our minds!  Have you considered submitting it for print publication?

Coming back home to the Lowlands, below are my attempts of translating the
Gothic verse:

>     Wara wara ing-dalau
>     Scu te gifa agli??au
>    H??mysoe?? forbi??a ea,
>     Attila, Attila.
>
>     Beware, beware the plunging blade,
>     It shall bring you bitter anguish,
>     Banished from your ancestral home.
>     Attila, Attila.

Modern Low Saxon (North Saxon):

     Waar dy, waar! Dat sweyrt syn stoot
     Schal dy geven pyn un dood,
     Verbaden jou de haymaat-eyrd'.
     Attila! Attila!

     Wahr di, wahr! Dat Sweert sien Stoot
     Schall di g??ven Pien un Doot,
     Verbaden jo de Heimaateer.
     Attila! Attila!

Old English:

     Bewar, bewar ??ec! Bl??dgefeallu
     Scal ??e ??iefan p??n ond bealu.
     C??????land is forb??adan ??iu.
     Attila! Attila!

Compromise spelling for the ASCII dinosaurs:

     Bewar, bewar thec! Blaedgefeallu
     Scal dhe giefan pi^n ond bealu
     Cy^ththland is forbe'adan giu.
     Attila! Attila!

Old Saxon:

     UUar th??, uuar! The herufelan
     Skal th?? gevan uundarkwelan.
     H??mland is farbiodan iu.
     Attila! Attila!

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 00:50:16 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:50:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.03.31 (09) [E/S]
Message-ID: <THU.31.MAR.2005.165016.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: April 1st Query

In Edinburgh on this date the victim of a prank would have the word
"HUNTYGOWK" yelled at him/her.
If the prankster did this after noon the victim would recite loudly.
"Huntygowk's past an yewr a stupit ass.
Up the tree an doon the tree,
Yew're a bigger fuil thun me !"

My question friends is what's the origin of Huntygowk ?In Scots a
'Gowk' is three clowns short of a circus (eg Away Ye go Ye daft gowk
Ye) but 'Hunty' ?
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 01:04:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:04:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.31 (10) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.31.MAR.2005.170417.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks for reminding me of April Fool's before it hits America, Tom.  You
can never be too careful, and this gives me some time to think up possible
pranks and their victims.  (Bewar, bewar! Aprelissott!)

In actual fact, I wonder if I have been pranked already.  I just received a
news report from the good folks at Plattnet.de, and it says that Low Saxon
(Low German) is supposed to become the top official language of the German
state of Sleswig-Hulsteen/Slesvig-Holsten/Schleswig-Holstein.  Excuse me ...
What?!

Hmmm ...
Reinhard/Ron

***

Plattdeutsch soll erste Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein werden

(pn) CDU und SPD in Schleswig-Holstein wollen Koalitionsgespr?che zur
Bildung einer gemeinsamen Landesregierung aufnehmen. Dazu haben die
Parteigremien am Mittwochabend gr?nes Licht gegeben, nachdem die
Unterh?ndler, allen voran SPD-Chef Claus M?ller und der CDU-Vorsitzende
Peter Harry Carstensen, von erfolgreichen Ann?herungen w?hrend ihrer
Sondierungsgespr?che berichtet hatten.

Inzwischen wurden erste Ergebnisse ihrer Vereinbarungen bekannt, die
baldm?glichst umgesetzt werden sollen. So ist unter anderem geplant,
Plattdeutsch zur ersten Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein zu erkl?ren. "De
L??d in't Land m??t endlich klor un d?tlich verstahn k?nn'n, wat de
Politikers in't Landeshuus seggen w?llt", verk?ndete gut gelaunt der
CDU-Mann Carstensen, und sein SPD-Kollege M?ller f?gte selbstbewusst hinzu:
"Wi hebbt markt, dat wi mit Plattd??tsch de gr?ttste Schnittmenge tw?schen
de beiden Parteien tofaten hebbt."


Es darf erwartet werden, dass diese Ma?nahme, die die Parlaments- und
Regierungskultur in Schleswig-Holstein nachhaltig ver?ndern d?rfte, vom SSW
mit positiver Zustimmung geduldet wird, gilt doch die Vorsitzende dieser
wichtigen politischen Kraft im Lande, Anke Spoorendonk, als ?beraus
qualifizierte Plattdeutschsprecherin. Das mag f?r die Koalition von
entscheidender Bedeutung sein, wird doch der Haltung des SSW inzwischen
bundesweit Beachtung geschenkt.


Vertreter der zuk?nftigen Opposition hielten sich bislang mit Stellungnahmen
zur?ck. Karl-Martin Hentschel (B?ndnis 90/Die Gr?nen) reagierte zun?chst
besonders grimmig, wollte aber einem gemeinsamen Urteil seiner
Fraktionskollegen nicht vorgreifen; und FDP-Fraktionschef Wolfgang Kubicki
erkl?rte, sich mit sp?ttischen Reaktionen vorerst zur?ckhalten zu wollen.


Mit betont diplomatischer Gelassenheit ?u?erte sich Landtagspr?sident Martin
Kayenburg. Aufgrund eines intensiven Studiums der Akten seines Vorg?ngers
Heinz-Werner Arens f?hle er sich durchaus in der Lage, binnen kurzer Zeit
die sprachliche Kompetenz erwerben zu k?nnen, um die Sitzungen des
Landesparlaments in plattdeutscher Sprache leiten zu k?nnen.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:07:35 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:07:35 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.080735.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.03.31 (02) [E]

On 01/04/2005, at 2:36 AM, heather rendall
<HeatherRendall at compuserve.com> wrote:

> to conk out = to fail / break down- especially of a car      After a
> few
> minutes the engine conked out.
>
> I cannot remember it being used  to refer to people -

It certainly was in my youth in Edinburgh Scotland, especially on
January 2nd when Hogmanay survivors would tell about how poor X 'conked
out' around 2 am.

As to conkers while in Ghana I looked over specimen elementary math
questions and found they had simply transferred English ones lock stock
and barrel. There was one that stated James has 5 conkers, Charles has
twice that number plus 3. How many do they have all together ? I
enquired of my local staff if they knew what a conker was.....no way !
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

---------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.03.31 (03) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, Marsha:

The Afrikaans pronunciation of 'koek' is more like the /oo/ in 'took'
than the oo in soon.

[Ron said: Afrikaans cognates are _koek_, pronounced "kook" (with "oo" as
in "soon"), _pannekoek_ being "pancake."  Low Saxon (Northern Saxon
dialects) has _kouken_ (<Koken>), pronounced like "koken" or "kowken", with
the pancake derivation _pan-kouken_ (<Pannkoken>).  Medieval Low Saxon has
_k?ke_.

Cheerio!
Elsie Zinsser

---------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.31 (10) [E/German]


Ron wrote:
"(Bewar, bewar! Aprelissott!)"

Is the second syllable in _aprelissott_ the same word as the now archaic
Eng. _sot_ meaning "fool" (but latterly also a euphemisim for "drunkard"
e.g., _Suleyman the Sot_ as a nickname for one of the Ottoman sultans if I
recall)? If so, where do _sot_ and _fool_ come from?

It being close to April Fools' Day I thought I would ask a daft / easy /
lazy question.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology


?ser l?ofe fr?ond Cr?ost?ir wr?t bufan:

> Is the second syllable in _aprelissott_ the same word as the now archaic
> Eng. _sot_ meaning "fool" (but latterly also a euphemisim for "drunkard"
> e.g., _Suleyman the Sot_ as a nickname for one of the Ottoman sultans
> if I recall)?

G?ese.

Actually, it's the fourth syllable, and the compound noun is my invention,
though the components are really Old English.

> If so, where do _sot_ and _fool_ come from?

SOT:
OEng _sott_ < OFrench _sot_  < Latin _sottus_
> MidDutch _sot_ ~ _sod_ > ModDutch _zot_, MidSax _sot(t)_ > ModSax _sot_
> (<Sott>)
'fool, 'drunkard'

FOOL:
MidEng _f?l_ < OFrench _fol_ (> ModFrench _fou_)
Cf. folly < Mid Eng _folie_ < OFrench _folie_

?t fr?ondl?ce gr?tan,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:12:01 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:12:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.01 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.081201.0800.>

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.31 (10) [E/German]


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Plattdeutsch soll erste Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein werden.

Wouldn?t that be something?!

Dreamt by Mike Wintzer

---------

From: waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.31 (10) [E/German]

From: Waki yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp

Hallo Ron san,
I have also received the same news. I have wondered also, if this news is
true. I have ever heard that "Plattdeutsch" is an official launguage of
"Stadtrat" of Heide in Holstein. And some members of the "Bundestag" are
working to make "Plattdeutsch" one of the official languages.

I have read the news from Platt.de very interesting, but with a question
mark?.

Hartlich,
Yasuji Waki ut Japan

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language politics
>
> Thanks for reminding me of April Fool's before it hits America, Tom.  You
> can never be too careful, and this gives me some time to think up possible
> pranks and their victims.  (Bewar, bewar! Aprelissott!)
>
> In actual fact, I wonder if I have been pranked already.  I just received
> a
> news report from the good folks at Plattnet.de, and it says that Low Saxon
> (Low German) is supposed to become the top official language of the German
> state of Sleswig-Hulsteen/Slesvig-Holsten/Schleswig-Holstein.  Excuse me
> ...
> What?!
>
> Hmmm ...
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> ***
>
> Plattdeutsch soll erste Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein werden
>
> (pn) CDU und SPD in Schleswig-Holstein wollen Koalitionsgespr?che zur
> Bildung einer gemeinsamen Landesregierung aufnehmen. Dazu haben die
> Parteigremien am Mittwochabend gr?nes Licht gegeben, nachdem die
> Unterh?ndler, allen voran SPD-Chef Claus M?ller und der CDU-Vorsitzende
> Peter Harry Carstensen, von erfolgreichen Ann?herungen w?hrend ihrer
> Sondierungsgespr?che berichtet hatten.
>
> Inzwischen wurden erste Ergebnisse ihrer Vereinbarungen bekannt, die
> baldm?glichst umgesetzt werden sollen. So ist unter anderem geplant,
> Plattdeutsch zur ersten Amtssprache in Schleswig-Holstein zu erkl?ren. "De
> L??d in't Land m??t endlich klor un d?tlich verstahn k?nn'n, wat de
> Politikers in't Landeshuus seggen w?llt", verk?ndete gut gelaunt der
> CDU-Mann Carstensen, und sein SPD-Kollege M?ller f?gte selbstbewusst
> hinzu:
> "Wi hebbt markt, dat wi mit Plattd??tsch de gr?ttste Schnittmenge tw?schen
> de beiden Parteien tofaten hebbt."
>
> Es darf erwartet werden, dass diese Ma?nahme, die die Parlaments- und
> Regierungskultur in Schleswig-Holstein nachhaltig ver?ndern d?rfte, vom
> SSW
> mit positiver Zustimmung geduldet wird, gilt doch die Vorsitzende dieser
> wichtigen politischen Kraft im Lande, Anke Spoorendonk, als ?beraus
> qualifizierte Plattdeutschsprecherin. Das mag f?r die Koalition von
> entscheidender Bedeutung sein, wird doch der Haltung des SSW inzwischen
> bundesweit Beachtung geschenkt.
>
> Vertreter der zuk?nftigen Opposition hielten sich bislang mit
> Stellungnahmen
> zur?ck. Karl-Martin Hentschel (B?ndnis 90/Die Gr?nen) reagierte zun?chst
> besonders grimmig, wollte aber einem gemeinsamen Urteil seiner
> Fraktionskollegen nicht vorgreifen; und FDP-Fraktionschef Wolfgang Kubicki
> erkl?rte, sich mit sp?ttischen Reaktionen vorerst zur?ckhalten zu wollen.
>
> Mit betont diplomatischer Gelassenheit ?u?erte sich Landtagspr?sident
> Martin
> Kayenburg. Aufgrund eines intensiven Studiums der Akten seines Vorg?ngers
> Heinz-Werner Arens f?hle er sich durchaus in der Lage, binnen kurzer Zeit
> die sprachliche Kompetenz erwerben zu k?nnen, um die Sitzungen des
> Landesparlaments in plattdeutscher Sprache leiten zu k?nnen.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:17:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:17:17 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.04.01 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.081717.0800.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.03.31 (09) [E/S]


Tom McRae wrote:
"My question friends is what's the origin of Huntygowk? In Scots a 'Gowk' is
three clowns short of a circus (eg Away Ye go Ye daft gowk Ye) but 'Hunty'?"

I cannot propose any meaning for _hunty_. However, here in Derry the term
_gack_ is still used (often in the adjective _gacky_) to mean "foolishly or
cloyingly embarrassing but well-intentioned", in much the same way as
Australian _dag_ and _daggy_ (i.e., _wat a gack_ "What a dag" ). Do you
reckon the two are related?

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.03.31 (09) [E/S]

Tom speirt:

> My question friends is what's the origin of Huntygowk ?In Scots a
> 'Gowk' is three clowns short of a circus (eg Away Ye go Ye daft gowk
> Ye) but 'Hunty' ?

Hunt the Gowk.

a fool?s errand, some one sent on such an errand.

Andy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

_Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
(<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:24:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:24:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.04.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.082409.0800.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (08) [E]

Tom writes:Anyone know anything of a nation north of Turkey who turned to
Juadism between 200 and 700AD?

These were the Khazars of Khazikstan
se Arthur Koestler's "The thirteenth Tribe" for his history of them.

Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 16:25:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:25:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.082540.0800.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Phonology" 2005.03.31 (07) [E]

Hi everyone,

Interesting point that Paul Finlow-Bates made:
When I was learning Afrikaans, "ui" was the trickiest sound to master.

I have to tell you that the rounded ui [@i] is increasingly getting
pronounced
ai [ai], especially in Johannesburg and Pretoria. So buite [b at it@] is
becoming
baaite [bait@].

Even my 4-year old grandson is doing this.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:01:37 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:01:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2005.04.01 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.140137.0800.>

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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

Happy April (no kidding)!

Welcome to all of you who joined us since my last administrative message! At
the end of this message is a list of your places of residence. I am
particularly pleased to welcome more new members from Africa (sort of): our
first member from Mauritius, our first member from Sudan and our third
member from Morocco.

Allo! Ki manyer? Mo kontan monne zwin u.
???????? ?? ????????! !????? ???? ????????????

Two more weeks to go till the unveiling of our anniversary presentation!
Thanks to all of you who have already contributed translations, sound files,
introductions and suggestions. Time for the rest of you to get cracking!
Below is what I wrote about it earlier. It applies to you whether you joined
us today, ten years ago or in between.

Before I get to normal List business, let me remind you of our upcoming 10th
anniversary (April/May 2005) and the anniversary project we are putting
together: a collection of translations of a Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
folktale in various Lowlands language varieties (*any* varieties) and other
languages, both reading and for listening. You will find the raw material
here: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html . But we will
present this elsewhere, jazzed up, and with sound. It's going to be really
terrific.

Some subscribers have already contributed to this. Thanks to all of them.
Contribution recognition awards will be handed out later.

More is needed, folks! Besides translations and sound recordings, we need
subscribers' brief (1-8 paragraphs) introductions, preferably with pictures,
but contributions without pictures will be gladly received too. Just
introduce yourselves, say where (in general) you live and originally come
from, what sorts of interests you have, and what your experiences and/or
first impressions you have as relates to Lowlands-L. We want to show folks
out there the diversity of membership. We do not want to impress them with
great names and achievements, just show them that virtually anyone at any
level of knowledge and experience and from any part of the world is welcome
to join us and is likely to gain something from it. If you are new to the
List, by all means, introduce yourselves and tell us what you hope to get
out of it and what your experiences have been so far. You may do so in any
language you like, do not need to write in English or in another Lowlands
language. If you do it bilingually, that would be great.

If you want to contribute introductions or translations, please send them to
me (sassisch at yahoo.com), and I will pass them on to Mathieu van Woerkom, our
webmaster who is designing a very nice new site for the occasion. We are not
concerned about duplication. If there is already a translation in your
language, please send us yours anyway. No two people tell a story exactly
alike, nor do they have exactly the same pronunciation. The main thing is
that your write and speak in a *natural* way. If you want to contribute
sound recordings, please get in touch with Henry Pijffers
(henry.pijffers at saxnot.com) who will also be happy to give you technical
advice and instructions.

Normal List business:

For some strange reason, some of you send commands for the list server to my
personal email address. Please don't! Please follow the instruction provided
at the beginning and end of each issue: send them to listserv at listserv.net,
or perform them on the Web
(<http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>) if you know
how. If things really don't work, please write to the administrative address
(<lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>).

Besides tat, it is important to remember the following:

(1) We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your
view mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.

(2) You *must* always give us your name, given name and family name.

(3) If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give
us the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do
something in case we get error messages from that server.

(4) You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do.

And a "new" one: DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY. I
cannot accept them and will ask you to resubmit them in normal type case.
Note that, besides being difficult to read, all-caps text breaks Internet
etiquette rules. It is only used to orthographically represent
headings/headlines, besides that SHOUTING, YELLING, SCREAMING, etc., and
beyond that it's perceived as a sign of crying for attention. It's
considered simply OBNOXIOUS.

Please, folks, read and understand the rules and guidelines! It's really
important.

Rules and Guidelines: Dutch: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=regels
English: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
German: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=regeln-de
Limburgish: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=regele
Lowlands Saxon (Low German): http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=regeln
Russian: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules-ru

Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is not
an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name, even
if you do not put them right next to each other.

Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

(1) Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please.

(2) Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your
responses. Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't
apply or is silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.

(3) Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your
response before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do
not complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
version. It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are
relevant to your response.

(4) Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If
you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as
the author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe authors
the courtesy of crediting them by name.

(5) If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the sign-off
command to the posting address or to my personal address. Please follow the
instructions at the top and bottom of each LL-L issue (send the command
"signoff lowlands-l" to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org).

TEMPORARY ABSENCE
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us
(lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net) to let us know the date you want mail to be
stopped and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can
attest, this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude
method of signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which has
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection. Sometimes the reason is that a
subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam" filter) has not been "told" to
exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our mailings do not arrive in your
inboxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam"
filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem
if all of the above fails. Should you indeed be disconnected, please write
to me or resubmit an application
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=subscription). I'll be more than
happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Let me remind you that, while there may be differences of opinions and
approaches regarding some issues, it is best to assume that your fellow
subscribers are basically on your side, if not your friends and allies. This
assumption is a good preventive measure when tempers want to flare up. No
one here is out to "get" anyone else, and what once in a while may feel like
a rebuke from anyone, including myself (and I have been on both sides of
this), please bear in mind that this is not meant to haul you over the
coals, to humiliate you and to declare your input as worthless and you as a
person as inadequate. Think of them as challenges, for there can be no
fruitful discussion without challenges. Of course, if you are the one
dishing out such challenges please do so with as much gentleness, politeness
and respect as you can possibly muster (and be prepared for some people
feeling "shot down" even then). Having said this, let me hasten to add that
there is a difference between occasional challenges on the one hand and
constant challenges simply for the sake of challenging and of arousing
people's anger on the other hand, namely behavior patterns that are
unwelcome here and on any other list.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Two more weeks to go till our 10th anniversary ... and our membership keeps
on growing.

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

***

Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since March 1, 2005:
     Canada:
          Alberta:
               Calgary [1]
     Morocco:
          `Ain AlSeba` (??? ?? ??????????):
               Casablanca (?????????? ??????? ?????? AlD??r AlB??????`) [1]
     Mauritius:
          Beau Bassin:
               Chebel [1]
     Netherlands:
          Groningen:
               Groningen [1]
          Utrecht:
               Utrecht [1]
          Zwolle:
               Overijssel [1]
     Poland:
          Mazowsze:
               Warsaw (Warszawa) [1]
     Sudan:
          Khartoum:
               Khartoum [1]
     Turkey:
          Ankara:
               Ankara [1]
     United Kingdom:
          England:
               Nottinghamshire:
                    Nottingham [1]
     United States of America:
          Idaho:
               Boise [1]
          Illinois:
               Chicago [1]
          Kansas:
               Hillsboro [1]
          Massachusetts:
               West Springfield [1]
          Oregon:
               Boring [1]
          Wyoming:
               Laramie [1]

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:04:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:04:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.140421.0800.>

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=======================================================================

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (05) [E]


Groeten, alle

Dumb (even for me!) question: is this _ui to ai_ process similar to that
which occurred in the Six Counties of the North of Ireland, _house_ to
_hais_ ?, Or _pound_ to _paind_ ?

I recall that non-Dutch also have trouble with the square in Amsterdam named
_Spui_, pronouncing it e.g., _spow_ or _spooee_. Something like an unstable
molecule, inte sant?

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:06:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:06:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.04.01 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.140624.0800.>

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=======================================================================

From: Dan Prohaska <danielprohaska at bluewin.ch>
Subject: "Grammar" [E]

Just to throw in my two centS worth...

I've often heard "pound" or "dollar" in the singular when following a
numeral higher than one. It always sounded a little "folksy" but never
"incorrect".

So if "three pound" and "three dollar" is fine, why not "three Euro"?

Dan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:42:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:42:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (09) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.144232.0800.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.04.01 (03) [E]


Tom McRae wrote:

"My question friends is what's the origin of Huntygowk? In Scots a 'Gowk' is

three clowns short of a circus (eg Away Ye go Ye daft gowk Ye) but 'Hunty'?"

Hi Tom, I can?t help you with hunty either, but:

This sound suspiciously like one of the ways the Dutch use the word "gek"

Although it's basic meaning is "insane", ( like gekkenhuis = insane asylum )
we use it idiomatically in several different ways; none of these illicits
the reaction which you get when you tell an AE speaking listener that he/she
is crazy.

Here is a sampling:

Dat is niet gek. ( Pas mal ?a )

Jan is een mooie gek. ( John is a funny guy, I am fond of him )

Die jurk ziet er niet gek uit. ( That dress does?nt look bad at all,
actuallly it is rather attractive.)

Jaap is gek met zijn nieuwe computer ( Jaap is so proud of his new computer,
he can?t stop playing with it )

Stop met dat lawaai, ik word er gek van. ( Mother to children: Stop the
noise, it is driving me crazy.

My mother to me: Doe maar gewoon dan doe je al gek genoeg. ( Don?t act in
this extravagant way, you?re abnormal enough when you act like a normal
human being )

Finally a proverb: Hij is goed maar niet gek. (He may be very nice, but you
can?t make a fool of him)

This is just a sampling, there are many more. Jacqueline

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Dag, Reinhard, Lowlanners,

de meersten van Jau sch?llt woll dat Woord *appeldwatsch* kennen, HG:
'verquer, besserwisserisch', E: 'obstinate'.

V??r 'n St?cker wat Doog hevv ick nu ook *beer[n?]dwatsch* h??rt, un' ick
weet ne recht, wat dat woll meen'n schall. Komt dat woll van 'Beer' E: beer'
or van 'Beern', E: 'pear'?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Jacqueline,

In the North Saxon dialects of Low Saxon in Germany you won't find _gek_
(<Geck>) used very often, probably mostly in the far west, but I assume it's
used more in the Westphalian dialects.  Northern Germans tend to associate
the word with the Rhenish area and carnaval.  I don't think you can use it
as an adjective, but I'm not sure.  As an adjective, it sounds particularly
"dialectical" to me.

I guess the most likely North Saxon equivalent is _nar_ (<Narr>), which is
also a German word.  The connected adjectives/adverbs are _narsch_
(<narrsch>) and _n?rrisch_ respectively.  This expresses less insanity than
foolishness or silliness.  The North Saxon adjective/adverb most likely to
be used to hint at insanity would be _mal_ (<mall>, from French), but it,
too, can be used to imply silliness.  (E.g., _Wees nich so mal!_ 'Don't be
so silly!')  This can even be used inanimates, such as _mallen kraam_ or
_mal tuyg_ ("stupid/silly stuff").  In that sense it transitions over to
_dwatsch_ or _appel-dwatsch_ which, semantically originating in the idea of
"contrary," tends more toward "non-sensical."  It too can be used with
inanimate and animate objects; e.g., _(appel-)dwatschen kraam_ 'nonsense'
and _(appel-)dwatschen keyrl_ 'silly, nonsense-talking guy'.

Which, most elegantly, takes me to our Jonny's question about
_beer[n?]dwatsch_, which I'll respond to in English.

Jonny, I've come across that word too and assume it's a dialectical variant
of _appel-dwatsch_, which contains the word for "apple" -- so "apple-silly."

Yes, I assume _beren-dwatsch_ contains the word for 'pear'.

(An extended version of _dwatsch_ appears to be _dwaller-watsch_.)

Apples and pears seem to imply ordinariness or inferiority.  You get this
for instance in _bakbeern-kraam_ or _bakberen-tuyg_ ("baking pear stuff" =
"dried pear stuff") in reference to "(ordinary) stuff," derogatory reference
to belongings; e.g., _Al syn bakberen-kraam ligt noch up d'n boen r?m_ (<All
sien Backbeernkraam liggt noch up'n B??n r?m.>) 'All is stuff is still lying
about in the attic.'

Apparently, LS _dwatsch_ is related to German _Quatsch_ 'nonsense'.  LS /dv/
occasionally corresponds to G /kv/, as also in _dwars_ = _quer_
'transverse', 'across'.  (Cf. German _Quark_ from Slavonic _tvarok_)

Is this worth at least 0.10 Euro(s)?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 22:58:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:58:38 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.01 (10) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.145838.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Aha! Nu hebt sey 't tou-geven, de drysten keyrls vun Plattnet-de! Tou-kamen
jaar schullen dey sik beter waren ...

Aha! Nu hebbt se 't togeven, de driesten Keerls vun Plattnet.de! Tokamen
Jahr schullen de sik beter wahrn ...

Aha! Now those scoundrels of Plattnet.de have confessed that their news of
Low Saxon (Low German) being made the first language of Schleswig-Holstein
was a mere April Fool's prank!  They'd better watch their backs next year
...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Dumm T??g an'n 1. April bi de PLATTNET-Narichten


Wi weet, Peter Harry Carstensen (CDU) un Claus M?ller (SPD) s?nd al
mennigmal to'n plattd??tschen Kl?nsnack tohopen kamen. Dor g?ng dat meist
bannig kommodig to. Man nu hebbt se dat swore Gesch?ft v?r sik, ehre
Parteien to en Koalitionsverdrag to bringen, dormit dat en niege Regeern in
Sleswig-Holsteen gifft. Wat dorbi ok wat Godes f?r't Plattd??tsche rutk?mmt,
dat weet wi nich - sch?n weer't.
Plattd??tsch as eerste Amtsspraak in't Land inf?hrn? Dat weer dumm T??ch,
wat sik PLATTNET hett infallen laten. Weer Spij??k to'n 1. April.
Velen Dank f?r de velen Mails, de wi dorto kregen hebbt.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  1 23:56:39 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:56:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (11) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.155639.0800.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (09) [E/LS]

Topic: *beer[n?]dwatsch*

Beste Reinhard,

a.s.a.p., my answer and correction!!!

Today we have got April, the first!!  No beer, no pear, but fear, this could
become a real word. I am afraid, You and all our people could be taken into.

Very smiling Greutens, with a slight  "sorry" for all of You with Your
loveable linguistic blue-eyness.

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm;
"de Swienegel"! April, April!

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (09) [E/LS]

Ron.

You are even worse than me! At the second time reading Your answer I became
aware of Your filthy things.

Haul Di fuchtig!

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology


Jonny,

Ah, nu b?n ik up lest lykers rin-vullen! Mit "swyn-eygel" hest recht,
dwaller-watschen, tuyn-snakken slip-steyrt, den du b?st! Daar hest sachs d'n
heylen dag gryn-smuystern up gyperd, dat ik un/or wen anners daar rin-pedden
dout. Un na st?nden-lang sinneyren hev ik my s?lven in-snakt dat ik dat tou
v?r al maal hoyrd or lest hev ... Oh, Jonny! Wen du Dy dat tou minst mouden
b?st, den kryg' ik Dy eyrsten-daags by de vl?nken, un den schast maal seyn,
'keyn tou lest un up 't best lachen dayt. Waar Dy! Waar Dy elk dag, elk
minuut!

Ah, so at long last I did fall into an April Fool's trap! (I guess I had it
coming karma-like after dishing it out liberally off the List a few years
ago.) I can just picture you grinning all day, waiting for me to step into
it, you rascal. And to think that after hours of pondering it I actually
managed to talk myself into believing that I have heard or read that word
before ... Goes to show you ... But be warned, Jonny, and be afraid, be very
afraid! Sometime, sooner or later, when you least expect it, I'll get you,
and I'll get you good, and then we'll see who laughs last and laughs best.
Watch your back at all times! Oh, I'd be very, yerrry afraid if I were you!
(And the same goes for any possible smirking supporter of yours on the cheap
seats of the peanut gallery).

> You are even worse than me! At the second time reading Your
> answer I became aware of Your filthy things.

"Filthy things"?! I don't even know what you're talking about (unless you've
been snooping around my laundry hamper). Might we by any chance be dealing
with that overactive imagination of yours?

Bamboozled, puzzled and ominous,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 00:56:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:56:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.01 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.1.APR.2005.165632.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

Our own Michael Montgomery ( Distinguished Professor Emeritus of English and
Linguistics at the University of South Carolina) kindly sent me a sample
file of Smoky Mountain English for a dedicated web presentation he is
planning.

He writes this:

<quote>

Attached to the message forwarded below is a sound file that you might like
to post at the anniversary
website. It contains a fine story recorded in 1939 by my coeditor for the
_Dictionary of Smoky Mountain
English_, Joseph Sargent Hall. The sound quality is not the best, but is
still quite good considering the
fact that it was recorded on aluminum disk two-thirds of a century ago.  The
speaker is Mr. Eugene Sutton of
Cataloochee, North Carolina (now within the Great Smoky Mountains National
Park), who was 43 years old
at the time of the recording.</quote><quote>Dear FolksAs promised a couple
of days ago, I am sending you herewith attached one sample excerpt from the
Joseph Hall recordings. This is a brief anecdote told by Eugene Sutton (age
43) of Cataloochee, North Carolina, about his grandfather in 1939. It's one
of the best samples in the collection. You will need Media Player to hear
this file.For those interested in further information on materials collected
by Joseph Hall, you might be interested in knowing that all of his personal
copies have been deposited in the Archives of Appalachia at East Tennessee
State University. As you can discover from the detailed finding aid at their
website (go to cass.etsu.edu/ and from there), these include not only
recordings, but also a very large body of unpublished print materials, much
of which I used in the recently published _Dictionary of Smoky Mountain
English_. That work includes a good bit of biographical information about
his as well. With best wishesMichael </quote>This is fantastic!Anyway, he
has given me permission to share this file with you.  I have placed it here
(at least for the time
being):http://www.lowlands-l.net/treasures/Joseph_Sargent_Hall.wmaEnjoy!Reinhard/Ron==============================END===================================*
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 18:18:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:18:52 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.101852.0800.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (07) [E]

<ou> to <ai> is not exactly the same as Afr. <ui> to <ai>, because Afr.
<ou> doesn't become <ai> but keeps its value, but probably this N. Irish
Engl. process had an intermediate stadium where <ou> went <ui> first, and
then <ui> became <ai>.

I'll give a tip for all non-Dutch how to pronounce <ui> easily:
first say [a] (like in Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish etc) and then say
[y](=Dutch/French <u>, German <?>, Scandinavian <y>).
So: huis = ha~?s, ha~us, ha~ys, and Spui = spa~?, spa~u, spa~y, etc.

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.01 (05) [E]
>
>Groeten, alle
>
>Dumb (even for me!) question: is this _ui to ai_ process similar to that
>which occurred in the Six Counties of the North of Ireland, _house_ to
>_hais_ ?, Or _pound_ to _paind_ ?
>
>I recall that non-Dutch also have trouble with the square in Amsterdam
named
>_Spui_, pronouncing it e.g., _spow_ or _spooee_. Something like an
unstable
>molecule, inte sant?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 18:45:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:45:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.02 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.104509.0800.>

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From: ?j??r?kr ?j??reksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Language varieties


Sorry for the long absence, was in Italy with school (10 days long).

Wij (in Belgi?) zijn op school net bezig met vergelijkende taalwetenschap,
de Indo-Europese verwantschappen e.d., niet echt diepgaand dus voor mij
niets nieuws, maar wel goed dat zo ook minder ge?nteresseerde kinderen toch
??ts leren over deze materie. Zo de stamboom, de 1ste Germaanse en de
Hoogduitse klankverschuivingen en al.
Eerlijk gezegd ben ik wel de enige van mijn klas wie dit onderwerp kan
boeien, de rest wil dat het zo rap mogelijk voorbij is 8-)
Dit is ook alleen voor sommige klassen, enkel in ASO en dan nog slechts in
de klassen die genoeg tijd over hebben en geacht worden "het aan te
kunnen" - de "slimmere" klassen om het cru te stellen.
Maar dat Limburgs en Laag-Duits talen op zich zijn, en dat men in
Oost-Nederland Laag-Duits spreekt, zo ver gaat men niet in onze lessen 8-)

Diederik Masure

Ingmar wrote:
Is it taught at school as a fact, for instance? Is anything taught about
the other Germanic languages? Here in the Netherlands we don't learn
anything about the history or relationships of our languages, but it's
obvious enough to everyone that German and English are related languages.
At secondary school, everyone has to learn a few years of English and
German (and French) as foreign languages, besides Dutch of course and
Frisian in the province of Friesland. At History class we are taught about
our ancestors the Frisians (in the North & West)), the Saxons (East &
North East) and the Franks (South), so there is some common knowledge
about this kind of things anyway. Although the facts would tell us e.g.
that in the Eastern Netherlands, where Low Saxon dialects are spoken
nowadays, no Saxons but Chamavian (Hamaland) Franks dwelled in the old
days... The Homeland of the Salii (Salian Franks) that conquered and
founded France was Salland, in the province of Overijssel, which in
present days is completely Low Saxon territory.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Welcome back, Diederik!  I hope you had loads of fun in Italy.

> Wij (in Belgi?) zijn op school net bezig met vergelijkende taalwetenschap,
> de Indo-Europese verwantschappen e.d., niet echt diepgaand dus voor
> mij niets nieuws, maar wel goed dat zo ook minder ge?nteresseerde
> kinderen toch ??ts leren over deze materie. Zo de stamboom, de 1ste
> Germaanse en de Hoogduitse klankverschuivingen en al.

Cool! U hebt geluk. Deze onderwerpen worden in scholen van de meeste andere
landen genegeerd, en daarom hebben de meeste mensen geen echt geestelijk
beeld
van hun eigen taal.

> Maar dat Limburgs en Laag-Duits talen op zich zijn, en dat men in
> Oost-Nederland Laag-Duits spreekt, zo ver gaat men niet in onze
> lessen 8-)

Hmmm ... eigenlijk "Nedersaksisch" (of "Nederduits" ~ "Platduits").

"Nederduits" is eigenlijk de naam van de West-Germaanse tak van de zich de
zustertwijgen "Nederfrankisch" en "Nedersaksisch" ontwikkelden.

Talking about "Low Franconian," folks ... Recently I found references to
_Deutsch-Niederl?ndisch_ ("German Dutch") in some literature, referring to
the Low Franconian dialects used on the German side of the borders.
Interesting!

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 18:54:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:54:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.105441.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2005.04.01 (03) [E]

On 02/04/2005, at 2:17 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  wrote:

Starting to get intriguing Ron.
on the US carnival circuit some midways had a revolting show involving
a total alcoholic who would rip up live chickens and eat them.
He was known in Carny parlance as 'A Geek'.  Looking at your Durch and
Low Saxon examples I can't help wondering.....

> Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

G'day, Tom!

The _Oxford English Dictionary_ seems to be leaning toward the theory of
"geek" belonging to the group "geck," "gack" and "gowk."  So your hunch
seems to be on the right track.

Interestingly, Scots _gowk_ 'fool' also means 'cuckoo'. Earlier?  Is it a
coincidence that in many languages people refer to cuckoos when indicating
that someone isn't "right in the head"?  In German, such a person has a
"bird" (_Vogel_).  Might all this have something to do with the cuckoo's odd
behavior, including its habit of tricking other birds into raising its
young?

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 23:27:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:27:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.152730.0800.>

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From: speegled at slu.edu <speegled at slu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]

I don't think the old <ui> in Afrikaans is anywhere near extinct.  I hear
my son, who is 5 years old, say "ons is by die huis" beautifully,
exaggerating the difference between "by" and "huis".  He must have heard it
somewhere... I also, over the last few days, have tried to find examples
in songs or poems where people rhyme <ui> with <ai>, and I couldn't.  I
did find many examples where people rhyme "u" with "i", though.

"Die naald bly dwaal net so regs van nul,
want ek maak net soos ek wil."

And who could ever forget:

"Dit was 'n moerse klug,
dit was PW se gesig"

Would rhyming "u" with "i" sound OK in the other Lowlands languages?

Darrin

> <ou> to <ai> is not exactly the same as Afr. <ui> to <ai>, because Afr.
> <ou> doesn't become <ai> but keeps its value, but probably this N. Irish
> Engl. process had an intermediate stadium where <ou> went <ui> first, and
> then <ui> became <ai>.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Darrin!

Rounded vowels and their unrounded equivalents occasionally occur in Low
Saxon rhymes, especially the following:


E.g., from poems by Klaus Groth (http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/):

>From "Min Modersprak":

   Min Modersprak, wa klingst du SCH?N!
   Wa b?st du mi vertrut!
   Weer ok min Hart as Stahl un STEEN,
   du drevst den Stolt herut.

   Myn mouder-spraak, wa? klingst du SCHOYN!
   Wa? b?st du my vertruud!
   Weyr ook myn hart as staal un STEYN,
   du dreyvst d?n stolt heruut.

   My native tongue, how sweet you sound!
   I?m so at home with you!
   And if my heart were steel and stone,
   You?d purge it of its pride.

>From "Plattd?tsch in Chicago":

   De awer, de vun Hus un Klus
   De Not drev, dat GESCHICK,
   De, de der gan un wannern mu?
   Un s?ken na dat GL?CK

   Dey aver, dey vun huus un kluus?
   Dey nood dreyv?, dat GESCHIK,
   Dey, dey der gaan un wannern muss
   Un s?yken na dat GL?K

   But those that had to leave their homes,
   Driven by want, by fate,
   Those that were forced to emigrate
   To try their luck elsewhere

From: "De M?l":

   De Pock quarkt int Rohr,
   De Voss bru?t int Moor,
   Un wit inne Feern schallt Gesank.
   Min Hart stiggt to H?CH,
   Ik weet ni, wa?k SEEG,
   De Thran lopt de Backen hentlank.

   Dey pok kwarkt in ?t roor,
   Dey voss bruu?dt in ?t moor,
   Un wyd in dey veyrn schalt gesang.
   Myn hart stigt tou H?YG?.
   Ik weet ni, wa? ?k SEYG?.
   Dey traan?n loupt dey bakken hentlang.

   Frogs croak among the reeds,
   Foxes banter on the moor,
   And singing is heard from afar.
   My heart takes a leap,
   My eyesight?s a blur,
   And tears are streaming down my cheeks.

>From "Dat Moor":

   De Borrn bewegt sik op un dal,
   As gingst du langs en b?ken Bahl,
   Dat Water sch?lpert inne Graff,
   De Grasnarv bewert op un af;
   Dat geit hendal, dat geit TOH?CH
   So lisen as en KINNERWEEG.

   Dey borr?n beweegt sik op un daal,
   As gingst du langs eyn b?yken baal.
   Dat water sch?lpert in dey grav.
   Dey grasnarv? bevert op un af.
   Dat gayt hendaal, dat gayt TOUH?YG?
   So lysen as eyn KINDER-WEYG?.

   The ground keeps moving up and down.
   It?s like walking on a beech-wood board.
   The water?s sloshing in the ditch.
   The turf keeps quaking up and off.
   Now it goes down, now it goes up
   As gently as a baby?s cradle.

>From "Hartleed":

   Un kumt he nu un nimmermehr,
   Wo schall ik eenmal HIN!
   So sack ik as dat Lof na Eer
   V?r Schimp un Schann un S?NN!?

   Un kumt hey nu un nimmer meyr,
   Waar schal ik eynmaal HIN?
   So sak ik as dat louv na eyrd?
   V?r schimp un schan un S?N!?

   What if he?ll never be around?
   I?d leave. But to what place?
   Like dead leaves I?d fall to the ground
   For shame, sin and disgrace.?


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  2 23:30:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:30:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (11) [E/LS]

Leeve Reinhard,

nu hevvt wi dennen tweeden Aprildag!

Du schreevst:

> Might we by any chance be dealing
> with that overactive imagination of yours?

Dit kunn ick meist ne gl??ven:
> Apples and pears seem to imply ordinariness or inferiority.  You get this
> for instance in _bakbeern-kraam_ or _bakberen-tuyg_ ("baking pear stuff" =
> "dried pear stuff") in reference to "(ordinary) stuff," derogatory
> reference
> to belongings; e.g., _Al syn bakberen-kraam ligt noch up d'n boen r?m_
> (<All
> sien Backbeernkraam liggt noch up'n B??n r?m.>) 'All is stuff is still
> lying
> about in the attic.'
Ick dach', wat Du mi nu all foot haar'st. Ick kenn d?sse Snacks ne, man j?st
"...f??r 'n Appel un' 'n Ei..', E: "very cheap".

Na- nu mutt ick mi woll tauk??mstig j?mmer 'no achtern ?mdreihen', wenn ick
Di wat schriiven dau?

Spooss mutt ween!

Allerbest Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Reinhard, Lowlanners,

"one word a day":

yesterday I heard another interesting and still used LS-word:

*Weet*:
HG: '[halbnasses Heu, zum weiteren Trocknen im] ''Schwad''
E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'', ''row'' ???
(help needed, at this point!).

My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but in
LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] j?ten', E: of course! 'to
weed'.
Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in the good old
sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.

I guess it to be remarkable- it could be Low-Saxon's nearly forgotten
connection to E: 'wet', and I don't know any HG-word even in the near.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 02:18:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:18:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.181809.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (03) [E]

On 02/04/2005, at 2:17 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> Is it a
> coincidence that in many languages people refer to cuckoos when
> indicating
> that someone isn't "right in the head"?  In German, such a person has a
> "bird" (_Vogel_).
Aye and in my part of Scotland they'd say ''e went cookoo.'
>   Might all this have something to do with the cuckoo's odd
> behavior, including its habit of tricking other birds into raising its
> young?
>
Or could it be merely onomatopoeic, based on the noises a totally
mental patient can make ?
Interestingly enough while we play Peek a Boo, or Peep Boo, with kids I
discovered on the Trans Siberian Express that Russian kids peep out
saying 'Cuckoo'.
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hey, Tom!

> Or could it be merely onomatopoeic, based on the noises a totally
> mental patient can make ?

Well, yeah ... But how about both of the above?

> Interestingly enough while we play Peek a Boo, or Peep Boo, with kids I
> discovered on the Trans Siberian Express that Russian kids peep out
> saying 'Cuckoo'.

Yes, but that could be a German loan, based on _Kucku(k)!_, _Kuku(uk)_,
etc., which I take as being a "confluence" of making a suprising sound (cf.
English "(peek a) boo") with simultaneous reference to _gucken_ or _kucken_
'look' (cf. Low Saxon _kyken_ <kieken>, Dutch _kijken_, Afrikaans _kyk_, and
supposedly Old or Middle Flemish-derived _keek_ in Scots). The "cuckoo"
twist may well be an afterthought.

Incidentally, in Low Saxon, Missingsch and in Missingsch-based North German
dialects, the equivalent of "peek a boo!" is _mume (mume) ... kieks!_.  You
say the _mume_ part (with a low voice) while hidden and the _kieks_ part
(with a high voice) while (re)appearing. _Kyksen_ <kieksen> can be used to
mean 'to peek'.  I assume the _mume_ part is related to "mumming," German
_(ver)mummen_, etc., thus to "disguising."

Incidentally, Scots _gowk_ appears to be derived from Old Norse _gaukr_ or
_gj?kr_, attested no earlier  than the 14th century.  It seems to have
overlapped with _gawk_ and _gawkie_ in the sense of 'fool', though I assume
the latter is related to 'to gawk'.  Or are the two related?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 03:28:03 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:28:03 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Passing" 2005.04.02 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.2.APR.2005.192803.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Passing

To all List members who are practising Roman Catholics condolences on the
passing of Pope John Paul II, a man of peace and compassion.

 Ave atque vale!  Requiescat in pace!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 19:33:37 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:33:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.03 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.123337.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]

[...]

> Would rhyming "u" with "i" sound OK in the other
> Lowlands languages?
>
> Darrin

Hallo,

'Not-perfect' rhyming is generally accepted  [at least
in the Germanic languages] when the two rhyming sounds
have the same number [and kind] of distinctive
features, unless one.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 19:35:01 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:35:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Music" 2005.04.03 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.123501.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]

Ron posted several poems by Klaus Groth. I'd like to remark that some of
them are contained on Hannes Wader's album "Plattdeutsche Lieder", and that
"De Moel" is set to the tune of "Kelly, the boy from Killanne", while
"Hartleed" is sung to the tune of "The four Marys": "Last night there were
four Marys, tonight there'll be but three: there was Mary Seaton, and Mary
Beaton, and Mary Carmichael, and me."

Which brings me to something I have been wondering about for a while.

Now this is funny... I was going to say that I always thought that Tolkien's
Troll Song from the Fellowship of the Ring should be sung to the tune of
"The fox went out on a chilly night". So I just googled the first line in
order to quote the first verse or so... and found the following on
http://www.electricpenguin.com/blatherings/lotr/archives/00000047.html:

"Regarding tunes: Tolkien said that the tune he had in mind when writing
Sam's troll song (A troll sat alone on a seat of stone...) was The Fox (the
fox went out on a chilly night...) I always heard it to that tune before I
discovered that that was what he intended."

Oh well...

Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 19:36:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:36:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.03 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.123642.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.02 (02) [D/E]

> From: ?j??r?kr ?j??reksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Sorry for the long absence, was in Italy with school (10 days long).
>
> Wij (in Belgi?) zijn op school net bezig met vergelijkende
> taalwetenschap,
> de Indo-Europese verwantschappen e.d., niet echt diepgaand dus voor mij
> niets nieuws, maar wel goed dat zo ook minder ge?nteresseerde kinderen
> toch
> ??ts leren over deze materie. Zo de stamboom, de 1ste Germaanse en de
> Hoogduitse klankverschuivingen en al.
> Eerlijk gezegd ben ik wel de enige van mijn klas wie dit onderwerp kan
> boeien, de rest wil dat het zo rap mogelijk voorbij is 8-)
> Dit is ook alleen voor sommige klassen, enkel in ASO en dan nog
> slechts in
> de klassen die genoeg tijd over hebben en geacht worden "het aan te
> kunnen" - de "slimmere" klassen om het cru te stellen.
> Maar dat Limburgs en Laag-Duits talen op zich zijn, en dat men in
> Oost-Nederland Laag-Duits spreekt, zo ver gaat men niet in onze lessen
> 8-)
>
> Diederik Masure

Interessant. Ikzelf heb dat tijdens mijn schooltijd mezelf uit boeken
aangeleerd..

Leren jullie wel iets over het Fries, bijvoorbeeld ? En dat dat ook in
Duitsland nog op enkele plekken wordt gesproken?

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr  3 20:22:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:22:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.132254.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> You
say the _mume_ part (with a low voice) while hidden and the _kieks_ part
(with a high voice) while (re)appearing. _Kyksen_ <kieksen> can be used to
mean 'to peek'.  I assume the _mume_ part is related to "mumming," German
_(ver)mummen_, etc., thus to "disguising."<

The Sprach Bockhaus has
mumm = Schallwort mit halboffenem Mund: er wagt nicht mumm zu sagen. But
gives no origin.

SBH also gives the origin of mummen/mummeln/ die Mumme as being French.

Yet CT Onions in OED says the French may have borrowed it from the German
and quotes

MDu momme  Du mom = mask  MLG mummen = mask / disguise. But ends by saying
that the relative choronology is obscure!

OED also says its origins are the same as English : to keep mum about
something. And that your Mummenschanze gave us mumchance !

Eric Partridge seems to ignore any Germanic origins and leans towards the
idea of a mask being the original concept :see  OF momer   which perhaps
meant to grimace with astonishment or fear. And relates it to both Sp and
Port momo = a grimace  and the Fr Momo! = a cry of astonishment.

I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers", who
were also known as 'Guisers'!

Heather

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but
in
LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] j????ten', E: of course! 'to
weed'.
Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in the good old
sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.

I guess it to be remarkable- it could be Low-Saxon's nearly forgotten
connection to E: 'wet', and I don't know any HG-word even in the near.<

Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    w??t...   which
is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr

So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten

Heather

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> ''Schwad'' E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'',
> ''row'' ???
(help needed, at this point!).<

Sorry for the 3 dribbles of information: it takes time to look these (very
interesting) things up

Schwad / Schwaden is in the Sprach Bockhaus as :    Reihe hingem??hten oder
auf lange Zeilen geharkten Grases oder Getreides

>>From which we get English : swath (swathe   Northen English)    i.e. to cut
a swath through the grass

Fascinating!

Thanks

Heather

PS what's the Word of Today?

----------

From: Dirk Baack <baack at tu-harburg.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (09) [E/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> I guess the most likely North Saxon equivalent is _nar_ (<Narr>), which is
> also a German word.  The connected adjectives/adverbs are _narsch_
> (<narrsch>) and _n??rrisch_ respectively.  This expresses less insanity
> than
> foolishness or silliness.  The North Saxon adjective/adverb most likely to
> be used to hint at insanity would be _mal_ (<mall>, from French), but it,
> too, can be used to imply silliness.  (E.g., _Wees nich so mal!_ 'Don't be
> so silly!')  This can even be used inanimates, such as _mallen kraam_ or
> _mal tuyg_ ("stupid/silly stuff").  In that sense it transitions over to
> _dwatsch_ or _appel-dwatsch_ which, semantically originating in the idea
> of
> "contrary," tends more toward "non-sensical."  It too can be used with
> inanimate and animate objects; e.g., _(appel-)dwatschen kraam_ 'nonsense'
> and _(appel-)dwatschen keyrl_ 'silly, nonsense-talking guy'.
>
Just to complete this: Don't forget "Narnkraam", which is a quite common
noun, at least here (Loomst, between Bremerlee (Jonny Meibohn and
Hamborg (Ron)).

IMHO "mall" isn't used so often. Well, the Asterix translation uses
quite often words like "Mallb??dels", De s??nd mall, de R??mers" and so on.
But I don't hear "mall" so often in daily communication here.

Dirk

--
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Dirk Baack    elektronische Post: Dirk at baack-lamstedt.de |
+----------------------------------------------------------+

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (03) [E]

Tom McRae wrote:

> > Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> > (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.

How I wish my parents had known that before they named me Gabriele Erika
Kahn... making my initials "GEK"... or maybe they did? :-P

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (11) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:

> before ... Goes to show you ... But be warned, Jonny, and be afraid, be
very
> afraid! Sometime, sooner or later, when you least expect it, I'll get you,
> and I'll get you good, and then we'll see who laughs last and laughs best.
> Watch your back at all times! Oh, I'd be very, yerrry afraid if I were
you!
> (And the same goes for any possible smirking supporter of yours on the
cheap
> seats of the peanut gallery).

Who could you possibly be referring to? I'll have you know that I, for
example, absolutely cannot condone Jonny's respectless behaviour. Schaam di
wat, Aprilbohm! (Wish I had thought of it first, but Ron would never have
trusted me in the first place - discrimination, that is).

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Heather (above):

> Sorry for the 3 dribbles of information: it takes time to look these (very
> interesting) things up

Don't worry about it.  That's a small prize to pay for being in the presence
of an avid and capable fellow-etymologizer.

> I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers", who
> were also known as 'Guisers'!

I had hoped that "mummy" (Dutch _mummie_, German _Mumie_ etc.) was related
to it.  ("Wrapped up," see?)  But alas, this does not pan out.  In the case
of English it comes from Norman French _mumie_, which denotes a bitumenous
substance used for embalming, going back to Arabic ??????? ???? (??????????) _m??miy??`
(qub??r??)_ '(sepulchral) bitumen'.  Ah, well ...
('Mummy' = 'preserved corps' is ??????? ???? _m??miy??`_ in Modern Arabic.)

In Low Saxon, _mummeln_ ~ _m??mmeln_ means 'to mumble', 'to murmur;, cf.
German _murmeln_, Dutch _mompelen_, _murmuring_.  I assume this is a case of
either /r/ or /p/ assimilation to /m/, not one of actual relationship with
the afore-mentioned words.

But here's an interesting one: Low Saxon _mummel_ ~ _m??mmel_ 'water-lily'.
What's that about?  (And Dutch _plomp_ for the same?)  Any relation with
_murmel_ < _marmel_ 'marble'?

About 'wet':


> Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    w??t...   which
> is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr
>
> So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten

If there were a German cognate of 'wet', I'd exprect *_wass_ or *_wess_.  I
assume that _waten_ 'to wade' is a Low Saxon loan (< _waten_ ~ _waden_), as
is _Watt_ (< _wat_); otherwise I'd expect *_wassen_ and *_Wass_.

Gabriele (above):

> How I wish my parents had known that before they named me Gabriele Erika
> Kahn... making my initials "GEK"... or maybe they did? :-P


Och, if they did, I'm sure they meant it in the best possible sense.  (What
choice did they have, poor things?)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 00:19:15 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:19:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (05) [E]
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Beste Ron,

You are going on to make Your threat come true:

>> "Waar Dy elk dag, elk
>> minuut!"

You wrote:

> Don't worry about it.  That's a small prize to pay for being in the
> presence
> of an avid and capable fellow-etymologizer.

In what meaning did You use 'avid'? Avid for fame or just hungry and greedy?
I don't need any fame, I don't like it at the end, but I have been infected
to be hungry (in permanence)  by one enthusiastic, in a positiv sense
fanatizised, honorable and loveable "Saxonist". His name is R.F. Hahn!

To my etymological capability: there is nothing like that! It's just a
collector's passion, and I like to offer and to dicuss it with people of the
LL-kind. Included is, again, a man I have learned to see him "flip" out,
sometimes, very emotionally. But just and alone, when OUR jointed and common
Low-Saxon, with all its varieties, seems to be in whatever a danger.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for sharing all of that, Jonny.

I'm glad you added the "in a positiv sense" and "honorable and loveable"
bits, for you could have fooled me otherwise.  Well, yes, I resemble those
remarks.

> Included is, again, a man I have learned to see him "flip" out,
> sometimes, very emotionally.

I can't help it, un-Lowlandic though it may seem.  Must be my hot-blooded
Slavonic genes or family culture, or wherever some of my mysterious
ancestors hailed from.  (My brother once suggested origins farther east than
that, probably in an attempt to make sense of his even more Siberian looks.)
:-)

> To my etymological capability:

Actually, I was referring to our Heather's etymological passion and acumen.
However, I guess I might as well have meant you.  So, are you going to take
all those flatteries back now?

Hold Dy vuchtig (man nich altou vuchtig)!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 01:08:47 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:08:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.3.APR.2005.180847.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology (E/Go/Tur) 2005.04.03


From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Dear Lowlanders,

My question probably involves a sheer coincidence, although I am curious
whether it might instead be an example of Germanic-Turkic linguistic
contact. Many of you have heard of the personality cult of the President of
Turkmenistan, Mr. Saparmurat Niiyazov, who insists on calling himself
"Turkmenbashi" or "Father of Turkmen", much as Kemal Ataturk in Turkey.

Niyazov has written two volumes of poetry and general observations with an
occasional wise instruction on life (_pace_ Chairman Mao), and has just
about chased away all other books in his country.

The name of the two-volume work is "Ruhnama", which is usually translated as
"Book of the Spirit". It strikes me that the Ostrogothic would have been
_Runa_ (sacred writing) and _ahma_ (spirit), thus "sacred writing of the
spirit". Also, we know that Goths and Tatars (speaking Turkic) mingled
extensively in the Crimea for many centuries.

Did Gothic lend any such vocabulary to Turkic, or is it sheer coincidence?
Do we have a Turcologist handy (hint! hint!) who can straighten this one out
for me?

Thanks!

Arthur

----------

From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Kukushka (???????) is indeed the name of the cuckoo bird in Russian,
and I do think that the connection between the two is recognized by
native speakers.
Cheers!
-Ian

On 2-Apr-05, at 7:18 PM, Lowlands-L wrote:
>> Interestingly enough while we play Peek a Boo, or Peep Boo, with kids
>> I
>> discovered on the Trans Siberian Express that Russian kids peep out
>> saying 'Cuckoo'.
>
> Yes, but that could be a German loan, based on _Kucku(k)!_, _Kuku(uk)_,
> etc., which I take as being a "confluence" of making a suprising sound
> (cf.
> English "(peek a) boo") with simultaneous reference to _gucken_ or
> _kucken_
> 'look' (cf. Low Saxon _kyken_ <kieken>, Dutch _kijken_, Afrikaans
> _kyk_, and
> supposedly Old or Middle Flemish-derived _keek_ in Scots). The "cuckoo"
> twist may well be an afterthought.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Wow, Arthur! Talking about "avid etymologizer" ...

Gothic _runa_ appears to be general Germanic, related to English "rune,"
which is related to German _raunen_ 'to whisper', 'to speak in a low voice',
usually implying secretive communiction.  Hence, I understand "runic
writing" and "runic letters" to have originated as sacred and thus
privileged information, as information that was passed on secretly.

Turkmen (and other Turkic) _Ruhnama_ ~ _Ruhname_ is a compound noun
consisting of _ruh_ and _nama_ (not *_ruhn_+_ahma_).  In fact, it isn't
Turkic at all but is derived from Iranic (Persian): ??? _r?h_ (< Arabic ???
_r??_) 'spirit', 'soul' + ???? _n?ma_ ~ _n?me_ 'record', 'document',
'letter', 'book'.

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news.  I know it would have been nice.

> who insists on calling himself "Turkmenbashi" or "Father of Turkmen",

Actually, literally "Turkmen-Head."  Turkic _ba?_ ("bash," written _ba?_ in
Turkish and Azeri) means 'head' and in extension 'leader' (_F?hrer_) or
'chieftain'.   While perhaps rather presumptuous, _T?rkmenba??_  -- "Head
Turkmen" or "Turkmen Leader" or even "Head Turkmen" -- sounds a lot less
presumptuous than _T?rkmenatas?_ or *_Atat?rkmen_ "Turkmen Father" would
sound.  Of course, this my "defense" is limited to the name.

Hello, Ian!  Congratulations on your speakers' corner debut and your
information!  Welcome at Lowlands-L.  It's great you joined us.

> Kukushka (???????)

So I take it you think it's not a loan, is some sort of onopatopoetic
"universal."  Also, I take it ??????? _kuku?ka_ is the diminutive form of
*????? *_kukuk_ (which may now be archaic or defunct).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 14:01:01 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:01:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.04 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.070101.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.01 (12) [E]

What a great recording!  It reminds me so much of my grandmother who was
born, raised, and lived her entire life in Tennessee.  She was born in 1898
which would have been about the time the speaker was born.  What a purty way
of talkin'!

Mark Brooks

***

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

Our own Michael Montgomery ( Distinguished Professor Emeritus of English and
Linguistics at the University of South Carolina) kindly sent me a sample
file of Smoky Mountain English for a dedicated web presentation he is
planning.

He writes this:

<quote>

Attached to the message forwarded below is a sound file that you might like
to post at the anniversary website. It contains a fine story recorded in
1939 by my coeditor for the _Dictionary of Smoky Mountain English_, Joseph
Sargent Hall. The sound quality is not the best, but is still quite good
considering the fact that it was recorded on aluminum disk two-thirds of a
century ago.  The speaker is Mr. Eugene Sutton of Cataloochee, North
Carolina (now within the Great Smoky Mountains National Park), who was 43
years old at the time of the recording.

</quote>

<quote>

Dear Folks

As promised a couple of days ago, I am sending you herewith attached one
sample excerpt from the Joseph Hall recordings. This is a brief anecdote
told by Eugene Sutton (age 43) of Cataloochee, North Carolina, about his
grandfather in 1939.

It's one of the best samples in the collection. You will need Media Player
to hear this file.For those interested in further information on materials
collected by Joseph Hall, you might be interested in knowing that all of his
personal copies have been deposited in the Archives of Appalachia at East
Tennessee State University. As you can discover from the detailed finding
aid at their website (go to cass.etsu.edu/ and from there), these include
not only recordings, but also a very large body of unpublished print
materials, much of which I used in the recently published _Dictionary of
Smoky Mountain English_. That work includes a good bit of biographical
information about his as well. With best wishes

Michael

</quote>

This is fantastic!

Anyway, he has given me permission to share this file with you.  I have
placed
it here (at least for the time being):
http://www.lowlands-l.net/treasures/Joseph_Sargent_Hall.wma

Enjoy!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 14:26:25 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:26:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.072625.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (06) [E]


Ron wrote in reply to Arthur Jones:
"Gothic _runa_ appears to be general Germanic, related to English "rune,"
which is related to German _raunen_ 'to whisper', 'to speak in a low voice',
usually implying secretive communiction. Hence, I understand "runic writing"
and "runic letters" to have originated as sacred and thus privileged
information, as information that was passed on secretly."

Irish has _r?n_ for "secret" and thus _r?na?_ for "secretary". I have always
noted the clear link with "rune", and suspected it to be a borrowing from
Old Norse, although exactly how I do not know. Most Norse borrowings in
Irish relate to the sea and maritime occupations, for obvious reasons.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Cr?ost?ir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Cr?ost?ir.  Isn't that interesting?

Is there any particular reason why you suspect it to be an Old Norse loan?
Could it not have reached Irish from Old English?

Old English, too, has _r?n_ in the sense of 'secret', 'mystery' (earliest
attestation in the _Lindisfarn Gospel_ of 950), apparently not as a Norse
loan but as a native word with the assumedly secondary meanings 'mysterious
saying', 'confidential counsel', also 'runic letter', 'written language',
'song', 'cry', 'language variety'.  This developed into the now archaic word
_roun_ ~ _roune_ ~ _rowne_.  The word _rune_ in the specific sense of
'Nordic written character' came to be (re)introduced (supposedly from
Danish) in the 17th century with Nordic studies.  In more recent times, this
has been extended to scripts of similar (often astonishingly similar) look,
such as Old Hungarian (Sz?kely-Magyar) and Old (Orkhon) Turkic runes, as
well as some non-runic scripts such as several discovered in Siberia and
North America.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:23:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:23:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2005.04.04 (03) [LS]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.142314.0700.>

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From: Helge Willkowei <helge.willkowei at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Events"

Moin leve Leeglanners,

ok dit Jahr weer maakt de "Studentenkring Plattd??tsk" in Griepswold
(V?rpommern) 'n V?rdragsrieg'. Ik doch, dat dat viellicht de een of
anner gifft, de dat interesseren deit. Wenn well van jo v?rbikieken
will, deen wi uns freien. Hier uns Pressmitdelen:

***
Vortragsreihe 2005: "Wat de jungen L?d' in'n Kopp hebben."
Nachwuchsforschen im Niederdeutschen.

Wedder ?ne Reig? van plattd??tsche V?rdr?g? in?e Staddbiblioteek van ?n
Prillmaand af an

Bina ?n heil Jor verl?den, do f?ng dat an mit dei ierste Reig? van
V?rdr?g? ?ver dei plattd??tsche Sprak. Nu sall dat wieder gan, ?mdat
Plattd??tsch ?n Plaats mutt kriegen in unse Stadd, wat dat verdeinen
deit un wat dor nu bi helpen sall, all dei B?rgers, un hier up?t v?rnst
dei Plattsnackers s?lven, ?ne lude Stemm? tau g?ven. Dei Laag? van?e
anner grote Sprak in D??tschland (un Nedderland), dei is ?verleeg un
elennig. In?t Tieds?ller van dei Meedjen is Platt bina nich tau sein un
tau h?ren nich. Un Ji weiten woll, dat allens, wat ein nich tau sein
kriegen deit in?t Kiekschapp or nich tau h?ren is in?t H?rschapp, dat
dat - so d?cht uns dat - gor nich dor is nich, keinein is bi, dor ?ver
tau snacken. Disse Sak is nich nieg? nich, man sei ward na?e Kant
schaven, un dat ok van dei Plattsnackers s?lven.
Dor willen wi g?genan gan un versoiken tau wiesen, wat dei Problemen
s?nd mit?t Plattd??tsch. Dit Jor s?len keine bekannten W?tenschoppsl?d?
berichten nich, dit Mal snacken junge L?d?, dei ?n b?ten s?len purren,
?ver Plattd??tsch natausinnen. Plaant s?nd dei nakamen V?rdr?g?
(Beginneltied: Klock 18.00, Uurt: Kellerwelft in?e Staddbiblioteek):

1. 21.04.2005, Thorsten Filter (Griepswold, in Platt): ?Olle Sprak,
niege W??rd?.? Niew??rd? in?t Plattd??tsch? (Neologismen im
Niederdeutschen?).

2. 28.04.2005, Birte Arendt (Griepswold): ?Disse Sprak, de is ok Heimat
f?r mi.? Woans junge L?d? denken daun ?ver eer Plattd??tsch
(Spracheinstellungen der j?ngeren Generation zu ihrem Platt).

3. 12.05.2005, Helge Willkowei (Griepswold): ?Plattd?tsk bi d?Arbeid.?
Sprakpl?g? bi junge Oostfreesen (Sprachpflege bei jungen Ostfriesen).

4. 26.05.2005, Enrico Lippmann (Darmstadt): ?Mit quade L?d? ward nich
Platt snackt.? ?ver den versch?len Bruk van Platt (Zur situativen
Varianz beim Plattgebrauch).

5. 09.06.2005, Filmemoker GbR/Martin Hermann & Ralf Vielhauer
(Sulingen): ?De Apparatspot.? Filmwiesing? un Kl?nrund? (Filmvorf?hrung
und Diskussion).

6. 23.06.2005, Mikko Bentlin (Griepswold): ?Plattd??tsch-finnsch
Sprakgewrangel.? Plattd??tsche W??rd? in?t Finnsch (Niederdeutsches im
Finnischen).

7. 07.07.2005, Horst Giencke/Thorsten Filter (Griepswold):  ?Schrieven
as de Snavel wussen is?? Bruken wi faste Schrievr?gels f?r Plattd??tsch?
(Brauchen wir Rechtschreibnormierungen im Niederdeutschen?)

So hebben wi nu V?rdr?g? ?ver Sprakplaning? un Sprakroik, ?ver Sprakbruk
un Sprakinstelling?. Plattd??tsche L?nw??rd? in?t Finnsch laten uns ?n
b?ten ?ver dei Kimm kieken. Dat ?Raumschiff Enterprise?-J?kelst?ck ?De
Apparatspott?, dei sall f?r?t ierste Mal w?sen warden in Griepswold. Un
bi?t End? willen wi ?ne heite Sak besnacken: ?ne faste Noorm f?r ?ne
plattd??tsche Rechtschrieving?. Wi willen nich allein ?VER Plattd??tsch
snacken, man s?lven ok IN Plattd??tsch r?den, dor?m warden dit Mal ok ?n
por V?rdr?g? in Platt hollen, mit den iersten geit dat upst?dens los.
Denn dei, wat willen, dat Platt mier sall bruukt warden, dei sullen dat
ok s?lven wiesen, mannich?
Wi wullen uns bannig froigen wullen wi, wenn Ji van?n Prillmaand af an
wedder na?t Kellerwelft in?e Staddbiblioteek kamen deeden.

Thorsten Filter & Birte Arendt
Studierendeninitiative Plattdeutsch

***
Gr?ten!
-helge

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:24:28 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:24:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.142428.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.04 (01) [E]

It's amazing what we lose - and how few generations take us back so far. My
own gandmother died in 1960 and was born about 1880.  She always called a
funnel a "tundish", and coals in a fire didn't glow, they "got a gleed on".
She originated from the Leicestershire/Nottingham border area.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:26:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:26:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.04.04 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.142632.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.03.25 (02) [E]

> Hello Paul,

I'm sorry to have kept you waiting for an answer to your posting: I have
been away for a few days. I tried to contact you through your
stingray-address, but for some mysterious reason my message was refused. So
I am trying to reach you via Lowlands. Anyway, you can send your questions.
I am looking forward to helping you on the road to mastering the Dutch
language.

Kind regards,

Roger

> From: "Roger Hondshoven" <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.03.22 (01) [E
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> I would be quite happy to assist you in your endeavour to master the Dutch
> language. Just let me know how I might help you.
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger
>
> > From: Paul J.M. Sweet <stingray at terabolic.net>
> > Subject: Introduction
> >
> > Mar. 22, 2005
> >
> > I recently joined this list as I am about to embark on learning standard
> > Dutch
> > to get a reading knowledge of the language, and perhaps a writing one
too!
> > So
> > if any Dutch-speakers and -writers can help me practise and develop my
> Dutch
> > literacy it would be great.
> >
> > I'm also interested in the movement to preserve Low Saxon and its
> > development as
> > a standard written language. And this is the best place to watch
advances
> in
> > this as they occur, with so many speakers and writers of the language on
> > this
> > list closely monitoring, stimulating, and initiating these developments.
> >
> > Paul/P.J.M. Sweet

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.03.25 (02) [E]

Hello Paul,

I'm sorry to have kept you waiting for an answer to your posting: I have
been away for a few days. You can send your questions. I am looking forward
to helping you on the road to mastering the Dutch language.

Kind regards,

Roger

PS. For some mysterious reason my message was refused: below you can find
more details about this mishap. Hope it's going to work this time.
Kan het bericht niet verzenden omdat ??n van de geadresseerden door de
server is geweigerd. Het geweigerde e-mailadres is
stingray at terabolic.terabolic.com. Onderwerp 'Re: Your offer to help me learn
Dutch. Paul Sweet, Mar. 26, 2005', Account: 'in.telenet.be', Server:
'uit.telenet.be', Protocol: SMTP, Reactie van server: '450
<stingray at terabolic.terabolic.com>: Recipient address rejected: Domain not
found', Poort: 25, Beveiligd(SSL): Nee, Serverfout: 450, Foutnummer:
0x800CCC79

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:27:51 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:27:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.04 (06) [A/E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.142751.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]

Haai almal,

Darrin, die /ui/ na /ai/ verskuiwing is nie tipies in Afrikaans nie,
net 'n liederlike tendens hier op die Rand.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

>I don't think the old <ui> in Afrikaans is anywhere near extinct.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr  4 21:32:20 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:32:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.4.APR.2005.143220.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (04) [E]


Ron wrote:
"Is there any particular reason why you suspect it to be an Old Norse loan?
Could it not have reached Irish from Old English?"

Irish contact with the Vikings and their language was more frequent than
contact with speakers of Old English. When the Anglo-Normans invaded in
1169, they brought Norman French loans with them. There are a number of Old
English loans in Irish - immediately, _b?c?s_ 'bakery' springs to mind - but
they are few compared to Old Norse. Irish _r?n_ may be one. I have an open
mind.

If it was an Old English loan I would expect it to be limited to the area of
the former Pale (roughly Dublin and as far north as south Louth), where Old
English appears to have been spoken most (Fingalian, a relation of Yola,
appears to represent its dying embers), yet _r?n_ seems to be represented in
most Irish variants, leading me to suspect that Norse sea travel dispersed
it, or that it is a native Irish term that is only coincidentally identical
to Old English and Old Norse.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Hi all,
Tom Mc Rae said that Russian kids peep out saying 'Cuckoo'.
Interesting! I grew up saying exactly that (or rather koekoe!) and
think it relates to 'koekeloer'. Another word probably related is
'koewie!' for hello!
Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Hi all,

Ian Pollock referred to Kukushka and Ron remarked: I take it ???????
_kuku?ka_ is
the diminutive form of *????? *_kukuk_ (which may now be archaic or
defunct).

My maternal great-grandmother's maiden name was Kukuk but the name is not
typical amongst Afrikaner surnames.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Dear Heather, Dirk, Ron, Dirk, Tom & Gabriele

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

In Afrikaans 'vermom' = disguised. According to antique English practise
May & Christmas festivities were celebrated by performers in costume, called
'mummers' (& watch 'guise'; it comes up again, hey!
So also 'kyk' = look. Consider the Scots 'keek' meaning the same.

> You say the _mume_ part (with a low voice) while hidden and the _kieks_
part
> (with a high voice) while (re)appearing. _Kyksen_ <kieksen> can be used to
> mean 'to peek'.  I assume the _mume_ part is related to "mumming," German
> _(ver)mummen_, etc., thus to "disguising."

I therefore incline to the belief that this (the practice as well as the
terminology) has an ancient Teutonic, if not even Germanic origin.

> I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers", who
> were also known as 'Guisers'!

I hope we're talking about the same thing, but the Afrikaans 'onkruid' &
'kruie', meaning in the first place 'weeds' & in the second 'herbs'.
For English 'weed' I think the only Afrikaans near enough is 'weiding' =
'grazing' (the pasture).
Pardon me while I follow this trail: English 'wheat' used in OE to mean
'white' (it was the 'white' grain). Another word from that time is for those
birds called 'wheatears', which meant in OE 'white arse'. They don't eat
wheat, they don't have ears, they don't look like or like ears of corn, but
they do have a white rump, the only part of their body that is.
Afrikaans 'Wet' & 'weet' have a common origin, referring in the first case
to 'the Law' & in the second to 'what you know'. I think these are related
to the Modern (sort of) English 'wot' = know, as in, "A garden is a lovesome
thing, God wot." The related German is I believe 'weisse' = to know.

>My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but
in
> LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] j??ten', E: of course! 'to
> weed'. Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in
> the good old sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.

I confess I don't see any connection between this & water in any Teutonic
tongue.
But I wish I could find a connection in the Taal for this!

> ''Schwad'' E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'',
''row'' ???

> Schwad / Schwaden is in the Sprach Bockhaus as :    Reihe hingem?hten oder
> auf lange Zeilen geharkten Grases oder Getreides

> >From which we get English : swath (swathe   Northen English)    i.e. to
cut
> a swath through the grass

Hey Dirk & Tom & Gabriele.

Thanks for this. In Afrikaans we use 'nar',  'gek' & 'mal'. Usually the nar
is doing it deliberately, but the gek can't help himself, & the 'malle' is
lead away to a quiet place by people in white coats.

> > I guess the most likely North Saxon equivalent is _nar_ >

> > > Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> > > (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.
> > I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers",
who
> > were also known as 'Guisers'!

> I had hoped that "mummy" (Dutch _mummie_, German _Mumie_ etc.) was related
> to it.  ("Wrapped up," see?)  But alas, this does not pan out.  In the
case
> of English it comes from Norman French _mumie_, which denotes a bitumenous
> substance used for embalming, going back to Arabic ???  ? (?????) _m?miy?`
> (qub?r?)_ '(sepulchral) bitumen'.  Ah, well ...
> ('Mummy' = 'preserved corps' is ???  ? _m?miy?`_ in Modern Arabic.)

I know the History of 'mummy' & I thought it went back to Herodotus, but I
still disagree that it has any connection with English 'mummers' & 'mumming'
The Teutonic background *mumen* is just too substansial.

> In Low Saxon, _mummeln_ ~ _m?mmeln_ means 'to mumble', 'to murmur'; cf.
> German _murmeln_, Dutch _mompelen_, _murmuring_.  I assume this is a case
of
> either /r/ or /p/ assimilation to /m/, not one of actual relationship with
> the afore-mentioned words.

I'm afraid I disagree with all I have read so far of Partridge. Water is
something else again, but my wife pointed this out for my deluctation, the
spooky similarity of the query 'what' with the element 'water' in so many
apparantly unrelated languages.

Watter? (which?) & water - Afrikaans,
Ma im? (what if?) & mayim - Hebrew.
A que? (wherefor?) & aqua - Spanish

> > Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    w?t...
which
> > is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr

All you etymologisers rule, OK!

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 14:29:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:29:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.072923.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]

Ingmar wrote: "first say [a] (like in Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish etc)
and then say [y](=Dutch/French <u>, German <?>, Scandinavian <y>)."

I read somewhere a long time ago that the Dutch <ui> was a low front rounded
vowel moving to a high front rounded vowel.  It sounds like what you
described is a low back vowel to a high front rounded vowel.  Is what I read
before wrong?

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 14:33:08 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:33:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.04.05 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.073308.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Survival 2005.04.04 E/MN


From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com


Leeve Leeglanners,

Once in a while a truly touching piece of literature comes along. In this
case, I found it hard to classify as "literature", "language survival", or
"history". In our travels in the Crimea, we found that several Mennonite
associations were diligently trying to piece together where some of their
families had lived between 1800 and Stalin's ethnic cleansing of the
peninsula (among vast other regions). They are also trying to determine and
document the fate of many of those families.

We received through the Plautdietsch-L at listserv.linguistlist.org email
postings, the following short poem by Fritz Senn, entitled "Waut es daut
mett ons? Wie send soo vestreit""

Waut es daut mett ons? Wie send soo vestreit
Aus ne Kluck mett Tjitjel, tweschen dee de Hoftje jefoare,
Ons Voltj haft en Russlaunt jepleajcht en jeseit
Soo aun dee hundatfeftich Joare!
Doch aus koadel Marx enn Lenin tom Opproa jetjreit,
Worde onnerdreaglich de roode Boare.
Wan maun mau aun'e Gausseatj steit,
Sitt maun twee oole Bure derjche Menschemausse schloare,
En wan maun se frajcht, woo et ahn jeit,
Dan tjitje se wajch en tjrejche en kwoare.
Dee eena sajcht: 'En Russlaunt we daut nich meea jescheit,
Bloos em Staul ooda opp'em Bieschlach sette en Mochutje doare!'
Dee aundra: 'Etj hed latste Nacht em Droom mett Wintaweit
Belodne Ladawoages knoare!'
Dan schloare se wieda aulebeid,
Vebiestat enne Staut, tweschen Mensche en Koare,
Waut es daut mett ons? Wie send soo vestreit
Aus Tjena ut ewariepte Oare.
Wie send soo vestreit. En nuscht jedeit,
Komt! Klopp wie den ditjen Rost vonne Schoare
Waut halpt daut jaumre? Waut halpt daut Staumle,
Daut wie soo vestreit send? Roopt opp tom Saumle!

Vaenligast,

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 14:35:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:35:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.05 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.073526.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.04 (04) [E]


Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
"My own gandmother died in 1960 and was born about 1880. She always called a
funnel a "tundish", and coals in a fire didn't glow, they "got a gleed on".
She originated from the Leicestershire / Nottingham border area."

Thanks for those, Paul. Fascinating. Do you have any other snippets of
border lexicon? Whereabouts in particular did she live (village, town), if
you don't mind me asking?

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 15:23:12 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:23:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.082312.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (07) [E]


Elsie Zinsser wrote:
"I grew up saying exactly that (or rather koekoe!) and think it relates to
'koekeloer'. Another word probably related is 'koewie!' for hello!"

I think _koewie_ - if I understand the pronunciation - is possibly derived
from English _cooee_. Originally a call of recognition in one of the eastern
Australian indigenous languages, it was borrowed into Australian English
and, because of the British Army, soon became part of general imperial
slang*. It was still very current in the twentieth century in the south of
England but I reckon its decline began in the 1930s. Its appearance in South
Africa might be related to the Australian troop arrivals during the
Anglo-Boer War, or immigration from Australia and England.

*The term was used on British Army recruitment posters in Australia in the
early twentieth century - along the lines of "Coo-ee! Australians, will you
answer the call?"

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (07) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>> > > Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon
_gek_
> > > (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.<

OED re cuckoo

Cuckoo - The figurative sense  'fool' of the word 'cuckoo' is found in many
languages.   Superseded OE geac which though originally imitative, ceased
through normal phonetic development to suggest the bird' cry. It correlates
to OFris, OSax  gak  OHG gouh ( G gauch, itself superseded as the bird's
name by kuckcuck from the LG cf MDu cuccuc, Du koekoek)  ONorse gaukr ( see
GOWK)

Gowk + dialect for 'cuckoo' : fool or half-wit. << ON gaukr  OFris , OS gak
 OHG gouk ( in MHG fool G gauch)  <<< C Germanic ( exc gothic) *gaukaz of
imitative origin.

Per chance a BBC Radio 4 about words (Monday this week) mentioned 'Hunting
the gowk' and related gowk to the cuckoo You can hear the programme via
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/wordofmouth_20050401.shtml

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

You do indeed rock, all you etymologists, more and more following our
Heather's flag flying high. Nice to witness such fervor and ability!  If
Heather keeps this up she'll end up as our official etymological explorer
team director.  Wouldn't that be a feather in one's cap?

Elsie:

> I grew up saying exactly that (or rather koekoe!) and think it
> relates to 'koekeloer'.

You may be right.  In Low Saxon we have _kukeluren_ and _kunkeluren_ for 'to
lurk' (hence my suggestion to refer to list lurkers as _ku(n)kelurers_, also
to be spelled as _koe(n)keloerers_ for our Low Franconians).  I have a
feeling that the form with the /n/ came second, because _kukeln_ can mean
'to watch secretly'.  (The /-l-/ seems to suggest a frequentive case.)  I
take it this /kuuk-/ is related to /kiik-/ 'to look'.  (So, "to look many
time > all the time".)  The verb _luren_ (related to English 'to lure'?)
means 'to lie in ambush' > 'to watch and wait (in a hidden place)' > 'to
wait'.

Paul Finlow-Bates wrote under "Resources":

> My own gandmother died in 1960 and was born about
> 1880. She always called a funnel a "tundish", and coals
> in a fire didn't glow, they "got a gleed on".

These are very interesting.

I take it that _gleed_ is a cognate of German _Glut_, but it's umlauted, an
extension of the equivalent of "glow".  I assume it started with the Old
English verb /gloo-/ _gl?wan_ (_gl?wan_) 'to glow' developing into umlauted
/gl??-/ and extended _gl?^d_ (*_gloe^d_), which is in fact an Old English
word for 'blaze' or '(fire) glow'.  I would expect this to have developed
into Modern English _gleed_, which is preceise what Paul presented to us.

I was baffled re "tundish" at first.  The OED does list it (also the
alternative "tun-dish") and explains it as being composed of "tun" and
"dish".  Old and Middle English _tunne_ developed into "tonne" > "ton" in
most dialects.  It's earlier meaning may have been "barrel" or "keg."  A
"dish" (< _disc_) because as a flat or only slightly concave structure and
came also be used in the sense of 'sieve' or 'strainer', as in goldmining.
Apparently, "tundish" began in brewing.  The OED descries it as "a wooden
dish or shallow vessel with a tube at the bottom fitting into the bung-hole
of a tun or cask, forming a kind of funnel used in brewing," and it adds "In
mod. use, a broad, open container with one or more holes in the bottom, used
in various industrial processes, e.g. to feed molten metal into an ingot
mould so as to avoid splashing and give a smoother flow."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 22:28:53 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:28:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.05 (05) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.152853.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.05 (03) [E]


Cr?ost?ir,
Unfortunately I don't remember very much, I was only 7 when I last saw her,
when our family moved to New Zealand.  I think she was from the
Ratcliff-on-Soar or Gotham area way back, but moved to Leicester when quite
young.  But she always used the Nottinghamshire pronunciation of "buzz" for
bus, and a chimney was always a "chimley".  Neither usage seems common in
Nottingham these days, though her other habit of pronouncing words like old,
cold, bold etc. as "ode", "code" and "bode" persists here even among young
people.  She never used the Northern clipped definite article ("Trouble at
t'mill"), which in Nottinghamshire only seems to appear around Mansfield,
well north of Nottingham city.

Paul

----------

From: From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.03 (03) [D]


>Interessant. Ikzelf heb dat tijdens mijn schooltijd mezelf uit
>boeken
>aangeleerd..
>
>Leren jullie wel iets over het Fries, bijvoorbeeld ? En dat dat ook
>in
>Duitsland nog op enkele plekken wordt gesproken?
>
>Mei freonlike groetnis,
>
>Henno Brandsma

We leren dat het Fries bestaat, als kleine taal in het Noorden van
Nederland, dat is het zowat.
Over de Duitse Friezen weet ik alleen iets uit boeken.
Een lerares Geschiedenis in het 3de dorst zelfs eens beweren dat de Friezen
niet Indo-Europees waren maar verwant aan de Finnen!

Diederik Masure

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 22:55:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:55:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology " 2005.04.05 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.155529.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (01) [E]

Well, [a]+[y] is an easy way to explain how foreigners can learn to say
<ui>, in stead of ooy, oo-ee, aye, ow, oy etc.
Actually it's the modern pronunciation of <ui> in the Netherlands, especi-
ally in de Randstad.
A more classical way to pronounce <ui> is [?]+[y], maybe that is closer to
what you read.
In the East -with LS accent - and in many South Eastern pronunciations
(South-Gelderland/East Brabant/Limburg) we can hear [?j] or even [?j] -
which in Standard Dutch would be spelled as <eu>.
In many cities, e.g The Hague & Amsterdam, as well as in Belgium Brabant
and Dutch Brabant <ui> =>[?:]

Ingmar

>From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]
>
>Ingmar wrote: "first say [a] (like in Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish etc)
>and then say [y](=Dutch/French <u>, German <?>, Scandinavian <y>)."
>
>I read somewhere a long time ago that the Dutch <ui> was a low front
rounded
>vowel moving to a high front rounded vowel.  It sounds like what you
>described is a low back vowel to a high front rounded vowel.  Is what I
read
>before wrong?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 23:03:35 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:03:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology " 2005.04.05 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.160335.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

    I grew up saying exactly that (or rather koekoe!) and think it
    relates to 'koekeloer'.


  You may be right. In Low Saxon we have _kukeluren_ and _kunkeluren_ for
'to
  lurk' (hence my suggestion to refer to list lurkers as _ku(n)kelurers_,
also
  to be spelled as _koe(n)keloerers_ for our Low Franconians). I have a
  feeling that the form with the /n/ came second, because _kukeln_ can mean
  'to watch secretly'. (The /-l-/ seems to suggest a frequentive case.) I
  take it this /kuuk-/ is related to /kiik-/ 'to look'. (So, "to look many
  time > all the time".) The verb _luren_ (related to English 'to lure'?)
  means 'to lie in ambush' > 'to watch and wait (in a hidden place)' > 'to
  wait'.
About "to lure", I dunno, but "to lurk" is certainly derived from this root.
West Frisian has "loere", Dutch "loeren" (where the Dutch form has preserved
its "oe" instead of transforming it to "luren". Dutch has "koekeloeren" as
well.
The oe is probably based on varieties that still have the [u]-sound (as WF
and LS);
I think also the [u]-sound better fitted the emotional connotations). Dutch
"gluren"
is probably the same word, from "geluren" maybe, with historically correct
[y]-sound.


  Paul Finlow-Bates wrote under "Resources":


    My own gandmother died in 1960 and was born about
    1880. She always called a funnel a "tundish", and coals
    in a fire didn't glow, they "got a gleed on".


  These are very interesting.

  I take it that _gleed_ is a cognate of German _Glut_, but it's umlauted,
an
  extension of the equivalent of "glow". I assume it started with the Old
  English verb /gloo-/ _glowan_ (_gl?wan_) 'to glow' developing into
umlauted
  /gl??-/ and extended _gl?^d_ (*_gloe^d_), which is in fact an Old English
  word for 'blaze' or '(fire) glow'. I would expect this to have developed
  into Modern English _gleed_, which is preceise what Paul presented to us.
Old Frisian had "gleed" as well, from *gl?di in Old Germanic.
Modern West Frisian only has "gloed(e)" [glu. at d(@)].
Saterlandic Frisian has "gloud", but North Frisian (mainland, at least)
has umlauted forms: Wiedingharde: gl?id, Mooring: gl?dj, both from *gleed.
The verb (to glow) in Old Frisian was mostly "glia" (to glow), which gave
a.o. WF glier (A),
and derived "gleon" (< *gljeand < *gliand): 'piping hot', which also exists
in
NF gliinj (Mooring and Wiedingharde, also from *gliand). The modern verbs
NF gloie, SF gloie, gluuje and WF gloeie are related to Dutch gloeien, LS
"gluien"
(in Dutch spelling), where the Frisian forms might be old loans, as they do
not show
umlaut at all.


  Regards,
  Reinhard/Ron
Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]

Hi all,
Thanks, Cr?ost?ir, this is very interesting and most likely.
Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
I think _koewie_ - if I understand the pronunciation - is possibly derived
from English _cooee_. Originally a call of recognition in one of the eastern
Australian indigenous languages, it was borrowed into Australian English
and, because of the British Army, soon became part of general imperial
slang*.

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> If Heather keeps this up she'll end up as our official etymological
explorer team director.<

But only for as long as I am recovering from a bad dose of 'flu and can
just about sit at the computer , read mails, lean back and pick the
relevant books from the shelves behind me.

Once work starts up again in earnest, there may be longer pauses
inbetween!!!!!

Heather

----------

From: David Pinto <david_e_pinto at yahoo.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]


Cooee figures prominently in one of the stories of Sherlock Holmes.

Elsie Zinsser wrote:
...  Another word probably related is 'koewie!' for hello!"

I think _koewie_ - if I understand the pronunciation - is possibly
derived
from English _cooee_. Originally a call of recognition in one of the
eastern
Australian indigenous languages, it was borrowed into Australian
English
and, because of the British Army, soon became part of general imperial
slang*. It was still very current in the twentieth century in the south
of
England but I reckon its decline began in the 1930s. Its appearance in
South
Africa might be related to the Australian troop arrivals during the
Anglo-Boer War, or immigration from Australia and England.

*The term was used on British Army recruitment posters in Australia in
the early twentieth century - along the lines of "Coo-ee! Australians, will
you answer the call?"

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.05 (04) [E]


They still hold annual Cooee competitions in Australia.  Properly executed,
a good "Cooee" can exceed 110 decibels.  The sound probably immitates the
Whip-bird, which has a very loud, penetrating call.

Paul

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 23:05:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:05:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.04.05 (08) [D]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.160524.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.29 (02) [E]

Hallo naamgenoot,

In East-Brabant (more specifically in the dialects called 'Getelands',
spoken in a region roughly defined by the Grote Gete and the Kleine Gete) we
use similar pronominal forms for the 3rd person singular. Examples: he?
werkt, he? deu "hij doet". In constructions with inversion we say e.g.
makt-er "maakt hij", gee-t-er mei "gaat hij mee".
The form he? is possibly derived from *her, which would be a compromise
between h? and er (Old High German ?r). In easterly Middle Dutch 'he' was
somtimes used instead of the more common 'h?' (cfr. A. Van Loey,
Middelnederlands Sraakkunst I. Vormleer, ? 41,b).
The enclitical -er goes back to *her too. This point of view is corroborated
by the fact that the verbal ending -t is not changed to -d- due to the fact
that the h- of he? (her), although eliminated now, has prevented the
application of the rules of "sandhi" (assimilation of voice). Compare with
constructions for the 2nd person singular: komd-er mei "komt ge mee",
werkd-er "werkt ge" . This -er developed from *ir (Old High German ?r -
German ihr). Assimilation clearly worked in this case as it was not hampered
by the presence of an h-. Compare further: kumt-er (u as in Dutch dus) "komt
hij", werkt-er "werkt hij". In the inversion form kumt-er the final -t was
retained as opposed to the non-inversion form, where it is left out : he?
kum "hij komt".
All the above remarks do not apply to dialect of Tienen, which uses clearly
more Brabantish forms: ea "hij" (unemphatically: en) werkt, doet, go(t)
"gaat", enclitically -em: e.g. werkd-em "werkt hij", god-em "gaat hij".
Compare with 2nd person sg. constructions: werkt ge, goche (<*got ge) "gaat
ge".

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven
>
> From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Why does inversion often have a so a significant effect on the "verb -
> personal pronoun" combination, as if it were subjected to special rules?
>
> In my West-Limburgish e.g. we replace "hi?" (he) with "er" when inverting.
>
> Hi? ?s doe? gew?s (He has been there)
> Es-t-er do? gew?s? (Has he been there?)
>
> For the second pronoun we have a contraction:
>
> Dzji? zit doe? gew?s (You have been there)
> Zie (quite long ie) doe? gew?s? (Have you been there?)
>
> Curiously in West Flemish they repeat the Flemish "je" with the Brabantish
> "gie":
> "Ejje gie da noadig?" (Do you need [to know] that?)
> (cf ./ text below pasted from the "Westvlams" list.)
> LES WESTVLAAMS
> Zoon: "Moedre, oe skrievje tetten?"
> Waarop moeder: "Emoa joengne, wuk ne parlee;
> Woa voarn ejje gie da noadig?"
> Zoon: "Voar in mien ipstel van 't schole, kwille skrievn:
> Voadre ee nen nieuwn trekteur gekocht en tetten nog niemand gezien".
>
> Does inversion generally have similar effects in lowland languages?
>
> Regards,
> Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr  5 23:06:43 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:06:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.5.APR.2005.160643.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (01) [E]

Hello Mark,

You were absolutely right when you stated that the ui-diphthong in general
Dutch starts with "a low front rounded  vowel moving to a high front rounded
vowel." The first element sounds like the vowel  in French 'soeur, seul'.
Together with the second element it sounds like French 'seuil'.

Roger Hondshoven

> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (01) [E]
>
> Ingmar wrote: "first say [a] (like in Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish etc)
> and then say [y](=Dutch/French <u>, German <?>, Scandinavian <y>)."
>
> I read somewhere a long time ago that the Dutch <ui> was a low front
rounded
> vowel moving to a high front rounded vowel.  It sounds like what you
> described is a low back vowel to a high front rounded vowel.  Is what I
read
> before wrong?
>
> Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 14:20:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:20:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.072021.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (09) [E]

It sounds to me almost like Norwegian Au.

----------

From: rudi <rudi at its.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.04 (06) [A/E]

Subject: Phonology, Afr /ui/ to /ai/

Elsie and Ingmar (and others) contributed on this topic.

In my limited experience, there was (or maybe even still is in some social
circles),  the tendency for Afr /ui/ to be pronounced as /y/.
Buite would become byte, huis => hys etc. This was by and large regarded as
either laziness or just "poor breeding/education".  Could /ui/ to /ai/  not
be interpreted as  an  over correction or perhaps even an affectation in an
attempt to sound  correct/educated? What say the clever people?

Cheers
Rudi Vari

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 14:29:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:29:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.06 (02) [D/E/F]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.072942.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Dear Lowlanders,

Below please find for your attention another message I received from the
Frisian Action Group Te M?l.

One might suggest including German versions of these messages, since Germany
is the other country with indigenous Frisian populations and North Germans
are among the few populations outside the Netherlands that even know what
the word "Frisian" means.

By the latest news on the Frisian and other fronts I am tempted to conclude
that things are slipping in the Netherlands, that there has been regress
rather than progress lately, which goes to show you that becoming complacent
is not the best option, especially where there is a powerful organization in
place that is hostile to linguistic diversity.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From: Te M?l <aksjetemal at yahoo.de>
Subject: Frisian education


Beste mensen,
Actiegroep Te M?l is woedend vanwege een recent gesloten convenant tussen
Provinciale Staten van Friesland en de Nederlandse regering. Daarin staan
afspraken die indruisen tegen de onlangs geuite wens van PS van Friesland om
de gelijkwaardigheid van het Fries en Nederlands op de basisschool te
handhaven. Wij hebben onze verontwaardiging geuit in een brief aan PS van
Friesland. U vindt de brief en persberichten in het Fries en Nederlands op
onze site www.temal.tk.

Dear people,
Our action group Te M?l is furious about a recent agreement between the
provincial government of Frisia and the Netherlands' government. The
agreement ignores the wish of the Frisian parliament to maintain equality of
Frisian and Dutch in primary education. We have formulated our anger in a
letter to the Frisian parliament. You can find the letter and press releases
in Frisian and Dutch on our site www.temal.tk.

B?ste minsken,
Us aksjegroep Te M?l is poerlilk om in okkerdeis sletten konvenant tusken
Provinsjale Steaten fan Frysl?n en it Nederl?nske regear. D?ryn wurde saken
?fpraat dy't net yn 't lyk binne mei de winsk fan PS fan Frysl?n om Frysk en
Holl?nsk op 'e basisskoalle lykweardich te h?lden. Wy ha ?s lilkens op
papier set yn in brief oan PS. Jim fine it brief en parseberjocht yn it
Frysk en Holl?nsk op ?s site www.temal.tk.

Ut namme fan de aksjegroep Te M?l,
Elbrecht Claus

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 17:33:10 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:33:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.103310.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Dear Lowlanners, Heather:

one word more to LS: "Weet" v/s E: "wet":

> Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    w?t...   which
> is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr
>
> So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten
>
> Heather

Well- indeed there exists another, but very special word tight to E: 'wet'
in our LS-dialect: "Wettern" (same way used in High German), meaning
something like  D:"Gracht", E: "canal".
In the times of Middel-Low-Saxon it was called "Wetering", but I always
supposed it to be a Dutch loan.
Something like that used in the Netherlandic languages?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 18:03:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:03:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.110329.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (01) [E]

Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
<a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ?.
Btw: I think that Old Norse <au> had already that <ui> sound too, because
otherwise Danish/Norwegian <?> and Swedish <?> would not have developped
from it, but it would have been long <o> in stead, like in Dutch and Low
Saxon. Second: Icelandic <au> has the same sound as Dutch <ui> or Norw.
<au> too.

Rudi, about the difference between Afr. <y>/<ei> and <ui>... I often saw
Afrikaans <y> and <ei> transcribed phonetically as [@j], schwa + j.
In Dutch ears that would resemble <ui> a lot, because D. ij/ei = [Ej].
So what is the Afr. pronunciation of y/ei and what is its difference with
ui?

Ingmar

>From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.05 (09) [E]
>
>It sounds to me almost like Norwegian Au.

>From: rudi <rudi at its.co.za>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.04 (06) [A/E]
>
>Subject: Phonology, Afr /ui/ to /ai/
>
>Elsie and Ingmar (and others) contributed on this topic.
>
>In my limited experience, there was (or maybe even still is in some social
>circles),  the tendency for Afr /ui/ to be pronounced as /y/.
>Buite would become byte, huis => hys etc. This was by and large regarded
as
>either laziness or just "poor breeding/education".  Could /ui/ to /ai/
not
>be interpreted as  an  over correction or perhaps even an affectation in
an
>attempt to sound  correct/educated? What say the clever people?
>
>Cheers
>Rudi Vari

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ben:

> >It sounds to me almost like Norwegian Au.

Ingmar (above):

> Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
> <a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ?.

I think Ben's "almost" is quite warranted.  "Not quite" may be another one
here.

In most Norwegian (and Swedish) dialects, /u/ is not pronounced quite like
"Dutch/French <u>, or German ?," i.e., like [y] and [Y], not like [u] and
[U] either, but is an in-between, "medial" version -- neither back nor
front.  In IPA script it is written as an "u" with a bar through it, in
SAMPA as [}]. This applies to the glide in /au/ as well.  Furthermore, the
/a/ in /au/ is pronounced as [?] (digraph "ae") in IPA and as [{] in SAMPA,
thus [{}] for the diphthong in SAMPA (looking rather weird).  I think this
"u" sound in Norwegian and Swedish sounds closest to "?" to speakers of
other Germanic languages, hence the "slight misperception."

The "conservative" pronunciation of Dutch <ui> tends to be described in IPA
as [?] (digraph "oe") followed by an upside-down "h," which denotes the
glide equivalent of [y].  In SAMPA it tends to be written [9y].  In the
"newer" pronunciation, which unrounds the vowel an lowers the glide, I
suggest writing [?] followed by a small capital "y", in SAMPA [{Y].

So, in this latter pronunciation, the vowel does indeed sound like the one
in Norwegian <au>, but the glide is not medial and tense but back and lax.

Conservative Afrikaans <ui> tends to be described the same as conservative
Dutch <ui>.  From what I have heard, the newer Afrikaans versions range
somewhere between the newer Dutch one and what in IPA is schwa followed by a
small capital "y", in SAMPA [@Y], with extension to total unrounding, this
involving the glide that in IPA is a small capital "i" and in SAMPA [I].  It
sounds closest to what in Afrikaans are written <y> and <ei> and may end up
identical if the trend persists and speakers *perceive* them as identical.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 20:42:13 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:42:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.134213.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (01) [E]

Hi all,

I doubt that my four year old son is concerned with sounding affected or
educated
when saying [bait@] instead of [b at it@] :)

I have read that this is an English-language influence, and which apparently
started
in Pretoria at Afrikaans Ho?r Meisieskool by an English speaking teacher.

It was originally probably an attempt to over-compensate but is now quite
predominant
on the Rand amongst Afrikaans speakers within the age groups 10-30.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
>Could /ui/ to /ai/  not be interpreted as  an  over correction or perhaps
>even an affectation in an
attempt to sound  correct/educated? What say the clever people?

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.03 (01) [E]

An example of Dutch Low Saxon where <?> rhymes with <e> is found in the
third part of the song "Bernd van Kuyperiy" of the popular Achterhoeks
band Boh Foi Toch :

in et voerjaor gao'w dan langs den ES
wiy lopet daor samen hand in hand
en biy de bekke in et GR?S
vleget unse lyve in de brand
de kalvere stuvet haost doer den draod
de kyften raert hoog an de locht
ik wette met miy selv gin raod
ik heb so lang hyr nao esocht
ik kryge van ou jao neet genoch
nee noyt genoch

(I transcribed it in ANS)

So <es> (a kind of agr. field) and <gr?s> grass are rhyming here.

I'll give you the first two parts of the song too:

Goyendag myn dern b?n iy noch vriy
myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
Ik heb 'ne moye burderiy
den's ok van ou a'y trout met miy
ik heb good melk up al myne grund
der is voer twe platse sat
'k heb vyftig beeste en een hund
myn va en mo woont ampart
a'y biy myn komt
geev ik myn lyf, geev ik myn hart

Ik sag ou aover straote gaon
iy kwamen kort an miy voerbiy
Mag ik wel evkes biy ou staon
myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
Ik heb ou hyr noch noyt eseen
iy komt hyr sekers neet vandan
Ik voele miy mangs so alleen
gin derntjen w?g et met miy an
Ik do voer ou, a'y biy miy komt
al wat ik kan

In et voerjaor gao'w dan ... etc

***

The dialect is Western Achterhoek Low Saxon, as one may see with a lot of
schwa-deletion already - like neighboring Low Franconian and Dutch, and
using sec. pers. pronouns <iy/ou> in stead of more Eastern <dou/diy>,
again as in Dutch <jij/jou> and Low Franc. <giy/ou>.

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]
>
>[...]
>
>> Would rhyming "u" with "i" sound OK in the other
>> Lowlands languages?
>>
>> Darrin
>
>Hallo,
>
>'Not-perfect' rhyming is generally accepted  [at least
>in the Germanic languages] when the two rhyming sounds
>have the same number [and kind] of distinctive
>features, unless one.
>
>vr.gr.
>Theo Homan

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (04) [E]

Well, Ron, what I was actually asking about was the pronunciation of Afr.
<y> / <ei>,which I've seen being described as [@i], so with a schwa as
first element.
Maybe someone else, esp. a native Afrikaans speaker, can tell us more
about that?

Baie dankie!

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

PS: I know 'baie' is from Malay 'banya' much, many, a lot. Are there more
common Malay/Javanese/Indonesian/Malagassy loans in Afr.?
In Dutch we have some common ones like 'piekeren' to think/to worry
(originally from Arabic 'fikir' of course), 'soebatten' to quarrel, 'tab?'
farewell, 'tahoe' tofu (<Chinese?), 'toko' shop (<Chinese?) etc

Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Phonology
>
>Ben:
>
>> >It sounds to me almost like Norwegian Au.
>
>Ingmar (above):
>
>> Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
>> <a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ?.
>
>I think Ben's "almost" is quite warranted.  "Not quite" may be another one
>here.
>
>In most Norwegian (and Swedish) dialects, /u/ is not pronounced quite like
>"Dutch/French <u>, or German ?," i.e., like [y] and [Y], not like [u] and
>[U] either, but is an in-between, "medial" version -- neither back nor
>front.  In IPA script it is written as an "u" with a bar through it, in
>SAMPA as [}]. This applies to the glide in /au/ as well.  Furthermore, the
>/a/ in /au/ is pronounced as [?] (digraph "ae") in IPA and as [{] in
SAMPA,
>thus [{}] for the diphthong in SAMPA (looking rather weird).  I think this
>"u" sound in Norwegian and Swedish sounds closest to "?" to speakers of
>other Germanic languages, hence the "slight misperception."
>
>The "conservative" pronunciation of Dutch <ui> tends to be described in
IPA
>as [?] (digraph "oe") followed by an upside-down "h," which denotes the
>glide equivalent of [y].  In SAMPA it tends to be written [9y].  In the
>"newer" pronunciation, which unrounds the vowel an lowers the glide, I
>suggest writing [?] followed by a small capital "y", in SAMPA [{Y].
>
>So, in this latter pronunciation, the vowel does indeed sound like the one
>in Norwegian <au>, but the glide is not medial and tense but back and lax.
>
>Conservative Afrikaans <ui> tends to be described the same as conservative
>Dutch <ui>.  From what I have heard, the newer Afrikaans versions range
>somewhere between the newer Dutch one and what in IPA is schwa followed
by a
>small capital "y", in SAMPA [@Y], with extension to total unrounding, this
>involving the glide that in IPA is a small capital "i" and in SAMPA [I].
It
>sounds closest to what in Afrikaans are written <y> and <ei> and may end
up
>identical if the trend persists and speakers *perceive* them as identical.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar (above):

> Well, Ron, what I was actually asking about was the pronunciation of Afr.
> <y> / <ei>,which I've seen being described as [@i], so with a schwa as
> first element.

That's how it may have started.  I was merely responding to what you wrote,
irrespective of the initial inquiry:

>> Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
>> <a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ?.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 20:47:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:47:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.134719.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (04) [E]

PS: I know 'baie' is from Malay 'banya' much, many, a lot. Are there more
common Malay/Javanese/Indonesian/Malagassy loans in Afr.?
In Dutch we have some common ones like 'piekeren' to think/to worry
(originally from Arabic 'fikir' of course), 'soebatten' to quarrel, 'tab?'
farewell, 'tahoe' tofu (<Chinese?), 'toko' shop (<Chinese?) etc

Ingmar

----------

From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (03) [E]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]
>
> Dear Lowlanners, Heather:
>
> one word more to LS: "Weet" v/s E: "wet":
>
>> Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    w?t...
>> which
>> is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr
>>
>> So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten
>>
>> Heather
>
> Well- indeed there exists another, but very special word tight to E:
> 'wet'
> in our LS-dialect: "Wettern" (same way used in High German), meaning
> something like  D:"Gracht", E: "canal".
> In the times of Middel-Low-Saxon it was called "Wetering", but I always
> supposed it to be a Dutch loan.
> Something like that used in the Netherlandic languages?
>
> Greutens/sincerely
>
> Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

"Wetering" is indeed a Dutch word, and "wjittering" in West Frisian.
This suggests that the e: is old, and maybe an ablaut variant of
"water" (WF wetter) or an old Ingvaeonic form, with e < a.

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (03) [E]

Hello Heather, Johnny
Yes indeed the word wetering is still in use in Dutch. It is a drainage
ditch, but bigger than a "sloot" ( little ditch )that drains water from
our polders. You will also find the name in several place names like
Weteringen in Overijsel en street names like Weteringschans in
Amsterdam. Jacqueline

---------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (03) [E]


From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Lieve Leeglanners,

Jonny Meibohm has brought a really interesting and nearly-archaic usage into
the picture. It was my understanding that _wetering_, as in the Amsterdam
_weteringsschans_ was originally a gracht, indeed, but one specifically
designed for irrigation rather than transportation or sheer drainage. We
would need to see the 11th Century engineers' original plans.

I dunno. The farther back in time we delve over "water rights", the more we
see uncanny similarities between Proto-Indo-European words and Semitic,
perhaps even Nostratic origins. Some argue that all aquatic words derive
from the "glug" sound in the Kehl performed in drinking.

Met groeten,

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr  6 23:57:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:57:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.6.APR.2005.165742.0700.>

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From: David Pinto <david_e_pinto at yahoo.ca>
Subject: More on cooee


113,000 hits on Google, including...

Word of the Day: Thursday 30 September  2004  Cooee
      Kel Richards writes:

      Cooee is (or was originally) a call used to attract attention in the
bush. Used as such the first syllable is drawn out, and the second syllable
rises rapidly in pitch. Its of Aboriginal origin, coming from the Dharruk
people who lived in the west of what is now Sydney. Its first recorded in
1790 in Governor Hunter?s journal. Because of the peculiar carrying quality
of this call it was adopted by white settlers for the same purpose ?
attracting attention in the bush (sometimes over considerable distances).
There have been other uses that have developed from this. So in the First
Word War there was the idea of a cooee that was calling young Australian men
to battle, and a recruiting march from rural New South Wales to Sydney was
called ?The Cooee March?. And because cooee works, as a call, over distance
it can become a reference to distance, as in the expression ?within cooee? ?
meaning within hailing distance. And in Queensland there is a place called
Cooee Bay (not far from Yeppoon) where they have an annual ?Cooee Calling
Contest? ? in which winners are judged on the loudness of their cooee and
how long they can maintain the call. (The record is in excess of 20
seconds.)


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 14:59:56 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:59:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.075956.0700.>

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From: 1handclapping <1handclapping at myway.com>
Subject: LL-L

This is simply what happens to minority languages all over the world - the
same will happen in the EU with all languages
- if you begin a studying career now and you want to obtain a master degree
on a "top" university - you will have to learn English
which is a de facto devaluation of all -even major languages-
In principle the EU converses with its citiizens in any of the 20 official
languages -
in practice you can forget it if you are unable to use english.

If minority language speakers want to take action to preserve their language
they should support the idea of "Esperanto" as a 2nd language for everyone..

[Roger Verhiest]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 15:01:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:01:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.080154.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Resources

As to a mailing, dated March 31, I received this Tuesday, new volumes of the
WLD (Dictionary of Limburgish dialects) are no longer published by "Van
Gorcum" in "Assen", Nl, but by:

Gopher
Neutronstraat 7-14, 9743 AM Groningen
Postbus 70080, 9704 AB Groningen-Nl
Tel. +31-50-365 72 72
Fax +31-50-365 72 73
www;gopher.nl
info at gopher.nl

It was also announced that four new volumes are immediately available at
this house:

Woordenboek van de Limburgse Dialecten
Deel III - 1.1: Het menselijk lichaam
Auteur: R. Keulen
Bladzijden: 302
ISBN: 9051792034
Verkoopprijs: EUR 25.50 (excl. verzend- en verpakkingskosten)

Woordenboek van de Limburgse Dialecten
Deel III - 1.2: Beweging en gezondheid
Auteur: R. Keulen
Bladzijden: 434
ISBN: 9051792077
Verkoopprijs: EUR 30.00 (excl. verzend- en verpakkingskosten)

Woordenboek van de Limburgse Dialecten
Deel III - 2.3: Eten en drinken
Auteur: drs. H. van de Wijngaard
Bladzijden: 444
ISBN: 9051792018
Verkoopprijs: EUR 32.50 (excl. verzend- en verpakkingskosten)

Woordenboek van de Limburgse Dialecten
Deel III - 4.4: De wereld
Auteur: dr. J. Kruijsen
Bladzijden: 450
ISBN: 9051791925
Verkoopprijs: EUR 32.50 (excl. verzend- en verpakkingskosten)

Just fyi,
Regards,
Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 16:17:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:17:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.091726.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology " 2005.04.05 (07) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Originally a call of recognition in one of the eastern
Australian indigenous languages, it was borrowed into Australian English
and, because of the British Army, soon became part of general imperial
slang*.
<

OED has that cooee  = call used as a long distance signal by Australian
Aborigines 19th century and that  'cow-ee' was given in a vocabulary of
1790 as meaning 'come'.


It was still very prevelant in the 1950s in Southern Engliand among
children - especially when playing Hide and Seek: one called 'cooee' from
one's hiding place to tease the finder. With voices calling 'cooee' from
all directions, the finder was often at a loss as to which direction to go
in.

It is still used  in plays and soaps by older characters  for example when
a friend comes into your house: they knock, open the door and call Cooee to
announce their arrival.

Heather

----------

From: jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be <jean-luc.detilleux at skynet.be>
Subject: Etymology


Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

As soon as I read  Jonny Meiboom's remarks about "Wettern"

> Well- indeed there exists another, but very special word tight to E: 'wet'

> in our LS-dialect: "Wettern" (same way used in High German), meaning

> something like  D:"Gracht", E: "canal".



I immediately thought of a place name of West-Vlaanderen, Wetteren. The fact
is, the town is far from wet, being built on a hilltop! So I went to search
for a possible etymology on the web, and this is what I have found:



> De naam Wetteren

>

> Vuethre nomen est uille" = Wetteren is de naam van een dorp, schrijft
> Nodkerus,

> bisschop van Luik in zijn 'Vita Sancti Landualdi', gedateerd 19 juni 980.
> De bisschop

> verhaalt de overbrenging van de relikwie??n van de heilige Landoaldus en de
> Gezellen

> van Wintershoven naar de Sint-Baafsabdij te Gent.
> De naam Wetteren is af te leiden uit het Germaanse haar of haruf = zandige
> heuvelrug

> en hwata = scherp. Het centrum van Wetteren ligt inderdaad op een
> heuvelrug die naar

> de Schelde toe steil afbreekt.

> http://www.wetteren.be/gsnaamframe.htm



Later on, Henno Brandsma wrote that



> Wetering" is indeed a Dutch word, and "wjittering" in West Frisian.

> This suggests that the e: is old, and maybe an ablaut variant of

> "water" (WF wetter) or an old Ingvaeonic form, with e < a.



and this seems to make perfect sense. So, could there be a collision of two
different terms for Wetteren? Or does the explanation of *hwata* run in the
wash? Over to you, the scholars.



Jean-Luc Detilleux



(Oufti! K??n' affaire ?  Lidje!)


----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.06 (06) [E]

Hi all,

Ja, Ingmar, there are quite a few Malay originating words in Afrikaans
but I will have to get to my library at home to give you a listing.

Grammatically, Afrikaans has repetitive forms originating from Malay,
such as:
Ons speel huis-huis,
Die kinders loop lag-lag winkel toe
Sy het hink-hink daar aangekom

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

PS: I know 'baie' is from Malay 'banya' much, many, a lot. Are there more
common Malay/Javanese/Indonesian/Malagassy loans in Afr.?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ingmar:

> PS: I know 'baie' is from Malay 'banya' much, many, a lot.

Actually, it comes from Malay _banyak_.  In Malay/Indonesian (and most other
language varieties of Southeast Asia, irrespective of genealogy) final stops
are not released (i.e., the mouth/tongue remains in the position until the
next sound is formed).  To people who are not used to this phonetic variant,
these sound either like glottal stops or like nothing, especially so in the
case of unreleased /k/.

For Malay/Indonesian, nominal reduplication tends to be explained as
plural-forming, but I have the feeling that it implies variety more than
that, as does partial reduplication in Philippine languages (which are also
Malayo-Polynesian), varieties of Micronesia, the Americas and parts of
Africa, as well as Turkic "plural" _-lar_ ~ _-l??r_.  In some North American
languages, such as the Salishan ones of the Pacific Northwest, variety
expression by way of reduplication has been formally recognized.

By default, plurality of nouns in Malay/Indonesian is not morphologically
expressed; e.g., _gosok gigi_ (not *_gosok gigi-gigi_) 'brush one's teeth',
and _banyak anak_ (not *_banyak anak-anak_) 'many children'.

It makes perfect sense to assume that Afrikaans received reduplication from
Malay varieties, not only because of strong similarities, but also because
it was in the main Malay slaves or Malay-speaking slaves (some of them
having other native languages, such as Javanese and Sundanese) that raised
"Dutch" children "on the Cape."

However, I'm still not fully informed about the full extent and the shades
of meaning of reduplication in Afrikaans.  So, folks, here are a few
questions.

Is there any nominal reduplication, and, if so, what does it express?

Does _huis-huis_ ("house-house") in _ons speel huis-huis_ imply variety, or
does it express iteration > continuation ("we go on and on playing house"),
as do reduplicated verbs in adverbial expressions (_Die kinders loop lag-lag
winkel toe_ "The children run laugh-laugh to the shop" = 'The children run
laughing to the shop', _Sy het hink-hink daar aangekom_ "He has limp-limp
there arrived" = 'She arrived there limping')?

>From what I can tell, reduplication of adjectives/adverbs and also of verbs
in Malay/Indonesian matches Afrikaans usage very well:

* double verbs expressing repeated action
* double adjectives/adverbs expressing intensity
  (e.g., _gou-gou_ 'very fast', _nou-nou_ 'right now')

The thing about reduplication in Afrikaans is a bit of a cross-over between
"Etymology" and "Grammar."

So here is an etymological question to end with.

In Afrikaans, _Maleis_ means 'Malay' (adj./adv.), as does _Slams_.  Am I
right in assuming that the latter comes from _Islams_ 'Islamic'?  If so,
this would be rather interesting, aside from the fact that it would show
that the earliest notable Islamic population of the "Cape" was Malay.  (And
we know that the earliest extant written texts in Afrikaans are in Arabic
script.)  It is interesting also in that this would mean that the word has
been borrowed twice: (1) _Slams_ (~ _Maleis_) 'Malay', (2) _Islams_ (~
_Mohammedaans_) 'Islamic', 'Moslem'.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 16:58:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:58:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.095854.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]


Roger Verhiest wrote:
"In principle the EU converses with its citizens in any of the 20 official
languages - in practice you can forget it if you are unable to use English."

Yes. "Europe, united in diversity" sounds wonderful, but when that diversity
gets a bit too bothersome for the bureaucrats, out it goes. In effect, the
EU has copied the Irish Government's attitude to bilingualism - "let's
pretend". It is profoundly saddening. What is the point of "official status"
when that status means absolutely nothing?

Raw nerves all round, I think, Roger.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 17:51:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:51:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.105152.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners,

(English below)

'n nieget Woord vandoog:

in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*, wat nat??rlik opp
Ingelt: "knife", opp Haugdyytsch "Messer" meent. Wi bruukt dat, mutt ick
tougeeven, ne meer foken; de meersten L??d seggt "Metz", in de s?lvig
Meen'n.

In miin W??rb?kers kunn ick ne recht wat finnen, wat door an verwandt is- ne
in Oul Sassisch, ook ne in Oul Ingelsch or in Oul Frees'sch.

1. Watt meent Jii, woneem dit Woor herkoomen deiht? Kunn dat woll van de
oulen Wikingers koomen?
2. Is dat woll een Woord, wat uns "Platt" sick van dat Ingelsche utleent
hett?

***

Dear Lowlanners,

another word today:

in our LS-dialect we sometimes use the word *Knief*, meaning of course E:
"knife", G: "Messer". It's, as I have to admit, not so very common in our
days, most people prefer the LS: "Metz", meaning the same thing.

In my dictionaries I could'nt find any obvious cognate words, neither in
Old-Saxon nor in Old-English or Old-Frisian.

1. What do You guess to be it's etymological origin? Could it come from Old
Norse?
2. Is it- in our LS- a loan from English?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

[English below]

Dat is 'n intressante Saak, mit dey Du vun daag' an-k?mst, leyve Jonny.

Dat Old-Sassische wourd is _sahs_ (> Saks ~ Sax). Dat kanst as 'n lang mets
(~ mess) or as 'n kort sweyrd beschryven. Dat harren sey schynts tou 't
warken un vechten bruukt. (Daar k?mt ook Skandinaawsch meyrtal _sakser_,
_saxor_ etc. v?r _scheyr_ vun af.) Dat annere Old-Sassisch wourd is
_m?tisahs_ (_metisahs_). Dat harren sey sachs by 't praat-maken un eten vun
spysen bruukt, wyl dat _m?ti_ (_meti_) 'eten', 'spys'' beduydt. (Vergl.
Ingelsch _meat_, Deensch _mad_, etc.)

In 't Old-Neddervranksche weett wy man bloots vun _sahs_. Ney-Nedderlandsch
het _mes_ (< *_metisahs_).

Ik kan ook keyn Old-Sassisch wourd vinden, dat mit Ingelsch _knife_ verwandt
is. Ik neem an, dat _knyv_ vun 't Vreyssche or vun 't Skandinaawsche
af-keym, sachs in Middel-Sassische tyden, in dey de Sassen eyn vout in 't
nourd harren un sik poe-a-poe Vreyssch-sprakige rebeyden up d'n snavel
reyten.

Old-Ingelsch het _cn?f_, Old-Vreyssch _knif_, Old-Nourdsch _kn?fr_ (>
_knif_, _kniv_, etc.), Middel-Hollandsch _cnijf_ (> _knijf_, _knijp_),
Middel-Sassisch _kn?f_ (> knyv, knyp, > Middel-Duytsch _kneif_).

Nu wy weett dat dat Old-Sassische un das Old-Neddervranksche d?t wourd nich
hebt man Middel-Sassische un das Middel-Neddervranksche dat wourd wul hebt,
daar koent wy wul seggen dat dat eyrder vun 't Vreyssche as vun 't
Skandinaawsche af-keym, wyl dat de twey spraken sik in Vreyssch-sprakige
rebeyden breyd moeken. Dat 't vun 't Skandinaawsche af-keym is man nich
unmoeglich. Dat 't 'n Ingelsch leenwourd is, dat gloyv' ik nich.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

You're coming to us with a particularly interesting topic, Jonny.

The Old Saxon word is _sahs_ (> Saks ~ Sax) denoting a long knife or a short
sword, probably used as a tool and as a weapon. (This is where Scandinavian
plural _sakser_, _saxor_ etc. 'scissors' come from.) The other Old Saxon
word for 'knife' is _m?tisahs_ (_metisahs_), which seems to have denoted a
knife with which to prepare and eat food, since _m?ti_ (_meti_) means 'food'
(cf. English "meat," Danish _mad_, etc.).

In Old Low Franconian, only _sahs_ seems to be known, and Modern Dutch has
_mes_ (< *_metisahs_).

I can't find an Old Saxon cognate of "knife" either. I suspect that Modern
_knyv_ (<Knief>) goes back to a Frisian or Scandinavian loan, probably in
Middle Saxon times when the Saxons had one foot in the north and were
gradually usurping Frisian-speaking areas.

Old English has _cn?f_, Old Frisian _knif_, Old Norse _kn?fr_ (> _knif_,
_kniv_, etc.), Middle Dutch _cnijf_ (> _knijf_, _knijp_), Middle Saxon
_kn?f_ (> knyv, knyp, > Middel-Duytsch _kneif_).

So, in this light of a cognate being absent from both Old Saxon and Old Low
Franconian but a cognate being present in Middle Saxon and Middle Dutch, we
might presume that we are dealing with a Frisian loan, since both languages
encroached on Frisian areas. However, we can't exclude the possibility of
this being a Scandinavian loan either. I think it's less likely that it is
an English loan.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 21:18:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:18:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.141819.0700.>

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From: kt4nn at juno.com <kt4nn at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]

Greetings to Lowlanders,

   The theory of universal language is too complex a subject
for young adults preparing for work. So Esperanto goes out
the window.

Peter Sorensen

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (04) [E]

Criost?ir wrote: 'In effect, the EU has copied the Irish Government's
attitude to bilingualism - "let's pretend".'

I have a question related to this.  Didn't Latin have a similar status
regarding the Church and the Academy back in the Middle Ages?  At the time,
those two institutions would have played a similar role in some respects to
the role of governments today, no?  That fact didn't prevent Latin from
dying out...or was it already dead as a language spoken by the common
people?

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 21:46:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:46:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (07) [E/F/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.144619.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]


  From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
  Subject: Etymology

  Leeve Lowlanners,

  (English below)

  'n nieget Woord vandoog:

  in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*, wat nat??rlik
opp
  Ingelt: "knife", opp Haugdyytsch "Messer" meent. Wi bruukt dat, mutt ick
  tougeeven, ne meer foken; de meersten L??d seggt "Metz", in de s?lvig
  Meen'n.

  In miin W??rb?kers kunn ick ne recht wat finnen, wat door an verwandt is-
ne
  in Oul Sassisch, ook ne in Oul Ingelsch or in Oul Frees'sch.
It moderne Westerlauwersk Frysk hat ek "knyft", foar in grut m?s, d?r'tst
bygelyks b?le meis nijst. Yn it easten wurdt it ek foar b?smessen br?kt.
It Noardfrysk hat ek "knif", "kniiw" esfh. Dit is nei alle gedachten stipe
fan
it oanbuorjende Skandinaafks (it hoecht net liend te w?zen: it Aldfrysk hie
it
ommers al en de ?ntjouwing is ek l?dwettich).


  1. Watt meent Jii, woneem dit Woor herkoomen deiht? Kunn dat woll van de
  oulen Wikingers koomen?
  2. Is dat woll een Woord, wat uns "Platt" sick van dat Ingelsche utleent
  hett?

  ***
  Greutens/sincerely

  Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

  ----------

  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  Subject: Etymology

  [English below]

  Dat is 'n intressante Saak, mit dey Du vun daag' an-k?mst, leyve Jonny.

  Dat Old-Sassische wourd is _sahs_ (> Saks ~ Sax). Dat kanst as 'n lang
mets
  (~ mess) or as 'n kort sweyrd beschryven. Dat harren sey schynts tou 't
  warken un vechten bruukt. (Daar k?mt ook Skandinaawsch meyrtal _sakser_,
  _saxor_ etc. v?r _scheyr_ vun af.) Dat annere Old-Sassisch wourd is
  _metisahs_ (_metisahs_). Dat harren sey sachs by 't praat-maken un eten
vun
  spysen bruukt, wyl dat _meti_ (_meti_) 'eten', 'spys'' beduydt. (Vergl.
  Ingelsch _meat_, Deensch _mad_, etc.)
It Sealtersk hat noch Soaks foar "m?s".


  In 't Old-Neddervranksche weett wy man bloots vun _sahs_.
Ney-Nedderlandsch
  het _mes_ (< *_metisahs_).

  Ik kan ook keyn Old-Sassisch wourd vinden, dat mit Ingelsch _knife_
verwandt
  is. Ik neem an, dat _knyv_ vun 't Vreyssche or vun 't Skandinaawsche
  af-keym, sachs in Middel-Sassische tyden, in dey de Sassen eyn vout in 't
  nourd harren un sik poe-a-poe Vreyssch-sprakige rebeyden up d'n snavel
  reyten.

  Old-Ingelsch het _cn?f_, Old-Vreyssch _knif_, Old-Nourdsch _kn?fr_ (>
  _knif_, _kniv_, etc.), Middel-Hollandsch _cnijf_ (> _knijf_, _knijp_),
  Middel-Sassisch _kn?f_ (> knyv, knyp, > Middel-Duytsch _kneif_).

  Nu wy weett dat dat Old-Sassische un das Old-Neddervranksche d?t wourd
nich
  hebt man Middel-Sassische un das Middel-Neddervranksche dat wourd wul
hebt,
  daar koent wy wul seggen dat dat eyrder vun 't Vreyssche as vun 't
  Skandinaawsche af-keym, wyl dat de twey spraken sik in Vreyssch-sprakige
  rebeyden breyd moeken. Dat 't vun 't Skandinaawsche af-keym is man nich
  unmoeglich. Dat 't 'n Ingelsch leenwourd is, dat gloyv' ik nich.

  Kumpelmenten,
  Reinhard/Ron
It liket earder mien-Germaansk te w?zen, mei guon fari?teiten dy't it
bewarre hawwe,
en de measten dy't it ferlern hawwe...

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henno (benoarden):

> It liket earder mien-Germaansk te w?zen, mei guon fari?teiten
> dy't it bewarre hawwe, en de measten dy't it ferlern hawwe...

Ach, ja, Henno! Tank. Dit is de dredde mooglikheid, net te ferjitte.

Folks, Henno presented the third possibility, his suggestion, regarding
_knyv_ etc. for 'knife' in Low Franconian and Low Saxon: they are common
Germanic and have been preserved in some varieties, not in others (with the
implication that they just are not found in extant ancient texts).

I have another question regarding Afrikaans.

In Afrikaans, there is no inherited "this" vs "that" opposition of the sort
we find in English, Low Saxon (_dit_ ~ d?t_ vs _dat_) and Dutch (_dit_ vs
_dat_).  Afrikaans has just _dit_ as a generic, and it has the compounds
_hierdie_ (< "here that/the") for 'this' and _daardie_ (< "there that/the")
for 'that'.  I wonder if there is some (assumedly indirect) Frisian
influence, given Westerlauwer Frisian _dit_ meaning both 'this' and 'that'.
Do you also say *_dit hjir_ and *_dit d?r_ or *_hjir dit_ and *_d?r dit_
respectively in Frisian?  Are there (assumedly mostly coastal) Low
Franconian varieties that have a similar system (perhaps due to Frisian
substrates) from which Afrikaans might have inherited it (rather than
Afrikaans having "simplified" the system by itself or due to different
influences)?  How about Zeelandic?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr  7 23:59:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:59:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]
Message-ID: <THU.7.APR.2005.165941.0700.>

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (07) [E/F/LS]

At 02:46 PM 04/07/05 -0700, Ron wrote:

  Folks, Henno presented the third possibility, his suggestion, regarding
  _knyv_ etc. for 'knife' in Low Franconian and Low Saxon: they are common
  Germanic and have been preserved in some varieties, not in others (with
the
  implication that they just are not found in extant ancient texts).
>From Claiborne The Roots of English:
"GEN-, like gel-1, another catchall root (see below).  Its supposed meaning
was "compress into a ball," whence KNEAD, but also ? various Gc words
describing compressed KNOBY things and ?? others meaning sharp blows.  The
"knobs" include CLUB, NUB, KNUCKLE, KNOLL (a "knob" of ground), and ? KNOT,
whence KNIT (originally = tie with a knot).  The "sharp blows" group
includes KNOCK, KNACK (originally = sharp blow), and KNACKWURST - a sausage
that cracks (German knackt) sharply when cut or bitten.  More remotely
connected - if at all - is KNIFE.

The diverse descendants of this alleged root suggest that here, too, we're
actually dealing with two or more different ones - probably not even
Indo-European.  Their descendants are found only in Gc - which,
incidentally, was rich in non-I.E. words beginning with KN (modern examples
are "knave" and "knight", which five centuries ago were pronounced as
spelled).  So - why not call it a Germanic root and be done with it?  Ask
the experts!"

Ed again:  perhaps originally the "knife" in question was more of a
"cleaver", with which one appears to hack at the meat.

Ed Alexander

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 14:30:46 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:30:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.073046.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>So - why not call it a Germanic root and be done with it?  Ask
the experts!"
<

OED gives   Germanic  *kni(bar b)az of uncertain etymology   Sorry can't do
a 'bar b' in Compuserve.
Partridge suggest it might be related to LG knipen  G kneifen  = to nip .
Perhaps from those old type shears that one squeezed to close the cutting
edges over one another?????

Heather

----------

From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]

Dag Jonny,

> in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*,

Dutch has two forms, _knijf_ en  _nijf_ both meaning 'knife'. _Knijpen_
existst next to 'nijpen' as 'knop' to 'nop', and D.'knagen' vs Hg 'nagen'.
Cognates of 'nijpen' are found in Md., MLg _nipen_, Onorse _hnippa_, Lit.
_gnybti_, Let. _knebt_.

Too complicated for conclusions,

Groeten,

Jo Thys

----------

From: klaus schmirler <KSchmir at online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]

From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>

> Ed again:  perhaps originally the "knife" in question was more of a
> "cleaver", with which one appears to hack at the meat.

And I still miss the obvious theory: related to kneipen/knipa &c., to
pinch. Which might suggest that the original knives were either regarded
as a utensil to keep your food in place, rather like the fork of current
use, or blunt enough to hurt more than they cut.

klaus

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]


To: Lowlands-l at Lowlands-l.net
From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Subject: Re: LL-L "Etymoloogy" 2005.04.07 (09) [E/]

Ed Alexander wrote (regarding _knife_):

<probably not even Indo-European.
<Gc- which...was rich in non-I.E. words beginning in KN...
<So- why not call it a Germanic root and be done with it?

Yes, Ed, Ron, Henno & all, it is tempting to conclude that _knife_, _knief_,
and _kniv_ don't go back all that far, that they aren't really Indo-European
in origin, possibly Northern Germanic.

However, Gothic, an Eastern Germanic language, gave us _kniwa_ for a
war-blade; a Latin text of the third century A.D. (or C.E., as you prefer)
mentioned a Gothic chieftain named "cniva" --written in Latin
transliteration-- as a Chieftain who specialized in training his men
especially in the blutruenstige Kunst ---bloody craft--- of knife-fighting.

Also, the root goes back a good deal farther. Hittite featured _kenuezi_ and
_kunanti_, to beat to death, and beaten to death, respectively (but not
respectfully!);

Old Church Slavonic had _gniti_ for hunt, beat, slay;
Tocharian A had _kanuemp_ for "slay-tool";
Old Irish had _gnaida_, for "slays, kills";
Finally, reconstructed Proto-Indo-European: _ghnanti_, _ghnenti_, "beat,
beaten".

Perhaps the etymology on this occasion is one derived from function or
purpose rather than strict name. Thus, we may be witnessing the "evolution"
not only of the word "knife", but also the evolution of the weapon itself,
from a battle-borne bludgeoning stick to a SHARP battle-borne bludgeoning
stick! Isn't it wonderful how far mankind has come in a few thousand years?

Hails alleiksamma!

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 15:14:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:14:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.081445.0700.>

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From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (04) [E]


Hi all,
This thread touched a nerve among many experiences that I have had here in
Luxembourg. Many Luxembourgers are proud of their language, and their
insistence to use it has brought some backlash from those  visitors and
workers from Belgium or France who would have nothing to do with learning
even the most elementary words and phrases in Luxembourgish. Their attitude
is that French is superior because of it's unique position of being the
language of the people that brought culture to the rest of the western
world. Just the other day, in a supermarket an elderly Luxembourgish lady
was asking where is the perfume section in her language of a clerk whose
reply was that she did not understand Luxembourgish, that she only spoke
French and was visibly irritated with this customer. This went on for a bit
until some Luxembourgers around who understood French got involved and let
the clerk know how rude she was, after all parfume is pronounced the same in
both languages. This was not the first time that I have observed rudeness on
the part of the French living and working here. Germans on the other hand do
learn some Luxembourgish, but are condescending in that they regard
Luxembourgish as just another novel little dialect of German. For many of
the younger Luxembourgers that I have met and talked to, when approached in
either one of the above languages, they respond in either Luxembourgish or
English, with no apologies made. I asked one young woman who understood
perfectly French, why not just answer back in that language, and she told me
like where have I been all my life, French is just so not cool. When pressed
for a better answer, she said that she was tired of the imperialism of the
French language, and if people can not understand her language, then she
will just reply in English because everyone should know English. For her,
and the others of her group, English represented being free of either French
or German. This is not the position of all the young, but it is interesting
that some are actively choosing English rather than other languages to
converse in.
I have to agree with Criost?ir, official status means virtually nothing when
not put into practice, or to force those governments to put into practice
agreements that were signed when becoming members of the EU. However,
Roger's suggestion that Esperanto would be a means of preserving minority
languages is I think, in the end, impracticable. Mimicking natural languages
is not a guarantee that minority languages would be preserved. Only by
speaking would these languages be preserved. English as being used by the EU
as the language of communication instead of French or German does not mean
the end of the minority languages. Quite the opposite I believe. It has
nothing to do with any agendas of those nations in EU, plus it is has the
position of being a leading language of business. More people in Lithuania
know English than French. The only real opposition that I could is for those
nationalists who believe that the use of English would somehow further the
American cultural takeover of Europe. But, I guess that leads us back to the
question of language vs. nationality.

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (06) [E]


Mark Brooks wrote:
"I have a question related to this. Didn't Latin have a similar status
regarding the Church and the Academy back in the Middle Ages? At the time,
those two institutions would have played a similar role in some respects to
the role of governments today, no? That fact didn't prevent Latin from dying
out... or was it already dead as a language spoken by the common people?"

I cannot speak for Latin, but my remark on the Irish Government's treatment
of Irish refers to the Government's stated policy of Irish "as the national
[and] first official language" in the 1937 Constitution being completely
ignored. In reality, it is nigh on impossible to interact with official
agencies in Ireland without English. Over 99 per cent of parliamentary
debates are in English. Cabinet meetings are in English. Bills and acts are
rarely published in Irish, and usually only after long delay. Internal
communication in official agencies is almost entirely in English. Irish is
no longer a compulsory school subject, nor is it a prerequisite for
government employment as had previously been the case (ironically enough
however, even today, 60-90 per cent of government employees - with the
notable exception of the Defence Forces - still return themselves as Irish
speaking according to census data). Irish-medium education has been resisted
by a number of government departments. The Government is even moving away
from the established policy of giving Irish names to state agencies. Irish
is not used at all on temporary public signage, and presented in a smaller,
italicised font on permanent signage. Government websites are hardly ever
bilingual. Nearly all Government paperwork (polling cards, registration
forms, advertisements, etc.) is in English only.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (04) [E]

I think that all efforts to keep languages alive would be better if
all regions adopted the Welsh idea that there is no escaping education
in the native language but by leaving the region.

Surely, if for example Ireland followed the example of Wales, it would
soon be a fully bilingual nation? Southeast Wales, which hasn't been a
Welsh-speaking area for many centuries now, has kids there now who
converse in Welsh because they need it for school.

Many minority languages have in the past been literally beaten out of
children.

I don't see why a total immersion approach in schools could not work
the other way as well (except without the cruel measures against
speaking the native tongue - the teacher speaking the language is one
thing, but whipping students into speaking it as well is torture in
either direction), and it saddens me that so far only Wales has
totally implemented this.

I think the reason for this is that many people are badly educated
about bilingualism, and are afraid that Welsh-medium or Irish-medium
or Limburgish-medium or S?l`ring-medium &c. education will result in
stunted growth of proficiency in the national language (English,
English, Dutch, and German respectively in these examples).

But really. Please. It just hurts so much to see that so many language
revival efforts go on for even 30 or more years doing nothing more
than 2nd-language education for adults (evening classes). This is not
going to bring your language back. If this is all you do, you can kiss
your language goodbye right now.

Educating children through the medium of the indigenous/minority
language is the only sure way to revive or preserve it. In most
nations there is a curricular requirement that all students learn the
national language as well. This isn't a problem - one class period can
be used for this, and the medium should probably be the national
language. Does this injure the effectiveness of the school environment
in reinforcing the role of the indigenous language as dominant? No, it
does not as long as use of the national language by teachers is
restricted to that particular class period.

In addition, there is the problem of what to do with kids with passive
fluency. (this means kids who will hear a question in the
indigenous/minority language but answer in the national language) The
answer is very simple. The teacher should not cruelly insist that the
student use only the indigenous/minority language, but rather work
_with_ the student, constantly encouraging - but not forcing - the
usage of the indigenous/minority language and reinforcing fluency by
continuing its use as the medium of instruction through all levels of
education, ultimately including tertiary education (this is a
"hopefully" - you can complete university degrees in New Zealand
through the medium of Maori, but this doesn't always nessecarily
follow secondary education, especially depending on the structure of
the tertiary education system in the particular country).

Mark

----------

From: Te M?l <aksjetemal at yahoo.de>
Subject: language politics


Sie haben geschrieben:

---One might suggest including German versions of these messages, since
Germany is the other country with indigenous Frisian populations and North
Germans are among the few populations outside the Netherlands that even know
what the word "Frisian" means.

Machen wir nat?rlich gerne:

Liebe Leute,
die B?rgerinitiative Te M?l ist w?tend wegen des neuen Kulturabkommens
zwischen der Provinzverwaltung von Friesland und der niederl?ndischen
Regierung. Darin sind Ver?nderungen festgelegt, die mit dem W?nsch des
Provinzparlaments, die Gleichwertigkeit von Friesisch und Holl?ndisch zu
erhalten, streitig sind. Wir haben unseren Wut in einem Brief ans
Provinzparlament ge?ussert. Sie finden den Brief und Pressenachrichten auf
Friesisch und Holl?ndisch auf unserer HP www.temal.tk.

Aksjegroep Te M?l
foarsitter Elbrecht Claus

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Folks,

There are some great views, observations and suggestion being discussed
here.  However, it seems to me that nothing can truly be implemented until
the various governments are willing to do so, and to bring this about, the
voters must truly want them to and must express this at the ballot boxes and
in campaigns.  Success in Wales is not due to a minority-minded, benevolent
spirit having suddenly overcome public servants at Whitehall and Cardiff but
to true efforts having been made by the people of Wales, including political
campaigns.

Much is being said about the hostile attitudes of France, to a degree also
of Italy and Greece, regarding minority language rights.  But let's face it:
at least their politicians are honest and outspoken about their views
(albeit because of their self-righteously hierarchical and nationalistic
mindsets).  What I find more insidious are those administrations that pay
lip-service to the European Language Charter but in reality find it stupid,
unnecessary and dangerous and thus have no intention of supporting actual
implementation, might even sabotage such efforts more or less secretly.
(And aren't budgetary problems the ideal cover story?)  This is much more
difficult to deal with, and it is a recipe for disaster in conjunction with
wide-spread apathy, complacency, na?vit? and ignorance, which is what the
naysayers' camps count on.  Awareness through education is thus of vital
importance.  Without it you can moan and groan until you're blue in the face
without most of the concerned people even really understanding what you are
going on about.

There are numerous examples.  Among the latest are German state universities
not supporting continuation of "Low German" (Low Saxon) studies, and the
Netherlands government being unsupportive of minority language rights,
listening to the Dutch-only organization Onse Taal and trying to turn back
the clock.

Just take a look at today's news from Eurolang
(http://www.eurolang.net/news.asp?id=4987) to get a taste.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

<quote>

In yet another display of French contempt towards linguistic diversity,
Senator G?rard Longuet stated that learning Catalan ?has no interest at all?.
Another senator, Hugues Portelli, coordinator for the Erasmus Exchange
Programme at the University Paris II, assured that ?the French students?
stay in Barcelona is aimed at learning the language of the country - Spain?.
He went further by saying that ?we have been forced to forbid students to do
the exchange programme in Barcelona, since the university courses are being
done in Catalan?.

</quote>

<quote>

In an interview with the German daily ?Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung? on
Tuesday, Czech president Vaclav Klaus rejected a gesture of goodwill towards
members of the remaining German minority in the Czech Republic.

Mr Klaus said that ?this was not a topic of discussion in the Czech Republic
today?.

[...]

In the interview Mr Klaus also rejected the European constitution, which
includes a clause on the protection of minorities. He repeated his often
expressed point of view that the constitution will seriously limit the
?sovereignity of Europe?s nation states?. During a panel discussion in
Berlin recently President Klaus called the European unification process
?artificial?.

</quote>

<quote>

End of Low German department at the University of G?ttingen What has been
feared for so long has now finally come true: after 50 years of existence,
the Department of Low German at the Georg-August-University of G?ttingen in
Lower Saxony has shut down. The commentary to the courses for the summer
semester starting on 1 April 2005 reads: ?Due to the financial constraints
of the federal state government, the philosophy faculty sees itself forced
to close down the department of Low German Language and Literature of the
Seminar for German Philology in 2005. From the summer semester 2005 new
matriculations will no longer be possible for the masters subject Low German
Philology.?

Prof Dr Dieter Stellmacher who has held the chair in Low German in G?ttingen
since 1976, will be an emeritus professor this year and the chair will not
be replaced after that.

?G?ttingen was the only university in Germany that offered Low German
philology as an independent discipline and where Low German can be studied
as a full-value major subject?, says Dr Reinhard Goltz, spokesman of the
Federal Council for Low German from INS, the Institute for Low German, to
Eurolang.

?At other universities Low German is merely integrated into another subject,
usually German studies; it is not secured structurally at all into studies?,
he adds.

Low German studies are not only threatened at G?ttingen University, but also
nationwide, a process which Prof Dr Jan Wirrer, Chairman of the Society for
Low German linguistic research, sees as connected with current budget
cutting trends in higher education policy, resulting in the threat to Low
German philology.

?It?s a fact ? and the process in G?ttingen gives a clear example ? that all
prospective posts that will become available in the future will be under
threat?, Prof Wirrer recently said in a press release.

There used to be six universities with a chair for Low German. They no
longer exist in Greifswald and M?nster. There are chairs in Hamburg and
Rostock. In Kiel the chair may be renewed this coming winter semester.

At the end of February, the Parliament of the Land of Lower Saxony adopted a
resolution for the support of Low German at schools and universities and to
maintain at least one chair for Low German language and literature in Lower
Saxony. The move is also in compliance with the obligations the Land has
committed itself to under the European Charter for Regional or Minority
Languages.

However, Prof. Wirrer says that ?the Charter for Regional or Minority
Languages is a politically blunt instrument that is mentioned once over
Sunday dinner, but is not used as a guiding principle for political action?.
Despite this criticism Prof. Wirrer hopes that the Charter?s implementation
will be more than just lip service.

One of the chief and most severe problems remains the lack of qualified
teachers. ?The schools urgently need qualified teachers that are capable of
conveying language and culture in a way that the outcome is greater than
merely the accidental chanting of songs or the participation in reading
competitions?, said Prof. Wirrer, adding that, ?philology as a companion of
current linguistic and cultural processes is indispensable to a language
community. However, the end of all this is looming in Lower Saxony.?
(Eurolang ? 2005)

</quote>

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 19:02:01 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:02:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (03) [E]
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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]


Roger wrote:

"... you will have to learn English
which is a de facto devaluation"

Allow me to disagree.
If it?s done right... but I repeat myself.

"the EU converses with its citiizens in any of the 20 official
languages -
in practice you can forget it if you are unable to use english."

Here I agree, Roger, even more reason to introduce it
with ALL the precautions necessary, and to learn it.

"If minority language speakers want to take action to preserve their
language
they should support the idea of "Esperanto" as a 2nd language for
everyone.."

Why would English devaluate, and Esperanto would not?
It?s all a question of what legal (and de-facto) status
you give to the 2nd, common language. Esperanto is great
but the de-facto status of English is such that it?s use
as a European and World lingua franca has some chances
of succeeding, whereas Esperanto has not, as much as
I hate to look this sad fact in the eye...
So let?s not fight a lost cause but CONCENTRATE on
safeguarding our linguistic diversity in face, and with
the HELP of English.
Mike Wintzer

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 19:31:50 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:31:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.08 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.123150.0700.>

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (06) [E]


Mark wrote:

...Latin from dying out...or was it already dead as
a language spoken by the common people?

Question to all:
When has a language to be considered as died out?
When it ceases to be used in its original form?
Which form? Latin has changed over the centuries
and never died out, only changed its name into...
Italian, Fri?l...
Is that a fair statement?
Who will enlighten us?
Mike Wintzer


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Mike!

Point taken, but ...  Would you really, in the real world, expect or advise
those speakers to say or write "Latin" as an answer to questions about their
native languages, or even "Italian Latin," "Friuli Latin," etc.?  Would
speakers of English, Danish, Frisian, German or Afrikaans say "Germanic,"
"Norse," "Low Franconian," etc.?  Technically speaking you may be right, but
... come on now, Mike!

Old English is extinct, or "pass?" or whatever you want to call it, but
English is still very much alive.

However, having said this, whether or not Latin (_lingua latina_ in the
actual, narrow sense) is alive or extinct is indeed a valid question, in my
opinion.  While it is no one's native language, it continues to be used, not
only in writing but in some communities (such as among Roman Catholic clergy
and in Latinophile circles) also as a spoken language.  The same applies to
Sanskrit, which is even still spoken as a lingua franca in Hinduism and, to
a far lesser degree, in Buddhism (in some institutes as a mandatory
language), is even used in radio broadcasting (also by Deutsche Welle),
though not as a native language.  (Today's Indo-Aryan languages are, broadly
speaking, descendants of Sanskrit, but speakers of Hindi, Marathi, Nepali,
Bengali or Gujarati would never dream of listing their languages as
"Sanskrit," not even as "Prakrit," which they technically are.  Classical
Chinese is still written and read, but it is neither native nor spoken (and
its sounds are only reconstructed theoretically), being pronounced in the
various modern "dialects" if need be.   Given all this then, are these
languages extinct (and artificially maintained) or are they still alive?
Can a liturgical-only language (such as Church Slavonic or Coptic Egyptians)
be called alive?  The fact that a liturgical and scholarly language can be
revived as a native language can be seen in the case of Hebrew (which
meanwhile causes native speakers to have very distinctive "accents" while
speaking other languages).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 20:03:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:03:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.130311.0700.>

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]


Roger wrote:

"... you will have to learn English
which is a de facto devaluation"

Allow me to disagree.
If it?s done right... but I repeat myself.

"the EU converses with its citiizens in any of the 20 official
languages -
in practice you can forget it if you are unable to use english."

Here I agree, Roger, even more reason to introduce it
with ALL the precautions necessary, and to learn it.

"If minority language speakers want to take action to preserve their
language
they should support the idea of "Esperanto" as a 2nd language for
everyone.."

Why would English devaluate, and Esperanto would not?
It?s all a question of what legal (and de-facto) status
you give to the 2nd, common language. Esperanto is great
but the de-facto status of English is such that it?s use
as a European and World lingua franca has some chances
of succeeding, whereas Esperanto has not, as much as
I hate to look this sad fact in the eye...
So let?s not fight a lost cause but CONCENTRATE on
safeguarding our linguistic diversity in face, and with
the HELP of English.
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


Mark wrote:

I think that all efforts to keep languages alive would be better if
all regions adopted the Welsh idea that there is no escaping education
in the native language but by leaving the region.

Mark, I predict that you will be criticised as a radical,
just as I am criticised when I wrote, keep writing:

a language only has a chance of surviving if in its geographical domain if
it is de jure AND de facto THE PRIMARY language.

My question would be:
What is wrong with having to leave a land if you are not
willing to learn its language???
(Andorra, [among others?] implicitly applies this practice, through its
practice of extending residency permits.)

Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


Ron wrote:

 However, it seems to me that nothing can truly be implemented until
the various governments are willing to do so, and to bring this about, the
voters must truly want them to and must express this at the ballot boxes and
in campaigns.

Voters whose languages might have been denigrated, snuffed out,
maybe generations ago, cannot vote in an unbiased manner.

Why has "Maastricht" survived? Because it was not submitted to
referenda in all countries. Why will the "Constitution" fail?
Because it will be voted down. Democracy means that, supposedly
and hopefully, cool-blooded and responsible politicians elected by
popular vote, will make decisions free from campaign emotions.

Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


Ron quoted:

In yet another display of French contempt towards linguistic diversity,

Another example: The Occitan weekly LA SETMANA no. 496 quotes from
a French Interior Ministry Report (rapport Benisti), where it
is stated that speaking French in the family will prevent the
children from becoming criminals (sic!). The paper concludes:
Donc lo fait de parlar lo "patu?s de son pa?s" es assimilat a un factor
favorable a la delinqu?ncia.

For your information,
Mike Wintzer

---------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


From: Lowlands-L
To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 4:14 PM
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


I am glad to see that the subject, almost everytime it comes up, can arouse
so much interest and so many reactions. I was delighted to read through the
postings, Irish, Welsh, Letzebuergish, S?lring, Maori, LS...Wow!
Great postings!!!
Now, at the danger of repeating myself or even sound irritating: To me the
World, past and present, proves that a language only has a chance of
surviving if in its geographical domain it is de jure AND de facto THE
PRIMARY language in ALL areas of public life, education, administration,
media.
Larry, what in the world is it that prevents the Luxemburgers from making
their language their - only - state language (which would in no way prevent
them from continuing to learn and use other languages)?
Larry, I?d like to ask this provocative question: Is there perhaps a bit of
inferiority complex involved in face of the "major" languages???
Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (02) [E/German]


Mark wrote:

It just hurts so much to see that so many language
revival efforts go on for even 30 or more years doing nothing more
than 2nd-language education for adults (evening classes). This is not
going to bring your language back. If this is all you do, you can kiss
your language goodbye right now.

Look around in history and in the present to find heaps of lamentable
examples...

Mike Wintzer

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 22:16:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:16:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.151609.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (01) [E]

Leeve Klaus,

Du schreevst:

> ... or blunt enough to hurt more than they cut.
Sou'n Kroom heff ick all foken in mennigeen K?kenschapp funnen!!

Smiling Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen, Jonny, Klaas (= Klaus) un annere Leyglanders!

> > ... or blunt enough to hurt more than they cut.
> Sou'n Kroom heff ick all foken in mennigeen K?kenschapp funnen!!

Dat kanst wul seggen!  So wat k?mt my jammer noug ook vaken in de moyt (un
ik b?n nich bloots 'n listen-baas man tou huus' ook noch 'n koyken-baas).
Oever messen vun den slag seen myn v?r-?ldern "Daar kanst mit up d'n
Boksbarg ryden," un ik seg dat af un an vun daag' noch.  Kint Jy dey segwys'
ook?

Uns Jonny couldn't help making the remark that he often finds items of the
sort in the kitchen cupboard. I comiserated, having made similar unfortunate
finds too often myself, being not only a list _baas_ but at home a kitchen
_baas_ of sorts as well.  My ancestors used to say about any really blunt
knife, "You could ride (on)to Bocksberg* on it" (*the Harz mountain on which
witches congregate on Walpurgis Night).

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (08) [E/]

Hi all,

About knife:

What about the Afrikaans 'klief'? Did the /kn/ go into /kl/ mode?

Do you also have similar forms in other LL languages meaning
'to cut' or 'split into two'?

Example in Afr: Die straler klief deur die lug.

Groete,
Elsie
 _knyv_ / "knave" / knight
Ed again:  perhaps originally the "knife" in question was more of a
"cleaver", with which one appears to hack at the meat.

Ed Alexander

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 22:19:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:19:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.08 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.151929.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.08 (04) [E]


Ron wrote in reply to Mike Wintzer:
"Old English is extinct, or "pass?" or whatever you want to call it, but
English is still very much alive. However, having said this, whether or not
Latin (_lingua latina_ in the actual, narrow sense) is alive or extinct is
indeed a valid question, in my opinion."

In my opinion, languages can only die when absolutely all record of them has
been lost and they can no longer be revived as a native tongue, as in the
case of Beothuk, Pictish and a number of others. Cornish was declared
extinct over and over, yet it now has many native speakers and many more
speakers who learnt it as a second language. That is why I try to popularise
the usage "dormant language". Hebrew is an example of a "dormant language"
that now has millions of monoglot speakers. Latin would be a truly dormant
language given that it has no native speakers, but is still used communally
and liturgically.

Of course, there is a third category - namely, reconstructed languages.
These have "died" but been "reborn" - their rebirth is based on conjecture.
Examples here include neo-Prussian, Palawi Kani (a reconstructed indigenous
Tasmanian language). Common Cornish (Kernewek Kemmyn) fell into this
category (it has been derided as "Cornic") until it obtained native
speakers.

Lastly, we may include constructed languages that claim no lineage, such as
Esperanto, Volapuk and Klingon, which are used to some extent but have no
native speakers. (Although I am sure I will be corrected here, and deserve
to be if I have misunderstood the nature of Esperanto or Volapuk.)

(By the way, Ron: Sanskrit is not only still widely used, it is also an
official language of India. I think that is "official" in the same way Irish
is "official" - i.e., on paper.)

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.08 (04) [E]

Ron wrote: "Given all this then, are these languages extinct (and
artificially maintained) or are they still alive?"

I once heard a man who was an adherent of Process Philosophy and Theology
who said that we have a word for something that doesn't change, namely
"dead."  Now, if you accept as a premise that only living things change,
then you might say that Latin is dead, because in its literary form it is
"calcified" into written works.  But, if those present day speakers, such as
priests, etc., adapt it to present day reality by adding new words, then you
might day it is still alive.  To me Latin is in a state much like Lenin
was/is in his tomb - he's preserved in an almost unchanging form, and you
certainly wouldn't say he's alive ;-)

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr  8 23:19:10 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:19:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.8.APR.2005.161910.0700.>

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From: kt4nn at juno.com <kt4nn at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (03) [E]

> So lets not fight a lost cause but CONCENTRATE on
> safeguarding our linguistic diversity in face, and with
> the HELP of English.

I agree with Mike. English can provide the enterprise to give Germanic
Languages opportunity.

The linguistic diversity begins at home. But many have no spouse or children
to pass the language down.

But we can learn more language until something happens.

      Peter Sorensen

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (05) [E]

Mike, the problem with your suggestion about Letzebuergesch is that
the common viewpoint in Luxembourg will most likely be that it isn't
economically viable (although it really is; it's just going to be hard
for people to fathom an international business haven in Luxembourg
with such restrictions).

Re the French interior ministry's comments on "patois": The entire
post-revolutionary French government should be shot. Seriously, these
people care more about national unity than the concerns of their
constituents. La fran??ais est la langue de la republique, no matter
what!!! You want to have a Breton-medium public school? Our answer: La
fran??ais est la langue de la republique. You want to require all civil
servants in the French portion of Basque country have a certain degree
of Basque fluency? La fran??ais est la langue de la republique. You
want to set up a regional parliament with the regional language as a
co-official language? La fran??ais est la langue de la republique. You
want to? La fran??ais est la langue de la republique. You? La fran??ais
est la langue de la republique. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts - la
fran??ais est la langue de la republique, and a tool for linguistic
oppression of les minorit??s at that.

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

I agree with Mike (yes, Mike, buddy, I do agree with you at times) at least
as much (but actually more than) that it is nice to see so much passionate
response to this topic (Mike's not coming as a surprise, of course).  It is
heartening to see that a lot of thinking about this subject area is going
on, and I sense many a glimpse of wisdom in the postings.

With time (and maturity or simply "crotchetiness") it is becoming
increasingly obvious to me that in European language politics people tend to
deal with surface symptoms more than with underlying causes, more than with
age-old ingrained views and attitudes.  Despite much talk about unity,
Europe has really not evolved very far from the tribal society stage, at
which one tribe has one language (variety). This has been expanded to the
nation state, as if to a super-tribe, which in a way it is, the historical
pattern being that one tribe conquers others, creates a "federation" and
imposes its culture, beliefs and language on the conquered.  It ought
therefore not come as a surprise if the thought pattern "unity requires
uniformity" still predominates, most clearly expressed in France and Greece
and lately also in the Czech Republic.  It does not matter how much and how
passionately you praise the idea of diversity within unity, the average
European -- having seen ideologies come and go -- sticks to the ideal of
"one country, one language," pays lip-service at best, and considers
alienation between related people across arbitrary political boundaries a
price that needs to be paid.  People, languages and cultures are being filed
away in compartments.

In my experience, the average European still considers diversity within one
country a negative thing, a type of obstacle or hardship that needs to be
dealt with by removing it.  This comes to the fore most clearly in
xenophobic expressions regarding "foreigners" (which may have lived within a
given country all their lives, or for generations, if not for centuries).
We saw it happen during the last Danish and Dutch election campaigns, both
countries considered "liberal" by most standards, also in the recent school
attire debacle in France ("Islamic dress is un-French"), and in many a
European politician's chauvinistic remarks about Turkey's ambitions to join
the European Union, and we see it in Germany's persistence in labeling and
treating generations of German-born Turks and others as "foreigners," just
as generation after generation of locally born Roma and Jews have
traditionally been seen and treated.

>From xenophobia vis-? -vis real or labeled foreigners to xenophobia vis-? -vis
indigenous minorities is but a tiny step.  By speaking differently you
declare yourself a type of foreign body, and that's not a good thing,
especially when you have been given glorious opportunities for "upgrading"
to a new nationalized person.  Given such attitudes, why should people want
to embrace diversity and pay for it, pay for "special" (= "foreign")
education that perpetuates the "foreignness" of "those people"?

When I visit Europe and share such observations and views, people tend to
react with attitudes like "it's really more complex than you know" and "it's
easy for you to judge, being used to living in melting pots."  The
underlying tenor tends to be that places like the Americas and Australia
have *chosen* diversity, that it is self-imposed, that places like Britain,
France, Belgium and the Netherlands are paying for having colonial pasts,
while most of Europe didn't ask for it, can't or won't put up with it.

I firmly believe that reluctance and hostility vis-? -vis European language
rights are rooted in all of this and that nothing will change unless more
fundamental attitudes change.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: But then again, perhaps I *am* just weird as a result of being
European, Australian and (as of next Monday afternoon) American at the same
time.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  9 19:40:47 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:40:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.9.APR.2005.124047.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.07 (01) [E]


I believe English will become an "Esperanto for everyone"; it is already
losing its role as "Language of the English", who are minority speakers of
the language anyway.  It will then fall on us in England to strengthen and
codify our own dialects, rather think of them as "slang", as is commonly
believed.

Paul

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]


The trouble with English "providing the enterprise to give Germanic
Languages opportunity" is that the "English" that becomes most popular with
education, especially amongst non-native English speakers, is the "pidgin
Latin" variety.  Ask any Singaporean, Taiwanese, or Indian which is "better"
English - dig or excavate, think or contemplate/cogitate/consider, home or
residence; the list goes on.

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks, Paul.  I share your prediction and suggestion regarding the role and
future of English.

To a vast degree, English has grown into a neutral language already, which
is what I think you implied.  I feel that what holds many people back from
accepting this is that English happens to be a first language of many and is
by many still associated with colonialism, which prompts them to associate
the promotion of international English use with continuation of perceived
colonialism in the form of "Americanization" and domination of multinational
corporations.  I am sure that this is further strengthened by the European
obsession with the concept "one language, one ethnicity, one nation."  So
what I am saying is that English is factually a neutral language already,
just not in the minds of certain traditionally thinking people.  I am under
the impression that this role of English worries the speakers of "smaller"
languages less than those of "more important" ones, that in the instance of
the latter a sense of loser's chagrin is involved.

Having said this, of course there are some disadvantages in that English
orthography is not exactly "user-friendly," and acquisition is further
impeded by idiomatic phrases being particularly numerous and important, also
by the rate of change being particularly fast in English, in part because of
its easy adaptability and constant adaptation to new cultures and
technologies.  English phonology is not particularly easy to learn either,
what with an abundance of reduced vowels.  In some ways, among the "more
important" and wide-spread languages it would probably be Spanish that would
have been more suitable.  However, most learners of English seem to be doing
pretty well (and I have been watching many a new Lowlander's school-learned
English bloom after just a few months on the List).  I think we ought to
face facts and make the best of the development which is well under way, for
better or for worse.

I can see that in the future most native English speakers will be at least
bilingual in that they will know International English in addition to their
local English varieties, if not their national English varieties as well.
This will put them into pretty much the same position as everyone else: they
will have to learn International English as a non-native variety (though
acquisition is no doubt easier for them than for others).  To retain their
own separate identities and language-based cultures and also to safeguard
the neutrality of International English they would do well preserving and
developing their local English varieties.  I can see all of this leading to
a situation in which we will have a neutral international language and at
the same time considerable enrichment of the English language as a whole.

Thanks again, Paul!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  9 19:41:57 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:41:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.9.APR.2005.124157.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: Naming practices


Hello, all, I was very curious about this. When I check various sites that
deal with names, I see many of our English names that deal with wolves and
such. How did the pre-Christian Germanic tribes in the lowlands and
elsewhere tend to name their boys and girls? Was it shamanistic? That is,
was it related to events that surrounded the birth?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr  9 20:06:34 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:06:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.09 (03) [E/F/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.9.APR.2005.130634.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (07) [E/F/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> I have another question regarding Afrikaans.
>
> In Afrikaans, there is no inherited "this" vs "that" opposition of the
> sort
> we find in English, Low Saxon (_dit_ ~ d?t_ vs _dat_) and Dutch (_dit_
> vs
> _dat_).  Afrikaans has just _dit_ as a generic, and it has the
> compounds
> _hierdie_ (< "here that/the") for 'this' and _daardie_ (< "there
> that/the")
> for 'that'.  I wonder if there is some (assumedly indirect) Frisian
> influence, given Westerlauwer Frisian _dit_ meaning both 'this' and
> 'that'.
> Do you also say *_dit hjir_ and *_dit d?r_ or *_hjir dit_ and *_d?r
> dit_
> respectively in Frisian?  Are there (assumedly mostly coastal) Low
> Franconian varieties that have a similar system (perhaps due to Frisian
> substrates) from which Afrikaans might have inherited it (rather than
> Afrikaans having "simplified" the system by itself or due to different
> influences)?  How about Zeelandic?

It Westerlauwer Frysk hat sawol "dit", "dat" , "dizze", "dy".
Ik wit net hoe ofst dit misbegryp yn 'e wr?ld kommen is... Yn it Noardfrysk
(mooring benammen) binne der al foarmen as "j?heer", j?deer", mar dy binne
tink ?ntstien trochdat 'j?' al it lidwurd is (froulik) (dy binne de basis
foar de lidwurden), en de gearfal fan lidwurd en oanwizend omnamwurd blykber
as ?nhandich ?nderf?n waard... It sil ek mei stipe krige ha fan de Jutske
dialekten, dy't neffens my ek sokke foarmen hawwe.

> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Tank, beste Henno.

Mar binne "dit", "dat", "dizze" en "dy" ek wurde met ferskillene
betsjuttinge?

> Ik wit net hoe ofst dit misbegryp yn 'e wr?ld kommen is...

Miskien meidat net gen?ch goe? Fryske wurd- en learboeke te fine binne?

Groetnis,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (01) [E]

Jonny wrote:

>> in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*,
>
Beste Jonny,

mien Vadder hett ook ummer "Knief" to?n Klappmess seggt, aver nie nich
to?n K?kenmess. Mag ween, dat dat vun "canif" ut dat Franz?ssch stammen
deit, dat is denn ook?n Klappmess. In ole Tieden hebbt de betern L??d
vers?kt Franz?ssch to parleren.

Mit Kumpelment.
Utz H. Woltmann

---------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (06) [E/LS]

Elsie wrote:

> About knife:
>
> What about the Afrikaans 'klief'? Did the /kn/ go into /kl/ mode?
>
> Do you also have similar forms in other LL languages meaning
> 'to cut' or 'split into two'?

Beste Elsie,

wi hebbt "kl?ven" orrer "opkl?ven" in Neddersassisch , wat nipp un nau
dats?lvige bed?den deit.

Mit Kumpelment.

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.08 (06) [E/LS]

Dag, Elsie,

"about knife" You wrote:

> Do you also have similar forms in other LL languages meaning
> 'to cut' or 'split into two'?
>
> Example in Afr: Die straler klief deur die lug.

Yes, we have: LS: "*cloeuven* (Holt) ['Hest Diin Holt f??r 'n Winter all
kloeuvt?']", E: "to chop (wood)", G: "(Holz) spalten, hacken".

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 16:52:20 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:52:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.095220.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.09 (03) [E/F/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Tank, beste Henno.
>
> Mar binne "dit", "dat", "dizze" en "dy" ek wurde met ferskillene
> betsjuttinge?

Jawisse: dit == Nl dit, dizze == Nl deze, dat ==Nl dat, dy == Nl die.
Dus dizze, dit foar tichteby (dit = ?nsidich, dizze = foar de-wurden en
meartallen)
en dit, dy foar fierder. (dit = ?nsidich, dy = de r?st)

>> Ik wit net hoe ofst dit misbegryp yn 'e wr?ld kommen is...
>
> Miskien meidat net gen?ch goe? Fryske wurd- en learboeke te fine binne?

Dit is yndie in saak dy't better kinne soe. Mar it haadstik yn
Routledge "The Germanic Languages"
(d?r't Nederd?tsk ek in plakje yn hat) oer it Frysk befettet al frijwat
ynformaasje, ?nder oaren
oer it omnamwurddsysteem. En fansels hast de "Frisian reference
grammar" fan Tiersma, dy is yn it Ingelsk
en frij wiidweidich. en der is in goed Frysk-Ingelsk, Ingelsk-Frysk
wurdboek s?nt in pear jier.

> Groetnis,
> Reinhard/Ron

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 16:54:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:54:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language status" 2005.04.10 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.095411.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Language status

Found this today at noon about Dutch in Germany
on: http://teletekst.nos.nl/tekst/106-01.html
Regards,
Roger

 106     Teletekst za 09 apr

 Nederlands populairder in Duitsland

 M?NSTER In de Duitse deelstaat Noord-
 Rijnland-Westfalen kiezen steeds meer
 studenten voor het vak Nederlands.Op de
 middelbare scholen volgen zo'n 16.000
 leerlingen Nederlandse les.

 In het hoger onderwijs is het aantal
 studenten Nederlands de afgelopen vijf
 jaar verdubbeld,tot 400.Er is dan ook
 een tekort aan leraren.

 Omgekeerd is er minder belangstelling:
 het aantal Nederlandse studenten Duits
 is twee tot drie keer zo laag als het
 aantal Duitse studenten Nederlands aan
 de universiteit van M?nster alleen al.
 Volgens deskundigen vinden de meeste
 Nederlanders Duits te moeilijk.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 16:55:25 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:55:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.10 (03) [E]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.09 (02) [E]


I've always thought it curious that even after conversion, the English
continued to give "Wolf-" names as Christian names - Archbishop Wulfstan is
an obvious case.  There is a strange double standard in Germanic (and
doubtless other) traditions regarding predators, especially wolves; they
were admired, and their names adopted as symbols of strength and cunning,
yet they were deliberately hunted to extinction.  And an outlaw was a
"wulfesheofod" -- Wolf's-head.
I gather that when Israel was founded, and parents wanted to give the first
generation kids Hebrew but non-biblical names, there was a fashion for
"Bear", "Lion" etc for boys, and flowers for girls.  Interesting that
English-speakers still use flowers for girls, but few use predators for
boys, though I gather Wulf remains popular in Germany, also Bjorn and Arne
in Scandinavia .  Our name Ernest is probably a rare survivor - and few
probably know it has anything to do with eagles!
Maybe some of the folks of other nationalities on the list can give me other
examples?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 17:45:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:45:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (04) [E]
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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.09 (01) [E]


Ron wrote:
"I am sure that this is further strengthened by the European obsession with
the concept "one language, one ethnicity, one nation"..."

I have been following this debate from the sidelines, having been too busy
otherwise to jump in, as much as I have wanted to.

Two points:

Firstly, English is absolutely _not_ a neutral language. From the point of
view of someone whose ethnic languages (Cornish and Irish) have been largely
extirpated it, the "English is a neutral economic necessity" only lends
weight to those who would oppose the strengthening of Cornish and Irish. In
Ireland especially, there has been a vocal movement against Irish, basing
their argument on a supposition that Irish is not only uneconomic, but that
the adoption of English by the Irish has in effect been a godsend.

Secondly, notions of "one language, one ethnicity, one nation" is hardly
European. Americans and increasingly Australians are the ones who confuse
"nation" with "state". Hence Americans talk of "the nation" where they mean
state structures. They were the first to refer to "one nation [under God]".
Regardless of the origin(s) of Americans, more and more refer to themselves
as "American" on census forms (as do Australians and Canadians) - clear
signs of "one ethnicity". I do not even have to describe in depth the fact
that both the United States and Australia have utterly monolingual
English-only policies (California banned bilingual education, remember),
even though their is no official language in either.

English is a killer language. Don't let its utility deceive any of you
otherwise.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]


Mark Williamson wrote:
"...the problem with your suggestion about Letzebuergesch is that the common
viewpoint in Luxembourg will most likely be that it isn't economically
viable (although it really is; it's just going to be hard for people to
fathom an international business haven in Luxembourg
with such restrictions)."

Of course. Every language (even the like of Livonian) is economically
viable. Money doesn't care which language uses it. Economic arguments are
excuses for no change. Ironically enough, where the change is substantial,
businesses - at least in Europe - are usually enthusiastic drivers of the
process. In Wales after the Welsh Language Act 1993, businesses soon adopted
limited bilingualism as a form of corporate social responsibility.

Mark also wrote:
"Re the French interior ministry's comments on "patois": The entire
post-revolutionary French government should be shot. Seriously, these people
care more about national unity than the concerns of their constituents."

I wholeheartedly agree. The same can be said of English in the United States
and Australia. "Anglais est la langue de la peuple, et l'?tat."

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]


Mark wrote:

hard for people to fathom an international business haven in Luxembourg
with such restrictions

which restrictions? Having a national language of its own?
At the international crossroads, LX will always have to deal
with, and be conversant in, other languages.

Or were you referring to "having to learn the language or leave"?
This obviously would not apply to a business, but it would only
be fair to apply it to those of its agents who seek resident status.

What?s your view, Mark? What?s your view, Lowlanders?

Mike Wintzer

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]


Ron, you wrote:

...as of next Monday afternoon...

Is there reason for congratulations?!

Mike Wintzer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Cr?ost?ir,

You points are well taken.  Bear in mind, though, that my critical remarks
about European attitudes ought not be taken as endorsing other existing
attitudes, American, Australian or whatever.

Having said this, please remember that, while they have conventions, the
United States have *no* language policy, certainly nothing enshrined in the
constitution as it is in France and other European countries, thereby, at
least in theory, leaving the door open for another language to take the
lead.  This is why some groups want to introduce a federal "English only"
policy, decried as fundamentally racist by many in the opposition.  Changes
in California are within educational policies on the *state* level, favored
by a succession of conservative-dominated governments.  The federal
government has no say in this, though the federal supreme court will be able
to endorse it or strike it down when it is brought before it.  However,
school districts in "liberal" areas (such as the San Francisco Bay Area) are
finding ways around the conservative-lead political changes.  Furthermore,
bear in mind also that Spanish as a second language, at least, is being
forcefully pushed throughout the States, and is a requirement for a large
percentage of job positions especially in the southwestern states.  This is
rarely the case in European areas in which minority languages are used, not
even in administrative positions.

The United States, Canada and Australia used to pursue intregration policies
that were hostile to linguistic and cultural survival in indigenous and
immigrant communities.  They all changed this in the 1960s and 1970s.
Canada and Australia put a lot of money into their diversity support
policies, and many immigrant languages do very well in those countries, also
in the United States.  Maltese and Timorese, for instance, had a lot of
speakers in Australia and, with government support, had media representation
even when they did not do well in their countries of origin.  Cantonese,
Hokkien and Mandarin are doing extremely well in all three countries, being
represented strongly in the media, as is Spanish in the United States.  For
decades now, Canada Day and Australia Day have been celebrated with the
strong message of encouragement for maintaining various family-heritage
languages and cultures as Canadians and Australians.

The point is that being American, Canadian or Australian is not seen as
belonging to a certain ethnic group, while nationality and ethnicity, and in
extension language use, *is* widely considered as "ideally" coinciding in
conservative European views.  Being different (which includes belonging to
any indigenous minority) is still widely considered alien, problematic,
obstinate and even "foreign" in Europe, while this is far less so in
American, Canadian or Australian societies.  Despite my "accent" and my
"weird" ways and opinions, Australians and Americans always tend to err on
the side of assuming that I am a citizen of their respective countries just
by virtue of living there.  In Europe this tends to be the opposite.  People
speaking "foreign" languages and having non-mainstream cultures, religions
and dress are by default assumed to be foreigners, even for generations and
centuries, as I mentioned before.

Cr?ost?ir, I can understand that English is by no means neutral to
linguistic minorities of Britain and Ireland.  However, it is my impression
that it is becoming so in the rest of the world.

> Economic arguments are excuses for no change.

Right-o, daddy-o!

> Ron, you wrote:
>
> ...as of next Monday afternoon...
>
> Is there reason for congratulations?!

Thanks, Mike.  That's entirely up to you and your views.  Let's just say
that I am gaining something without giving up anything.  Furthermore,
nothing will ever change my cosmopolitan status, though there's no piece of
paper for that (yet).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 18:38:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:38:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.04.10 (05) [E/B]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.113826.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Hi all,
Ingmar, some time ago I've given in a posting to LLL, a listing of Afrikaans
words originating from Malay. The LLL archives should still have these.
On Ron's  questions:
Yes, _huis-huis_ implies continuation (We are playing house)
_Die kinders loop lag-lag winkel toe_(The children run to the shop laughing)
_Sy het hink-hink daar aangekom_ (She arrived there while limping)

Yes: >double adjectives/adverbs expressing intensity: (e.g., _gou-gou_ 'very
fast',
No: _nou-nou_ means 'in a short while'. [I'll say this to request patience.]

Yes, Maleis means Malay and Slams derives from Islam. Many older Cape
people refer to themselves as being 'Slams' meaning Muslim and from Cape
Town.
The earliest Islamic population to arrive in the Cape were Muslim after they
have been forcibly expatriated from the Indonesian archipelago by the Dutch.
It seems from historical writings that they were allowed to take their
religious
leaders with them, hence the earliest writings being religious.
The largest Muslim population in South Africa are still the descendants from
these groups and they are still predominantly Afrikaans speaking despite a
lot of
resistance by younger people to admit it.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: ?j??r?kr ?j??reksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"


Primo
I'm still experimenting a bit with good spellings for the dialect so please
forgive me any inconsequencies - I as well have to get used to writing
spoken language. (For this reason I fear my version of the Wren is also not
as consistent as I'd like. When will it be officially published by the way?)
Remarks, questions, anything will be gladly heard from my side as it would
be ideal if foreign Lowlanders could also read what I write, just like I can
read their Low Saxon spelling without too much problems.

Secundo
Ouver dit/dat enzoevaaier b? oengs in Aantwaarpe (en Broabant in et
algemie?n):
Et OA.N. ei twie? geslachte, deze/die en dit/dat.
Waai emme d'r draai (dad un gedroage gel?k et grutste die?l van oengs
adzjektieve)

*mannelek deize(n)/dieje(n)
[De -n- verschent as et volgende wourd begint m? 'ne klinker of m? 'n d/t/b]
*vraawelek deis/die
[W?rd oek gebrouikt veur mie?rvaawde]
*onzaaideg deis/da(d)
[De -d verschent as et volgende wourd begint m? ne klinker. D, z en v w?rre
stemloe?s ?tgesprouke achter "da"]

***
About this/that &c. in Antwerp (and a big part of Brabant as well I think)
Standard Dutch has two gender-differing forms here.
We have 3, they have a lot of characteristics (qua inflection) in common
with normal adjectives.

*masc. deize(n)/dieje(n)
[The -n- appears when the next word begins with a vowel or with a d/t/b]
*fem. deis/die
[Is also the plural form]
*neut. deis/da(d)
[The -d- appears in front of a vowel. D, z and v become voiceless t, s, f
when they follow "da"]

Diederik Masure
didimasure at hotmail.com

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 19:16:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:16:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.121652.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary + New Yank 2005.04.10


Liobothai Dalalandarje!

Tomorrow Reinhard Hahn takes the blood-oath of U.S. citizenship. Although I
am anything but nationalistic, I offer my sincere congratulations.

The United States have always needed, and sometimes produced, people of
great courage and compassion t fight for human and minority rights. It is a
side of American immigrant character that has oft been eclipsed by other,
darker spirits.

The USA --and indeed the world-- need more like you, Ron. What a neat way to
cap off the Lowlands-L Tenth Year Anniversary! I can almost hear the strains
of Haendel's music echoing to the fireworks. Or was that gunshots? And was
the music really Pachtelbel? Or Buxtehude?

Anyhow, congrats, frijand mein.

Arthur

Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Thank you so much for your kind, albeit somewhat premature, words of
congratulations and welcome, dear Arthur.  It will be tomorrow in the late
afternoon (no way of telling with that lot) that (after a long and
bureaucratically torturous ride) I will be officially declared
potentate-free, at least as far as this persona is concerned, and that's
just dandy with me, for I've never been exactly a fan of potentates and
hierarchies.

It took me decades of maturing to arrive at a place where I can feel that
with such a step I am not endorsing current predominant attitudes, policies,
laws, government officials and the like, but am officially tying the knot
with an idea and an ideal that is worthy, though unfortunately far from
being realized.  The official rejection of hierarchies ("All men are born
equal"), assurance of fundamentally guaranteed freedoms, and separation from
the state yet freedom of religion, are good enough for me, and so it should
be if it was good enough for the likes of Albert Einstein and other great
_mentshn_.  I suppose there's room for me somewhere in a pool with a span as
wide as to accommodate the likes of  Richard Butler, Jerry Falwell, Noam
Chomsky and Angela Davies, not to forget the likes of you, Arthur, and Robin
as well all my other precious, passionate and compassionate American friends
on the List and elsewhere.  This sort of thing is also what I had embraced
in passionately outspoken, rough-and-tumble yet deeply compassionate, caring
and incredibly generous Australia, something I greatly admire in Canada as
well (though, of course, the latter two are not [yet] potentate-free).

So, thanks, dear Arthur!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 20:57:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:57:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.135711.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (04) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>
English is a killer language. Don't let its utility deceive any of you
otherwise.<

But only because people make it so.

Of it self it is just a means to an end - communication

The value / importance real or imaginary laid upon it is put there by
people.

When I lived in Wales, I had to fend off attacks by 'ardent' Welsh language
supporters who argued that my Grandfather would not have had to wear the
Welsh NOT   ([A wooden board with NOT carved in it. It was placed round the
neck of any pupil heard speaking Welsh and could only be got rid of by
passing it to another pupil heard speaking Welsh ( i.e. to encourage
children to snitch on each other) ]

My reply was twofold
1. My grandfather would have worn the Norfolk NOT. The NOT board was not
solely to be found in Wales. National Education in mid 19th century had as
one of its aims the learning of The Queen's English so that all children
would have freedom of movement throughout the land and freedom from
snobbery and prejudice engendered by use of unintelligible dialects. It was
important ( as seen then) that people should be able to move to an area and
not find themselves hampered by lack of intelligibility.

What was not understood or taken on board was that Queen's English was
meant to lie parallel with own's own language not replace it. And this
leads to my second point.

2. It was Welsh teachers who hung the Welsh NOT around the pupils' necks -
not English teachers - who were busy hanging similar devices round
Hampshire , Sussex, Yorkshire , Devon etc children's necks. The Welsh
middle class abandoned their Welsh language in the home  because they
believed it would give their children a greater advantage in the world if
their English was good/perfect.

It is amusing/strange/ obvious/ interesting that it is exactl;y this same
group of people who have led the revival of Welsh in Wales ... in order to
secure a good job one has to be a Welsh speaker.

If any one is to blame it is the middle classes who seem to think that a
single language will land a better job AND who do not understand that bi-
or even polylingualism is a natural human talent.

Those parents who have supported understanding and skillls in many
langauges / dialects are the ones to be lauded, so that others can be shown
that the idea of 'giving up ' one language for another is NOT the way
forward.

Heather

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (04) [E]


Ron wrote:
"...please remember that, while they have conventions, the United States
have *no* language policy, certainly nothing enshrined in the constitution
as it is in France and other European countries, thereby, at least in
theory, leaving the door open for another language to take the
lead."

I did make reference to that in my initial response. It is bitterly ironic -
sickening, in fact - that Ireland, which has an official national language,
pretends it does not, and that Australia and the United States, which have
no official languages, pretend that they do.

Ron also wrote:
"The United States, Canada and Australia used to pursue intregration
policies that were hostile to linguistic and cultural survival in indigenous
and immigrant communities. They all changed this in the 1960s and 1970s."

Canada excepted (I actually believe the Canadian experience of official
languages is most instructive, although it could be improved upon in terms
of the treatment of indigenous languages), multi-culturalism (in Australia
at least - I cannot and would not like to speak for the United States) is
superficial. Indigenous languages are still as threatened and
administratively ignored as ever, even in areas where they are the main
idiom spoken. While it is possible to obtain government information in a few
languages, not all immigrant languages are catered for.

One example in particular made no sense to me. During the recent state
election in Western Australia, electoral information was available in a raft
of languages. Arabic, Greek, Dutch, Italian, German, the various Chinese
languages, Thai and Vietnamese were demographically justifiable. Yet the
same information was not made available in any of the indigenous languages,
despite a relatively higher rate of spoilt ballots in areas where English is
a second language. Nor was it available in Welsh, even though there is a
substantially first-language Welsh-speaking community in Perth. However,
inexplicably, the information was available in both Amharic and Tigrinya,
even though hardly any of the Ethiopian- or Eritrean-born speak these
languages according to census data (the main language among Ethiopian
households was English with 14.3 per cent and among Eritrean households was
Arabic with 57.3 per cent). What is more, only 400 Ethiopians and 240
Eritreans actually live in Weste rn Australia. There are far more native
Welsh speakers (at least 2,200 in WA alone if my projections are accurate),
and many, many more indigenous language speakers. It was utterly
wrong-headed, and breeds a certain amount of cynicism toward the exercise in
the first place.

Who chooses which languages fall under "multi-cultural" and which ones are
left to fend for themselves? Yes, most Welsh speakers have very good
English. But, according to census data, so do most Ethiopians and Eritreans.
(Indeed, Ethiopians have the best knowledge of English of any ESL Australian
immigrant group at 84.6 per cent speaking English "very well or well".)
Certainly to me there is no justification for demanding that non-English
speaking Aboriginals interact with officialdom in English.

Ron wrote:
"For decades now, Canada Day and Australia Day have been celebrated with the
strong message of encouragement for maintaining various family-heritage
languages and cultures as Canadians and Australians."

I am less optimistic, Ron. One of the defining facets of the identity of
Australian officialdom is that it is Anglophone. Citizenship ceremonies -
including the oath - are in English only. Australia Day is an
English-speaking day. Official ceremonies that took place in other languages
would not be treated with contempt, but they would be seen as a bit odd.
Multi-culturalism is superficial and minimal, and geared towards ensuring
that yes, family-heritage languages survive, but that they stay in the
family and in the home. I strongly believe this attitude of linguistic
discouragement contributes to a general Australian unwillingness to see the
utility in learning languages other than English.

Lastly, Ron wrote:
"Being different (which includes belonging to any indigenous minority) is
still widely considered alien, problematic, obstinate and even "foreign" in
Europe, while this is far less so in American, Canadian or Australian
societies. Despite my "accent" and my "weird" ways and opinions, Australians
and Americans always tend to err on the side of assuming that I am a citizen
of their respective countries just by virtue of living there."

Yes, because you communicate through English. Many Australians believe you
are refusing to integrate ("abusing their hospitality") if one does not
speak English all the time, even to one's own children. Indeed, disciplining
children for using indigenous languages in the playground is still known - I
have seen it personally. But, as I should point, that is my own personal
experience, and everyone's is different.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (06) [E]


Ron wrote of his citizenship ceremony:
"It took me decades of maturing to arrive at a place where I can feel that
with such a step I am not endorsing current predominant attitudes, policies,
laws, government officials and the like, but am officially tying the knot
with an idea and an ideal that is worthy, though unfortunately far from
being realized."

Can you take ceremony in languages other than English? What a service you
would do if you took it in Low Saxon!

?dh m?r agus comhghairdeas agatsa a chara,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hey, Cr?ost?ir!

Again, I feel there's no basic disagreement between you and me.  We're just
looking at the same things in slightly different ways and accordingly react
differently.  I am now looking less at manifestations of political and
bureaucratic mindlessness, more at basic intents.  It is far easier to
change the former (globally endemic though it may be) than to change the
latter.

> It is bitterly ironic - sickening, in fact - that Ireland, which has an
> official
> national language, pretends it does not, and that Australia and the United
> States, which have no official languages, pretend that they do.

I totally agree.  And, no, the Oath of Allegiance can be said in English
only.  Furthermore, despite the absence of a language policy, the
"naturalization" process includes an English exam (which the officer gave
me, also a third-grade English dictation (!), even though I was officially
exempted thrice, having lived here for more than 20 years, having immigrated
from a factually English-speaking country and having degrees from
English-speaking universities -- but who dares to argue with an INS officer,
now belonging to Homeland Security?)  I have discussed this with a few
people here, who argued that it is a pragmatic rule, because in reality you
can't survive without English, to which I countered that having survived for
22 years ought to be sufficient proof.  (The minimum number of years is
five, and that's a long time to survive, too.)

> Many Australians believe you are refusing to integrate ("abusing their
> hospitality") if one does not speak English all the time, even to one's
> own children.

This is not my experience, but perhaps I frequented different social
circles.  Only once did I hear a guy scream at Vietnamese speakers on a
public bus in Perth for this reason, and several other assumedly born and
raised Australians, as well as yours truly, told him to shut the #$&@ up and
leave those people alone.

> Yet the same information was not made available in any of the indigenous
> languages, despite a relatively higher rate of spoilt ballots in areas
> where
> English is a second language.

Oh, yeah!  The same happens here, also in Canada, according to reports.
Federal government information, public health guides, etc., are routinely
sent not only in English but also in Spanish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Khmer,
Laotian, Korean, Amharic, Tigrinya and Russian, often also in (Haitian)
Kreol, Hmong, Arabic, German, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian and others, but not
in indigenous languages, usually not even to areas with high concentrations
of speakers of these.  So speakers of Lakota, Navajo, I?upiaq, Yup'ik,
Gwich'in, Koyukon, Tanaina, Tanana, Ahtna, Kuskokwim, Aleut, Tsalagi
(Cherokee), Choktaw, Cajun French (1 mill.!), Mennonite and non-Mennonite
Low Saxon, Pennsylvania German, Gullah and other languages of wider spread
or higher concentration can get their hands on Laotian material, not on
material in their own languages (and this includes language communities that
did not *choose* to be a part of the country).  But again, Cr?ost?ir, these
are "only" cases of bureaucratic mindlessness.

Heather (above):

> But only because people make it so.
>
> Of it self it is just a means to an end - communication
>
> The value / importance real or imaginary laid upon it is put there by
> people.

Hear, hear!

> It is amusing/strange/ obvious/ interesting that it is exactl;y this same
> group of people who have led the revival of Welsh in Wales ... in order to
> secure a good job one has to be a Welsh speaker.
>
> If any one is to blame it is the middle classes who seem to think that a
> single language will land a better job AND who do not understand that bi-
> or even polylingualism is a natural human talent.
>
> Those parents who have supported understanding and skillls in many
> langauges / dialects are the ones to be lauded, so that others can be
> shown
> that the idea of 'giving up ' one language for another is NOT the way
> forward.

Hear, hear, over and over again!  But I think I'm repeating myself, I think.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 10 21:19:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:19:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (08) [E]
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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (06) [E]

At 12:16 PM 04/10/05 -0700, Ron wrote:
>It took me decades of maturing to arrive at a place where I can feel that
>with such a step I am not endorsing current predominant attitudes,
>policies,
>laws, government officials and the like, but am officially tying the knot
>with an idea and an ideal that is worthy, though unfortunately far from
>being realized.  The official rejection of hierarchies ("All men are born
>equal"), assurance of fundamentally guaranteed freedoms, and separation
>from
>the state yet freedom of religion, are good enough for me, and so it should
>be if it was good enough for the likes of Albert Einstein and other great
>_mentshn_.  I suppose there's room for me somewhere in a pool with a span
>as
>wide as to accommodate the likes of  Richard Butler, Jerry Falwell, Noam
>Chomsky and Angela Davies,

You forgot Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau.  When the latter
was incarcerated for not paying tax that would be used for military
purposes (I'm a little foggy here, so bear with me), and was told that he
had to pay it because he was a "citizen", he wrote that he did not consider
himself a member of anything he did not join, and when the former paid him
a visit at the jail and asked him what he was doing in there, Thoreau
countered by asking Emerson what he was doing out there.

>This sort of thing is also what I had embraced
>in passionately outspoken, rough-and-tumble yet deeply compassionate,
>caring
>and incredibly generous Australia, something I greatly admire in Canada as
>well (though, of course, the latter two are not [yet] potentate-free).

Just in case you're not just having us on, this would really be a matter of
definition, wouldn't it?  Don't forget that Canada actually has more than
two major political parties, several of which are actually not controlled
by the military-industrial complex.

Anyway, I hold citizenship in both countries and am proud of
both.  Recalling my own Canadian swearing in of several years ago, I wish
you all the best at yours.

Ed Alexander

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Ed (above):

> Anyway, I hold citizenship in both countries and am proud of
> both.  Recalling my own Canadian swearing in of several years ago, I wish
> you all the best at yours.

Thanks, Ed.  It's not the first time for me, but I doubt that this time
around I will be given hugs and a red rose (which I got in Fremantle,
Western Australia).  Those folks I encountered this time did not strike me
as belonging to the touchy-feely kind.

Dual citizenship and more is becoming increasingly common (and most of the
ca. 100,000 Australians currently living in the US are expected to take
advantage of it).  Germans and many others, too, may now apply to retain
their citizenships after naturalization or may retain it by default.
Hopefully, this is the beginning of something better to come.  Alas, I doubt
I'll still be around when they simplify the paperwork to a single global
citizenship.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:14:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (09) [E/LS/German]
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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (04) [E]

Ah, but Ron, the US does have a language policy.

It isn't written, but it's extremely obvious. What would happen if a
congressman submitted legislation in Navajo to be voted on? Would the
President ever give his state of the nation speech exclusively in
Spanish? Is there a single law on the books written in Chinese?

The fact of the matter is, there is a sort of unwritten federal law
stating that all business of the government is to be conducted in
English and only English, with the exception of certain popular
interactions (for example, I believe the white house website is
bilingual).

Mark

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (07) [E]

 believe you can vote in Navajo, and I'm pretty sure you can take the
census in Navajo.

The main reason for this is because Navajo speakers make up the
majority in two counties, and therefore make up the majority of voters
for a particular congressional district.

The irony here is that most Navajos cannot read nor write Navajo. This
is because the same man who invented the current Navajo writing system
was responsible for shooting their sheep and ordering others to shoot
their sheep in the late 1800s.

Mark

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (07) [E]

To put this in perspective: if English had been an unwritten language
until a year or so ago, when a writing system was invented by Osama
bin Laden, do you think most Americans would learn the writing system?

Mark

On Apr 10, 2005 4:03 PM, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe you can vote in Navajo, and I'm pretty sure you can take the
> census in Navajo.
>
> The main reason for this is because Navajo speakers make up the
> majority in two counties, and therefore make up the majority of voters
> for a particular congressional district.
>
> The irony here is that most Navajos cannot read nor write Navajo. This
> is because the same man who invented the current Navajo writing system
> was responsible for shooting their sheep and ordering others to shoot
> their sheep in the late 1800s.
>
> Mark

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.08 (08) [E]

Sehr geehrte Lowlander-Freunde, lieber Reinhard,

der Winter ist zwar auch in Nordeuropa im R?ckzuge begriffen, dennoch begebe
ich mich mit diesem Beitrag nach einigem Z?gern noch einmal wissentlich,
vors?tzlich aufs Glatteis. Damit ich mir aber keine zu argen Blessuren hole,
bediene ich mich nach l?ngerer Zeit mal wieder ausschlie?lich des
Hochdeutschen.

> P.S.: But then again, perhaps I *am* just weird as a result of being
> European, Australian and (as of next Monday afternoon) American at the
> same
> time.

Dir, lieber Reinhard, zun?chst an dieser Stelle meinen Gl?ckwunsch zur
endg?ltigen Globalit?t, die Du durch Verleihung  der US-amerikanischen
Staatsb?rgerschaft nun erreichen wirst!
Ich pers?nlich empfinde es ?brigens aus dem Herzen gesprochen, dass Du, aus
Deiner momentanen Sicht der Welt, von Dir selbst als einem Europ?er sprichst
und nicht als "Deutschem"- so habe auch ich es empfunden, wenn ich
transatlantisch oder transpazifisch weilte. Die kleinlichen europ?ischen
Grenzen waren pl?tzlich weit fort: statt dessen sp?rte ich unwillk?rlich die
kulturelle Gemeinsamkeit der europ?ischen "St?mme" und deren zwei- oder mehr
-tausendige gemeinsame Geschichte. All die vergangenen Auseinandersetzungen
der Duodezstaaten erschienen mir dann l?cherlich und vielfach unbegreiflich.

Gestatte mir jedoch bereits hier die Frage, wie lange Du, als sprachlich und
sozial integrierter Akademiker, auf Deine Einb?rgerung hast warten m?ssen?
Im Einzelnen wei? ich nur wenig ?ber Verfahrensweisen und Vorschriften der
US-amerikan. Beh?rden f?r Einwanderer, aber: selbst dort, in einem
traditionellen Einwandererland, ist wohl nicht jeder unter allen Umst?nden
jederzeit willkommen.

Ich beziehe mich dabei auf Deine Worte:
> When I visit Europe and share such observations and views, people tend to
> react with attitudes like "it's really more complex than you know" and
> "it's
> easy for you to judge, being used to living in melting pots."  The
> underlying tenor tends to be that places like the Americas and Australia
> have *chosen* diversity, that it is self-imposed,...

Kein Pole, kein Niederl?nder, kein Finne, kein Ungar, kein Neapolitaner oder
Portugiese (alle diese Nationen leben hier, in unserem kleinen Dorf von
gerade mal ca. 1.000 Einwohnern, weitab von jeder City, friedlich,
freundlich in toller Nachbarschaft zusammen) wird je wirklich ein Problem
haben, sich in Deutschland wohl zu f?hlen. In Deutschland f?hlt sich nur DER
unwohl, der deutsch (-europ?ische) Sitten, Freiz?gigkeit, offene, liberale
Lebensart, vielleicht Religionsaus?bung (oder eben keine; weltweit existiert
wohl nirgendwo eine so starke Areligiosit?t wie hier) ablehnt, gar bek?mpft.

> and we see it in Germany's persistence in labeling and
> treating generations of German-born Turks and others as "foreigners,"
Wenn klein-asiatischen Einwanderern, besonders deren Frauen und M?dchen,
noch in der dritten Generation wider ihren Willen von Seiten ihrer Familie
(!!) verwehrt wird, die deutsche Sprache zu erlernen, geht es gewiss schon
lange nicht mehr um die staatsabh?ngige Toleranz oder Int?leranz ihrer
Sprache und Eigenheiten.(In unserem Dorf leben aber auch Nicht-Europ?er:
zum Beispiel eine Frau aus der T?rkei- sie ist nicht zur Lehrerin
ausgebildet- unterrichtet unsere Kinder auf der Grundschule in der deutschen
Sprache.)

Wer nach "Amerika" (oder Australien, oder Argentinien, oder ...) auswandert,
ist bereit zu Integration und Ver?nderung.
Er/sie wei?: Du musst zupacken, Dir die Gewohnheiten, Br?uche, Strukturen
aneignen, willst Du Fu? fassen- die Systeme dieser Auswanderungs-L?nder
verlangen es von Dir!
Anders hier: europ?ische Sozialgesetze sind intern, national, bestenfalls
inner-europ?isch konzipiert, nicht an diese gerade jetzt, in unserer Zeit
geschehenden V?lkerwanderungen der Neuzeit angepasst.
Asylanten-Gastfreundschaft  wird wirtschaftlich missbraucht, und der
Integrationswille fehlt h?ufig. Das kann nicht dauerhaft funktionieren.

> In my experience, the average European still considers diversity within
> one
> country a negative thing,
Ist denn aber nicht gerade Deutschland ein gutes Beispiel f?r die Tatsache,
dass ein "Misch-Masch" verschiedenster Kulturen und Str?mungen selbst zum
Vervielfacher von Kultur wird? Immer wieder wird auf Grund jener man gerade
mal 100 Jahre w?hrenden, unseligen und schlie?lich im  uns?glichen
Nationalsozialismus m?ndenden  "Deutscht?melei" (von ca. 1850 bis 1950)
vergessen, dass dieses Land im Herzen Europas liegt, stets ein "Transitland"
war ("Tyskland"= "das Land dazwischen[??]"), von jeher und gerade heute
wieder ganz besonders. NICHTS w?ren wir wirtschaftlich ohne unsere Nachbarn,
ohne den Handel mit ihnen, und ohne den kulturellen Austausch weltweit
h?tten wir vermutlich nicht einmal die sog. "hochdeutsche" Sprache.
Und vielleicht w?rde es weder mich noch einen Reinhard Hahn geben, mit all
unseren quer und l?ngs durch Europa verlaufenden Wurzeln?!

Zur?ck zur Sprache dieser, ach so geschundenen Minderheiten in Deutschland:

In Norddeutschland scheint die Erkenntnis langsam Fu? zu fassen, dass etwas
f?r Niederdeutsch getan werden muss. Es gibt viele Lippenbekenntnisse, aber
es wird noch VIIIEEL zu wenig getan!

Die Bayern sorgen f?r sich selbst.

Die Sachsen (und ihre Sprache) vermag vermutlich nichts und niemand
auszurotten.

Die Sorben haben anscheinend noch nichts begriffen; es gibt so gut wie keine
jungen Menschen mehr, die ihre Sprache pflegen wollen.

Die D?nen haben eine Minderheit, die zuweilen Majorit?t bedeutet.

Die Zigeuner haben heute noch ihre eigenst?ndige Sprache; hat sich in den
letzten 150 Jahren nur wenig ge?ndert. Nur heissen sie heute, in bestimmten
"sprachklinischen" Kreisen, Roma und Sinti.

Die Niederl?nder sprechen mit uns hier "neddersassisch", manche auch
"neddersaksisch", und in der zweiten Generation nicht einmal mehr "Platt",
sondern nur noch akzentfreies Hochdeutsch...

Italiener und andere S?deurop?er sind ob ihres liebenswerten Akzentes aus
der Werbung f?r Konsumprodukte l?ngst nicht mehr wegzudenken.

Na, und- (siehe oben)  offen, tolerant und integrativ aufgewachsene
T?rk(inn)en k?nnen besser Deutsch als mancher Grundschullehrer! Die m?ssen
nur noch "Platt" lernen :-)!

Wenn eine Sprache stirbt, so wie von Vielen in diesem Kreise zu Recht
bef?rchtet, ist es kein Problem der Staatsgewalt, der Schulen, der
Universit?ten, sondern r?hrt fast ausschlie?lich daher, dass die Menschen,
die  Eigenheiten und Gebr?uche vergessen haben, nichts davon mehr
weitergeben, "tradieren". Sie sind zu faul, oft wirklich nur zu faul, um mit
ihren Kindern ?berhaupt noch und generell zu sprechen, geschweige denn in
der Sprache oder Tradition ihrer Eltern.

In Deutschland ist dies vielleicht besonders ausgepr?gt und nat?rlich auch
ein Erbe der sogenannten Nachkriegs-Generation, aber:

eine sprachlose Gesellschaft? Das ist offenbar eine Tendenz in allen
westlichen Kulturen, mit wahrhaft f?rchterlichen sozio-kulturellen
Konsequenzen!

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

PS:
To all Lowlanders, not grewn up within this language since drinking their
mother's milk: I am sorry for You; German is a real difficile language,
specially when it's written by J"J"M! Please forgive me.
JJM

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks for sharing your views and observations (above), Mark and Jonny.

Mark, we have mentioned before that the US have _de facto_ language
policies.  However, making them into actual laws or even enshrining them in
the constitution, as English-Only lobbyists demand, would be a totally
different matter in my opinion.  There's a good deal of difference between
_de-facto_ status and legal status.  As things stand now, the door is
legally open for Spanish or whatever other language to take the _de facto_
lead position away from English given demographic changes to this end.  This
may never happen should English be made *legally* dominant, not even if 80
or more percent of the population has Spanish (or whatever) as their first
language and pretty much everyone can use it.  This is what the English-Only
movement wants to estabilish, this and, by way of essentially monolingual
educational policies (as recently instituted in California and elsewhere,
i.e., turning native Spanish-speaking children into predominant users of
English), preventing the continued increase of Spanish usage in this
country, thereby guaranteeing continued dominance of English, come hell or
high water, no matter what demographic changes may come about.

However, interesting though this may be, allow me to turn to another
interesting matter, one I had been looking out for for quite some time.  It
concerns the status of _Plautdietsch_, namely Mennonite Low Saxon ("Low
German").  I just received the latest issue of _Plautdietsch-Frind_ (a great
periodical, http://www/plautdietsch-freunde.de), and it contains a
noteworthy article (in Plautdietsch) by Peter Wiens
(info at plautdietsch-freunde.de), editor of the magazine and president of
Plautdietsch-Freunde.  Peter is one of the sweetest language activists you
can ever hope to know, and I assume he will forgive me for passing his
article on to you followed by my English translation (admittedly written
down on the fly).  In this article, Peter concentrates on Germany's
situation, not on the fact that there are numerous other Plautdietsch
communities all over the world, especially in the Americas and in the former
Soviet states.  Within a few short years following the collapse of the Iron
Curtain, the Plautdietsch-speaking population in Germany grew from "further
ran" to the lead position in terms of numbers.

Dankscheen on bravo, leewe Peeta!  Dankscheen on bravo fe aules, waut Du
ves?kje on bestriede deist! Wie "Nadadietsche" -- Menniste on uck
Nich-Menniste -- kjenne Die daut nienich nuach loone, leewe Frint.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

NADADIETSCH
NADA PODUMATJ

Send dee Plautdietsche een ajchta Deel vonne groote Nadadietschgrupp?
Ooda doch eea eene ejne Mindaheite-Grupp?

von Peeta Wiens, Oerlinghausen

In Dietschlaunt lewe vondoag onjefea 200.000 plautdietsche Mensche. Wan
?onse Lied? no eare Identitet jefroagt woare, kome veschiedne Auntwode:
?Russlauntdietsche?, ?Mennoniete?, manch mol soogoa ?Russe? en foaken uck
eenfach bloos ?Dietsche?. Daut dise Mensche doabie uck Plautdietsche send,
daut es selwstvestentlich, woat oba selde jesajcht, wan maun frajcht: To
woone Grupp von Mensche jehescht du?

Wan maun daut jenau nemmt, jehere dee Plautdietsche en Dietschlaunt tom Deel
to diese veea Gruppe:

1. Russlauntdietsche Omsiedla
   (weajen Migratsjoonsjeschicht)

2. Mennoniete
   (weajnem Gloowe aum Aunfang vonne Jeschicht)

3. Nadadietsche en Dietschlaunt
   (weajne Sproakjeschicht)

4. Mindaheite-Gruppe en Dietschlauntj/Euroopa
   (ejne Sproak en Kultua vondoag)

Russlauntdietsche send dee meschte vonne Menniste en Dietschlaunt soowiesoo.
Onjefea 10 Prozent von dee ewa 2 Milljoone Omsiedla en Dietschlaunt habe
eenen plautdietschen Hinjagrunt. Dise Lied nane sich oba bloos noch selde
Mennoniete. Goot dee Halft von ahn feelt sich ewrehaupt met tjeene Tjoatj
meea vebunge, dee aundre Halft jehet to dee vele russlauntdietsche
Jemeindes, woone foaken uck Baptiste (-Breeda) en selde noch Mennoniete
(-Breeda) heete; foaken nant maun sich uck eenfach Frei-Evangelisch.

Waut aul dise veschiedne Plautdietsche emma noch to eene Grupp moakt, es dee
Fakt, daut se Plautdietsche send. Ooda weens von plautdietsche Ellre kome.
Wan maun sich nu oppe Sproakjeschicht konzentret, send dee Plautdietsche een
Deel von dee runt acht Milljoone Plattdeutsche (Niederdeutsch-Sprecher) en
Dietschlaunt. Dee Linguiste send sich eenich, daut Plautdietsch eene Oat
Nadadietsch es. Oba doch lidje tweschen ?onse Lied? en dee dietsche
?plattdeutsche? Nobasch zimlich groote Welte: een poa hundat Joa, gaunz
veschiedne Mentalitete, dee plautdietscha Dialekt es no dee Meeninj von vele
eene ejne Sproak jeworde... Send dee Plautdietsche en Dietschlaunt ooda
Euroopa vleicht doch eene ejne Mindaheite-Grupp soo aus dee Sorben, dee
Friesen ooda vleicht een bet soo aus dee Zejone?

Soo ooda soo: Aus em Jaunua 2005 dee niea ?Bundesrat f?r Niederdeutsch? en
Bremen to sienem Haulfjoarestrafe toopkaum, we tom eschten Mol eena von
?onse Lied? doabie. Enne Presse vom Institut f?r niederdeutsche Sprache
stunt aum 2. Feebua: ?Zum ersten Mal nahm ein Vertreter der Sprecher des
Mennoniten-Niederdeutschen [Peeta Wiens] als Gast an einer Bundesratssitzung
teil.? Enne neachste Tiet woat dee Veastaunt von Plautdietsch-Freunde e.V.,
dee eensje offizielle Organisatsjoon fe Plautdietsch en Dietschlaunt, sich
met Vetreda von Nadadietsch en EBLUL (Mindaheite-Sproake en Euroopa)
toopsate.

Wan wie Plautdietsche uck sproakpolitisch waut eretje welle, sull wie ons
onbedinjt om eenen offiziellen Status bie onse Oobrichtjeite tjemmre:
entweda aus Deel vom Nadadietschen, ooda aus ejne Mindaheita-Grupp unja dem
besondren Schutz von europeische Sproake-Charta...

***

NADADIETSCH
NADA PODUMATJ

Are Plautdietsch speakers really a part of the larger community of Low
Germans?
Or rather just a minority in their own right?

By Peter Wiens, Oerlinghausen
(translated by R. F. Hahn)

Currently, about 200,000 Plautdietsch people live in Germany. Whenever "our
folks" are being asked about their identity you'll get different types of
responses" "Russia Germans," "Mennonites," sometimes even "Russians" and
oftentimes simply "Germans." It goes without saying that these people are
Plautdietsch as well. But rarely are they asked, "To which group do you
belong?"

Strictly speaking, Plautdietsch people in Germany belong partly or wholly to
the following four groups:

1. German-Russian Migrants
   (due to migration history)

2. Mennonites
   (due to religion in early history)

3. Low Germans in Germany
   (due to language history)

4. Minority in Germany/Europe
   (own language and culture today)

Most Mennonites in Germany are Russia Germans anyway. About 10 percent of
over two million repatriated persons in Germany have a Plautdietsch
background. These people rarely call themselves Mennonites. More than half
of them don't feel connected with any church. The rest frequents the many
Russia German congregations in which you often encounter Baptists
(Brethren), rarely Mennonites (Brethren), and the label "Free Evangelical"
is used often enough.

What makes all these diverse Plautdietsch people still one community is the
fact that they are Plautdietsch, or because they are descendants of such.
When we focus on language history we find that these Plautdietsch people are
a part of about eight million Low Germans in Germany. Linguists unanimously
agree that Plautdietsch is a type of Low German. However, there is a
considerable distance between "our folks" and the German "Low German"
neighbors: a few centuries, very different mentalities, and Plautdietsch has
grown into a [separate] language in the opinion of many ? Might the
Plautdietsch people of Germany or Europe be a minority in their own right, a
bit like Sorbs, Frisians or even Gypsies?

In any case, when the new "Federal Council for Low German" convened for its
biannual meeting in January 2005, it was joined, for the first time, by "our
folks." According to a February 2 press release by the Institute for Low
German Language, "for the first time, a representative of the speakers of
Mennonite Low German [Peter Wiens] participated as a guest at the meeting of
the Federal Council." In the foreseeable future, the steering committee of
Plautdietsch-Freunde e.V. ? the only official organization for Plautdietsch
in Germany ? will meet with representatives of Low German of EBLUL (Minority
Languages in Europe).

If we Plautdietsch people wish to accomplish anything in language politics
we definitely need to see about official status, either as a part of Low
German or as a minority group in its own right, under the protection of the
European Language Charter ?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 04:36:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:36:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (10) [E/LS/German]
Message-ID: <SUN.10.APR.2005.213632.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: language politics

[Find English bits farther down, after German and Low Saxon niceties.]

Jonny wrote:

> der Winter ist zwar auch in Nordeuropa im R??ckzuge begriffen, dennoch
> begebe
> ich mich mit diesem Beitrag nach einigem Z??gern noch einmal wissentlich,
> vors??tzlich aufs Glatteis.

Nu Du dryst un eerlich noug weyrst ??m Dy in de loywen-kuul tou trouen, loyv'
ik Dy man bloots heyl sachtens tou byten. N??mst my dat den sachs nich v??r
ungoud, ook nich dat ik 't up Ingelsch dou. Weetst ja, dat ik Dy lykers leyv
hev, lyk as al de annern Leyglanders (tou minst nu wy us "zusammengerauft"
hebt).

> Dir, lieber Reinhard, zun??chst an dieser Stelle meinen Gl??ckwunsch zur
> endg??ltigen Globalit??t, die Du durch Verleihung  der US-amerikanischen
> Staatsb??rgerschaft nun erreichen wirst!

Wees bedankt, leyve Jonny! B??st 'n leyven keyrl.

> Ich pers??nlich empfinde es ??brigens aus dem Herzen gesprochen, dass Du,
> aus
> Deiner momentanen Sicht der Welt, von Dir selbst als einem Europ??er
> sprichst
> und nicht als "Deutschem"- so habe auch ich es empfunden, wenn ich
> transatlantisch oder transpazifisch weilte. Die kleinlichen europ??ischen
> Grenzen waren pl??tzlich weit fort: statt dessen sp??rte ich unwillk??rlich
> die
> kulturelle Gemeinsamkeit der europ??ischen "St??mme" und deren zwei- oder
> mehr
> -tausendige gemeinsame Geschichte. All die vergangenen
> Auseinandersetzungen
> der Duodezstaaten erschienen mir dann l??cherlich und vielfach
> unbegreiflich.

Is ja klaar.  Dat vinger-wysen is dummerhaftig.  Wichtig is nu de toukumst,
dat so 'n kraam ny nich wedder maloyrt, un daar wegen moet wy by 't slapen
j??mmers eyn oog' apen holden. Un mit "wy" meyn ik dey heyle minschheyt.
Duytschland het ja maal by 't wed-r??nnen _?  la macabre_ d'n eyrsten prys
wunnen, man deyl-namen hebd dey meyrsten, un in "oever-sey" hebt sey de
inbarenen minschen mit veel unrecht an-vaten.  Mit steynen schul keyn eyn in
't glashuus smyten.

> Gestatte mir jedoch bereits hier die Frage, wie lange Du, als sprachlich
> und
> sozial integrierter Akademiker, auf Deine Einb??rgerung hast warten m??ssen?

The minimum time between immigration and naturalization in the US (in
ordinary cases) is five years, in Australia three years.  In Australia I did
wait and acted right away (because I was totally in love with the country,
still am), while in the US I let 22 years go by, waiting for my own
readiness.

> Ich beziehe mich dabei auf Deine Worte:
> > When I visit Europe and share such observations and views, people tend
> > to
> > react with attitudes like "it's really more complex than you know" and
> > "it's
> > easy for you to judge, being used to living in melting pots."  The
> > underlying tenor tends to be that places like the Americas and Australia
> > have *chosen* diversity, that it is self-imposed,...
>
> Kein Pole, kein Niederl??nder, kein Finne, kein Ungar, kein Neapolitaner
> oder
> Portugiese (alle diese Nationen leben hier, in unserem kleinen Dorf von
> gerade mal ca. 1.000 Einwohnern, weitab von jeder City, friedlich,
> freundlich in toller Nachbarschaft zusammen) wird je wirklich ein Problem
> haben, sich in Deutschland wohl zu f??hlen. In Deutschland f??hlt sich nur
> DER
> unwohl, der deutsch (-europ??ische) Sitten, Freiz??gigkeit, offene, liberale
> Lebensart, vielleicht Religionsaus??bung (oder eben keine; weltweit
> existiert
> wohl nirgendwo eine so starke Areligiosit??t wie hier) ablehnt, gar
> bek??mpft.

Of course!  And anyone opposed to the laws of the land.

> > and we see it in Germany's persistence in labeling and
> > treating generations of German-born Turks and others as "foreigners,"
> Wenn klein-asiatischen Einwanderern, besonders deren Frauen und M??dchen,
> noch in der dritten Generation wider ihren Willen von Seiten ihrer Familie
> (!!) verwehrt wird, die deutsche Sprache zu erlernen, geht es gewiss schon
> lange nicht mehr um die staatsabh??ngige Toleranz oder Int??leranz ihrer
> Sprache und Eigenheiten.

The question you need to ask about Islamic residents of Germany is "Are they
breaking any laws?"  In the case of those that do, incarcerate or extradite
them!  If the answer is "No," then what right is it of yours, of mine or of
anyone else's to judge them, their beliefs, their dress, their language use,
their family dynamics or anything else? By judging them beyond the legal
sphere, you are in fact illustrating what I mean by "ethno-nationalistic
cultural and linguistic dictates," crassly exemplified by France's recent
outlawing of Islamic dress in state schools (with outlawing of Jewish
yarmulkes and Christian crosses larger than so and so many centimeters being
a mere afterthought for legal reasons and placating of international
criticism).  I live in the part of Seattle with the highest Islamic
concentration (15 minutes' walk away from a mosque).  I see scores of veiled
women running around all the time.  And who cares?

> Wer nach "Amerika" (oder Australien, oder Argentinien, oder ...)
> auswandert,
> ist bereit zu Integration und Ver??nderung.
> Er/sie wei??: Du musst zupacken, Dir die Gewohnheiten, Br??uche, Strukturen
> aneignen, willst Du Fu?? fassen- die Systeme dieser Auswanderungs-L??nder
> verlangen es von Dir!

They are not "adapting" the way you are telling us people do in "traditional
immigration countries," neither are many other people of various background.
And that's just fine with most Americans these days.  Things have changed:
"being American" does not depend on your dress or religion.  In fact, by
being "different" you exemplify the freedom America is priding itself in
pursuing.  At least in this day and age this is not determined by
ethno-cultural dominance and dictates, by going to the same churches, eating
at the same diners and baking the same type of apple pie.

After 9/11, a guy drove his truck into our local mosque.  For weeks
afterwards, we, the neighbors of all sorts of backgrounds, took turns in
guarding the mosque day and night, and a sea of flowers gathered around it.
We see men and women in Islamic attire go and come from our mosque everyday.
On Saturday, people in Sabbath attire walk to and from our synagogues, some
of them conservative orthodox and dressed accordingly, for generations.
When I visit Chinatown (at least once a week) it's almost like being back in
China, and I hear very little English spoken, and sometimes I stop by a Zen
hall for meditation.  No, Jonny, this adaptation thing isn't as it used to
be, and yet, these people are American, Canadian, Australian or whatever.

> Anders hier: europ??ische Sozialgesetze sind intern, national, bestenfalls
> inner-europ??isch konzipiert, nicht an diese gerade jetzt, in unserer Zeit
> geschehenden V??lkerwanderungen der Neuzeit angepasst.

Indeed.  They are ethnically based, ethno-nationalist, where one ethnic
group wants to dictate the way of life, beliefs and language of both
newcomers and indigenous minorities.

Jonny, it is simply a pipedream and a cop-out to say that European countries
are not immigration countries.  People immigrate to them every single day,
not only "guest workers" and "asylum seekers" but also other types, not only
from Third World countries either.  I know several Americans, Canadians,
Australians and South Africans who have immigrated to Germany, for instance,
not to mention scores of folks from other European countries.  (Why, many of
our own Lowlanders are living proof.)  The "repatriation" of "Russia
Germans" has been a form of immigration also, as is the influx of hi-tech
specialists from all over the world.  Turks and others were *asked* to
immigrate as temporary workers, beginning with the 1960s.  So they stayed,
in part because they intermarried, managed to become naturalized, establish
businesses, etc.  There are now Germany-specific Turkish and Kurdish
dialects.  Those people are not going to go away, nor do their children want
to be anywhere else.  Just wake up and smell the coffee and admit that it's
OK to be Turkish German, African German, Islamic German and the like!
Germany and other European countries aren't that difference from the "New"
World, not in this day and age.

The world is changing fast.  Citizenships and borders are becoming less and
less important.  Today's pools of emigrants may become tomorrow's favorite
immigration destinations.  Aside from its controversy, "outsourcing," is now
a fact.  More and more Americans, both job seekers and retirees, are moving
to Mexico, and many are now acquiring Mexican citizenship.  More and more
"Westerners" are moving to India to benefit from the current outsourcing
boom, in part because they are needed to train Indians to do business with
the West, and many are starting their own businesses there.  I know several
people (including two Germans) that have answered the call, and some of them
look like they will stay there, having married Indians and raising children
there and being quite happy.

> Zur??ck zur Sprache dieser, ach so geschundenen Minderheiten in
> Deutschland:

Oh, come on!  No one said anything of the sort.

I think we all agree that we live in an age of accelerating globalization.
As far as I am concerned, the challenge is to take advantage of it (and in a
way we are doing it on this list) while at the same time creating an
atmosphere in which languages and cultures can not only survive but in fact
thrive, irrespective of their "sizes" and locations, irrespective of whether
they are indigenous or imported.  In my opinion, the basic requirements are
respect and compassion, appreciation of diversity, and an end to
territorialism and ethnocentrism.

Noug preysterd!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:24:02 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:24:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (01) [LS]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.092402.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]


Ik wull all Duennerdagh op de fraagh oever dat "knief" antern, boen blot bit
voendaaghs no ni darto kaamen. Een "knief" bruk wi no wul in Rendsborg man
is dat een groot 'knief", darmet kans een brot snieden un annere grote
stuecken, een "mess" is luetter un wi bruk dat alleen bi't eten, geis op
reisen denn nuemms gern een knief met denn darmet kans alens tweisnieden, in
restaurant kreegs een mess, dar woell man jaa een beten voerneem ween. Min
moder haett mi dat no soelvens so bibroech, een mess bruks bi't eten, een
knief bruks to'n brot snieden. Vun dar meen ik meist dat "knief" een ol
sassisch word is wat ok de Angelsassen metnaam heb no Engeland, mess is ers
in't 19ste jaahunnert naa Slesvig-Holsten kaamen met "voerneemere
etens-manieren", as man dat denn so sehen woell. Froeher op lannen harrn se
blot een lepel un knief to'n eten, voer "boenen un beeren", speck snieden
oder fleederbeersupp bruks keen "Gabel und Messer".

Groeten

Helge

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners,

uns nieget LS-Woord vandoog:

*britzen* - E: to flit, to run/drive fast; G: flitzen, schnell
laufen/fahren.

Waard noch veel bruukt in uns LS ("Hei britz' lous mit siin neu' Meschin." -
"He rushed away with his new bike.").

Is dat woll verwandt an E: 'breeze', G: 'Brise'?

Kennt Ji annern Lowlanners dat ook?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Jonny,

I neem an, dat wourd is verwandt mit "birsen" (metathesis).

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:26:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:26:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.092611.0700.>

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From: jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com>
Subject: Names

>From: Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
>
>I gather that when Israel was founded, and parents wanted to give the first
>generation kids Hebrew but non-biblical names, there was a fashion for
>"Bear", "Lion" etc for boys, and flowers for girls.  Interesting that
>English-speakers still use flowers for girls......
>
Gems for girls are or were at any rate popular.  My mother has counsins,
all sisters incidentally, who were named Ruby, Opal, and Pearl.
Jim Krause

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:27:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:27:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Publications" 2005.04.11 (03) [E]
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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tribute, 2005.04.10


From: Arthur A. Jones

Lieve Laaglanners,

Just to show y'all that I actually do something besides heave linguistic
water balloons at Lowlanders, we done wrote one o' these here paper thangs.

Our paper comparing US with EU methods in the "war on terror" has been
published online by the German company Jurawelt.

Here's the link:

www.jurawelt.com/aufsaetze/international/10188

We have a book in preparation that expands on the theme. Maybe we will write
it in Gothic and Low Saxon to avoid FBI/CIA scrutiny!

Met friandelyke groeten,

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:47:28 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:47:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.11 (04) [E]
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2005.04.10 (08) [E]


Ron wrote about the wonderful diversity and acceptance encountered in the
USA...
...and is forgetting that he lives in Seattle, one of the most liberal and
open cities in the country.

I lived on the U.S. West Coast myself for 8 years, including several years
in Portland, Oregon, which is very open and welcoming, and also a year in
Corvallis, Oregon, one of my favourite places in the world.

But then, I also lived on a rural farm for a long time... and I can tell
you that, outside of the big cities, and not only there, things are much
different. I felt that everybody expected I couldn't wait to become
American, shave my legs and whatnot, join a Baptist church and "worship"
every Sunday, listen to Garth Brooks, disfigure myself with nips and tucks
and heavy make-up, raise the pitch of my voice by an octave, coo over
"cute sweaters", and watch all their mind-numbing TV shows. The same is
actually
true for my urban neighbourhood. Ron, you are a) moving in university
circles, and seem to be living in an ivory tower - things tend look a
whole lot better from way up high, and b) a man, which makes a world of a
difference even if you do not perceive it. "Peer" pressure (as if I ever
considered American suburban housewives my peers) is a lot heavier on
those of us who are perceived as "female" by the world. Men are rather
expected
to distinguish themselves, be different in some way or other. Women are
expected to be lookers first and foremost, keep a spotless household next,
and then maybe express themselves through their cooking or the kind of
figurines they collect for their curio cabinet. And these expectations -
imposed by women on other women, mind you - I have found much worse in the
USA than anywhere else in the world. And yes, of course I know there are
exceptions. I was always ready to burst into tears of gratitude whenever I
met one. Usually, though, they were foreigners, too.

It was even worse for my children in school; being taught the "American
way" from childhood on comes close to a brainwashing, and my daughters were
ostracized because they resisted and remained actual individuals who chose
brain over looks, and danced to their own tune. Being German/Dutch made it
worse, of course, because it made them even more "different". Luckily,
they did acquire a few close friends over the years, but on the whole, being
different in any way (other than the accepted ways of being different,
which may include being Latino, black, or perhaps even gay, just as long as
you're athletic - at any rate, belonging to a closely defined group) was an
unforgivable crime.

That said, I, too, never felt particularly German while in exile (I had to
stay there for five more years than I had planned before they let me take
my "American" daughter out of the country - talk about a totalitarian
system), but very, very European instead. Can't wait until there is such a
thing as
an official European citizenship.

Sorry, just had to get this off my chest. Ron, I'm glad for you that you
could keep your Australian citizenship as well.

Gabriele Kahn


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

You're right, Gabriele, in pointing out that I neglected to make abundantly
clear that there is at least as much local variety in the United States and
Canada as there is in Europe. The fact remains, though, that there is a
difference between local cultures and the law of the land, which was my
point, also between state and federal law, that any law violating the basic
freedoms and the "pursuit of happiness" will have a hard time standing up
supreme court scrutiny, and this includes those pertaining to religion,
dress and language.

As for the "ivory tower" thing, I'm glad you said "seem," because you have
no way of knowing about my movements and social life when I'm off work and
off list.  In actual fact, being intensely interested in people I make it my
mission to move around a good variety of circles, and, yes, I have come
across all sorts, in and out of town.  Seeing the big picture requires
seeing the details first.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:55:49 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:55:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language status" 2005.04.11 (05) [D]
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From: Sebastian Fuchs <S.Fuchs at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language status" 2005.04.10 (02) [D/E]

Ook in regionale kranten in NRW was vanmorgen dit bericht te
lezen. Het vermelde lerarentekort is echter geen tekort aan
mensen die docent Nederlands willen worden, het is veeleer een
tekort aan banen en formatieplaatsen. Scholen hebben vaak niet
voldoende formatieplaatsen om op te vraag naar Nederlands in het
vakkenpakket te reageren.

Trouwens, het is me ook niet duidelijk, waar het cijfer 400
vandaan komt. Dit cijfer werd al jaren geleden bereikt.
Waarschijnlijk zijn dit de cijfers van een instituut, maar in
NRW zijn er drie, waarvan twee leraren Nederlands opleiden: het
Institut fr Niederlndische Philologie aan de universiteit te
Keulen en het Institut fr Niederlndische Philologie aan de
universiteit van Mnster. Allebei hebben al sinds een paar jaar
samen veel meer dan 500 geregistreerde studenten voor zover ik
weet.

Sebastian Fuchs

>  106     Teletekst za 09 apr
>
>  Nederlands populairder in Duitsland
>
>  M?NSTER In de Duitse deelstaat Noord-
>  Rijnland-Westfalen kiezen steeds meer
>  studenten voor het vak Nederlands.Op de
>  middelbare scholen volgen zo'n 16.000
>  leerlingen Nederlandse les.
>
>  In het hoger onderwijs is het aantal
>  studenten Nederlands de afgelopen vijf
>  jaar verdubbeld,tot 400.Er is dan ook
>  een tekort aan leraren.
>
>  Omgekeerd is er minder belangstelling:
>  het aantal Nederlandse studenten Duits
>  is twee tot drie keer zo laag als het
>  aantal Duitse studenten Nederlands aan
>  de universiteit van M?nster alleen al.
>  Volgens deskundigen vinden de meeste
>  Nederlanders Duits te moeilijk.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 16:59:05 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:59:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (06) [E]
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From: jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com>
Subject: Language Politics

>From: Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
>
>I believe English will become an "Esperanto for everyone"; it is already
>losing its role as "Language of the English", who are minority speakers of
>the language anyway.  It will then fall on us in England to strengthen and
>codify our own dialects, rather think of them as "slang", as is commonly
>believed.
>
I sometimes wonder if English will go the way of Latin: that is, after a
period of development will divide into several related but significantly
different languages, just as Latin spawned French, Spanish, Protugese,
Rumanian, Catalan, and others.
Jim Krause

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.10 (09) [E/LS/German]

Mark Williamson wrote: "The fact of the matter is, there is a sort of
unwritten federal law stating that all business of the government is to be
conducted in English and only English, with the exception of certain popular
interactions..."

I work for the Texas Workforce Commission which is an agency of the State of
Texas.  I work in the department that administers Unemployment Insurance in
the state.  All, and I mean all, of our services are available in Spanish as
well as in English.  We go to great pains to have all posters, mailings, and
announcements translated into Spanish.  If someone calls our Tele-Centers,
the first thing they must do is select English or Spanish.  We have a staff
of about 700 people in 6 Tele-Centers across the state.  I would estimate
that about 50% of them are bi-lingual.  In fact, that's one of the preferred
skills when we interview applicants to work here.

I myself have written training material for our Spanish speaking staff to
help them use the unique words that our bureaucratic jargon includes.

In Texas all voting is bi-lingual, voter registration forms are bi-lingual.

One year ago we had our info booklet which is 29 pages translated into
Vietnamese, because we have such a large population of Vietnamese speakers.

Now, we are a state agency and not the federal government.  However, all of
our funding is from the U.S. Department of Labor, and they make no demands
on us about the language we use or don't use.

Before I entered my present position, I worked as a claimstaker (that's one
of our jargon words) in one of the Tele-Centers.  At the time, I took about
50-75% of my calls in Spanish.  On Mondays especially, I would often not
take an English call until after I had returned from my lunch break.

My experience sure contradicts any language policy in the United States.

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 11 18:43:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:43:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.114342.0700.>

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From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]

As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie", searching
for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am not
going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

In Germanic we find demonstrative locatives in a right-adjoined positin
inside DPs (NPs), provided the DP starts with an attributive demonstrative
pronoun: Dutch examples are: "die man daar",  "die daar', "deze jongen
hier",  "deze hier", etc.

On the basis of "die man daar" and "die daar" we can predict "die-daar" and
maybe "die-hier" as possible attributive demonstratives. To the best of my
knowledge such demonstratives are not attested in Dutch, Frisian, or Dutch
or Frisian dialects. But they do exist in other varieties of Germanic:
Swedish "denh?r" and "dend?r" (sapologies if these are misspelled) and Edith
Raidt in her German book on Afrikaans mentions a southern German dialect
(Swabian I think) where "der da Stuhl" 'that there chair = that chair' is
grammatical.

"Hierdie" and "daardie" clearly are de novo creations and follow the rhe
rule for compounds (specification before head noun). They probably were
introduced into Afrikaans by L2 speakers who were used to a strong
resemblance of demonstrative pronouns and demonstrative adverbs (as for
instance in Malay: "rumah ini" 'house this' (in Bazaar Malay also "ini
rumah") and "di sini" 'here'. Similarly for Khoekhoe: "he" 'this, these' and
"heba" 'here'.).

Note that expanding "die" into "daardie" is hardly necessary (cf. German
"der Mann" 'the/that man'' --- depending upon the intonation), while "deze"
must have been a functionally acceptable form in Cape Dutch, because it is
clearly different from "die". What is more "deze" did not die until late in
the 19th century. In early Afrikaans we still find "dese' or "deuse".
Leftovers can be found in "duskant" 'this side of' and "vandeesweek" 'this
week'. The conclusion seems to be inevitable that an acrolectal "Germanic"
feature has been pushed out by a basilectal "Creole" feature.

Finally a remark on "Zealandic" I'd wish that subscribers to Lowlands
finally stop reviving this dead horse. It is absolutely clear that
Afrtikaans is "Hollandic" in so far as Dutch dialect features are concerned.
This applies both to sounds and to words: Zealandic is a southern dialect
and shares many words with Flemish dialects. [Where for instance is "kachel"
'foal' in Afrikaans?]  Furthermore, besides "ons" no other Zealandic pronoun
can be found in (the history of) Afrikaans. That is to say typical Zealandic
pronouns like "julder", "zulder", "wulder" and "joe'" [2PL, 3PL, 1PL and 2SG
resp.] do not show up in Afrikaans Similarly for typical phonological
properties of Zealandic: the strongly weakend [h] of Z does not show up in
Afrikaans. Z   does not dipthongize {i:] and [y] and so only has <ei> and
<ui-2>. Afrikaans, being Hollandic, is a diphthongizing variety. Etc. etc.

It is suprising that the Zealandic origins hypothesis, which experts --
whatever their ideas about the origins of Afrikaans -- have rejected long
ago still keeps popping up -- just like "Malayo-Portuguese", which is a
definite misnomer for "(Bazaar) Malay and Asian Creole Portuguese".

Hans den Besten

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for sharing your interesting and enlightening take on this, and
welcome to the speakers' corner!

The said structure does indeed occur in other Lowlands language varieties,
even within the "Low German" branch, albeit in reverse order.

In many Low Saxon varieties you can say _dey daar man_ or _de darige man_,
_dat hyr bouk_, etc.

As for the Zeelandic theory, I ask that folks who wish to respond to it do
so under "language varieties."

On a personal note, I don't see why we ought to consider only "either ... or
..." instead of a multi-origin possibility.  As most of us know, Dutch was
the official language at the Cape for a long, long time, and its influence
would have been continuous as a written and "high" language.  So the
existence of a very substantial Hollandic component can hardly be denied.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 03:10:46 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:10:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.201046.0700.>

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (02) [E]

> From: jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> >From: Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
> >
> >I gather that when Israel was founded, and parents wanted to give the
> first
> >generation kids Hebrew but non-biblical names, there was a fashion for
> >"Bear", "Lion" etc for boys, and flowers for girls.  Interesting that
> >English-speakers still use flowers for girls......
> >
> Gems for girls are or were at any rate popular.  My mother has counsins,
> all sisters incidentally, who were named Ruby, Opal, and Pearl.
> Jim Krause

One gem name is exclusively male: Jasper.

English still uses boys' names from "Lion", such as Leo, Leon, and Leonard.
There is also CNN's Wolf Blitzer, and "Tiger" is a common nickname for boys,
usually used by their fathers ("Go get 'em, Tiger!").

Kevin Caldwell

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 03:13:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:13:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.201321.0700.>

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From: kt4nn at juno.com <kt4nn at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

   Has English gone too far?  Why does that happen?
One could refer to the chronicles and get a general idea.
The point is that it is utilized with obscurities and may
well be a "killer".

Peter Sorensen.

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (06) [E]

Jim Krause wrote:
> I sometimes wonder if English will go the way of Latin: that is, after a
> period of development will divide into several related but significantly
> different languages, just as Latin spawned French, Spanish, Protugese,
> Rumanian, Catalan, and others.

Well, at first glance it would seem that English went quite the opposite
way, being compiled out of several different, identifiable languages,
instead of splitting up. Also, I think that the forming of such crass
regional or cultural differences would be almost impossible in the days of
globalisation and the Internet. But then, who knows where we stand two
thousand years from now...

But since you mentioned Latin: where did Latin actually come from? It can't
just have fallen out of the sky and then spread like a virus. Does anyone
know whether Latin is actually a true indigenous mediterranean language
(however one would define that), or did it at some point originate as some
kind of pidgin as well? I never really thought about this, forgive me if
this is an old hat for linguists.

My 11-year-old daughter recently participated in a school production of
Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream (her older sister was Oberon - not
enough boys!). So today, when she heard me gripe about an awful translation
of an ice hockey simulation game that I had to review, she said: "Don't
worry about it - you know, Puck shall restore amends." Ouch!

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (06) [E]

On 12/04/2005, at 2:59 AM,  jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com> wrote:

> I sometimes wonder if English will go the way of Latin: that is, after
> a
> period of development will divide into several related but
> significantly
> different languages,

The first signs of this evolvement are already there. American English
is already so close yet so far apart from the parent stream which
itself is also deteriorating at its lower levels. eg Awful stuff like
'Fab', 'Telly', and myriad other distortions. Even in Australia I
shudder when a couple of teenage girls start going 'Yeah but, no not.
Oh Yeah, Yeah, No.' For those of you who have watched BBC's wonderful
'Little Britain' Vickie Pollard is a classic case and her speech is for
real.
English is already adapted to languages so different the uninitiated
may not even recognise it as such.
West Africa's glorious varieties of  pidgin are good examples. eg 'Make
you go come get dis ting Atinga.' . 'Eh ! Dis monkey e go bite me
proprah !'.'As for me I go likeum toooooooo much.'.
Varieties of pidgin in the South Pacific are incomprehensible to
newcomers and that developed in Papua New Guinea has become an official
language.
You go read dis ting an you  see I go tok true. :-)
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 03:15:37 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:15:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.11.APR.2005.201537.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (01) [LS]

'n Obend, Helge (Tietz),

Du hesst schreeven:

> Een "knief" bruk wi no wul in Rendsborg man
> is dat een groot 'knief", darmet kans een brot snieden un annere grote
> stuecken, een "mess" is luetter un wi bruk dat alleen bi't eten

Freut mi d?chdich, watt ji dat "Knief" vandoog j?st sou hevvt. Ick kenn 't
man noch eben ut miin Kinnertieden un w??r all bang, wat dit Woord ne meer
tou dennen "aktiven" Bruuk van uns Sprook h??r'n deeh.

Ick gl??v, wi hevvt dat ook sou bruukt: 'n "Knief" w??r 'n heel grout' Metz,
un 'n "Metz" w??r meerstentieds man j?st 'n (l?tt) Metz.

> Froeher op lannen harrn
> se
> blot een lepel un knief to'n eten

Bi uns, g?ntsieds vonne Elv, harren 's alleen L?pels- de Metzen w??rn tou
gefaarli :-)!

Allerbest Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
> searching
> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
> not
> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?

Darrin.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 15:52:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:52:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.12.APR.2005.085229.0700.>

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From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
> searching
> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
> not
> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?

Darrin.

I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder") has got nothing to do with the
"hierdie/daardie" issue. "Yonder/ginder" is a derivation of the
demonstrative stem which still can be found in German: "jen-" (jener, jene,
jenes). The [d] seems to be original [if I may believe the etymological
dictionaries]. If not it could be epenthetic. Either hypothesis is better
than the asssumption that the d in "yonder/ginder" derives from
"there/daar". We don't say "yonther" after all.

Hans den Besten

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hans (above):

> I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder")

Low Saxon has _g?nt_ ~ _gunt_ (> _g?ntsyds_ ~ _guntsyds_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

Thanks Hans! I'm glad finally someone else who knows about this too reacts
to that supposedly Zeelandic origins of Afrikaans! Because that beautiful
language originates without doubt from South Holland Dutch, to be more
precise from the Dordrecht area where Van Riebeeck himself - the founder of
the Cape of Good Hope Dutch colony - was from. In Kloeke's Herkomst en
groei van het Afrikaans this Southern South Hollandic origins were proven
already long ago. On the other hand, Southern South Holland is not very far
from Zeeland and the South Holland islands - where Zeelandic is spoken as
well, so certain similarities in vocabulary, accent and expressions can be
expected. What's more: the fact that people from Zeeland - such as my
mother - recognise there own dialect in Afrikaans means something too, I
think. It would be interesting to know what native Afrikaanders would think
about this often claimed Zeelandic or other origins of their language, if
they would hear/read different Dutch dialects...

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]
>
>Finally a remark on "Zealandic" I'd wish that subscribers to Lowlands
>finally stop reviving this dead horse. It is absolutely clear that
>Afrtikaans is "Hollandic" in so far as Dutch dialect features are
concerned.
>This applies both to sounds and to words: Zealandic is a southern dialect
>and shares many words with Flemish dialects. [Where for instance
is "kachel"
>'foal' in Afrikaans?]  Furthermore, besides "ons" no other Zealandic
pronoun
>can be found in (the history of) Afrikaans. That is to say typical
Zealandic
>pronouns like "julder", "zulder", "wulder" and "joe'" [2PL, 3PL, 1PL and
2SG
>resp.] do not show up in Afrikaans Similarly for typical phonological
>properties of Zealandic: the strongly weakend [h] of Z does not show up in
>Afrikaans. Z   does not dipthongize {i:] and [y] and so only has <ei> and
><ui-2>. Afrikaans, being Hollandic, is a diphthongizing variety. Etc. etc.
>
>It is suprising that the Zealandic origins hypothesis, which experts --
>whatever their ideas about the origins of Afrikaans -- have rejected long
>ago still keeps popping up -- just like "Malayo-Portuguese", which is a
>definite misnomer for "(Bazaar) Malay and Asian Creole Portuguese".
>
>Hans den Besten
>
>R F Hahn:
>As for the Zeelandic theory, I ask that folks who wish to respond to it do
>so under "language varieties."
>
>On a personal note, I don't see why we ought to consider only "either ...
or
>..." instead of a multi-origin possibility.  As most of us know, Dutch was
>the official language at the Cape for a long, long time, and its influence
>would have been continuous as a written and "high" language.  So the
>existence of a very substantial Hollandic component can hardly be denied.

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

J.B. Besten wrote:
> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
searching
> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
not
> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

But there are equivalent strucutres in German dialects - Suebian, for
instance, spoken in Baden-W?rttemberg in the Southwest, uses "dahanna" (as
in "da hinten", over there). This can be modified into "da dahanna" and "do
dahanna" ("this one here" vs. "that one there").

I lived in Suebia for almost two years and was fascinated by those two
little words. Once, for instance, I was in line at the meat and sausage
counter in the supermarket. The lady in fromt of me said she wanted some of
the sausage "dahanna". The vendor asked: "Da dahanna oder do dahanna?"
Customer: "Do dahanna!" And then she gave her exactly the right sausage,
without any of them pointing or otherwise indicating at all (and this was in
Germany, so there were plenty of sausages to choose from).

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>What about "yonder"? <

OED:   yonder: over there : corresponds to Old Saxon  gendra ( adj)  West
Frisian ginder ( adj) = on this side    Middle Dutch  ghinder, gunder
(Dutch ginder)  Gothic jaindre.

yon = Old English  geon   correspondsa with variation of vowels to OFris
jen(a)   MLG  gene   MDu  ghens   OHG  jener   Goth   jains = that

There is a parallel series of forms without the initial consonant: OHG ener
 ON enn, inn  Oslav  onu  Sanskrit  ana = this one

It actually doesn't explain the -der  suffix

Heather

----------

From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology


From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]

As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie", searching
for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am not
going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

Hello Lowlanders,
I am not a linguist so this may be a silly observation but these 2 words
"hierdie and daardie" sound a lot like english hither and thither meaning
roughly here and there from OE hider
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 15:54:28 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:54:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.12.APR.2005.085428.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (08) [E]

Kevin Caldwell wrote:
> English still uses boys' names from "Lion", such as Leo, Leon, and
Leonard.
> There is also CNN's Wolf Blitzer, and "Tiger" is a common nickname for
boys,
> usually used by their fathers ("Go get 'em, Tiger!").

There probably isn't a connection between the German first name Gebhard and
"Gepard", the German word for cheetah?

Also, let's not forget the bears: Bernard, Bernhard, Bj?rn, Bernd, Berthold,
Bartold, etc., possibly also Barney etc.
And the eagles: Arndt, Arend, Arnold, etc.
Boars: Eberhard (although I think that might come from a different root)
Large global deer: Hieronymoose, Rasmoose, and the female Lower Saxon name
Elke

>duck<
Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 15:58:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:58:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.12.APR.2005.085842.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]


Dear Lowlanders

I have just returned from New Zealand and from my own observation the Maori
language seems to have disappeared  from the streets of New Zealand, even in
those areas where there are supposed to be most of the Maori speakers
(arounmd the East Cape of the North Island), I have not heard any of the
Maori families I encountered speaking Maori to each other. Although great
efforts are now undertaken to save the language such as a Maori TV channel
it seems to go the way like Irish, it has mere symbolic importance as e.g in
the haka but ceased to be the language even Maori communicate in any longer.
All school-children have to learn Maori for two years at school (including
the Pakehas, those of European descent) but often the teacher him/herself
cannot get a complete sentence together in Maori, the Maori-newsreaders
leave the impression that they are native English-speakers who attained a
reasonable knowledge of the language. But I might have it all wrong, I
wonder whether we have a native Maori speaker in our Lowlands-group who
could prove my impression wrong, I would be more than glad if I am. The
problem is, I have seen it all before, it is just like my native Low Saxon
has almost entirely disappeared from the streets of Slesvig-Holsten.

Groeten

Helge

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (06) [E]

I meant mostly on a federal level. As an Arizonan, I encounter
bilingual signs, forms, phonelines, websites, etc. on a daily basis,
and a great deal of these are from the state government or municipal
governments.

The degree of bilingualism is such that if somebody in the state
senate floated a bill written entirely in Spanish, well, it wouldn't
happen even though we have a few senators who seem like they would do
that.

In fact, in Flagstaff, the most important municipal documents are
translated into Navajo, which is very much a waste since most Navajos
can't read Navajo and most of those that can are too young to care
about such documents or have a high enough degree of fluency in
English to understand the English version.

On a state level, however, the government is less bilingual than at
the county or municipal level, and basically all dealings with the
federal goverment are conducted in English.

Mark

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]


Jim Krause wrote:
"I sometimes wonder if English will go the way of Latin: that is, after a
period of development will divide into several related but significantly
different languages, just as Latin spawned French, Spanish, Protugese,
Rumanian, Catalan, and others."

Tom McRae replied:
"The first signs of this evolvement are already there. American English is
already so close yet so far apart from the parent stream... pidgin in the
South Pacific are incomprehensible to
newcomers and that developed in Papua New Guinea has become an official
language."

English would have developed as Latin did if there was no print media or
electronic media. The evidence is there in Yola and Fingalian in Ireland,
which were unintelligible to English speakers by the eighteenth and
nineteenth century (and a good bit beforehand). Creoles are becoming less
lexically separate from English because of the global power of that
language, as any glance at the Tok Pisin page of the Australian Broadcasting
Corporation's Radio National website shows. It is a shame that they are
being brought back into the linguistic fold (so to speak), but apparently
inevitable. It would be pleasing if Jamaica, Guyana and the like followed
the Haitian example and adopted the local language as official, but it seems
unlikely despite nationalist efforts that it be so.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>But since you mentioned Latin: where did Latin actually come from? It
can't
just have fallen out of the sky and then spread like a virus. Does anyone
know whether Latin is actually a true indigenous mediterranean language
(however one would define that), or did it at some point originate as some
kind of pidgin as well? I never really thought about this, forgive me if
this is an old hat for linguists.<

Latin was/is a member of the Italo-Celtic languages , descended from
Indo-European. There are clear internal signs that the Celtic languages and
Latin grew out of a single branch of IE

re the possible growth of new languages from English
We ( Modern Foreign languager inspectors and Advisors in the UK ) were
advised some years ago by an ex-member who now is a European member of
Parliament that the English spoken on the corridors of Brussels was
developing into a language all of its own, with differences of nuance and
meaning that would perplex the normal English speaker.

I believe the same is true for Indian English - but that is only a cautious
comment, stemming from a couple of articles I have read.

History would indicate this is to be entirely expected...................
Look what happened to our largest colony (!?)

Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 12 20:08:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:08:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (04) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]

Heather wrote:  "Look what happened to our largest colony (!?)"
Which one is that?  The largest population, or the largest in area?

Additionally, I wonder if anyone can give us some examples of Brussels/EU
English that would perplex me?

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]


Mark Williamson wrote:
"In fact, in Flagstaff, the most important municipal documents are
translated into Navajo, which is very much a waste since most Navajos can't
read Navajo and most of those that can are too young to care about such
documents or have a high enough degree of fluency in English to understand
the English version."

Not caring about Navajo on the part of young persons is one thing. They can
choose the English versions of official documents if they prefer. But those
that have "a degree of fluency in English and can understand [that
language]" should not be expected to interact in English simply because of
they know it. That is linguistic hegemony.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: embryomystic at cogeco.ca <embryomystic at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]

Scr?obh Cr?ost?ir:

> English would have developed as Latin did if there was no
> print media or electronic media. The evidence is there in
> Yola and Fingalian in Ireland, which were unintelligible
> to English speakers by the eighteenth and nineteenth
> century (and a good bit beforehand).

Could you provide any links or anything with information about Yola and
Fingalian? You mentioned them once before, and I
googled for them, but I didn't manage to find anything. Sounds really
interesting. I do recall reading some mention, in
an old book about Irish dialects, of some English dialect spoken in
southeast Ireland (can't recall where, offhand) that
had diverged quite widely from the standard, and had taken on some
interesting characteristics of Irish, including the
diminutive -een. Could that be Yola or Fingalian?

heather rendall wrote:

> Latin was/is a member of the Italo-Celtic languages,
> descended from Indo-European. There are clear internal
> signs that the Celtic languages and Latin grew out of a
> single branch of IE

Are there? I've read in several places that this theory has been thoroughly
debunked.

le meas,

Isaac Davis/?osac Mac D?ibh?id

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 14:30:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:30:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.073009.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]


"Yonder", from OE geond, is related to German "jener", which I gather is
considered a bit old-fashioned in Germany these days.

Paul

----------

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

Wat hierdie en daardie betref, ek het iets in ``Wording en ontwikkeling
van Afrikaans" deur J. du P. Scholtz gekry wat dalk vir julle interessant
is.  Ek kon nie Hahn se oorspronklikke e-pos kry nie, ek hoop ek herhaal
nie wat hy daar gese^ het nie.  Ek haal aan:

Die teenstellende aanwysende voornaamwoorde hierdie en daardie is uit geen
Kaapse bron van voor 1850 opgeteken nie, wat egter nie beteken dat die
vorme eers in die 19de eeu in Afrikaans ontstaan het nie.  Die aanwysende
voornaamwoorde die' het hom net deur sterker aksent van die bepaalde
lidwoord die onderskei, en met die verdwyning van deze is die geleentheid
vergroot vir die ontwikkeling en verspreiding van nuwe teenstellende
aanwaysende voornaamwoorde.  Die neiging tot nadurlikheid en oormatige
aanwysing, wat 'n kenmerk van die vroee" Kaapse taalgebruik was, kon die
ontstaan van vorme soos hierdie en daardie in die hand werk.  Dit is
moontlik dat die aanloop tot die Afrikaanse formasies in die 17de-eeuse
Hollands moet gesoek word.  In die huidige Hollandse volkstaal is
konstruksies bekend wat na aan die Afrikaans staan (bv. "Hier die frome
is-ter dak en muur van de kerk"). en vergelykbare konstruksies kom ook al
in die 17de eeu voor (bv. "Hier de kopster, Neel slimmongs" - uit
Bredero).  Daar is trouens ook gewys op konstruksies uit 18de eeuse Duits
wat byna identiek met die Afrikaans is ("Dort der Holunderstrauch verbrigt
mich ihm" - uit Schiller).  Onafhanklike ontstaan van hierdie en daardie
deur verskuiwing in sinaktiese geleding van sinne soos "Sien jy daar die
man met die groen hoed?" is egter ook goed denkbaar.  Van vreemde
oorsprong, of selfs tipies Afrikaans, is die konstruksies in elk geval
nie, want hierdie en daardie is as (oormatig) aanduidende vorme ook in 'n
Brabantse dialek aangewys.

Beste,
Darrin Speegle

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]

No, <yonder> is of course not directly related to hierdie or daardie,
but to Dutch <ginder/daarginds> over there, <ginds> (adject) yonder,
Dutch LS <gunter> idem. Dutch has also relatives: degene <the one> = de +
gene, hetgeen <the one> (neutr) = het + geen.

But there are some words related to <hier>: Dutch <heden>, German Heute =
today (formal/archaic); <huidig> = present, today's. <her en der> here and
there. German: heurig = this year's.
Related to <daar>: dergelijk/diergelijk = similar, the like, or would those
be conjugated forms of articles <de> and <die>? And again <her en der>.

Ingmar

>From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>
>From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]
>
>> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
>> searching
>> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
>> not
>> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)
>
>Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
>almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
>but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
>least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?
>
>Darrin.
>
>I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder") has got nothing to do with the
>"hierdie/daardie" issue. "Yonder/ginder" is a derivation of the
>demonstrative stem which still can be found in German: "jen-" (jener, jene,
>jenes). The [d] seems to be original [if I may believe the etymological
>dictionaries]. If not it could be epenthetic. Either hypothesis is better
>than the asssumption that the d in "yonder/ginder" derives from
>"there/daar". We don't say "yonther" after all.
>
>Hans den Besten
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Hans (above):
>
>> I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder")
>
>Low Saxon has _g??nt_ ~ _gunt_ (> _g??ntsyds_ ~ _guntsyds_).
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
>From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>
>Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>>What about "yonder"? <
>
>OED:   yonder: over there : corresponds to Old Saxon  gendra ( adj)  West
>Frisian ginder ( adj) = on this side    Middle Dutch  ghinder, gunder
>(Dutch ginder)  Gothic jaindre.
>
>yon = Old English  geon   correspondsa with variation of vowels to OFris
>jen(a)   MLG  gene   MDu  ghens   OHG  jener   Goth   jains = that
>
>There is a parallel series of forms without the initial consonant: OHG ener
> ON enn, inn  Oslav  onu  Sanskrit  ana = this one
>
>It actually doesn't explain the -der  suffix
>
>Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 14:32:08 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:32:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.13 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.073208.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.12 (02) [E]

>Not to be forgotten "Arvid" = Old Norse <Eagle of the Wood>, as we called
or youngest son
Ingmar

>From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (08) [E]
>>And the eagles: Arndt, Arend, Arnold, etc.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 14:40:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:40:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.074042.0700.>

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From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]

I don't think you can really say language deteriorates at all. You
mention "Fab" and "Telly". Are these examples of deterioration? No.
Both are simply examples of linguistic clipping, a process that happens
in every known natural language. If you've ever used the words "phone",
"deli", "sub", "demo", "condo", or "porn", to name a few of the
hundreds in English, you're carrying on the same change that's seen in
"fab" and "telly". These two are merely newer, so they haven't received
universal acceptance yet.
It certainly can be odd to hear adolescents speak. But as odd as it
may seem, they would not be talking like that if they did not expect to
be understood. Indeed they are understood. Just not by you and me.  :)
As to the question of English splitting into various extremely
different dialects and eventually even languages: it's possible but
probably unlikely to happen very soon, because the English speaking
community still to a certain degree sees itself as a community, and
Britain is in contact with North America, which is in contact with
Australia, etc. Isolated communities of speakers of English, however,
do stand a very good chance of developing their own dialects and even,
faaaar down the road, languages. But as I say, given how interconnected
English speakers are now, it seems unlikely to me.

-Ian Pollock

> The first signs of this evolvement are already there. American English
> is already so close yet so far apart from the parent stream which
> itself is also deteriorating at its lower levels. eg Awful stuff like
> 'Fab', 'Telly', and myriad other distortions. Even in Australia I
> shudder when a couple of teenage girls start going 'Yeah but, no not.
> Oh Yeah, Yeah, No.' For those of you who have watched BBC's wonderful
> 'Little Britain' Vickie Pollard is a classic case and her speech is for
> real.

----------

From: jverhoeven <jverhoeven at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]

from Joyce Verhoeven jverhoeve at xtra.co.nz
Helge wrote
> I have just returned from New Zealand and from my own observation the
> Maori
> language seems to have disappeared  from the streets of New Zealand, even
> in
> those areas where there are supposed to be most of the Maori speakers
> (arounmd the East Cape of the North Island), I have not heard any of the
> Maori families I encountered speaking Maori to each other. Although great
> efforts are now undertaken to save the language such as a Maori TV channel
> it seems to go the way like Irish, it has mere symbolic importance as e.g
> in
> the haka but ceased to be the language even Maori communicate in any
> longer.
> All school-children have to learn Maori for two years at school (including
> the Pakehas, those of European descent) but often the teacher him/herself
> cannot get a complete sentence together in Maori, the Maori-newsreaders
> leave the impression that they are native English-speakers who attained a
> reasonable knowledge of the language. But I might have it all wrong, I
> wonder whether we have a native Maori speaker in our Lowlands-group who
> could prove my impression wrong, I would be more than glad if I am. The
> problem is, I have seen it all before, it is just like my native Low Saxon
> has almost entirely disappeared from the streets of Slesvig-Holsten.

> Helge
> I found your comments interesting - but I may have a different point  of
> view Maori is very much a re-emerging language - when I was growing up
> here in the 1960's
there was very little Maori spoken or learnt. Maori children  were actively
discouraged
from speaking Maori by their parents for a large part of the 1900's, (NZ
society  seemed to
like people to fit in My immigrant parents in the 1960's were discouraged by
various health
 and education professionals(?) to speak Dutch to their children - as they
felt it would disadvantage
 us in learning  English - resulting in my younger siblings not being able
to speak and  understanding
 very little  Dutch as over the years our house become predominantly English
speaking.)  But I digress
It is  probably only over the last 20 or so years that the use of Maori  is
again being encouraged -
with total immersion pre schools and schools been go set up and also many
bilingual schools -
as children who have been exposed  to this are growing up there is more
Maori being spoken,
but I guess for the majority English will always be the first language as
that is the predominant
spoken/legal  language and it is still only a small proportion of children
who go through the specialised schools,
and in the rest of the schools Maori is still very much a token effort.
Maori TV is very new having just been in existence for 1 year but is gaining
in  popularity and efforts
are constantly made  to ensure it is not just a token effort.  My experience
is that the use of Maori is now
increasing (growing up I can not recall anyone speaking Maori - even my
Maori friends or their parents.
I now do have friends who speak Maori to their children  and good or bad
more Maori words
are becoming part of our everyday language - mixed in with the English.
regards
Joyce

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (04) [E]


Mark Brooks wrote:
"Additionally, I wonder if anyone can give us some examples of Brussels/EU
English that would perplex me?"

Mark, I think Brussels / EU English is considered perplexing because it is
notoriously bureaucratic and convoluted, rather than a separate, new
variety. There may be some influence from substrates (particularly French, I
would imagine), but that would only apply to informal internal e-mails and
memos, not to official documents.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 15:10:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:10:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.13 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.081054.0700.>

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (04) [E]

Isaac Davis wrote:

"Could you provide any links or anything with information about Yola and
Fingalian? You mentioned them once before, and I
googled for them, but I didn't manage to find anything. Sounds really
interesting. I do recall reading some mention, in
an old book about Irish dialects, of some English dialect spoken in
southeast Ireland (can't recall where, offhand) that
had diverged quite widely from the standard, and had taken on some
interesting characteristics of Irish, including the
diminutive -een. Could that be Yola or Fingalian?"

As far as I know, Yola, spoken in the baronies of Forth and Bargy in
Wexford, and Fingalian, spoken in Fingal in north Dublin, were unique
because they were a fossil form of Middle English with dialect elements
found in south-western England.  The name "Yola" is from "A Yola Zong" ('An
Old Song'), one of the few attested remnants of the speech variety.  The
voicing of the initial [s] is similar to that found in the English county of
Somerset ("Zomerzet" in the local dialect); it's also present in pastiche
form in part of 'King Lear', and there's also an Irvine Welsh story about a
Somerset necrophile, though that won't be everyone's cup of tea.  It is
difficult to understand much at all on the page (more difficult than actual
Middle English), although it might be easier with another orthography.  I
think that "I am" was something like "'Ch am".  I seem to remember that the
past participle retained the older English y-prefix and dispensed with the
flexion at the end, which might make it similar to Afrkaans in that respect.

The use of diminutive -een would be common to many Irish dialects of English
and unremarkable in this case.

--
Best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (04) [E]


Scriobh Iosac Mac D?ibh?id:
"Could you provide any links or anything with information about Yola and
Fingalian? You mentioned them once before, and I googled for them, but I
didn't manage to find anything. Sounds really interesting. I do recall
reading some mention, in an old book about Irish dialects, of some English
dialect spoken in southeast Ireland (can't recall where, offhand) that had
diverged quite widely from the standard, and had taken on some interesting
characteristics of Irish, including the diminutive -een. Could that be Yola
or Fingalian?"

That's them. There should be a handful of fairly detailed messages in the
Lowlands-L archive relating to both varieties, as well as a couple of
pitiful references from myself and the odd sample text. What follows is
entirely from memory, and thus of dubious accuracy.

Yola (Yola for 'old') is better documented, and was spoken in the parishes
of Forth and Bargy in extreme south eastern Wexford until the late
nineteenth century. I understand lexical traces of it still survive in the
Hiberno-English of the area (i.e., _neape_ for 'turnip'). Isolation from the
surrounding Irish-speaking districts seems to have been culturally important
to Yola speakers, although as you point out, they nevertheless imported a
number of lexical items from Irish, including the -in dimunitive which was
liberally put to use, and words like _capall_ 'horse', apparently for a
particular kind of horse. Yola seems to have been strongly influenced by if
not derived from Gower and Westcountry English, evident in its use of [v]
and [z] for standard [f] and [s] - i.e._vaadher_ 'father', _zummer_
'summer'. I believe Yola also used a Devonian sort of pronoun base, with
_cham_ [xam] , earlier < ich am being used for 'I am'.

Fingalian was always derided, and so less well recorded. Its users were said
to be unable to speak either Irish or English, but only the worst of the
latter. While Fingalian seems to have had a long life span in the Pale, it
appears to have been submerged by Hiberno-English in the nineteenth century
expansion of Dublin and none of it remains today, even lexically.

I hope this helps.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: resources

I notice that the ``Universal Survey of Languages" link listed on the
lowlands-l page is broken.  Does anyone know the status of this page?

This gives me an excuse to ask the following (as I am sure that the answer
would have been on that page): How analytic is Low Saxon in comparison to
Dutch and German?  Is it possible to provide me with some juicy examples?
For that matter, how does it compare to English?  (I think I know the
answer to the last one, but I don't want to assume.)

Thanks in anticipation,
Darrin Speegle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dag, Derrin, en dankie vir die interessante navraag hierbo.

I'm a tad too busy for a long explanation and examples (juicy or otherwise).
(Did I hear a sigh of relief there somewhere?)  However, I can say that, by
and large, Low Saxon is as alalytic as Standard Dutch and can be more so.
There's a great deal of dialectical variation, hence the disclaimer "by and
large."

The genders are still being distinguished, though not always
morphologically, as in the definite articles (e.g., _de(y) man_ 'the man',
_de(y) vrou_ 'the woman', _dat huus_ 'the house').

Depending on dialect and even idiolect, suffixes may be present of absent;
e.g.,

de Afrikaansch(e) man -> hey
de Afrikaansch(e) vrou -> sey
dat Afrikaansch(e) huus -> et ~ it ~ dat

'n Afrikaansch(en) man -> hey
'n(e) Afrikaansch(e) vrou -> sey
'n Afrikaansch(et) huus -> et ~ it ~ dat

de Afrikaansch(en) mans-luyd' -> sey
de Afrikaansch(en) vrou(e)ns-luyd' -> sey
de Afrikaansch(en) huys' -> sey

Afrikaansch(e) mans-luys' -> sey
Afrikaansch(e) vrou(e)ns-luys' -> sey
Afrikaansch(e) huys' -> sey

N.B.: Here <uu> stands for [u:], and [uy] stands for [y:] (i.e., Afrikaans
<oe> and <uu> respectively).  LS umlauts, though the pattern does not
totally match the German one. Furthermore, many LS dialects have
"superlength" or "drawl tone," i.e., an extra-long vowel or diphthong where
a final /-e/ has been elided between it and a preceding voiced consonant;
hence _huus_ [hu:s] 'house', vs. (_huyse_ ['hy:ze] >) _huys'_ [hy:.z]
'houses'.

You might like to visit my introductory site (badly in need of updating
though): http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/

Hopefully, others will have things to add.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 15:47:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:47:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.13 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.084723.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Anniversary

Dear Lowlanders,

As we are easying (?) into the middle of April (what? already?!) we're fast
approaching the official start of our 10th anniversary month (lasting till
about the middle of May, or until the last party guests have left).

Our online anniversary presentation will probably never be finished.  In
other words, it will remain a work in progress.  However, it will be
officially unveiled any time now.  So this is our last pre-unveiling call
for writing, translating and recording contributions.  Please send them to
me at <sassisch at yahoo.com>.

If you are new to our list, please find a repeat of an explanation/call
appended.  And an exciting bunch of you it is that joined us recently,
including Low Saxon (Low German) speakers from Kansas and Trinidad & Tobago,
a famous linguist of the Nordic and Dutch persuation, and a member of EBLUL
(European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages).  (Don't be afraid! No lurkers
are ever "outed" on this list. Unless you join the speakers' corner, your
identities are known only to me and the co-editors.)  Welcome to all new
Lowlanders!  Now that you are on board, you might want to consider joining
us in the anniversary project effort, for instance by writing a brief
introduction (and, preferably, adding a picture) and sending it to me for
posting.

Best regards, and stay posted!
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

***
Encore:


Before I get to normal List business, let me remind you of our upcoming 10th
anniversary (April/May 2005) and the anniversary project we are putting
together: a collection of translations of a Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
folktale in various Lowlands language varieties (*any* varieties) and other
languages, both reading and for listening. You will find the raw material
here: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html . But we will
present this elsewhere, jazzed up, and with sound. It's going to be really
terrific.  Some subscribers have already contributed to this. Thanks to all
of them. Contribution recognition awards will be handed out later.  More is
needed, folks! Besides translations and sound recordings, we need
subscribers' brief (1-8 paragraphs) introductions, preferably with pictures,
but contributions without pictures will be gladly received too. Just
introduce yourselves, say where (in general) you live and originally come
from, what sorts of interests you have, and what your experiences and/or
first impressions you have as relates to Lowlands-L. We want to show folks
out there the diversity of membership. We do not want to impress them with
great names and achievements, just show them that virtually anyone at any
level of knowledge and experience and from any part of the world is welcome
to join us and is likely to gain something from it. If you are new to the
List, by all means, introduce yourselves and tell us what you hope to get
out of it and what your experiences have been so far. You may do so in any
language you like, do not need to write in English or in another Lowlands
language. If you do it bilingually, that would be great.

If you want to contribute introductions or translations, please send them to
me (sassisch at yahoo.com), and I will pass them on to Mathieu van Woerkom, our
webmaster who is designing a very nice new site for the occasion. We are not
concerned about duplication. If there is already a translation in your
language, please send us yours anyway. No two people tell a story exactly
alike, nor do they have exactly the same pronunciation. The main thing is
that your write and speak in a *natural* way. If you want to contribute
sound recordings, please get in touch with Henry Pijffers
(henry.pijffers at saxnot.com) who will also be happy to give you technical
advice and instructions.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 16:12:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:12:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Publications" 2005.04.13 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.091207.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Publications" 2005.04.11 (03) [E]

Leeve Arthur,

this morning I did read Your link with great interest. Remarkable facts You
collected!

But there was another thing I was impressed by: Your language is very easy
to understand for people like me, with some 'rusty remains' of their
'School-English'. There are just a handfull of words I had to look after in
a dictionary; I could nearly read it as fast as German.

Just the opposite from 'common' German juristic publications.

Or did You write it for some special people- e.g. for a 'leading', pious
"Texas-Ranger" or a descendant of original Northern-German immigrants, now
doing a job in the US-Army :-)?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 19:06:54 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:06:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.120654.0700.>

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (03) [E]

Cr?ost?ir said:

"Mark, I think Brussels / EU English is considered perplexing because it is
notoriously bureaucratic and convoluted, rather than a separate, new
variety. There may be some influence from substrates (particularly French, I
would imagine), but that would only apply to informal internal e-mails and
memos, not to official documents."

I think that some lexical choices are influenced by French substrates, even
in official terminology, examples being _subsidiarity_ and _patrimony_, the
latter often being used in reference to linguistic heritage.  There are also
out-and-out loan words such as _communautaire_.  It would be easy enough to
conduct a study comparing the proportion of Latinate vocabulary in EU
documents with that in home-grown British or Irish legislation.  I suspect
it would be greater.

--
Best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

----------

From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (03) [E]


I have to agree.  I have an internet buddy in England.  We've been
corresponding for five years and have never had any difficulty understanding
what the other is getting at, even though we speak quite informally, using
local idioms and dialects, and of course the ever-present clich?s.  I also
have correspondents in Israel who are primarily Hebrew speaking, understand
English as it's spoken to them, but sometimes make charming syntax errors
when answering.  U.S. pop culture has spread so far and wide, about which I
have some regrets.  On the other hand, within the U.S. there are regions of
outback places like very rural Georgia where accents are so thick many
who've not been exposed to "southern" talk, have a hard time understanding.
But the Internet, English-language newspapers and magazines, radio and
television pretty much make all of it intelligible to everyone who's learned
even elemental English.

Marsha's two-cents

----- Original Message -----

From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]

 But as I say, given how interconnected English speakers are now, it seems
unlikely to me.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 23:35:12 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:35:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.04.13 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.163512.0700.>

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (07) [E]

Since when do rural Georgians speak English? If they speak anything
but Georgian, I would expect it to be something more along the lines
of Russian, Abkhazian, Ossetic, Armenian, or Azeri (ignoring de-facto
independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, otherwise you would
probably have to exclude Abkhazian and Ossetic).

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Oy, Mark!

Bless you, but quit picking on our Marsha, one of my favorite compatriots!

Besides, the languages of *the other* Georgia are (in the order of speaker
numbers) Georgian (Kartvelian), Mingrelian, Abkhaz, Osetian, Urum, Kurdish,
Judeo-Georgian, Svan, Bats, Neo-Aramaic (both Assyrian and Bohtan), Laz, and
also Russian and some Azeri.

And far more languages than that are used in *our* Georgia.  So there!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 23:39:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:39:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.13 (09) [A/E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.163952.0700.>

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From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]

Darrin Speegle's quote from Scholtz's book is completely to the point but I
should have mentioned in my first posting that years ago I published a paper
in German which deals with these statements and my conclusion was -- and
still is -- that there is an aweful lot of wishful thinking and an absence
of a sound analysis in these remarks of Scholtz's.

On the other hand Scholtz is referring to a construction which could be
reanalyzed by  L2 speakers of Cape Dutch.

Wat is het geval?

First of all, we can say similar things in colloquial Dutch (colloquial
ABN). However the adverb is not part of the noun phrase. It is an attention
caller a pragmatic particle at the beginning of a sentence:

Hier, dit boek is vast wel iets voor jou. [OK]
Zullen we -- hier -- dit hondje dan maar kopen? [difficult, but comletely
ungrammaritical if the intonation breaks are left out]

Hier, met deze hamer lukt het misschien wel
*Met hier deze hamer  lukt het mischien wel [only 'possible' with intonation
breaks]

As for German: "dort der Holunderstrauch" does not contain a demonstrative
"dort  der" Those who accept "dort der Holunderstrauch" as a constituent
probably also accept "auf der Ecke der Mann" (as I was told people do, after
I had given my talk in Essen: H. den Besten "?niversalgrammatik und/oder
Zweitsprachenerwerb: der Fall Afrikaans" in N Bortezky et al. (ed.) Beitr?ge
zum 4. Essener Kolloquium ?ber "Sprachkontakt, Sprachwandel,
Sprachtod"....". Bochum: Brocklmeyer, 1988, pp. 11-44 (esp. 19-27).

Nevertheless, this colloquial structure may have given the impetus for the
construction of "hierdie"and "daardie"(AND "doerdie") in nonnative C ape
Dutch, as Roberge has pointed out in a recent article..

By the way: the oldest attestation for "daardie" has already been pushed
back to 1797 (paper by Raidt).

Hans den Besten

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

Wat hierdie en daardie betref, ek het iets in ``Wording en ontwikkeling
van Afrikaans" deur J. du P. Scholtz gekry wat dalk vir julle interessant
is.  Ek kon nie Hahn se oorspronklikke e-pos kry nie, ek hoop ek herhaal
nie wat hy daar gese^ het nie.  Ek haal aan:

Die teenstellende aanwysende voornaamwoorde hierdie en daardie is uit geen
Kaapse bron van voor 1850 opgeteken nie, wat egter nie beteken dat die
vorme eers in die 19de eeu in Afrikaans ontstaan het nie.  Die aanwysende
voornaamwoorde die' het hom net deur sterker aksent van die bepaalde
lidwoord die onderskei, en met die verdwyning van deze is die geleentheid
vergroot vir die ontwikkeling en verspreiding van nuwe teenstellende
aanwaysende voornaamwoorde.  Die neiging tot nadurlikheid en oormatige
aanwysing, wat 'n kenmerk van die vroee" Kaapse taalgebruik was, kon die
ontstaan van vorme soos hierdie en daardie in die hand werk.  Dit is
moontlik dat die aanloop tot die Afrikaanse formasies in die 17de-eeuse
Hollands moet gesoek word.  In die huidige Hollandse volkstaal is
konstruksies bekend wat na aan die Afrikaans staan (bv. "Hier die frome
is-ter dak en muur van de kerk"). en vergelykbare konstruksies kom ook al
in die 17de eeu voor (bv. "Hier de kopster, Neel slimmongs" - uit
Bredero).  Daar is trouens ook gewys op konstruksies uit 18de eeuse Duits
wat byna identiek met die Afrikaans is ("Dort der Holunderstrauch verbrigt
mich ihm" - uit Schiller).  Onafhanklike ontstaan van hierdie en daardie
deur verskuiwing in sinaktiese geleding van sinne soos "Sien jy daar die
man met die groen hoed?" is egter ook goed denkbaar.  Van vreemde
oorsprong, of selfs tipies Afrikaans, is die konstruksies in elk geval
nie, want hierdie en daardie is as (oormatig) aanduidende vorme ook in 'n
Brabantse dialek aangewys.

Beste,
Darrin Speegle

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]

No, <yonder> is of course not directly related to hierdie or daardie,
but to Dutch <ginder/daarginds> over there, <ginds> (adject) yonder,
Dutch LS <gunter> idem. Dutch has also relatives: degene <the one> = de +
gene, hetgeen <the one> (neutr) = het + geen.

But there are some words related to <hier>: Dutch <heden>, German Heute =
today (formal/archaic); <huidig> = present, today's. <her en der> here and
there. German: heurig = this year's.
Related to <daar>: dergelijk/diergelijk = similar, the like, or would those
be conjugated forms of articles <de> and <die>? And again <her en der>.

Ingmar

>From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>
>From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]
>
>> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
>> searching
>> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
>> not
>> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)
>
>Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
>almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
>but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
>least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?
>
>Darrin.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 13 23:52:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:52:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.13.APR.2005.165219.0700.>

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]

>> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Etymology
>>
>> Hans (above):
>>
>>> I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder")
>>
>> Low Saxon has _g?nt_ ~ _gunt_ (> _g?ntsyds_ ~ _guntsyds_).

In Dutch dialects and Town Frisian (based on Hollandic dialects,
mostly), the form
"gunter" is used, but mostly in expressions like "fan hier tot gunter"
(in Harlingen dialect)
(== very large, very far away)

>> Regards,
>> Reinhard/Ron
>> From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
>> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>>
>> Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>>> What about "yonder"? <
>>
>> OED:   yonder: over there : corresponds to Old Saxon  gendra ( adj)
>> West
>> Frisian ginder ( adj) = on this side    Middle Dutch  ghinder, gunder
>> (Dutch ginder)  Gothic jaindre.

Modern West Frisian has "jinsen" (but this is archaic, mostly, older
people might still use it).
Saterfrisian has "juns" (as German "jene, jener, jenes)(see yonder for
the vowel, I think)
and Mooring (and probably more North Frisian dialects) has "dajanter,
jjanter" etc so also "article + demonstrative"
as in "dadeer" etc.  Also "jans" (< *jins ) occurs there.

>> yon = Old English  geon   correspondsa with variation of vowels to
>> OFris
>> jen(a)   MLG  gene   MDu  ghens   OHG  jener   Goth   jains = that

Yes, curiously enough, also Saterfrisian has this vowel variant.

>> There is a parallel series of forms without the initial consonant:
>> OHG ener
>> ON enn, inn  Oslav  onu  Sanskrit  ana = this one
>>
>> It actually doesn't explain the -der  suffix
>>
>> Heather
Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]

What do Germans use instead of Jener?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Ben!

_Jener_ (masc.), _jene_ (fem./pl.) and _jenes_ (neut.) sound bookish or
poetic.  I would probably say things like _der/die/das ... da/dort
(hinten/dr?ben)_ to express that something is far away, just as you would
say something like _the/that ... (over) there_ instead of _yon ..._ in
Modern English.  In Low Saxon I'd say something like _de/dat ... daar_,
pretty much as in English.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 14:55:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:55:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.075514.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (03) [E]

I regard them and their ilk as such but then I am probably of a much
earlier generation than most of you folks. The most atrocious example
of all appears in Scots English, the ghastly 'Thingwy' which is used as
a substitute for any noun and is often used more than once in a
sentence..."Ah went tae thingwy's tae git a thingwy." was commonplace
in Working Class Edinburgh in my childhood. Like Orwellian Newspeak it
ultimately restricted the thought process and the vocabulary of the
users. Far from exclusive to the Working Class I even knew several
English academics who adopted it when resident in Scotland.

On 14/04/2005, at 12:40 AM, Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca> wrote:

> I don't think you can really say language deteriorates at all. You
> mention "Fab" and "Telly". Are these examples of deterioration?
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi, Tom!

Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that only in
my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well.

In Northern German (at least), possibly based on Low Saxon, you can use
_Dings_ or _Dingsda_ in much the same fashion.  _Ding_ is 'thing', and _da_
is assumedly the word for 'there'.  In Missingsch and derived German
dialects you can say _Dings_ (not plural) instead of _Ding_, also in Low
Saxon, which is why I assume this _Dingsda_ comes from Low Saxon _dat dings
daar_ 'the/that thing there'.  But in the named German dialects _Dingsda_
can be used without the article, even for names one has forgotten, both
names for people and places (as in the operetta _Der Vetter aus Dingsda_
"The Cousin from Whatsisname" by Eduard K?nneke and Hermann Haller, here
probably implying something like "whatever boondocks").  This _Dingsda_ can
be used much the same as American English "thingymabob," "whatsisname,"
"doodad" etc., and also like non-American "thingy" (and Scots _thingwy_?),
as in Missingsch _Wassn nas Dinksd?_ (= _Was ist denn das Ding(s) da_) 'What
sort of (weird) thing/gadget/contraption/thingymabob/doodad is that
(there)?"   You can also combine it with _weisch?_ (= _(du) wei?t ja_ 'well,
you know (what)'); e.g., _Das happich von weisch? Dinksd? gekricht_ 'I got
it from ya know Whatsisname.'

So your  (well, not *yours* of course) Scots _Ah went tae thingwy's tae git
a thingwy_  would be in Missingsch _Ich bin?u Dinksd? das Dinksd? hooln_.

So according to you it causes cerebral atrophy (or lexical shrinkage), huh?
My wife would be inclined to agree with you there, at least in my case, or
she would say it's the result of it .  ;-)  In my case it tends to set in
when it's past my bedtime.  I guess you wouldn't be amused.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 14:58:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:58:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.14 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.075826.0700.>

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.04.13 (08) [E]

In addition to several English varieties and Gullah (also known as Sea
Islands Creole English), Muskogee, Choctaw, Cherokee, etc. are native to the
US State of Georgia in some sense or another (although there are speakers of
Mandarin in Georgia, there is no distinct "Georgian
dialect" of Mandarin).

Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 14:59:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:59:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.14 (03) [A]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.075952.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Minority Languages"

Dag almal,

Hierdie artikel rakende Afrikaans het gister in Die Beeld verskyn:
http://www.news24.com/Beeld/Hoofartikels/0,,3-65_1689225,00.html

?'n Ministeri?le komitee oor die ontwikkeling van inheemse tale as
onderrigmedium in ho?r onderwys het volgens die Suid-Afrikaanse Akademie vir
Wetenskap en Kuns pas in 'n verslag nagelaat om Afrikaans as 'n inheemse
taal te kategoriseer wat versorging nodig het om te kan oorleef in 'n
omgewing wat deur Engels oorheers word.

Me. Naledi Pandor, minister van onderwys, behoort toe te sien dat di? oorsig
reggestel word voordat s? 'n verslag aanvaar word.

Afrikaans is 'n inheemse taal. Die taal is in onderwys onder druk vanwe?
owerheidsaandrang dat die fokus op Engels moet wees. Dieselfde geld die
ander amptelike tale. Almal behoort deur die staat ondersteun te word soos
die Grondwet in art. 6(2) voorsien.

Enigiemand wat enige twyfel oor Afrikaans se status as inheemse taal het,
kan gerus art. 6 (1) van ons Grondwet lees. Dit kategoriseer Afrikaans saam
met die tale wat in die ministeri?le komitee se verslag gemeld word.?

Die webtuiste vir die SA Akademie vir Wetenskap en Kuns is by
http://www.akademie.co.za/
en bevat interessante inligting.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 15:01:33 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:01:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.14 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.080133.0700.>

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From: klaus schmirler <KSchmir at online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (10) [E]

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>

> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]
>
> What do Germans use instead of Jener?
>
and

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hi, Ben!
>
> _Jener_ (masc.), _jene_ (fem./pl.) and _jenes_ (neut.) sound bookish or
> poetic.  I would probably say things like _der/die/das ... da/dort
> (hinten/dr?ben)_

There is nothing funny about Swabian (and I hope it isn't any more off
topic than questions about "German"), but I noticed this:

Swabian has an opposition of "daw hinner/hanner" ("English"
transcription) and "daw hunner". Whereas the former clearly means "back
there, da hinten", the latter, if it is related to "gunt", means just
the opposite: in this very place, here.

klaus

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 19:09:37 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:09:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.04.14 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.120937.0700.>

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From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.04.13 (08) [E]


LOL, good one Mark!  And thank you, Ron.  I suppose any region that uses the
word "boogher" as an endearment, must be speaking something other than the
Queen's English.  Gotta love those ol' distant cousins of mine.

Marsha
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
  Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (07) [E]

  Since when do rural Georgians speak English? If they speak anything
  but Georgian, I would expect it to be something more along the lines
  of Russian, Abkhazian, Ossetic, Armenian, or Azeri (ignoring de-facto
  independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, otherwise you would
  probably have to exclude Abkhazian and Ossetic).

  Mark

  ----------

  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  Subject: Language use

  Oy, Mark!

  Bless you, but quit picking on our Marsha, one of my favorite compatriots!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 19:14:57 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:14:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.121457.0700.>

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From: ?j??r?kr ?j??reksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

We have a similar "dinges" here, you generally use it when the name or word
doesn't want to come up to your mind immediately.

"Geef mij de dinges eens?"

"Ik heb gisteren dinges nog gezien!" (here it's about a person whose name
you can't remember)

I have no idea if this is considered "good" Dutch or not - I only hear it
spoken, never seen it in written language. (maybe one of our Netherlandic
people here can tell if it's widespread overthere as well)

Diederik Masure

>From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
>Subject: Lexicon

>Hi, Tom!
>
>Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that
>only in
>my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well.
>
>In Northern German (at least), possibly based on Low Saxon, you can
>use
>_Dings_ or _Dingsda_ in much the same fashion.  _Ding_ is 'thing',
>and _da_
>is assumedly the word for 'there'.  In Missingsch and derived German
>dialects you can say _Dings_ (not plural) instead of _Ding_, also in
>Low
>Saxon, which is why I assume this _Dingsda_ comes from Low Saxon
>_dat dings
>daar_ 'the/that thing there'.  But in the named German dialects
>_Dingsda_
>can be used without the article, even for names one has forgotten,
>both
>names for people and places (as in the operetta _Der Vetter aus
>Dingsda_
>"The Cousin from Whatsisname" by Eduard K??nneke and Hermann Haller,
>here
>probably implying something like "whatever boondocks").  This
>_Dingsda_ can
>be used much the same as American English "thingymabob,"
>"whatsisname,"
>"doodad" etc., and also like non-American "thingy" (and Scots
>_thingwy_?),
>as in Missingsch _Wassn nas Dinksd??_ (= _Was ist denn das Ding(s)
>da_) 'What
>sort of (weird) thing/gadget/contraption/thingymabob/doodad is that
>(there)?"   You can also combine it with _weisch??_ (= _(du) wei??t
>ja_ 'well,
>you know (what)'); e.g., _Das happich von weisch?? Dinksd??
>gekricht_ 'I got
>it from ya know Whatsisname.'
>
>So your  (well, not *yours* of course) Scots _Ah went tae thingwy's
>tae git
>a thingwy_  would be in Missingsch _Ich bin??u Dinksd?? das Dinksd??
>hooln_.
>
>So according to you it causes cerebral atrophy (or lexical
>shrinkage), huh?
>My wife would be inclined to agree with you there, at least in my
>case, or
>she would say it's the result of it .  ;-)  In my case it tends to
>set in
>when it's past my bedtime.  I guess you wouldn't be amused.
>
>Cheers!
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

Dear Lowlanners,
Ron wrote:

> In Northern German (at least), possibly based on Low Saxon, you can use
> _Dings_ or _Dingsda_ in much the same fashion.  _Ding_ is 'thing', and
> _da_
> is assumedly the word for 'there'.

Even more famous in these days is _Dingsbums_, meaning all the the same.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Lexicon

"Dingsbums," Jonny?  Tja, dat ken ik ook noch.  Dat geev' 't sogaar al v?r
my.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 19:16:51 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:16:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.14 (07) [E]
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanners, Reinhard,

a good ten days ago there was in the topic "Traditions" the _gowk_. Ron
wrote:
>
> _Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.

Yesterday a friend of mine, linguist by profession, I asked for the word:
LS: "Jokus", E: "joke", "jocose", G: "Jux".

He told me, that this word first appeared in the 18. century among students,
meaning G: "Rederei", "Geschw?tz".
It is assumed to be akin to Latin: "jocolator" = G: "Gaukler" as well as to
AHD (Old-High-German): "jehan" - G: "ansagen, verk?nden...".
Its roots are supposely indoeuropean and cognate with the French: "jeu".

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 19:18:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:18:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.14 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.121821.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.13 (02) [E]

I got an off-line reaction from a Triple-L member who's called Arvid too.
Although from American, he's got a Dutch last name... What a coincidence!

In Dutch we say <arend> for eagle, but <adelaar> from German <Adler> (?)
is used just as much.

By the way, the city I live nearby, Arnhem, means Home of the Eagle(s).
< aren(d)+heem. It has its own German name too, <Arnheim>. Its local name
is <Ernem>, in Low Saxon <Arem>. Arnhem is (in)famous because of its
Bridge too far, September 1944, when the allied forces tried but failed to
liberate the city across the Rhine. After that, the Northern half of the
Netherlands stayed in German hands. All inhabitants of Arnhem were forced
to leave the city for about eight months, there wasn't left much when the
returned.

I cross this bridge weekly, by bike or car, and often think about its
history then. It is called John Frost-brug now...

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.12 (02) [E]
>
>>Not to be forgotten "Arvid" = Old Norse <Eagle of the Wood>, as we called
>or youngest son
>Ingmar
>
>>From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
>>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.11 (08) [E]
>>>And the eagles: Arndt, Arend, Arnold, etc.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 21:44:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:44:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (09) [E]
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (06) [E/LS]

He, Ron,

You mean: even if You're tired You remember that _Dingsda_, eeh
_Dingenskirch_ eeh- ooh- I've got it: _Dingsbums-? :-))!

Grinning Greutens (You are even slightly younger than I am!! I'm watching
the same going on with me)/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

Thingwy reminds me of the repulsive, vomit-causing term that my generation
adores:  Thingy! If you say thingy, expect me to vomit my last seven meals
onto your best white shirt! I am blind, and I heard it much when I was in
high school. What's that thingy in your hand? That is a linguistic bullet to
the brain.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 21:47:03 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:47:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.14 (10) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.144703.0700.>

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From: mark & ruth <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.12 (02) [E]

Dear Gabriele,

Subject: Humour

> Large global deer: Hieronymoose, Rasmoose, and the female Lower Saxon name
> Elke

Ag, dis Moose Dierbaar, u Hartelikke be?ming vir die takbokreus.

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 14 22:12:29 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:12:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.14 (11) [A/E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.151229.0700.>

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From: mark & ruth <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.09 (03) [E/F/LS]

Hullo Henno, en Ron:

 Onderwerp "Etymology"

> > I have another question regarding Afrikaans.

Hi, Ron en almal. Hiermee wil ek my spaan insteek. Saam met 'hierdie en
daardie' het ons ook die 'dit en dat' in Afrikaans. Ons ken dit en ons
gebruik dit net soos julle, beide as blote uitdrukking asook om 'n keuse of
keur oor te dra.

bv. "Nee, Tannie, ons gons net oor dit en dat!" oftwel, "dit, dat en die
ander."
      "Wil jy dit (uitgewys) h? of wil jy dat (uitgewys) h?? Die keuse is
joune."

Die Uwe,
Mark

---------

From: mark & ruth <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.09 (03) [E/F/LS]

Hullo Almal,

Onderwerp: "Etymology"

> *Knief*

Wat van die Afrikaans 'knak' English 'break'? Maar die Engels gebruik 'n
woord 'knap' om 'n vuursteentjie uit te slaan, vir 'n grotbewoner se spies
of mes en vir die snaphaan van die ou jagter. Dit is 'n elegante beskrywing
van die wyse hoe om die flint te bekom, en so s? die geledere wat in die ou
kuns vaardig is, 'ek knak vir my 'n vuurklippie."

Die Uwe,
Mark

----------

From: mark & ruth <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]

Beste JB den Besten, Ingmar, Ron, Peter en Almal.

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Sak tog, Sarel! (& anybody else).

Afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",

What about 'thisyer' & 'thatyer' that my Grandfather picked up somewhere in
North England during the General Strike? Anyway, speakers are not slaves to
linguistic precident. Invention & extrapolation is a recognised & familiar
tool of common speech.

Ingmar, I want to hear more from you & Hans. Just get you excited & pearls
of wisdom simply pour from your lips.

However, I think Ron has made a point worthy of note here.
> >On a personal note, I don't see why we ought to consider only "either ...
> or
> >..." instead of a multi-origin possibility.

The Nederlands Colonial Empire was born of a serious stirring of nearly
related communities following the war of liberation from Spain. Certainly
the Hollands dialect was important, bearing on the economic dominance of
that region, but it served, I believe, as a common mean to the speakers of
other dialects. They spoke Hollands to each other, but each in his own way.

Now I have something else to say. Many Nederlanders wintered over in Israel,
on my kibbutz, the years I was there. As compared to Gretchen from
Rotterdam, The Fries guys (Stadsfries, it seemed to me) and Sibella from
Dordrecht, Hans, a denizen of Amsterdam & Kim the Flaming among many others,
I followed the conversation with the Zeelandies twins, Celestine & Marianne
rather the best. That has to count for something. Mind you, Kim & I drank
very well together. Also, bear in mind the dialectic features of my Taal
were ossified over two-&-a-half centuries ago. Modern Zeeus doesn't sound
the way it did then. Afrikaans certainly doesn't! Extrapolating from modern
Zeeus or Hollands to Modern Afrikaans is reckless & unhelpful.

Guys, I have been out of the picture some time, with the death of my
computer, so hullo agin. It is pleasant to lurk a whil, & keep it stirring.

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

Haai, Mark! Welkom tuis!

> Hi, Ron en almal. Hiermee wil ek my spaan insteek. Saam met 'hierdie en
> daardie' het ons ook die 'dit en dat' in Afrikaans. Ons ken dit en ons
> gebruik dit net soos julle, beide as blote uitdrukking asook om 'n keuse
> of
> keur oor te dra.
>
> bv. "Nee, Tannie, ons gons net oor dit en dat!" oftwel, "dit, dat en die
> ander."

Dat segt wy lyk so in 't Neddersassische:

"Nee, wy snakt man bloots so oever dit (~ d?t) un dat!"

>       "Wil jy dit (uitgewys) h? of wil jy dat (uitgewys) h?? Die keuse is
> joune."

"Wult du dit (~ d?t) hebben, or wult du dat hebben? De koyr is dyn."

Ek glo Afrikaans "hierdie" en "daardie" is adjektiewe, en "dit" en "dat" is
pronomen.

- Wil jy hierdie pop h??
- Nee, ek wil daardie (pop) h?.

- Wil jy dit (hier) h??
- Nee, ek wil dat (daar) h?.

Reg so?

Nedersaksies:

- Wult du d?sse pop hebben?
- Nee, ik wil dey (daar/pop) hebben.

Over saaklike of onsekere sake:

- Wult du d?t (hyr) hebben?
- Nee, ik wil dat (daar) hebben.

Over poppe (vroulik):

- Wult du d?sse (hyr) hebben?
- Nee, ik wil dey (daar) hebben.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 00:31:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:31:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.14.APR.2005.173131.0700.>

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi All

Ron, you said

"Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that only in
my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well."

Yup, in England I've used thingy before, and thingmyjig, and thingmybob, and
plain thingmy and
wodyacallit, and...

ok question - anyone got an idea about the etymology of the 'jig' and 'bob'
parts of the thingmies above?

Gary

ps. congrats Ron on your becoming a bit more American, not sure I'd take the
plunge and become German, give me another 20 years perhaps... :)

---------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

Only person I know who used that was from Durham.
Far as bloody Thingwy goes one Aussie friend uses it routinely but his
Dad was a Scots wheelwright who obviously brought it with him.
My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'. I
notice US pollies have adopted this in recent years.
Worst Australian innovation was when some pompous academic in the early
20th century started referring to those of Scots and Irish decent as
Anglo Celts. Totally inaccurate collective term that became standard,
even turning up on census forms. After prolonged pressure from Irish,
and Scots to a lesser extent, it was abolished from officialdom in the
1970's. Some politicians eg Pauline Hanson,still use it and we cringe.
On 15/04/2005, at 12:55 AM, Lowlands-L wrote:

> Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that
> only in
> my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well.
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Gary and Tom!

Gary:

> thingmyjig, and thingmybob

> wodyacallit

Yep, I use those too (but only when our Tom is out of earshot), also
"Whatyamacallit."

Tom:

> My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite peeves, too, this and British "At the end of
the day ..."

Instead of "At this point in time" I like to say "At this juncture ..." and
I try to do it in the form of an impression of George Bush sr.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 18:10:39 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:10:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.111039.0700.>

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From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

Hehe, true, it's a little bizarre when people talk that way, but I
think cause and effect are a little mixed up here. People say that
because they're too lazy to insert the actual entities they're
discussing, but I don't think it's really affecting the language in any
huge way. We have the same thing happening here in Canada, often. In
fact I'd bet that most languages have some equivalent. In Russian it's
??? ????? ('EtV 'samojE) or ????? ('shtukV), in Spanish if I remember
correctly it's "ese..." If that was being said frequently in Edinburgh
as you say, I'd call it more of a cultural phenomenon with linguistic
consequences, wouldn't you? Although I'll agree that with some speakers
it affects the thought processes.

Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?

> I regard them and their ilk as such but then I am probably of a much
> earlier generation than most of you folks. The most atrocious example
> of all appears in Scots English, the ghastly 'Thingwy' which is used as
> a substitute for any noun and is often used more than once in a
> sentence..."Ah went tae thingwy's tae git a thingwy." was commonplace
> in Working Class Edinburgh in my childhood. Like Orwellian Newspeak it
> ultimately restricted the thought process and the vocabulary of the
> users. Far from exclusive to the Working Class I even knew several
> English academics who adopted it when resident in Scotland.

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]

Hi all,

You were talking about, well, whadyacallem?  Doobris (no idea how to
spell that word - rhymes with blueberries, when pronounced with two
syllables).  Widgets.  Was hoofer-doofer ever one of these words? I seem
to remember it was, but now it has the specific meaning of a television
remote control.

Unfortunately, nominal aphasia means I use a wide variety of these
words.

What are their Dutch equivalents.  I would find them very useful for
such sentences as 'Does it have a .... whotsit - you know, little window
that is in the roof of a house'

Best wishes to all,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Hi All
>
> Ron, you said
>
> "Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that only
> in
> my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well."
>
> Yup, in England I've used thingy before, and thingmyjig, and thingmybob,
> and
> plain thingmy and
> wodyacallit, and...

All those are used here in the US too, although I'd spell them differently:

Thingamajig, thingamabob, thingamy, whatchamacallit, plus whatsit, whosit,
whositwhatsit, gadget, doodad, doohickey, doololly, whatchamadoodle,
whatsisname, whatsisface, and plain ol' thingy.  Probably a lot of others
too, but I can't think of them right now, and individual speakers often
create their own variations.

There's even a brand of candy bar called Whatchamacallit.

> From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
>
> Only person I know who used that was from Durham.
> Far as bloody Thingwy goes one Aussie friend uses it routinely but his
> Dad was a Scots wheelwright who obviously brought it with him.
> My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
> hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'. I
> notice US pollies have adopted this in recent years.

Oh, Americans have been using that for decades when they are trying to sound
formal.

The one that grates on my ear these days is "Back in the day".  Back in what
day?  What happened to "Back in the old days" or "Back when I was young"?

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]


"At this point in time."  A pet peeve of mine, also.  I remember it being
popularized in politics and news reporting during the Nixon/Watergate era
and considered it a part of the general air of obfuscation rampant then.  It
spread to the general public here in the States and was quite common by the
late 70's - still is, unfortunately.  Sets my teeth on edge every time.

According to http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/
This redundancy became popular because it was used by astronauts seeking to
distinguish precisely between a point in time and a point in space. Since
most people use the expression in contexts where there is no ambiguity, it
makes more sense to say simply ?at this point? or ?at this time.?

  From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
  Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]

  My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
  hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'.
----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Me again...

So with regards to our Ron saying 'whatyamacallit'

an additional question to my last etymological one(and
probably a more interesting one is) where did this
'me/my/mi/ma" etc. come from - grammatically it
doesn't make a lot of sense when saying thing'my'jig,
wodya'ma'callit etc... are there parallels in other
lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
doesn't really belong - or does it? - I'm willing to
be proved wrong

Gary

http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Ian wrote above about a Russian word:

> ????? ('shtukV),

Apparently it comes from German _St?ck_ 'piece', 'item'.

> Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
> Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?

I've heard my Canadian relatives (in Southern Alberta, who also lived in
Calgary until recently) use this.  It struck me as only a slightly strange
the first time I heard it, but it was immediately understandable,
reminiscent of "dealibob," another such term used in the U.S.

Great to hear from our ... Whatyamacaller ... Pat above.  Hope things are
going well for you, Pat.

> Unfortunately, nominal aphasia means I use a wide variety of these
> words.

I confess that that makes at least two of us.  I know our Tom would just
stomp out in utter disgust if he had to listen to the two of us.

Interesting etymological question there, Gary.  I suspect "my" to have
slipped in there for some reason.

By the way, thanks for the congratulations, Gary.  (I forgot to say it last
night because I was in a rush.)  The sight of those very ancient Ukrainian
ladies holding miniscule American flags was an unexpected bonus, as was the
jolly company of my little "sub-possy" (from Canada, Italy, Ethiopia,
Ukraine, Vietnam, Germany, Argentina, England, Bangladesh and Israel) during
the long waits.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Don't forget that today is tax deadline, boys and girls in the U.S.!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 18:14:08 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:14:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.15 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.111408.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (05) [E]

Another example of Dutch Low Saxon, where in this case short <i>
rhymes with short <?>. Again from Boh Foi Toch, in the last part of their
song  "Waerkommen" (coming back [i.e home, to the Achterhoek]) (ANS):

Ow huyskommen k?'y hyr manges VINDEN
An den Olden Ysselt sit iy good
Hyr b?nt de naober vaak noch VR?NDEN
En is de weld noch neet so groot.

And now the entire song:

Waerkommen:

De locht h?ngt swaor under de kappe
Noch evkes en den trein steet voer
Ik hove bloos maor in te stappen
Up weg nao huys, de reise geet doer

Et volk steet ?m miy haer to praoten
Se gaot de selvde kante up
Ik l?ster met, ik kan't neet laoten
De woerde ryget sik in myn kop

Refr.:

Kyk, moy, kerl b?n iy der ok?
Ik loop ow jao so-wat van de bene
Gao-r-iy t'huys ok up de kapok
Dat is toch unm?ndig lang elene

Een naam, een sin of bloos een klank
Myn hoefd steet nao huys up an
Langs Duyven en Dym in enen gang
Geet v?ls to drao den trein v?rdan

Et Montferland lig in de wydten
De weidens draeit oer grote rad
Herinnerings b?nt neet weg te slyten
Te depe b?nt se vast esat

Refr.

En of iy komt uyt Yservoorde
Uyt Mokem of uyt Marrakech
Al stun ow weeg in't hoge noorden
In Oosseld of in Bangladesh

Ow huyskommen k?'y hyr manges vinden
An den Olden Ysselt sit iy good
Hyr b?nt de naobers noch vaak vr?nden
En is de weld noch neet so groot

Refr.
***

Ingmar

>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.03 (01) [E]
>
>An example of Dutch Low Saxon where <?> rhymes with <e> is found in the
>third part of the song "Bernd van Kuyperiy" of the popular Achterhoeks
>band Boh Foi Toch :
>
>in et voerjaor gao'w dan langs den ES
>wiy lopet daor samen hand in hand
>en biy de bekke in et GR?S
>vleget unse lyve in de brand
>de kalvere stuvet haost doer den draod
>de kyften raert hoog an de locht
>ik wette met miy selv gin raod
>ik heb so lang hyr nao esocht
>ik kryge van ou jao neet genoch
>nee noyt genoch
>
>(I transcribed it in ANS)
>
>So <es> (a kind of agr. field) and <gr?s> grass are rhyming here.
>
>I'll give you the first two parts of the song too:
>
>Goyendag myn dern b?n iy noch vriy
>myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
>Ik heb 'ne moye burderiy
>den's ok van ou a'y trout met miy
>ik heb good melk up al myne grund
>der is voer twe platse sat
>'k heb vyftig beeste en een hund
>myn va en mo woont ampart
>a'y biy myn komt
>geev ik myn lyf, geev ik myn hart
>
>Ik sag ou aover straote gaon
>iy kwamen kort an miy voerbiy
>Mag ik wel evkes biy ou staon
>myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
>Ik heb ou hyr noch noyt eseen
>iy komt hyr sekers neet vandan
>Ik voele miy mangs so alleen
>gin derntjen w?g et met miy an
>Ik do voer ou, a'y biy miy komt
>al wat ik kan
>
>In et voerjaor gao'w dan ... etc
>
>***
>
>The dialect is Western Achterhoek Low Saxon, as one may see with a lot of
>schwa-deletion already - like neighboring Low Franconian and Dutch, and
>using sec. pers. pronouns <iy/ou> in stead of more Eastern <dou/diy>,
>again as in Dutch <jij/jou> and Low Franc. <giy/ou>.
>
>Ingmar Roerdinkholder
>
>>From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> Would rhyming "u" with "i" sound OK in the other
>>> Lowlands languages?
>>>
>>> Darrin
>>
>>Hallo,
>>
>>'Not-perfect' rhyming is generally accepted  [at least
>>in the Germanic languages] when the two rhyming sounds
>>have the same number [and kind] of distinctive
>>features, unless one.
>>
>>vr.gr.
>>Theo Homan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 18:23:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:23:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.112322.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]

Dear Lowlanners, Reinhard,

in LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]
I wrote:

> yesterday I heard another interesting and still used LS-word:
>
> *Weet*:
> HG: '[halbnasses Heu, zum weiteren Trocknen im] ''Schwad''
> E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'', ''row'' ???
> (help needed, at this point!).
>
> My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but
> in
> LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] j?ten', E: of course! 'to
> weed'.
> Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in the good old
> sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.
>
> I guess it to be remarkable- it could be Low-Saxon's nearly forgotten
> connection to E: 'wet', and I don't know any HG-word even in the near.

Sorry- amateurish investigated! Smalltime-etymologist, me!

I have to withdraw all of it, because yesterday I had to learn, that this
word only is used in an area (and spread out a little into the
surroundings), which had been settled by Dutch/Frisian colonists.
It is a small district, consisting of a handfull villages, just about 10 km
away from my home, called "Sietland" (E: lowland).
In the 13. century we had an arch-bishop of Bremen, who was a Dutch count.
He started to cultivate waste, wet land with his countrymen, and some more
waves of Dutch/Frisian immigrants followed in the 14. century.

Isn't it interesting to learn, that these people completely melted with the
native population, but there are still, after 700!! years, thus obvious
relicts of their language?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen, Jonny!

About this _sydland_ ... To me it connotes low-lying, often wet land (from
_syd(')_ 'shallow'), probably at or below sea level, whereas I would call
the general lowlands of Europe _platland_ ("flat land," cf. Afrikaans
_platteland_) or _leygland_ (from _leyg(')_ 'low', also > 'inferior',
'bad').  To me, _sydland_ tends to be more limited in size.

How does this sit with you and others?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 15 18:24:26 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:24:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.15 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.112426.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.14 (08) [E]


Ingmar wrote:
"I got an off-line reaction from a Triple-L member who's called Arvid too.
Although from American, he's got a Dutch last name... What a coincidence!"

My response will make it lucky three, then: friends of mine in Amersfoort
(the father is Dutch and the mother Frisian) named their elder son Arvid
because the father has a passion for Swedish culture and speaks Swedish.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 06:06:04 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:06:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.15 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.230604.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.15 (04) [E]

Hey, that's nice, another Arvid! Before we called our son like that I'd
never heard from that name... But not long after his birth I learned that
a football (soccer) player was called Arvid too, and a colleague's
boyfriend... And they were both from Doetinchem, Achterhoek, Gelderland...

Btw, I suppose your friends from A'foort will be both Dutch, Frisians are
Dutch too you know, Friesland is just a Dutch province... I can't say that
my wife Barbara is Dutch and I'm Low Saxon, because the Brabant dialects
are categorized under Dutch and Low Saxon is recognized as a seperate
language... No, we both have the Dutch nationality and ethnicity.
Maybe the Low Saxons and the Frisians could be called even more Dutch,
culturally, than the Southern, Roman Catholic Brabo's and Limbo's...
whe are closer to Belgium /Flemish etc

Ingmar

>From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.14 (08) [E]
>
>Ingmar wrote:
>"I got an off-line reaction from a Triple-L member who's called Arvid too.
>Although from America, he's got a Dutch last name... What a coincidence!"
>
>My response will make it lucky three, then: friends of mine in Amersfoort
>(the father is Dutch and the mother Frisian) named their elder son Arvid
>because the father has a passion for Swedish culture and speaks Swedish.
>
>Go raibh maith agat,
>
>Criost?ir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 06:12:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:12:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.15 (06) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.231252.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.15 (03) [E]

Leeve Reinhard,

You wrote:

> About this _sydland_ ... To me it connotes low-lying, often wet land (from
> _syd(')_ 'shallow'), probably at or below sea level, whereas I would call
> the general lowlands of Europe _platland_ ("flat land," cf. Afrikaans
> _platteland_) or _leygland_ (from _leyg(')_ 'low', also > 'inferior',
> 'bad').  To me, _sydland_ tends to be more limited in size.
>
> How does this sit with you and others?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

.... and it's absolutely correct!

Beste Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Groten Dank weet ik Dy, leyve Jonny.

D?t "syd" vindt sik ook in de segwys' "wyd un syd" ~ "wyd en syd"
(Nedderlandsch _wijd en zijd_, man Duytsch _weit und breit_, Ingelsch _far
and wide_).

Vr?ndliche groytens in 't huus!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 06:22:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:22:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.15.APR.2005.232224.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

In message <009401c541e6$71693150$29b88e8c at D5SYLB51>, Lowlands-L
<lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> writes
>an additional question to my last etymological one(and
>probably a more interesting one is) where did this
>'me/my/mi/ma" etc. come from - grammatically it
>doesn't make a lot of sense when saying thing'my'jig,
>wodya'ma'callit etc... are there parallels in other
>lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
>doesn't really belong - or does it? - I'm willing to
>be proved wrong

I think wodjamacallit could be "what you may call it".  The vowel in
'may' gets expressed as schwa, and written and expressed as a variety of
other sounds.

The 'my' or 'me' in 'thingamy' or 'thingame' seems different - the OED
says the Y is the diminiutive, and the original word is 'thingum' (with
the same meaning), being 'thing with a meaningless suffix'.

The OED thinks 'thingum' may be obsolete (last recorded 1808).  Does
anyone have later usage?

Cheers,

Wotserfeechers (Pat)
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Nominal aphasia.  Okay, so what happens when/if your aphasia gets so bad you
can't even bring the word (?) whatchamacallit to mind?  Do you just invent a
new one on the spot?  Let's see, now, where did I put that...oh you
know...that...

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Me again...
>
> So with regards to our Ron saying 'whatyamacallit'
>
> an additional question to my last etymological one(and
> probably a more interesting one is) where did this
> 'me/my/mi/ma" etc. come from - grammatically it
> doesn't make a lot of sense when saying thing'my'jig,
> wodya'ma'callit etc... are there parallels in other
> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
> doesn't really belong - or does it? - I'm willing to
> be proved wrong

I've always understood "whatchamacallit" as being a compressed form of
"what(ever) you may call it".

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Ian wrote above about a Russian word:
>
> > ????? ('shtukV),
>
> Apparently it comes from German _St?ck_ 'piece', 'item'.
>
> > Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
> > Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?
>
> I've heard my Canadian relatives (in Southern Alberta, who also lived in
> Calgary until recently) use this.  It struck me as only a slightly strange
> the first time I heard it, but it was immediately understandable,
> reminiscent of "dealibob," another such term used in the U.S.

Yes, I've heard "dealie" in the US, as well as "dealiebob" and
"dealiebobber".  Around 1982, a particular type of headgear called
"dealiebobbers" became popular, especially among children - they are
basically two long, stiff springs with plastic balls on one end and attached
to a plastic hairband on the other, so that the springs stick up in the air
like antennae and wiggle as you move your head.  I remember it was 1982
because they were sold in large quantities at the World's Fair in Knoxville
that year.

Seems like I've also heard "jobber" used the same way as "doohickey" or
"gadget".

> The sight of those very ancient Ukrainian
> ladies holding miniscule American flags was an unexpected bonus, as was
> the
> jolly company of my little "sub-possy" (from Canada, Italy, Ethiopia,
> Ukraine, Vietnam, Germany, Argentina, England, Bangladesh and Israel)
> during
> the long waits.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Surely you mean "posse" and not "possy".

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: embryomystic at cogeco.ca <embryomystic at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Ian Pollock wrote:
> Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect
> (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) is "dealie." Do any other
> dialects have this word?

I've heard it once or twice from speakers of my own dialect (Kingston,
Ontario, Canada), but I really associate it with
a particular sort of person(ality). And usually, it comes with a whole
circus of words preceding it. "A really neat
party type dealie," for instance.

I.M. Davis
[Isaac]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Kevin:

> Surely you mean "posse" and not "possy".

I surely did. Shame on me!

> "doohickey"

Oh, yes.  There's another one I hear a lot and sometimes use myself!
(Sorry, Tom ...)

"Jobber" was unknown to me.  Perhaps I need to go out more.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 20:11:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:11:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.16 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.16.APR.2005.131123.0700.>

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From: James Campbell <james at zolid.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]

Ron eskr? ?

> "Jobber" was unknown to me.  Perhaps I need to go out more.

I often use 'jobbery' (meaning the same as 'thingummy'), and have done for
15 years or so. Dunno where I picked that one up.

Compare 'jossop' (unspecified liquid) and 'clart' (unspecified gloop). These
were both inherited from my mother, a Northern lass by birth.

James

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
James Campbell                              james at zolid.com  www.zolid.com
Boring, but a cool boring.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

----------

From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Hi Gary,

> are there parallels in other
> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
> doesn't really belong - or does it?

In Limburgish it's quite common to ad 'me' near subject and verb, and to a
lesser extent in Dutch.
cfr 'Hij is me gisteren hier geweest'. 'Hoe noem je me dat?'
It's called a 'dativus Graeccus', stating who 's concerned (if I remember
well).
Grammatically wodya'ma'callit does make sense.

Hou je goed,

Jo Thys

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 16 20:45:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:45:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2005.04.16 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.16.APR.2005.134530.0700.>

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From: "Hirano Kazunari" <khirano at transwift.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]

Hi Hahn and all,

Let me introduce Hiroyuki Yokoyama to you all.

Please take a look at the following page created by him.
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak.htm
You will find Aynu (romanization), Aynu (kana) and Esperanto
translations of De Tuunkruper.

You can dowonload the text version here.
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak.txt

You should handle it with Unicode 3.2 or later compliant system and
application.

He also prepared:
Aynu (romanization):
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak_ainu_latin.txt
Aynu (kana):
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak_ainu_kana.txt
Esperanto:
http://sapporo.cool.ne.jp/kumanesir/kana_utf-8/AT33_cakcak_esp.txt

Please feel free to use and process them as you like.
When you upload them to a page on the Web, please tell us.
If we find anything wrong on the page, we will tell you.

Best Regards,
khirano

PS: You can find some info about me and Hiroyuki Yokoyama here:
http://www.openoffice.org/editorial/aynu_team.html

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Introduction

Irankarapte, Kazunari!

Here's my official welcome to the List and to its speakers corner, also my
thanks to you, Yokoyama-sensei and his colleagues.

I will post both versions to the anniversary presentations today.

The Esperanto one is the second one we have, which is fine, since having
alternative versions is always a good thing.

I've posted the Aynu (Ainu) version in Roman script already and will post
the one in Katakana today.  There is a small problem, though, in that some
Aynu-specific letters don't show in any Unicode-compatible fonts I have.
However, I think I can solve this by using smaller-font ? ru, ? ku, etc.

Again, welcome among us, also to Hiroyuki Yokoyama in extension!  I am sure
that many of our other members, being interested in minority languages, are
happy about your efforts to help the Aynu language of Japan and Siberia by
bringing it into the Internet.

Iyayiraykere! Suy unukaran ro!
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Here's a little non-Lowlandic treat for those interested: a snippet of
an Aynu song recorded a century ago by the famous Aynu specialist Bronis?aw
Piotr Pi?sudski: http://panda.bg.univ.gda.pl/ICRAP/ainu.mp3. It reminds me
so much of the songs our our indigenous peoples of the American Pacific
Northwest!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 00:45:48 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:45:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.16 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.16.APR.2005.174548.0700.>

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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]

Ron wrote:

>
>> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Idiomatica
>>
>> Ian wrote above about a Russian word:
>>
>> > ????? ('shtukV),
>>
>> Apparently it comes from German _St?ck_ 'piece', 'item'.
>>
Hello Ron,

the main meaning of exactly the same word "sztuka"  in Polish language
is HG "Kunst", E "art". But i have heard also "12 sztuk jaj", but may be
that is valid only in West Poland. When I lived in Poland (Pozna?), I
have learned that there are some words used in Western Poland but not
understand in other parts of Poland like "kartofle, halbka, sztanga,
lufcik i.t.d." because of their German origin.

Best regards
Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot, Utz!  That's very interesting.

Talking about such loans, and returning to the Lowlands, does anyone know of
a conveniently accessible list of Low Saxon (Low German) loans in Kashubian?
I know that papers have been presented on the topic, but so far I have seen
no publication myself.  By the way, these loans tend to be presented as
"German" in Poland, just as Low Saxon loans in Estonian (also
super-interesting!) are traditionally referred to as German.

Thanks.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 00:47:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:47:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.16 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.16.APR.2005.174711.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.16 (01) [E]

James' (mother's) "jossop" looks like modern Randstad Dutch 'jottum'.
The normal expression in colloquial Dutch is "dinges" for things and
people, and "dingetje" for people, whose name you just can't or don't
want to remember right now...
About "Wodyamacallit" - isn't that just from "what you MAY call it?" or
"what you MIGHT call it?" That would make more sense than "-ma-"
etc from "me"

Ingmar

>From: James Campbell <james at zolid.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (07) [E]
>
>>Compare 'jossop' (unspecified liquid) and 'clart' (unspecified gloop).
These
>were both inherited from my mother, a Northern lass by birth.
>
>James
>
>From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
>Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]
>
>Hi Gary,
>
>> are there parallels in other
>> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
>> doesn't really belong - or does it?
>
>In Limburgish it's quite common to ad 'me' near subject and verb, and to a
>lesser extent in Dutch.
>cfr 'Hij is me gisteren hier geweest'. 'Hoe noem je me dat?'
>It's called a 'dativus Graeccus', stating who 's concerned (if I remember
>well).
>Grammatically wodya'ma'callit does make sense.
>
>Hou je goed,

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 19:21:43 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:21:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.17 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.122143.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Hi, Gary,

You wrote:

> . are there parallels in other
> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
> doesn't really belong - or does it?

Yes- but not very often.
In LS we say: 'Loot mi de Fingern doorvan.'; HG: 'Lass mir die Finger
davon.'; E: 'Keep off your hands from that.' Or:
LS: 'Du b?st mi viellicht 'n feinen Fr?nnen!'; HG: 'Du bist mir ja ein
rechter Freund!'; E: 'You are _not_ a good friend of mine.'

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm


----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]

Hi everybody,

Dutch uses "dinges" in the same meaning. It is listed in Van Dale's Groot
Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal.
I remember hearing or reading in English the word "thingamajig".

Roger
>
> From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
>
> Hehe, true, it's a little bizarre when people talk that way, but I
> think cause and effect are a little mixed up here. People say that
> because they're too lazy to insert the actual entities they're
> discussing, but I don't think it's really affecting the language in any
> huge way. We have the same thing happening here in Canada, often. In
> fact I'd bet that most languages have some equivalent. In Russian it's
> ??? ????? ('EtV 'samojE) or ????? ('shtukV), in Spanish if I remember
> correctly it's "ese..." If that was being said frequently in Edinburgh
> as you say, I'd call it more of a cultural phenomenon with linguistic
> consequences, wouldn't you? Although I'll agree that with some speakers
> it affects the thought processes.
>
> Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
> Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?
>
> > I regard them and their ilk as such but then I am probably of a much
> > earlier generation than most of you folks. The most atrocious example
> > of all appears in Scots English, the ghastly 'Thingwy' which is used as
> > a substitute for any noun and is often used more than once in a
> > sentence..."Ah went tae thingwy's tae git a thingwy." was commonplace
> > in Working Class Edinburgh in my childhood. Like Orwellian Newspeak it
> > ultimately restricted the thought process and the vocabulary of the
> > users. Far from exclusive to the Working Class I even knew several
> > English academics who adopted it when resident in Scotland.
>
> ----------
>
> From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]
>
> Hi all,
>
> You were talking about, well, whadyacallem?  Doobris (no idea how to
> spell that word - rhymes with blueberries, when pronounced with two
> syllables).  Widgets.  Was hoofer-doofer ever one of these words? I seem
> to remember it was, but now it has the specific meaning of a television
> remote control.
>
> Unfortunately, nominal aphasia means I use a wide variety of these
> words.
>
> What are their Dutch equivalents.  I would find them very useful for
> such sentences as 'Does it have a .... whotsit - you know, little window
> that is in the roof of a house'
>
> Best wishes to all,
>
> Pat
> --
> Pat Reynolds
> pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
>    "It might look a bit messy now,
>                     but just you come back in 500 years time"
>    (T. Pratchett)
>
> ----------
>
> From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]
>
> > From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Lexicon
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > Ron, you said
> >
> > "Don't people in Australia use "thingy" in the same way, or was that
only
> > in
> > my circles?  I thought I heard it used in England as well."
> >
> > Yup, in England I've used thingy before, and thingmyjig, and thingmybob,
> > and
> > plain thingmy and
> > wodyacallit, and...
>
> All those are used here in the US too, although I'd spell them
differently:
>
> Thingamajig, thingamabob, thingamy, whatchamacallit, plus whatsit, whosit,
> whositwhatsit, gadget, doodad, doohickey, doololly, whatchamadoodle,
> whatsisname, whatsisface, and plain ol' thingy.  Probably a lot of others
> too, but I can't think of them right now, and individual speakers often
> create their own variations.
>
> There's even a brand of candy bar called Whatchamacallit.
>
> > From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
> > Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
> >
> > Only person I know who used that was from Durham.
> > Far as bloody Thingwy goes one Aussie friend uses it routinely but his
> > Dad was a Scots wheelwright who obviously brought it with him.
> > My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
> > hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'. I
> > notice US pollies have adopted this in recent years.
>
> Oh, Americans have been using that for decades when they are trying to
sound
> formal.
>
> The one that grates on my ear these days is "Back in the day".  Back in
what
> day?  What happened to "Back in the old days" or "Back when I was young"?
>
> Kevin Caldwell
>
> ----------
>
> From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.14 (12) [E]
>
>
> "At this point in time."  A pet peeve of mine, also.  I remember it being
> popularized in politics and news reporting during the Nixon/Watergate era
> and considered it a part of the general air of obfuscation rampant then.
It
> spread to the general public here in the States and was quite common by
the
> late 70's - still is, unfortunately.  Sets my teeth on edge every time.
>
> According to http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/
> This redundancy became popular because it was used by astronauts seeking
to
> distinguish precisely between a point in time and a point in space. Since
> most people use the expression in contexts where there is no ambiguity, it
> makes more sense to say simply ?at this point? or ?at this time.?
>
>   From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
>   Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.14 (01) [E]
>
>   My major hatred here is the ridiculous 'At this point in time'. Why the
>   hell can't they just say something like 'Currently' or even 'Now'.
> ----------
>
> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Me again...
>
> So with regards to our Ron saying 'whatyamacallit'
>
> an additional question to my last etymological one(and
> probably a more interesting one is) where did this
> 'me/my/mi/ma" etc. come from - grammatically it
> doesn't make a lot of sense when saying thing'my'jig,
> wodya'ma'callit etc... are there parallels in other
> lowland languages using a personal pronoun where it
> doesn't really belong - or does it? - I'm willing to
> be proved wrong
>
> Gary
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Ian wrote above about a Russian word:
>
> > ????? ('shtukV),
>
> Apparently it comes from German _St?ck_ 'piece', 'item'.
>
> > Incidentally, a synonym of "thingy" in my dialect (Calgary, Alberta,
> > Canada) is "dealie." Do any other dialects have this word?
>
> I've heard my Canadian relatives (in Southern Alberta, who also lived in
> Calgary until recently) use this.  It struck me as only a slightly strange
> the first time I heard it, but it was immediately understandable,
> reminiscent of "dealibob," another such term used in the U.S.
>
> Great to hear from our ... Whatyamacaller ... Pat above.  Hope things are
> going well for you, Pat.
>
> > Unfortunately, nominal aphasia means I use a wide variety of these
> > words.
>
> I confess that that makes at least two of us.  I know our Tom would just
> stomp out in utter disgust if he had to listen to the two of us.
>
> Interesting etymological question there, Gary.  I suspect "my" to have
> slipped in there for some reason.
>
> By the way, thanks for the congratulations, Gary.  (I forgot to say it
last
> night because I was in a rush.)  The sight of those very ancient Ukrainian
> ladies holding miniscule American flags was an unexpected bonus, as was
the
> jolly company of my little "sub-possy" (from Canada, Italy, Ethiopia,
> Ukraine, Vietnam, Germany, Argentina, England, Bangladesh and Israel)
during
> the long waits.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 19:25:02 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:25:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.17 (02) [E/French]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.122502.0700.>

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From: Cr??ost??ir ?? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.15 (05) [E]


Ingmar wrote:
"Btw, I suppose your friends from A'foort will be both Dutch, Frisians are
Dutch too you know, Friesland is just a Dutch province... I can't say that
my wife Barbara is Dutch and I'm Low Saxon, because the Brabant dialects are
categorized under Dutch and Low Saxon is recognized as a seperate
language... No, we both have the Dutch nationality and ethnicity."

I am merely using the labels with which they refer to themselves. The
husband is from Amersfoort, but the wife is from Drachten in Fryslan proper.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost??ir.

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Place names

La Voix du Nord started totay with a weekly etymological clarification of
place namens in French Flanders.
Below: the first article.
FYI,
Regards,
Roger

----
Actualit?? / Hazebrouck / Page 1 / Article 2
Edition du Dimanche 17 Avril 2005

D'Arn??ke ?  Borre
Les noms des communes de Flandre int??rieure (1)

Aujourd'hui, nous entamons une s??rie d'articles au travers desquels nous
aborderons, chaque dimanche, l'origine des noms de communes de Flandre
int??rieure. Pour ce travail, qui sera pr??sent?? par ordre alphab??tique, de
nombreuses sources ont ??t?? consult??es, au premier rang desquelles Les Noms
de nos villages de Flandre, d'Albert Deveyer, et, surtout, ??tudes sur les
noms des villes, bourgs et villages du d??partement du Nord , d'Eug??ne
Mannier.
L'objet de cette s??rie n'est pas d'imposer un point de vue d??finitif mais
plut??t d'??voquer les principales pistes donn??es par les historiens. De toute
fa??on, comme on le verra, il y a dans ce domaine beaucoup plus de questions
que de r??ponses irr??futables.

Arn??ke. - Certains ont vu dans ce nom une r??f??rence ?  un ch??ne (eek en
flamand) aux aigles ou alors ?  un ch??ne sec ( aren pourrait ??voquer ces deux
notions). Il s'agit plus certainement d'un mot d'origine gallo-romaine
(Rentiacum) signifiant propri??t?? d'un certain Rentius.

Bailleul. - Beaucoup d'hypoth??ses ont ??t?? avanc??es. Ainsi, Bailleul pourrait
venir d'un mot celtique (bala, signifiant source, ou bali, all??e d'arbres
conduisant ?  une habitation); d'un nom d'homme (Balius ou Belem); du latin
balliolum (enclos fortifi??, barricade) ou belgiolum (colonie de Belges); du
gaulois bal ou bel (hauteur); du flamand balie (barri??re).

Bavinchove. - Il s'agit ici d'une ferme ou d'un enclos (hove) appartenant ?
un nomm?? Bavo ou Bavon. Eug??ne Mannier ??voque aussi la possibilit?? de
l'existence ?  cet endroit d'une ferme qui versait une d??me au monast??re
Saint-Bavon de Gand.

Berthen. - Le suffixe hen est probablement une d??formation de hem, un terme
que l'on retrouvera r??guli??rement au fil de cette s??rie et qui signifiait,
chez les Francs, foyer anim?? par un chef. Berthen serait ainsi la demeure d'
un certain Berto ou Bertin.

Blaringhem. - Ce village a pour origine l'habitation (hem) des descendants
(ing) d'un chef nomm??, selon les sources, Blathar, Blado, Blara, Bladahari,
Blerick, Bladeric ou Baudry.

Boesch??pe. - Le mot bosch signifie bois, en flamand. Quant ?  schep ou
schaap, les auteurs le traduisent par mouton ou par source. Boesch??pe serait
ainsi la bergerie ou la source du bois. ?? moins que, comme ne l'??crit Albert
Deveyer, il ne s'agisse d'une source pr??s de laquelle se serait install?? un
chef nomm?? Bodo ou Boso.

Bo??seghem. - Ici, aucun doute: Bo??seghem est la demeure (hem) du chef Boso
ou Boson.

Borre. - Ce village doit son nom ?  sa situation pr??s d'un cours d'eau.
Eug??ne Mannier le d??compose en deux termes celtiques, bor (bord) et re
(rivi??re). Albert Deveyer, lui, ??voque la racine born qui nous vient du Nord
et qui peut se traduire par source ou fontaine. Le cours d'eau qui passe ?
Borre s'appelle la Borre Becque. Il prend naissance ?  Lynde et, en
descendant vers Merville et la Lys, on l'appelle la Bourre.

J.-P.V.
(?  suivre)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 20:14:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:14:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.131422.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.16 (03) [E]


Ron wrote: "...By the way, these loans tend to be presented as
"German" in Poland, just as Low Saxon loans in Estonian (also
super-interesting!) are traditionally referred to as German."

Interestingly, when I visited Finland a year or so back, looking through my
phrase book I noticed that the Finnish for "German" is "Saksaa"...

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Paul (above_:

> Interestingly, when I visited Finland a year or so back, looking through
> my phrase book I noticed that the Finnish for "German" is "Saksaa"...

Indeed, or rather _Saksa_ for the country and _saksalainen_ (pl.
_saksalaiset_) for the people, similarly Estonian _Saksamaa_ ("German+land")
for the country and _saksalane_ (pl. _saksalased_) or _Saksa_ for the
people.

People tended to name the non-Scandinavian Germanic peoples by generalizing
the names of the people with which they had contacts.  Hence non-Italian
Romance names for Germany and Germans being based on Allemanns (e.g., French
_Allemagne_, _allemand_, Catalan _Alemanya_, _alemany_, Castilian
_Alemania_, _alem?n_, Portuguese _Alemanha_, _alem?o_).

However, probably artificially, Finnish and Estonian later came to
distinguish "Germany" from "Saxony": Finnish _Saksi_, Estonian _Saksimaa_,
and "Saxon": Finnish _saksilainen_ (pl. _saksilaiset_), Estonian _saks(i)_,
_saksilane_ (pl. _saksilased_).  All it took was changing one vowel.  (I
don't know if the average speaker of these languages makes mental
connections between these.) And _German(ic)_ required the creation of
another loanword: Finnish _germaaninen_, Estonian _germaani_.

Similarly, Romance languages created words for "Allemannic" (e.g., French
_al?manique_, Castilian _alem?nico_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 20:18:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:18:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.17 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.131823.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Events + Resources

Presentation of a new CD with songs in West-Flemish was announced in the
"Westvlams" list. (cf. below)
Regards,
Roger
PS. See also URL: http://www.vintekoor.be with texts of the first two CDs.
----
Groot openluchtconcert op zondag 15 mei 2005 op het Pieter Aernoudtplein te
Bovekerke
't Westvlams Gemiengeld Vintekoor
stelt voor: de nieuwe full-cd "Gif mo slunse !"
gratis optredens van het koor om 14u - 15u30 en 17u
Ter gelegenheid van de lancering wordt de nieuwe cd op 15 mei te koop
aangeboden aan de speciale "fanprijs" van ? 14 ipv ? 16.
Doorlopend openluchtterras met alle nodige natjes en droogjes.
Tijdens de pauzes telkens een bruisend optreden van
"The Fourstreet Dancers", telkens voorafgegaan door de nu reeds traditionele
"rattenworpen"  met honderden gratis prijzen....
gratis toegang tot het plein voor iedereen.
Bij slecht weer gaat alles door in de nabijgelegen gemeenschapszaal "d' Oude
Schole".

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 23:21:34 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:21:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.162134.0700.>

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From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (03) [E]

You may be interested to know that the Russian word for a German is
????? ('njEmIts), which literally means "mute person". This is because,
of course, they couldn't speak the local languages of Slavic countries.
If you don't speak our language, you must be mute.
The only exception to this rule I know of is the word for Germany
itself - ???????? (gjErm'anijV), although I'm not sure that holds true
through all the Slavic languages. As I recall Ukrainian has a word
related to ?????? for the country as well.
-Ian Pollock

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (03) [E]

Lieve Leeglanners,

Ron spoke of generalizing other ethnic groups. Reminds
me of the Russian word _nemetz_ for German; literally,
_not of us_. In a way, I felt like that about the US
Admiral Chester NIMITZ.
Grueten,
Arthur

Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners,
(English below)

miin Woord van vandoog is:

LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'H?ndin, E: 'bitch'.

Ditt Woord waard ook ne meer foken bruukt, in miin Tiid as Jungkeerl hevvt
wi 't noch goud kennt.

In miin etymoloog'sch W??rb?kers (Oul-Sassisch, Oul-Frees'sch, Oul-Ingelsch)
steit dor heel nix ?ver, obschounst ick gl??v, wat door wat tohaup hangen
kunn mit dat Ingelsche E: 'tiff', HG: 'kleine Meinungsverschiedenheit'.

Is dat an dennen Innen van Franz??s'schen  Orsprong?

***

Dear Lowland-folk,

my today's word is:

LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'H?ndin, E: 'bitch'.

We don't use this word often in our times, but I still know it well from my
teen-ages.

I can't discover itself and the family in my etymological lexica, as there
are Old-Saxon, Old-Frisian and Old-English, though I found E: 'tiff' in the
meaning of HG: 'kleine Meinungsverschiedenheit'. There is a slight
(halfpennie-worth; is it still in use??) idea they could relate.

Is it of French origin at last?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ian (above):

> The only exception to this rule I know of is the word for Germany
> itself - ???????? (gjErm'anijV), although I'm not sure that holds true
> through all the Slavic languages. As I recall Ukrainian has a word
> related to ?????? for the country as well.

So Russian makes a difference between the ethnicity/language and the
country: adjectival "German": ???????? _nemeckij_ (ethnic/linguistic) vs
?????????? _germanskij_ (pertaining to the country).  I've always preferred
this from a diversity point of view.

Ukrainian: ????????? _nimec'kyj_ vs ??????????? _herman'skyj_, country:
??????i? ~
?????????  _Hermanija_ ~ _Nime??yna_

Belarusian: adjective: ??????? _njame?ki_, country: ????????? _Njame??yna

Polish: adjective: _niemiecki_, country: _Niemcy_

Czech: adjective: _n?meck?_, country:  _N?mecka_


Upper Sorbian: adjective: adjective: _ n?mski_, language: _n?m?ina_, person:
_n?mc_ (pl.) _n?mcy_), country: _N?mska_ ~ _N?mskeje_, regions: N?mcy

Jonny (above):

> LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'H?ndin, E: 'bitch'.

Oh, man, Jonny!  Dat is maal wedder 'n radel!

De etymologen weett niks vun de afkumst vun Ingelsch _tiff_ af, ook niks vun
_snit_ 'vuynsch-syn_, _muksch-syn_.

The origin of English "tiff" appears to be obscure, as is that of "snit."

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 17 23:44:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:44:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.164440.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Anniversary

Dear Lowlanders,

The moment has arrived: Lowlands-L is 10 years old now, and we are revealing
our anniversary party project (at least to those of you who have not been
naughty peepers).

You can reach the presentation by either going to our homepage
(http://www.lowlands-l.net) and clicking on the anniversary button or by
going directly to http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/.

Obviously, the project isn't quite finished, though it seems presentable and
Mathieu, Henry and I have been working very hard on it (at a time when we
were particularly busy with other things), as have been a few of you who
have gone beyond the call.  Thanks to everyone who has helped with this so
far.  You can find a list of them under "About this site" and "The Project
Team".)

Several sound files are still to come, especially those that Henry is having
to make from cassette recordings.  Also, I haven't gotten around to making
my own sound recordings, have either been too busy or suffering from spring
allergies.  So, please keep participating in the creation of this resource.

The presentation will remain as a party that will end only when the last
guest has left.  So it is an ongoing project.  Please bear this in mind, and
keep helping us with it.

Short of spewing sentimental drivel, there is nothing I could or should add
to what I already say under "How it began" and "Reflections" (both under
"What is Lowlands-L?") as well as in my personal introduction (under "What
is Lowlands-L?" and "People"), except "Thanks to each and everyone of you
for your enthusiasm, support and friendship all these years!"

Yours on behalf of the administrative and anniversary project team,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 18 04:07:58 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:07:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.210758.0700.>

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi everyone.

Jonny, you wrote:

"LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'H?ndin, E: 'bitch'.

We don't use this word often in our times, but I still know it well from my
teen-ages."

Could this be at all related somewhat obscurely to Middle Saxon 'tike' also
meaning bitch coming from Germanic tik??

"though I found E: 'tiff' in the meaning of HG: 'kleine
Meinungsverschiedenheit'. There
is a slight (halfpennie-worth; is it still in use??) idea they could
relate."

The halfpenny has sadly passed away, although the phrase lives on, albeit a
bit dated. Or did you mean the word 'tiff' which is very much alive, and is
also in such phrases as 'He's in a tiff', or 'She's having a tiff' meaning
they're in a bad mood. My etymology states for English tiff 18th Century
obscure.

Gary

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> People tended to name the non-Scandinavian Germanic peoples by
generalizing
> the names of the people with which they had contacts.

This still happened recently. In my Limburgish we still use "Pruis" for
"German" etc.

Rhenania (Rheinland) became Prussian in 1815 (till 1918). The term
"Prussian" was extended to all Germans in our local dialect.

Regards,

Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Roger,

Doesn't the "Prussian" thing apply to practically all Limburgish, Low
Franconian and Low Saxon varieties of Belgium and the Netherlands near the
German border?

Incidentally, the original name _Pruyss_ (<Pr??>) [pry:s] 'Prussian' and
related words came to be replaced by the German loan _Preu?(e)_ [prOIs(e)]
in most Low Saxon dialects of Germany, also _Oost-Pruyssen_ (<Oostpr??en>)
giving way to German-based _Ostpreu?en_ 'Eastern Prussia'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 18 04:11:36 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:11:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.17.APR.2005.211136.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]

Leeve Laaglanners,

Ron wrote,

>suffering from spring allergies

...as an excuse for not having finished his sound recordings for the
Anniversary site.
But aren't spring allergies a basic part of your phonetic system? And isn't
that one of the strongest links to Phlegmish?  ;-)

Ja, ik ben gek.

Arthur

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Arthur,

Sure!  I'd take Phlegmish over Phlegmatish any day, but it sure ain't no
pretty picture.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 18 15:07:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:07:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.18.APR.2005.080730.0700.>

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From: Arend Victorie <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Etymology


Moi Jonny,

Bi'j oonz in Drenthe kent wi'j dat woord as Teef, Teve.
Name van een vrouwgieshond. Maor 't wurdt ok as schimpwoord veur sommigen
van 't vrouwelijk geslacht bruukt.

In mien Nederlaans etymologisch woordenboek stiet 't as volgt.
Teef, (Middelnederlaans) 1240 t?ue. (Middelnederduuts) 1227 t?ve.
(Oldengels) tife.

(Hoogduutsdialect) ziwwe. (Noordfries) teww.



Goodgaon,

Arend Victorie.


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Arend, Leyglanders,

"Teev'" [te:.v] wardt ook in welke Neddersassischen dialekten up de Duytsche
syd' bruukt, hyr un daar ook noch old "teve" ['te:ve], meyrtal "teven"
['te:v=m].  "Tif" [tIf] (meyrtal "tiffen" ['tIf=m]) is begenglich in de
dialekten, dey geyrn verk?rten dout un d'n sleeptoon verlaren hebt.

In welke dialekten is ook "tsip" [(t)sIp] (meyrtal "tsippen" ['(t)sIp=m])
<Zipp(en)> begenglich.  Dat mutt 'n leenwoord vun "Middel-"Duytsche
dialekten syn, dat mit d?sse woyrd' verwandt is, wyl dat al or de meyrsten
woyrd' mit "ts-" vun annere spraken af-koymen, tou meyrst vun 't Duytsche
(so as _tsop_ neven _top_ 'hair braid'), un 'n paar koymen vun 't Latynsche
af, sachs oever 't Duytsche, so as "tsippel" (onion) < _Zippel_ (~
_Zwiebel_) < _c?pul(l)a_ < _c?pa_.  Anners schul wat in 't Duytsche /ts-/
(<z->) is in 't Neddersassische /t-/ syn.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 18 15:40:47 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:40:47 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.18 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.18.APR.2005.084047.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]

Great, geweldig, groot-ardig, alderbarstend mooi man, Hiep Hiep Hoera!

Only one thingwy: I can't find the A-site anymore through typing
"lowlands-l" + "anniversary". Until a week or so ago that was the way to
find it when I was not at home. But now Google doesn't react at anything,
I just get shtuff like "Learn Dutch on line" etc... Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
>Subject: Anniversary
>
>Dear Lowlanders,
>
>The moment has arrived: Lowlands-L is 10 years old now, and we are
revealing
>our anniversary party project (at least to those of you who have not been
>naughty peepers).
>
>You can reach the presentation by either going to our homepage
>(http://www.lowlands-l.net) and clicking on the anniversary button or by
>going directly to http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/.

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]

Arthur wrote:
> >suffering from spring allergies
>
> ...as an excuse for not having finished his sound recordings for the
> Anniversary site.
> But aren't spring allergies a basic part of your phonetic system? And
isn't
> that one of the strongest links to Phlegmish?  ;-)

How come you get away with this (ouch, that's a baaad one!) without being
relegated to la galerie de cacahu?tes??

> Ja, ik ben gek.

Nee, ik ben GEK!
Gabriele E. Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Ingmar (above):

> Only one thingwy: I can't find the A-site anymore through typing
> "lowlands-l" + "anniversary". Until a week or so ago that was the way to
> find it when I was not at home. But now Google doesn't react at anything,
> I just get shtuff like "Learn Dutch on line" etc... Ingmar

I don't know why this is.  Perhaps it is a reaction to me having linked to
it from the LL-L pages, which is in the root directory.  Search engines tend
to take a few days to catch up, anyway.

> How come you get away with this (ouch, that's a baaad one!) without being
> relegated to la galerie de cacahu?tes??

I beg your pardon?!  Fair go!  I *never* relegate anyone to it!  People
occasionally opt for the cheaper seats and start playing the part, some more
often than others.  Especially when he's in a party mood, Arthur
occasionally just feels like being in the presence of _sa majest?, la reine
de la galerie des cacahu?tes_ herself.  He would say so himself if he knew
how to say "peanut gallery" in Gothic.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 00:09:43 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:09:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.18.APR.2005.170943.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (05) [E/LS]

Leeve Reinhard un'Gary,

Ji schreeven:

> LS: *Tiff*, HG: 'H?ndin, E: 'bitch'.

> Oh, man, Jonny!  Dat is maal wedder 'n radel!

un' Gary:

> Could this be at all related somewhat obscurely to Middle Saxon 'tike'
> also
> meaning bitch coming from Germanic tik??

Weest bedankt f??r Jaun M?h, ook wenn mi dat al ne sou recht wiider holpen
hett. Schiint jo een oosig Woord tou ween, wat mi door inne M??t komen is.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

---------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (01) [E]

Daag, Arend,

Du schreevst (according to "Tiff"):

> Bi'j oonz in Drenthe kent wi'j dat woord as Teef, Teve.
> Name van een vrouwgieshond. Maor 't wurdt ok as schimpwoord veur sommigen
> van 't vrouwelijk geslacht bruukt.
>
> In mien Nederlaans etymologisch woordenboek stiet 't as volgt.
> Teef, (Middelnederlaans) 1240 t?ue. (Middelnederduuts) 1227 t?ve.
> (Oldengels) tife.
>
Wees bedankt! Dat het holpen.

> (Hoogduutsdialect) ziwwe. (Noordfries) teww.
Un' hier hevvt wi denen Betog funnen to dat Woord HG: 'Zippe', ook bruukt
f?r wiivlich' Deeren, as Kanin, Teeg, Schoopen [heet ook 'Jitten',hier]....

Best' Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners, Reinhard,
(English below)

vandoog nu obers 'n Woord, door weet wi allerhand van, man- an dennen Innen
sitt dor ook weller 'n l?tten D?vel binnen.

LS: *Tofalsteen*, ook *Tafelsteen*,  HG:'W?rfel', E: 'dice'.

In de etymoloogschen W??rb?kers finn ick:

Old Saxon: 'tafalsteen' HG: 'W?rfel', E: 'dice';
Old Frisian: 'tofalla', HG:'zufallen', E:'fall to...',;
Old English: 'tabele', HG: 'Brettspiel', E:'board game';
Old High German: 'zabalstein' HG: 'W?rfel', E: 'dice';
Old High German: 'zabalon' HG: 'zappeln,', E: 'to struggle, wriggle'.

Waard dat in anner Lowlann'sche Sprooken ook sou bruukt?
Welk nedderd??tsche Etymologen meent, dat m?ss 'Tafelsteen' schreeven
waar'n, wieldes dat Woord van lat. 'tabula' herkeem.
Ick denk, 'Tofal[l]steen' weer beter; hangt mit dennen 'Tofall', HG:
'Zufall', E: 'accident','chance' tohaup.
Or m?ss dat an dennen Innen 'Zappelsteen' ween?

Sou- nu ist 't naug; anners waard door noch 'n 'Sabbelsteen'
('gossip-stone')van! ;-)

***

Dear Lowlanders, Reinhard,

about my today's word we know a lot- but a little devil could have hidden
inside, too.

LS: *Tofalsteen*, ook *Tafelsteen*,  HG:'W?rfel', E: 'dice'.

In the etymological dictionaries I find:

Old Saxon: 'tafalsteen' HG: 'W?rfel', E: 'dice';
Old Frisian: 'tofalla', HG:'zufallen', E:'fall to...';
Old English: 'tabele', HG: 'Brettspiel', E:'board game';
Old High German: 'zabalstein' HG: 'W?rfel', E: 'dice';
Old High German: 'zabalon' HG: 'zappeln,', E: 'to struggle, wriggle'.

Is it used and known in other Lowlandic-languages?
Some Low-Saxon etymologists think, it should be written 'Tafelsteen',
because it's related to lat. 'tabula'.
I'd prefer 'Tofal[l]steen', because I guess it to be cognate with 'Tofall',
HG: 'Zufall', E: 'accident','chance'.
Or should 'Zappelsteen' be best at the end?

I have to stop now- otherwise it could become a 'Sabbelsteen'
('gossip-stone') at last! ;-)

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]

Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I have only heard it in
two words:  hillock and bullock. In hillock, it sounds like a diminutive. A
bullock is a baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?
Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

[English below]

Tja, leyve Jonny. Dayt my leyd, dat ik Dyn seypen-blaas' tou 't barsten
bringen mut.  Dat is 'n val vun _sch?n w?r's_.  In 't Old-Sassische is dat
_t?falst?n_.  _T?fla_ beduydt in dey spraak nich "disch" (dat is _biod_ or
_disk_); dat beduydt _speelbreed_ or _w?rpel-breed_, un dat gayt schynt up
Latynsch _tabula_ tr?g.  'n W?rpel al-gemeyn is in 't Old-Sassische _wurpil_
(mit _werp_ 'Wurf' verwandt).  'n W?rpel-speler is 'n _t?fl?ri_.

Sorry I had to burst our Jonny's bubble. Old Saxon _t?falst?n_ 'dice'
(containing the word for 'stone') has nothing to do with "accident" or
"coincident" (Modern Low Saxon _tou-val_).  It comes from _t?fla_ (< Latin
_tabula_), which in Old Saxon does not mean 'table' (which would be _biod_
or _disk_) but 'game board'. A dice player is a _t?fl?ri_ ("tabler"), and
'dice' generally is _wurpil_ (related to the verb for 'cast', cf. German
_Wurf_ and Old English _weorp_ 'throw', 'cast' [nominal]); cf. Modern Low
Saxon _w?rpel_ and Modern German _W?rfel_.

And the plot thickens:

Old English has _t?fl_ meaning both 'dice' and 'game of dice'.  If you are
good and quick at throwing dice you are _hr?dt?fle_ in Old English, from
_hr?d_ 'in a hurry'.

I don't know what the Old Saxon word for 'accident' or 'coincident' is.
Does anyone else?

The Old Saxon word for 'to kick', 'to jiggle', etc. (German _zappeln_) is
_spartal?n_, hence the ancestor of Modern Low Saxon _sparteln_ ~ _spatteln_
~ _spaddeln_ with the same meaning, perhaps related to Old English
_spearnlian_ ~ _spr?awlian_ with the same meaning.

Another interesting Old Saxon word: _?lm?ri_ ("all sea") 'Zuiderzee'.  What
is it in Old Low Franconian and Old Frisian?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 01:21:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:21:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.18 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.18.APR.2005.182141.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]

Hey, if you speak Portuguese or a West African language, then that is not an
excuse, as you need your nose for all those nasal vowels. Tenta de novo. N?o
tens nenhum problema!

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.18 (02) [E]

Liobothi Dalathlandarjes!

So the Anniversary Party kabouters have already started celebrating!

Gabriele, I didn't know you had a trade mark on "GEK", although I suppose
it's no coincidence. After all, it takes lots of "elan(d)" to be a Global
Moose. Imagine eing sentenced to a life of "cerf"-dom!

As to "galerie de cacahuetes", I still can't see what
 French department store has to do with it. ;-)
As to Gothic, I doubt that they would have flown
commercial class on Lufthansa, ergo keine Erdnuesse.
Still, we could call your Peanut Gallery the
_gamainjo-stols_ , usually reserved for those Goths
who made rude noises of a digestive nature during
solemn ceremonies, such as beheading of Roman
soldiers, etc.

Happy Anniversary, Ron and all! Your combined
contributions to the preservation --and the
liveliness-- of Lowlands Germanic tongues have earned
huge rounds of applause. Minority languages are among
the most basic and essential of human rights: The
right to an identity.

And to those who would rob us of our identities, a
Goth would have said: "Ogs! Ogs mikils!" (Be Afraid!
Be very  afraid!).

Arthur

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Ar?urs unsar (her iupa):

> Happy Anniversary, Ron and all!

And Happy Anniversary to you, an aw, Arthur an Robin!  And thanks for being
such a good sport, Arthur!

> So the Anniversary Party kabouters have already started celebrating!

Indeed they have.  Party hats are being handed out as we speak.  There's
nothing wrong with some celebratory fun, frolic and frivolity after ten
years.

Being skilled in legal protection (in case the neighbors call the militia on
us) as well as being skilled in the not so rare art of painful puns, you
might do us the honor of acting as the _fr?ols b?aggiefa_ (which is my own
Old English equivalent of _master of ceremony_, literally "shindig's bigwig"
in ger?de N?-Englisc), or, since you are our resident Gothophiliac,
_gaba?rfa?ra?maleis_.

I am sure that _Sa Majest?_ will graciously open her throne room to the
throngs of common revelers for the occasion.  _Gamainjo-stols_ they may be,
the cheap seats of the peanut gallery.  In Low Saxon, being that it is
relegated to the rurally rough and rugged, _ruge boen_ (['ru:ge b?:n] "rough
loft" = 'hayloft') springs to mind.

I would like to thank all of you who contributed sound files to the
anniversary project so far.  They are all terrific, and I detected much
theatrical talent in our midst.

I am surprised no one has so far commented on our Dave Singleton's Southern
Yorkshire/Derbyshire English translation and narration.  (It reads and
sounds just grand, Dave!)  There seems to be quite a bit of material there
for those of you interested in American English, including Appalachian.

Thanks also to those of you who have written to me privately in response to
the unveiling.

As you were!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 14:33:20 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:33:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.19 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.073320.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: Anniversary

Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]

Great, geweldig, groot-ardig, alderbarstend mooi man, Hiep Hiep Hoera!

Only one thingwy:

GRRRRR ! Pray God I have niot started an epidemic spreading this of all
words. :-)
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Lexicon

'Fraid you may have, Tom.  While you thought you were talking about lexical
impoverishment you were inadvertently enriching certain people's lexicon.
Hard to stop it now.

Sorry.

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 14:37:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:37:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.19 (02) [German]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.073722.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Delectables

Liebe Lowl?nder,

dieses Rezept erhielt ich heute per Fax von einem Kollegen:

Gourmet-Rezept f?r Truthahn mit Whiskey

Man kaufe einen Truthahn von 5 kg (f?r 6 Personen) und eine Flasche Whiskey.
Dazu Salz, Pfeffer, Oliven?l und Speckstreifen.

Truthahn salzen, pfeffern, mit Speckstreifen belegen, schn?ren und etwas
Oliven?l hinzugeben. Ofen auf 200? vorheizen, dann ein Glas Whiskey auf
gutes Gelingen trinken. Anschlie?end den Truthahn auf einem Backblech in den
Ofen schieben. Nun schenke man sich zwei schnelle Gl?ser Whiskey ein und
trinke nochmals auf gutes Gelingen.

Nach 20 Minuten den Thermostat auf 250 ? stellen, damit es ordentlich
brummt. Danach schenkt man sich drei Whiskey ein.

Nach ner halm Schdunde ?ffnen, wenden un den Braten ?berwachen, Die
Fisskieflasche nehmen unn sich ein hinner de Bindse kippn.

Nach ,ner albernen Schdunnnde langsam zzum Ofen hinschlendern unn die
truterumwnden.
Darauf achtn, mer sich nicht die Hand verbrenn an der Schaiss-Ohfnd?r. Sich
waidere ffpnff odda siebn Wixki innem Glas sich unn dann unn so.

D' Drute drrai Sinn't (iss auch egal!) waiderbraan unn all ?ehn Minud'n
pinkeln.
Wenn ?erntwi m?chlisch, ?umm Trathuhn hinkrieschn unn den Ohwn aus'm Viech
ziehn.

Noch mal n Schlugg geneemig un anschliessen wida f?suchn, das Biest
raussugrieng. Den fedammt'n Vorel vom Boden aufflese un auff'ner Bladde
hinrichten. Auffbasse, dass d nich ausrutschn auff'm schai?fettichn
K?chnbodn. Wenn s sich dro?dem nich fameidn l?ss, fesuhn wida
auf?uschichtnodersohahaidallesjaaeeehschei?egaaal!!!!

Bissnschlafn.

Am n?chsten Tag den Truthahn mit Mayonaise und Aspirin kalt essen.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 14:44:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:44:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (03) [A/E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.074407.0700.>

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From: embryomystic at cogeco.ca <embryomystic at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

Ben Bloomgren wrote:
> Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I
> have only heard it in two words:  hillock and bullock.
> In hillock, it sounds like a diminutive. A bullock is a
> baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?

I don't know whether this is the origin of the endings on hillock and
bullock, but Scots has a diminutive ending -ock.
It comes from the Gaelic -ag (the final consonant is unvoiced, I'm told),
which is also a diminutive, cognate to Irish -?g. It's used in Scots quite
productively, I understand, and sometimes paired with the other
diminutive, -ie, to produce -ockie.

Regards,

Isaac M. Davis

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Etymology" 2005.04.18 (01) [A]

Dag julle,

In Afrikaans is 'teef/tewe' ook 'n wyfiehond, en gebruiklik as skeldnaam vir
'n veglustige vrou.

Ron, ek ken 'tjip' (betekenis: bemoeisiek of skinderbek) in Afrikaans maar
dis nie gebruiklik in Afrikaans nie, en ek dink dit kom van Oos-Kaapse
Engels.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

>Name van een vrouwgieshond. Maor 't wurdt ok as schimpwoord veur sommigen
van 't vrouwelijk geslacht bruukt.

In welke dialekten is ook "tsip" [(t)sIp] (meyrtal "tsippen" ['(t)sIp=m])
<Zipp(en)> begenglich.

---------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

> LS: *Tofalsteen*, ook *Tafelsteen*,  HG:'W?rfel', E: 'dice'.
>
> In de etymoloogschen W??rb?kers finn ick:
>
> Old Saxon: 'tafalsteen' HG: 'W?rfel', E: 'dice';
> Old Frisian: 'tofalla', HG:'zufallen', E:'fall to...',;
> Old English: 'tabele', HG: 'Brettspiel', E:'board game';
> Old High German: 'zabalstein' HG: 'W?rfel', E: 'dice';
> Old High German: 'zabalon' HG: 'zappeln,', E: 'to struggle, wriggle'.
>
> Waard dat in anner Lowlann'sche Sprooken ook sou bruukt?

But of course. The Dutch word for a die (pl. dice) is "dobbelsteen".

Anything to keep you happy, Jonny... ;-)
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (07) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> People tended to name the non-Scandinavian Germanic peoples by
generalizing
> the names of the people with which they had contacts.<

See also Amish:

"You be careful out among the English"  from the film Witness : this must
be one of the best quoted sentences from any modern film, spoken by the
Amish farmer, Jakob

Heather

PS Still trying to follow up on the recent comment that the relationship
between Italo-celtic languages has been debunked. All the recent books I
have checked so far are still referring to it. Could I have some direction
in which to look for the 'debunkers'. I found a very emotional web forum
where a member was using DNA results ( unproven?) to link all sorts of
unlikely countries/peoples and thereby proving ( so he said) that the
accepted IE family history was twaddle. UNfortunately he made the mistake
of thinking that a  single langugae would restrict its use to a single DNA
group.... which of course it doesn't and probably never has except
millions/hundreds of thousands of years ago.

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I have only heard it in
two words:  hillock and bullock. In hillock, it sounds like a diminutive. A
bullock is a baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?
Ben<

It is as you suggested a diminutive and there are many more than one
expects:  paddock   hassock   mattock   dunnock ( bird)   tussock -  not
forgetting 'small balls' !
OED gives it as Old English  -oc  or -uc

Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 17:21:56 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:21:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.102156.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.19 (02) [German]

For Jonny, It has finally become clear why I spent all this time to
"refamiliarize" myself with Lowland Saxon. Thanks for the recipe. I'll
have to try it one of these days with my favorite libation. Jacqueline

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 18:12:13 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:12:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (05) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.111213.0700.>

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From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

Dag Jonny,

> Welk nedderd??tsche Etymologen meent, dat m?ss 'Tafelsteen' schreeven
> waar'n, wieldes dat Woord van lat. 'tabula' herkeem.

Het Nederlandse 'dobbelsteen' zou  van het Lat. duplus (het dubbele) komen
(Ofrans doble). Misschien zijn ze verwant?
Groeten,

Jo Thys

----------

From: ?j??r?kr ?j??reksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]


>From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
>Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]
>
>Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I have only heard
>it in
>two words:  hillock and bullock. In hillock, it sounds like a
>diminutive. A
>bullock is a baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?
>Ben

It looks me related to (regional, dialectical) Dutch -ke(n), German -chen
which is also the diminutive. In standard Dutch it has generally developed
into -tje and its several variants (for example -pje, -je, ...)
In the older Germanic days the vowel was a long ?, still so in Middle Dutch:
een mannekijn, a little man (origin of the French word "mannequin")
It often triggers umlaut as well, I think always in German, and often in
eastern Dutch dialects. We in Antwerp say "e manneke", someone I know from
some few tens of kilometers to my east says "e menneke".
It always has the neuter grammatical gender (in both languages).

But I have no sources that tell me Old English has this ending? Maybe those
2 relict forms are the only ones left since the last 1500 years...? (or
otherwise I have to look better, I'll tell if I have result)

Diederik Masure

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

Diederik:

> It looks me related to (regional, dialectical) Dutch -ke(n), German -chen

Isaac:

> I don't know whether this is the origin of the endings on hillock and
> bullock, but Scots has a diminutive ending -ock.
> It comes from the Gaelic -ag (the final consonant is unvoiced, I'm told),
> which is also a diminutive, cognate to Irish -?g. It's used in Scots quite
> productively, I understand, and sometimes paired with the other
> diminutive, -ie, to produce -ockie.

Both of you may be on to something there, but probably on a very ancient
level.  Add to this Slavonic diminutive _-ek_, _-ak_, _-i_, _-yk_ and _-uk_.

This seems to correspond with Iranic diminutive _-ak_, _-uk_ (e.g., Balochi
_p?ruk_ 'grandfather' < _p?r_ 'old', hence "oldie") and _-ik_ (e.g., Balochi
_?anik(k)_ 'kid').

I assume that the Germanic suffixes Diederik mentions are suffix compounds
(something like *_-k-e(-n)_), just as in Slavonic you seem to get a lot of
permutations, even double diminutives, involving the _-k_ (* _-ik-'-ka_ >
_-i?ka_ etc.), and some of these came to be adopted by non-Indo-European
Hungarian.

The _-n_ part may be related to Celtic diminutive _-n_, _-an_, _-en_, _-yn_
(e.g., Welsh _edyf_ 'thread' -> diminutive _edefyn_, _carej_ 'carriage' ->
diminutive _carejen_ ~ _carejan_).

Our Andy writes about Scots:

"A northern diminutive suffix <ag> exists: The wee bairnag - The small
child."

(http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/nnscots.htm)

Also double diminutives as in _hooseockie_ (small house), _wifeockie_
(little woman) .

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 22:18:53 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:18:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.151853.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

We should ask Henry P. about this, because when I'm right he lives in a
town called Almere, situated in Flevoland, one of the polders in the
IJsselmeer, the former Zuiderzee (Suydersee). In the Netherlands, <Almere>
is usually translated as <great/big sea>. Whether that is Frisian or Dutch
I don't know. Friesland lies to the North East of the Zuiderzee, Low Saxon
speaking Overijssel and Guelders (Gelderland) to the East, and Noord-
Holland, including West-Friesland is West of it.

Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Ingmar.

Very interesting!  Unfortunately, there are some email problems between our
Henry and us at the moment.  I'll try to get the request to him another way.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: This is what I had written:
>  Another interesting Old Saxon word: _?lm?ri_ ("all sea") 'Zuiderzee'.
> What is it in Old Low Franconian and Old Frisian?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 19 22:22:34 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:22:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Call for papers" 2005.04.19 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.19.APR.2005.152234.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Call for papers

For everyone's attention.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From: "Editor, Journal of Germanic Mythology & Folkore" editor at jgmf.org


Call for Submissions to the Journal of Germanic Mythology and Folklore

Call for Articles & Reviews:
Journal of Germanic Mythology and Folklore
http://www.jgmf.org

Contributions for the third issue are accepted now through May 15,
2004.  Please see our web site for more information.

  Issues coming on May 30 and December 30.

  Contributions in the areas of Germanic mythology and folklore (all
approaches welcomed).  The Journal of Germanic Mythology and Folklore
hopes to stimulate interest and bring to light new scholarship as well
as to dispel misinterpretations and misunderstandings.

With the first issue appearing January 2004,  this new free web-based
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relating to Germanic (sometimes referred to as Norse or Teutonic)
mythology and folklore (ancient, medieval and modern).

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  All authors of accepted articles receive two free printed copies of
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 20 14:18:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:18:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technica" 2005.04.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.20.APR.2005.071822.0700.>

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From: "Mark Williamson" <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.19 (01) [E/LS]

Does anybody have any idea where I might find PHP code for a
multilingual dictionary software? Sort of like Glossword, but more
like that used at http://www.friul.net/multilingue/index.php - ie, it
lists the words all next to each other, rather than having to select
different dictionaries (?)

Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 20 14:19:51 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:19:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.20 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.20.APR.2005.071951.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.04.19 (01) [E/LS]

On 20/04/2005, at 12:33 AM, R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com wrote:

> From:
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> 'Fraid you may have, Tom.  While you thought you were talking about
> lexical
> impoverishment you were inadvertently enriching certain people's
> lexicon.
> Hard to stop it now.

Yeah but....No but...Well I mean Yeah......etc. :-)
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 20 14:21:55 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:21:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.20 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.20.APR.2005.072155.0700.>

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From: embryomystic at cogeco.ca <embryomystic at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (03) [A/E/LS]

Heather Rendall wrote:

> PS Still trying to follow up on the recent comment that
> the relationship between Italo-celtic languages has been
> debunked. All the recent books I have checked so far are
> still referring to it. Could I have some direction in
> which to look for the 'debunkers'. I found a very
> emotional web forum where a member was using DNA results
> ( unproven?) to link all sorts of unlikely
> countries/peoples and thereby proving ( so he said) that
> the accepted IE family history was twaddle.
> UNfortunately he made the mistake of thinking that a
> single langugae would restrict its use to a single DNA
> group.... which of course it doesn't and probably never
> has except millions/hundreds of thousands of years ago.

I can't really provide any backup for my initial statement. It's just
something I've heard in a few different places, none that I can be specific
about. I'm not particularly attached to the theory, and it could go either
way and I'd be fine with it. If you have recent published materials that
acknowledge it as a reasonable theory, then maybe my (vague) sources are
wrong. No worries.

It's pretty clear to me that attempting to tie language groups to genetic
ones is a fool's errand; look at the Y-chromosome results which show that
there's a group of men (or rather Y-chromosomes) whose frequency in the
overall population increases as you move westward in Europe, reaching its
highest percentages in, I think, western Ireland and the Basqueland. This
would suggest to me that in spite of the prevalence of two IE languages from
separate subgroups in Ireland, the people themselves are largely the same as
those who initially colonised it after the retreat of the glaciers.

Keep me updated, though, on-list or off-, if you discover anything
discussing the debunking of the Italo-Celtic theory, or a debunking of a
supposed debunking.

Regards,

Isaac M. Davis

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 00:08:16 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:08:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.20 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.20.APR.2005.170816.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (03) [A/E/LS]

Dear Gabriele, Jo and Reinhard,

concerning Gabrieles 'dobbelsteen': I have!! to be happy, because You an Jo
pointed up the fourth possible version in this topic!

Didn't I guess a little devil sitting around?

I'll put it down, written as *Tob[b]elsteen* in my own little Neddersassisch
dictionary: I no longer don't think it to be a 'Tafelsteen' or 'Tofallsteen'
from it's derive at all.

Thanks!

Very special Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 15:13:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:13:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (01) [E]
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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.15 (01) [E]


As Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca> noted, ????? is indeed the Russian for
"thingy, thingamabob, etc".

However, starting sometime early in the 90s (at least that's when I first
remember hearing it), there was an additional meaning that sprung (sprang?)
up, that could potentially (at least in my world of what-if semantics) cause
ambiguity ... at least when the speaker was a woman. To wit, ????? = 1000
rubles.

I had thought this usage had all but died out with the erasing of three
zeros from the currency, but recently I ran across this sentence from
internet chat-room chatter from November 2003:


 ?? ???? ?? ? ??????? ????? ? ?????, ? ?????? - ?????? :-))).

Which would be (spoken with a woman's voice, pitched about a major fifth
higher than is natural, as it "normal" for women there ... and here in Japan
as well):  "Well, at home I used to pay 1000 rubles a month, but now I don't
pay (diddly)-squat." (okay, maybe "diddly-squat" is not a female idiom;
can't say I ever remember my wife using it ... but you gte the picture: "not
a red cent".)

Now, MY (related) question: "Thingy, etc" are used (mainly) when we need to
refer to something that we (temporarily, at least) can't pull up the
appropriate noun for. Can anyone out there come up with anlaogous verbs, or
adjectives? Other than English, that is, which seems capable of using
practically any noun as a verb: "Yesterday I was going downtown to
whatchamacallit", etc.

I remain, how do you say, ... uhh, ... whatever,

Mike Morgan
Kobe City University of Foreign Studies

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 15:16:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:16:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.081617.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.17 (05) [E/LS]


I almost pushed the reply button as soon as I read Ian Pollock's question
about whether other (other than Russian that is) Slavic languages have a
"mute"-based word for the name of the country as well, or, like Russian, use
a variation on ????????.

However, I have long ago learned to scroll down to the bottom of the message
where Reinhard/Ron gives his 2-cents worth ... because he usually has the
answer ...  (^o^).

And this time, again, he did as well:

Ukrainian: ??????i? ~ ????????? (both)
Belarusian: ?????????
Polish: Niemcy
Czech: N?mecka
Upper Sorbian: N?mska ~ N?mskeje

One correction: unless R/R is giving a dialect form I'm not aware of, Czech
is N?mecko, a neuter, not a feminine -- unlike ALL the others, which are
feminines). And Slovak, (oh, let's NOT forget Slovak) is Nemecko ... without
the h??ek over the first "e". Also note that the Polish is a bit of an
oddball-out: it is a plural; literalyl: "The Germans"; all the others are
singulars.

I could leave it at that (well, someone else might could, _I_ can't), but I
WAS all set to answer, so I will anyway ... and help give an even MORE
complete picture. So we can add:

Croatian: Njem?aka
Serbian: ???????
Bosnian: ... okay, let's not fool anyone; on purely linguistic grounds,
Bosnian + Croatian + Serbian is REALLY ONE language. (Just joking (half-way
anyway); I say that because, Slav(ic)ist though I am, I can't say I know
exactly what form the Bosnians use (like good art, I know it when I see it),
though I imagine the Muslim Bosnians and the Orthodox Bosnians and the
Croat(ian) Bosnians MAY use different orthographic forms ... JUST to be
different.)
Slovene: Nem?ija
Macedonian: ???????j?
and Bulgarian: ????????
(I am unaware of ever having run across an Old Bulgarian/Old Church
Slav(on)ic reference to Germany; a quick search (though not for all possible
spelling variations) of my computerized OB/OCS texts .. maybe 15 or so of
the "major" ones -- supports this.)

So, in Slavdom at least, Russian (and Bulgarian + Macedonian) is (are) the
odd man (men) out: Germans ARE mute (and, at least one of my Francophile
Australian friends here would add, should remain so! (sic?)). Interestingly
enough, it is the countries CLOSEST to Germandom that refer to the country
as Mute-dom, while those furthest away use the a name based on "German". One
might have expected the opposite if unfamiliarity with the language ("speaks
a strange language" = "mute") motivated the choice (think of all the Czechs
and Slovenes who speak German fluently!).

And, halfway around the world (more or less) Dakota/Lakhota refer to the
Germans as iya?i?a (spellings vary), which derives from iya "to speak"  and
?i?a "bad, ugly".

(Many other N American Native languages (from Dine Bizaad (Navajo) to
Blackfoot) refer to Germans as "pointy/metal hats" ... which always reminds
me of the (Japanese, but also I believe native German) Sign Language sign:
fist with index finger extended upward, placed at the center of the forhead,
a clear, iconic reference to WWI German helmets.) Tsalagi (Cherokee), of
which I have a smidge of blood -- though far too little to put me on the
tribal roles, is the only NAm language I am aware of which uses the German
form: Advji (v= schwa) = a- + dvji < Deutsch, and interestingly enough,
refering to Dutch as well as German. (The initial a- is a noun prefix
attached to human nouns -- optionally for some singulars, though
obligatorily, I believe, in the plural.)

Mike Morgan

KCUFS

P.S.
Oh, and R/R adds that:

> So Russian makes a difference between the ethnicity/language and the
> country: adjectival "German": ???????? _nemeckij_ (ethnic/linguistic) vs
> ?????????? _germanskij_ (pertaining to the country).  I've always
> preferred
> this from a diversity point of view.

?????????? also refers, linguistically, to German-ic rather than merely
German. Thus, from the Russian point of view, I speak a ?????????? language
(English), though not a ???????? one (unless ???? counts, and to Russians it
DOESN'T). (One might add that, while I haven't met a Germanic language I
didn't like, German leaves me -- appologies to any speakers out there -- a
bit cold. Which is why the above is, a may forever remain, true.)

MWM

P.P.S.

And, while we are on the topic of names, I always find it interesting (laugh
inside?) when I write my nationality on the myriad of bureaucratic forms
required here in Japan: ?? /beikoku/, literally "rice country" -- ironic
considering import duties levied against foreign rice that are perhaps 10
times higher than any other import duties and make rice from "rice country"
here scarcer than hen's teeth (and my beloved indica rice at least 10-times
more expensive here than it would be in Pittsburgh, PA ... though the latter
is undoubtably MUCH further away from the source). I am always tempted to
use the form used in all (?) the other conutries using "kanji": ?? Mandarin
/m?i gu?/, Korean /mi-kuk/, and Vi??tnamese ? /My?/ "beautiful country".
And, it IS a beautiful country, at least physically, if not always
spiritually. ... Oh, and to make "mute" Germans feel better, the Chinese
charatcer used phonetically in the name of your country, actually means
"virtuous, etc". Again, an ideal we don't always live up to.

P.P.P.S.

And congrats to Bavaria on the new Pope!

----------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.16 (03) [E]


The construction Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de> refers to in Polish is
the common colloquial form in Russian as well, complete with the German
????? 'item'. So, where the literary standard would recommend "5 ?????"
/p'at' jablok/ "five apples", colloquially we often find "5 ???? ?????"
"five items of apples". A quick Google search of the internet for "X ????
?????" (where X = a number > 4, for grammatical reasons) turned up 50 hits
(mostly recipes ... apple pie?).

And an equally quick Google search for "X sztuk jab?ek" (the equivalent
Polish form) gave 7 hits. (Though I can't say anything about the
geographic/dialect distribution of the sztuk construction within Polish and
within Poland. I DO remember a friend who spent a while in Krak?w (NOT in
the West) using the construction; he was, however, a non-native speaker, ...
and he was exposed to Warszawian Polish in grad school and also at least
passively as a child (his father was an emigre), and I have no idea what
part of Poland THAT Polish came from. Plus, he hung out a lot with a couple
of us Russian speakers in grad school.

Mike Morgan
KCUFS

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 15:33:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:33:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.083309.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (06) [E]


Just took a gander at some of the Wren stories. Great!

But one (three?) clarification(s) to Sandy's BSL transcription.

Sandy writes:
"This is a translation of the story in British Sign Language using the
international Sign Writing system".

No, this transcription uses SignWriting (ONE word, and it probably should
have the trademark symbol after it), which is not "_the_ international Sign
Writing system" (emphasis added) but "_A_ Sign writing system" (originating,
incidentally, in dance notation), which granted IS used internationally ...
but so are several others. (Hamnosys, from Hamburg, is perhaps the most
popular here in Japan, but personally I find both less than satisfactory
(both aesthetically and linguistically) ... and I use my own very
idiosyncratic and un-international Sign writing system.)

And both have home pages if any of Lowlanders are interested in making heads
or tails of Sandy's (wonderful!) rendition (I'll have to admit that, like
readers who have to mouth the words as they read, my hands and fingers were
twitching as I read the text!).

For SignWriting, the site is:
http://signwriting.org/
For Hamnosys, the site is:
http://www.sign-lang.uni-hamburg.de/Projekte/HamNoSys/

And there probably should be a note on how to read the columns: probably
everyone assumes top to bottom, but living where I do, I am always tempted
to read vertical columns of text starting on the upper right, whereas most
"westerners" would start on the upper left.

Mike Morgan

P.S.

I'm posting a lot today because I'm trying to put off grading a rather large
pile of papers I really should hand back to my students tomorrow.

Plus I'm feeling a bit guilty for not having made MY contribution to the
anniversary pages. I'm considering an OB/OCS translation (of which I guess
I'm about as native a speaker as the next guy :-)) and JSL ... though for
the latter, rather than a transcription, I would prefer (for accessibility
reasons: learning to read a transcription system takes a LOT of commitment!)
making an mpeg contribution (in the form of a series of files, each
representing a "paragraph" of text. A single file would be too large for my
email program to handle sending). Would an mpeg file be acceptable?

MWM

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Thanks for pointing that out, Mike.  I'm currently at the clean-up stage.
It's quite likely that there are errors and omissions, and, being really
busy, I don't always catch those by myself.  So any help is appreciated (as
are new submissions).  Anyone can point them out to me by sending a note to
my private account.

It was I who wrote the intro to our Sandy's translation, not Sandy.  I will
make the change as soon as I can get around to it.

I look forward to receiving your ?????, Mike.

And talking about omissions, apologies to our Gary (Taylor) for his personal
intro having appeared late (under "People").  It was not the only ????? that
had fallen through the cracks in the wild pre-unveiling scramble, and
omission ought not be equated with lack of appreciation.  As I mentioned
before, the preparations coincided with Mathieu, Henry and myself having
extraordinary things going on and being extraordinarily busy off the List.
So I appreciate everyone's forebearance -- which is not to say you should
halt your writing and recording projects.  Please keep them going and
coming!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: For those who joined us this week let me add that we are talking about
our 10th anniversary web presentation:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 20:10:04 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:10:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.131004.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (01) [E]

Screw around can be used that way too. I also notice that those Thingy
thingamabob things are mainly used by women here in western America. Men
tend to use it much less. They will say thing.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 20:29:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:29:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.132932.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (02) [A/E]

Hallo julle!

En hier in Suid Afrika is Duitsers vir baie jare deur veral die Kaapse
gemeenskappe as "Duisters" bekend gestaan. Die taalverskynsel is natuurlik
bekend as taalverspringing.
'n Witmens was 'n "Duusman" genoem.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

And Slovak, (oh, let's NOT forget Slovak) is Nemecko ... without
the h??ek over the first "e". Also note that the Polish is a bit of an
oddball-out: it is a plural; literalyl: "The Germans"; all the others are
singulars.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Elsie,

Is there a connection, or is it a coincidence that in Low Saxon _doyster_
(<D??ster> ~ <D?uster> ~ <Deuster> ['d9Ist3`] ~ ['dOIst3`]) is one of
several taboo replacements for _duyvel_ (<D?vel> ~ <D?bel> ['dy:v=l] ~
['dy:b=l]) 'devil'.

Afrikaans _duister_ 'dark' directly corresponds to Low Saxon _duyster_
(<d??ster> ['dy:st3`]) 'dark'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 20:45:20 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:45:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (06) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.134520.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]


Mihangel ap Morgan wrote:
"I'm posting a lot today because I'm trying to put off grading a rather
large pile of papers I really should hand back to my students tomorrow. Plus
I'm feeling a bit guilty for not having made MY contribution to the
anniversary pages."

That makes two of us, Mike! Apologies to all concerned. All my "busy-nesses"
have come at once.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary/Memories 2005.04.21 [E/Go.]

Leeve Leyglanners,

Anniversaries are or should be times for memories. Ik zul graag welke
bijzonders lustige of prettige herinnerongen uit de tienjaarse looptid van
de Lowlands-L websijt kunnen lezen. Is er toch exemplaren?

--Sorry for the fractured Nederlands/Vlaams. I promise to do better next
time.

We have other auspicious memories now surrounding us:
"Ihr naht Euch wieder, schwankende Gespenster..."
Sixty years have elapsed since WWII, and ninety years since the Armenian
genocide. Lessons for us? As carriers of a linguistic and cultural tradition
that contains both majorities and minorities, we bear a double duty of
memory.

In that context, I had previously mentioned that during a visit to the
Crimea, I had found several
vestiges of  Gothic place names. They are not Siebenbuergen Sachsen, Czarina
Katherine's Don River Germans, nor Mennonite names. They are attested by
many comparable Gothic place names in Montenegro, Istria, Macedonia,
Bulgaria, Romania, and Turkey (near the Bulgarian border).
Here are our findings thus far:

Sitankam  (Gothic Stainhamma, "stony place");
Mangup-Kale (Gothic Manguth-Baurg, "Manguth's Fort");
Bork-Kol-burun ("Baurg-Kol-Brunne");
Isil-Charna ("Asilu-qairnus", Goth. for "donkey-mill");
Rindjil ("Rinndzil", Goth. "low ridge, hill");\
Gun-charna (Goth. "Kuni-Qairnus", or "tribal mills");
Kavarna (Slav. version of goth. "qairnus", mill);
Litilburgaz (Goth. "Leitil-baurgs", "little fort");
Vargun (Goth. "fairgun", or "Berg": "mountain").

At Bork-Kol-Burun, we actually found a small, cold spring trickling from a
rock cliff near the fortress ruins. Many archaeological finds in most of the
foregoing places attest the age and cultural identity of Gothic settlements.

Just thought I would share with Lowlanders the importance and the poignancy
of memory.

Grueten,

Arthur

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]

Dear all,

Ron, Mathieu and Henry, may I on behalf of us all, give you guys
a very big thank-you for the hard work that went into the anniversary
pages. We appreciate it very much.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

 and omission ought not be equated with lack of appreciation.  As I
mentioned
before, the preparations coincided with Mathieu, Henry and myself having
extraordinary things going on and being extraordinarily busy off the List.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Thank you, Cr?ost?ir, Arthur and Elsie.

Folks, if you submit persional introductions, you might want to consider
writing a version in your native or favorite language as well if it's not
English.  (I know I'm no one to talk. My intro is so long, and now I don't
have time to translate it ...)

Elsie, thanks for thanks.  It's sweet of you to have taken the initiative.
We share the laurel wreath with everyone who has collaborated, and you are
one of them.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: For the person who joined just us (Bem vinda do Rio de Janeiro a
Lowlands-L!), let me add that we are talking about our 10th anniversary web
presentation:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 20:46:32 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:46:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (06) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.134632.0700.>

Oops! This just went out under a wrong header ... PFH
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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]

Mihangel ap Morgan wrote:
"I'm posting a lot today because I'm trying to put off grading a rather
large pile of papers I really should hand back to my students tomorrow. Plus
I'm feeling a bit guilty for not having made MY contribution to the
anniversary pages."

That makes two of us, Mike! Apologies to all concerned. All my "busy-nesses"
have come at once.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary/Memories 2005.04.21 [E/Go.]

Leeve Leyglanners,

Anniversaries are or should be times for memories. Ik zul graag welke
bijzonders lustige of prettige herinnerongen uit de tienjaarse looptid van
de Lowlands-L websijt kunnen lezen. Is er toch exemplaren?

--Sorry for the fractured Nederlands/Vlaams. I promise to do better next
time.

We have other auspicious memories now surrounding us:
"Ihr naht Euch wieder, schwankende Gespenster..."
Sixty years have elapsed since WWII, and ninety years since the Armenian
genocide. Lessons for us? As carriers of a linguistic and cultural tradition
that contains both majorities and minorities, we bear a double duty of
memory.

In that context, I had previously mentioned that during a visit to the
Crimea, I had found several
vestiges of  Gothic place names. They are not Siebenbuergen Sachsen, Czarina
Katherine's Don River Germans, nor Mennonite names. They are attested by
many comparable Gothic place names in Montenegro, Istria, Macedonia,
Bulgaria, Romania, and Turkey (near the Bulgarian border).
Here are our findings thus far:

Sitankam  (Gothic Stainhamma, "stony place");
Mangup-Kale (Gothic Manguth-Baurg, "Manguth's Fort");
Bork-Kol-burun ("Baurg-Kol-Brunne");
Isil-Charna ("Asilu-qairnus", Goth. for "donkey-mill");
Rindjil ("Rinndzil", Goth. "low ridge, hill");\
Gun-charna (Goth. "Kuni-Qairnus", or "tribal mills");
Kavarna (Slav. version of goth. "qairnus", mill);
Litilburgaz (Goth. "Leitil-baurgs", "little fort");
Vargun (Goth. "fairgun", or "Berg": "mountain").

At Bork-Kol-Burun, we actually found a small, cold spring trickling from a
rock cliff near the fortress ruins. Many archaeological finds in most of the
foregoing places attest the age and cultural identity of Gothic settlements.

Just thought I would share with Lowlanders the importance and the poignancy
of memory.

Grueten,

Arthur

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]

Dear all,

Ron, Mathieu and Henry, may I on behalf of us all, give you guys
a very big thank-you for the hard work that went into the anniversary
pages. We appreciate it very much.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

 and omission ought not be equated with lack of appreciation.  As I
mentioned
before, the preparations coincided with Mathieu, Henry and myself having
extraordinary things going on and being extraordinarily busy off the List.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Thank you, Cr?ost?ir, Arthur and Elsie.

Folks, if you submit persional introductions, you might want to consider
writing a version in your native or favorite language as well if it's not
English.  (I know I'm no one to talk. My intro is so long, and now I don't
have time to translate it ...)

Elsie, thanks for thanks.  It's sweet of you to have taken the initiative.
We share the laurel wreath with everyone who has collaborated, and you are
one of them.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: For the person who joined just us (Bem vinda do Rio de Janeiro a
Lowlands-L!), let me add that we are talking about our 10th anniversary web
presentation:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 21:30:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:30:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.143021.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (06) [D/E]

Ron wrote: "For the person who joined just us..."

I think Ron got a little to quick with his fingers, otherwise I have a
question:  Who else would someone join?  :-)

Sorry to take a little jab at you, but I couldn't resist.

Mark Brooks

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

'Kay, Teach.  I admit the flying fingers thingmy is at fault, as you
suspected.

So, do you want to join our Jonny on the Be-Very-Afraid List?  If so, it can
be arranged.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 21 23:15:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:15:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.161542.0700.>

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Mark wrote

"I think Ron got a little to quick with his fingers"

what does 'to quick' mean, and a little what - just what exactly is he doing
with his fingers???? ;)

Gary

http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Taa f? duing the job foo mi, Gary, mey'.

And to Mark I say "So there!"

As for the fingers, I won't tell.  ;-)

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 04:36:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:36:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2005.04.22 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.21.APR.2005.213642.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Holidays

To our Muslim members, although at the end of the day (sorry), greetings and
best wishes on the Birthday of the Prophet (?????????  ??????? ??).

To our Jewish members, although a few days early to allow for travels, best
wishes for Passover (????????)!

And to our Bah??????? members, happy Ridvan!

May all of you celebrate in pleasant company!

On behalf of your friends at Lowlands-L,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 14:23:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:23:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.072340.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: Games

I was surprised to be informed on a TV programme last night that golf
originated in Holland. Us Scots, of course, claim to have invented this
along with everything else.
On reflection I can't help wondering if the game did originate
somewhere in Flemish territory, anybody know ?
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 14:43:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:43:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.22 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.074331.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (04) [E]

On 22/04/2005, at 6:10 AM, Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu> wrote:

> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (01) [E]
>
> Screw around can be used that way too. I also notice that those Thingy
> thingamabob things are mainly used by women here in western America.

Just realised that Australians do have one of those silly words in
regular use.
I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked "Have you seen
WOTSIZNAME ?".
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Well, Tom, good to know you don't have to go totally without in Australia.
;-)

And not to forget the ever-so-lovely permutation "whotsisface"!  I bet you
like this one even better.

Have a good weekend, ... whozzisface ... Tom!

Uh ... whozzisface ...
Reinhard/Ron

"It's the same as a whatchamacallit or a thingumabob or a doomaflitchy or a
how-you-call-it or a doodad or a hootis or a what's-it or a gizmo or a
gadget or a widget or a doohicky."
William Safire, NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE , NEW YORK
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2005/01/09/2003218669

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 14:56:25 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:56:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.22 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.075625.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (08) [E]

Gary wrote: "what does 'to quick' mean"

Well, uh, you know like "the quick and the dead"...?  I guess that just
proves the old saying that "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw
stones."  But, hey, stone throwing is just so much fun!

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 15:09:50 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:09:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (04) [A/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.080950.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Etymology [A]

Haai julle,

Nee, Ron, ek glo nie daar is 'n verband tussen Duusman en die Laagsaksiese
"_doyster_(<D??ster> ~ <D?uster> ~ <Deuster> ... taboo replacements
for _duyvel_ (<D?vel> ~ <D?bel> ['dy:v=l] ['dy:b=l]) 'devil'."

Dit is waarskynlik (hopelik!) slegs die produk van klankverspringing
(metathesis)
soos in: ros->horse;
weps-> wesp;
fluweel->ferweel;
duitser->duister->duisman->duusman

Maar hoe sal ons ooit weet? Wittes is in Zoeloe bekend as 'amalungu' wat
'towenaars' beteken.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

[Is there a connection, or is it a coincidence that in Low Saxon _doyster_
(<D??ster> ~ <D?uster> ~ <Deuster> ['d9Ist3`] ~ ['dOIst3`]) is one of
several taboo replacements for _duyvel_ (<D?vel> ~ <D?bel> ['dy:v=l] ~
['dy:b=l]) 'devil'.]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 20:01:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:01:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.130119.0700.>

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From: Clarkedavid8 at aol.com <Clarkedavid8 at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

It is seen in Dutch and Flemish paintings, but it used to be found all over
Europe, like the bagpipes. Neither are specifically Scottish or specifically
Flemish, as far as I am aware.

david clarke

---------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

Tom, I have heard somewhere that they have paintings of a game like golf in
China in the thirteenth century Anno Domini.

----------

From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]]

> From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
> Subject: Games

Hi Tom,

>On reflection I can't help wondering if the game did originate
>somewhere in Flemish territory, anybody know ?

There's a sport that shows some ressemblance to golf which is called
'klootschieten'. The goal is to reach the target in the least possible
turns. Contrary to golf the ball (kloot) is trown, but the target is often a
few 100 meters from the starting point. It is played along the roads, and
players make a tour like on a golf course. I've seen a game somewhere in the
Netherlands (can't remember where) but I guess it was also played in
Flanders.

Groeten,

Jo Thys

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Games

While it may be true that golf was introduced to Scotland by the "Flemish,"
I feel it's impossible to tell where most games began, and I take all such
proclamations with a grain of salt.

Many games are found all over Eurasia and often coincide with those in
Africa and the Americas.  Where there is no strong possibility of spread
(such as in the case of polo, which existed a long time ago from Western
Europe to Japan and is believed to have originated in Persia or Central
Asia), similarly field hocky (with variants from Irish iom?na?ocht /hurling
and Scottish camanachd /shinty to East Asian variants -- we should just
assume that similar games sprang up independently from each other.  After
all, ball games are found all over the globe, and coming up with beating a
ball with a stick or a crook toward a goal or into a hole, or kicking,
throwing or beating it isn't exactly rocket science, is it?

Above, Jo mentions _klootschieten_ (a word that sounds really nasty to Low
Saxon ears, by the way -- like ... well, _clot sc?tan_, to say it in Old
English for the sake of civility). If I'm not mistaken, variants of it are
found throughout Western and Eastern Friesland (_Bosseln_), and it may
belong to a Frisian substrate in Hollandish cultures.  However, there is a
very similar game in Ireland, especially in Corcach/Cork and
Ard-Macha/Armagh: "road ball," and the supposedly ancient Celtic _ Poc Fada_
competitions is not far from it either.  Is there a connection, or are they
independent inventions?  Might a similar game have been taken from the
European continent to Britain and Ireland?

Wondering ...

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 21:28:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:28:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.142817.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.22 (03) [E]

Re: to quick and the quick and the dead as discussed by Mark and Gary
Is'nt the expression " life quickened " when a woman feels a baby moving
for the first time? I had never heard of to quick as a verb, but "quick"
as adjective or an adverb seems to be related to Dutch "kwiek" or German
"keck". They both mean "energetic or with alacrity" Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Jacqueline, Lowlanders!

In Low Saxon we also have the verb _kwikken_ (<quicken>, root /kwik-/) 'to
refresh,' 'to revive' (like German _erquicken_).

In the 19th-century Romantic age of Low Saxon revival, Klaus Groth
(http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/) came up with the concept (though
probably not the actual word) of _kwikborn_ (<Quickborn>), literally
"refreshing/reviving source/fountain," much like the "fountain of youth," as
a metaphor for the language campaign.  It ended up being the title of a
periodical which survives till this day.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 21:31:28 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:31:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.22 (07)  [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.143128.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.21 (01) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Other than English, that is, which seems capable of using
practically any noun as a verb: "Yesterday I was going downtown to
whatchamacallit", etc.
<

My mother is a past-master at saying " Heh Thingy, you know that
whatdoyermacallit? Well it's thingymebobbed next to the howsyerfather  -
you know the one by the wotsit.!!!!!!!

Perfekly clear !

Heather

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 21:33:05 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:33:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.22 (08)  [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.143305.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (06) [D/E]

Hoi Arthur. Your Dutch is not so bad, it's understandable. But the right
translation would be:

ik zou (zal) graag enige/enkele/een paar bijzonder grappige/leuke of
prettige herinneringen uit/van het tienjarig bestaan/de tienjarige
periode/looptijd van de Lowlands-L website willen lezen. Zijn er nog
voorbeelden(?)?

Btw: there is no difference between Dutch and Flemish, these are just two
names for the same language, the first in the Netherland, Suriname etc,
the latter in Dutch-speaking Belgium.

Groetjes, Ingmar

>From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Anniversary/Memories 2005.04.21 [E/Go.]
>
>Leeve Leyglanners,
>
>Anniversaries are or should be times for memories. Ik zul graag welke
>bijzonders lustige of prettige herinnerongen uit de tienjaarse looptid van
>de Lowlands-L websijt kunnen lezen. Is er toch exemplaren?
>
>--Sorry for the fractured Nederlands/Vlaams. I promise to do better next
>time.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 22:10:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:10:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.151009.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (05) [E]

Van Kolf tot Golf

I found this webpage that discusses golf and something called Kolf.

http://www.cultuurwijzer.nl/nwc.rijksmuseumamsterdam/cultuurwijs.nl/i000807.
html
<http://www.cultuurwijzer.nl/nwc.rijksmuseumamsterdam/cultuurwijs.nl/i000807
.html>

Mark Brooks

----------

From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

R/R wrote:

> Above, Jo mentions _klootschieten_ (a word that sounds really nasty to Low
> Saxon ears, by the way -- like ... well, _clot sc?tan_, to say it in Old
> English for the sake of civility).

I assure you, it has the same nasty connotation in modern
Dutch as well, which I think is one of the reasons the game
never really caught on ...  A less objectionable variant of
'kloot' is 'kluit', which simply is a clump of earth.

But the original subject was the game of golf, in particular
its origin.  In 17th century Netherlands there was a popular
pastime named 'kolf'.  More about 'kolf' (en 'klootschieten')
can be found at:

http://www.cultuurwijzer.nl/nwc.rijksmuseumamsterdam/cultuurwijs.nl/i000807.html

Gustaaf

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (05) [E]


Ron wrote:
"...we should just assume that similar games sprang up independently from
each other. After
all, ball games are found all over the globe, and coming up with beating a
ball with a stick or a crook toward a goal or into a hole, or kicking,
throwing or beating it isn't exactly rocket science, is it?"

I completely agree. I found myself kicking an old arm-length stick idly
about a field the other day, but it doesn't mean I have fused hurling and
football. It just means I was kicking an old arm-length stick idly about a
field while my mind was elsewhere. (Highly recommended for stress relief,
however.)

If you hand a group of toddlers from various cultures a ball they will soon
have made up a game, often resembling a mixture of soccer, football,
basketball and catch, thereby demonstrating the shared, basically human
origin of most - if not all - ball games.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

I always thought everything was invented by Ivan Ivanovich Somebody-or-Other

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]

From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2005.04.22 (01) [E]]

> There's a sport that shows some ressemblance to golf which is called
> 'klootschieten'. The goal is to reach the target in the least possible
> turns. Contrary to golf the ball (kloot) is trown, but the target is often
> a
> few 100 meters from the starting point. It is played along the roads, and
> players make a tour like on a golf course. I've seen a game somewhere in
> the
> Netherlands (can't remember where) but I guess it was also played in
> Flanders.
>
> Groeten,
>
> Jo Thys

Reuben Epp replies:
reuben at silk.net

I was first introduced to 'Klootsheeten' many years ago by Hein Diers,
the then well-known author of Low Saxon in the dialect of Oldenburg.
I replied to him, pronouncing the name of the game as 'Klootschieten.'
Thereupon, he bounced from his chair and emphasized, 'Klootscheeten'
not 'Klootschieten.' Recognizing the difference between 'scheeten' and
'schieten,' I now do not make that mistake.

Cheers!

Reuben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Games

Paul (above):

> I always thought everything was invented by Ivan Ivanovich
> Somebody-or-Other

Don't you mean Baron Untel Tartempion de Ch?teau Commonsappelle de
Trucmuche?

Reuben, the _kloot_ part doesn't help either, no matter which way you turn
it.  It all sounds suspiciously like _kloyten-schyten_ ~ _kluyten-schyten_
(<Kl?tenschieten> ~ <Kl?tenschieten>), *_Kluteschiete_ in Plautdietsch, I
suppose.

On this lovely note,
Have a nice weekend!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 22 22:42:56 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:42:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.22.APR.2005.154256.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (06) [E]

To Ron re "Kwikken". Dat was een verkwikkend (refreshing) argument.
Jacqueline

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.22 (07) [E]

Heather wrote: "next to the howsyerfather..."

So, who is that next to YOUR howsyerfather?  I had the need to look that one
up a while back.  I was reading about some advertisement in the British
media with one of those supermodels, uh, "modeling" some panties (as we call
them here in America) that caused an uproar because she had her hand under
the waistband near her how's-your-father.  Well, I was intrigued about what
that might be.  I googled it and WELL...

Mark Brooks

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Mark,

Under normal circumstances I would prudently and prudishly counter, "Well,
we do want to leave *some* things to the imagination."  However, seeing that
you have -- albeit somewhat unceremoniously -- touched upon an etymological
matter of great import, I urge you to join me in deferring to the ever so
gifted Michael Horatio Kelly (a.k.a. "O Wise One") who is an expert on this
very linguistic phenomenon.  You would do well perusing his treatise on this
very subject:
http://www.michaelkelly.fsnet.co.uk/qfather.htm

On the other hand, you might prefer to subscribe to a more mundane
hypothesis:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/20/messages/553.html

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 23 20:59:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:59:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.23.APR.2005.135938.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (10) [E]

I have a very peculiar way of saying "What the hell/f/..." I say, "What the
mother?" Is that just my extreme strangeness, or does anybody say anything
like that?

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (06) [E]

It was just a joke because that person forgot an o and the ly to say "too
quickly." Also, why do so many English speakers say things like "too quick?"

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.22 (06) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Re: to quick and the quick and the dead<

OHG   quec =  modern English    live   the adjective not the verb

e.g   He shall come to judge the quick and the dead
 to cut yourself to the quick ( i.e. to the live & painful flesh)
  In Hodgson Burnett's The Secret Garden much was made about the Yorkshire
that  the boy Diccon spoke. The other two children learn it and one of
their favourite expressions is "feeling quick" i.e. feeling alive  and as
their activities outside and in the garden bring them back to health and
energy they constantly declaim "I feel quick as quick"
Quickthorn  is a fast setting hawthorn bush much used in hedges and known
locally as 'quickset'

quecan >> to quicken  i.e. to be alive or to become alive
 A  babe is said to have quickened when its firsat movements are detected
by the mother

The origins of 'quick' as we know it today are related cognitively to the
same meaning as 'Look lively' as used by the Navy.

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Heather!

Here's a bit more.

Old Saxon:
kwik: alive, lively, life (adj.)
kwik?n (kwik?n): 'to live, 'to be alive'
?kwik?n (?kwik?n): 'to bring to life', 'to revive'
kwikh?d: 'liveliness', 'state of being alive'

Old Low Franconian:
kwik: alive, lively, life (adj.)

Old Frisian:
kwik: alive, lively, life (adj.)

Old German:
kwek (~ kwik): alive, lively, life (adj.)
(ir)kwekken: to bring to life
irkwekk?n (irkwekk?n): to revive (trans.)
kwekk? (kwekk?): liveliness, state of being alive
kwekl?hh? (kwekl?hh?): life (being(s)), liveliness, state of being alive
kwekbrunno: fountain of life
kweksilabar: quicksilver, mercury

Old Norse:
kvikr: alive, life (adj.)
kvikna: to come to life
kveikja: to bring to life
kv?kva (kv?kva): to bring to life
kvikf? (kvikf?): (live) property, lifestock

Gothic:
qius: alive (Crimean)
gaqiunan: to come to life
anaqiujan: to bring to life
gaqiujan: to bring to life
qaiwjan: to bring to life

Indo-European (modified spelling):
*gwey- ~ gwey at - ~ gwy?- ~ gwiy?- ~ gwy?- ~ gw?-: to be alive

Note also preservation in (modern and pre-modern) Scots (incl. Shetlandic):


(1) quick, quik, kwikk, hwikk, whick, queek: life, alive, (alive with =)
infested



I?m seen the grund kwik wi? hondiklokks. (... winged beetles)

quickhorn ~ quick horn: horn taken from a living animal

(2) quick, quik, kwikk, hwikk, whick, queek: > not stagnant, bubbling,
rippling

quick-water: running water, current
quick-spring
quick-sand
quick-fresh: spring in mossy ground
I stooped doon till the quick-water was rinnin? ower my heid, an? I drew oot
fish an? cast an? a?.

(3) quick, quik, kwikk, hwikk, whick, queek: living creature, esp. insect,
bug, etc.

Ointments for all sorts of wounds, &c. killing quicks or maggots

(http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 23 23:35:39 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:35:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.23 (02) [E/M.English/Gothic]
Message-ID: <SAT.23.APR.2005.163539.0700.>

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From: "Arthur Jones" <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.22 (08) [E]

Hails Dalathlandarjes!

Ingmar just helped me immensely with my fractured
Nederlands, and I thank him for taking the time to
also cite a few synonyms and alternative phrases. This
encourages me to make further attempts to write
whatever --thingwy-- in one or another of the Lowlands
tongues. There is no really compelling reason why us
Sassenacks simply MUST use English, only vanity.

Having said that, we still don't have any neat
examples of funny, poignant or memorable exchanges
that stand out from the background of the past ten
years. I know from the last two-year period that I saw
a couple or so. How about it, chers membres de la
galerie des cacahuetes? Or, how about a few "petits
riens du Grand Maitre"?

Sincerely, of which Sin is more fun than the Serely
part, ;-)

Arthur

"Ik ni im waidedja"
        --- President Richard M. Nixon, 1974

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

O frodaba, unagands jah fria?wamilds dra?htins Ar?ur!

Jai gafra?jis jah wa?la geleikai?s ?eins gawa?rdi ist, swin?s ?eins ta?hts,
andilaus ?eins ?iu?eins, o wa?r?aba witodafasteis!

Maye Youre moste humble seruant propone conseil wth Hure Mageste the Queene
of thessaid Indies-Nutes Galleryes Reaume, oure most Dere and Cheryshyd
Ladie and Mistresse seurly beynge famuler wth comptlesse iolyf and lustie
mony-whats, histories and eschaunges in thes Compaignys longe bygane tyme.

With thes proposicioun bedes Youre moste humble and obedyent seruant til
Yewe, my Lord of Gret Hynesse, Hise Worthyest Ladie Robyn, and Alle Worthy
Membres of Thes Venerabill Assemblay his veray honeste and cordiall
salutaciouns.

The vnderwrit
Ragnheart Hawne
(Reinhard/Ron)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 00:39:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:39:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.23.APR.2005.173922.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]

Leeve Leyglanners,

Here, in Los Angeles, pedestrians (foot-folk) are divided into two main
groups: The quick and the dead.
;-)
Arthur

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

I am rather surprised to find that the origin of the obsolete English word
"ron [1]" in the excellent online (subscription) version of the _Oxford
English Dictionary_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/) is listed as obscure:

<quote>

"ron [1]"

[Of obscure origin.
  The word being app. southern, it is uncertain whether the original form is
ron or r??n:???*ran: the latter would have a parallel in Ir. rann verse, poem,
but any real connexion between the two is very doubtful. In Cursor M. 219
the form ron prob. stands for roun, r??n, but riot ron (riming with don done)
in line 26938 may belong here.]
    A short poem or song, esp. a love-song.

a1225 Leg. Kath. 108 Nalde ha nane ronnes ne nane luue runes leornin ne
lustnen. c1275 Luue Ron 2 in O.E. Misc. 93 A mayde Cristes me bit yorne, ??at
ich hire wurche a luue ron [rimes -mon, con]. 1327 in Rel. Antiqu?? I. 119
Herkne to my ron As ich ou telle con. c1370 Clene Maydenhod (Vernon MS.) 2
Of a trewe loue clene and derne Ichaue I-write ??e A Ron [rimes -mon, con,
vppon]

</quote>

Personally I have no doubt in my mind that this word is a biblically derived
Hebrew one:

?????? ~ ??????
RN (r??n = _ron_ with a short "o", or _r??n_)

The original meaning of this noun appears to be '(ringing) cry', 'shout',
'cry of joy', 'cheer', extended to approximately 'tune', 'song', 'air',
'(sung) poem', 'ode'.

Psalms 37:

??:
????????????, ?????????? ??????  --  ???????????? ????????????????? ????
 ????? ?????? ????????????; ????????????????????? ???? ??????????

z:
aTT?? seT??r liy ??? miSSar TTiSS'reniy
R??Nney sallet; TT'sowv'veniy s??l??h

7:
Thou art my hiding-place; Thou wilt preserve me from the adversary;
with SONGS of deliverance Thou wilt compass me about. Selah

This word is related to the following verb:

????? ???? _r??nan_ 'to give ringing cries', 'to shout', 'to cheer', 'to exalt',
'to praise (loudly)',

Does anyone disagree with my assumption?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: This noun is also a Hebrew given name for males. It happens to be the
one given to me (in lieu of my German name) by my first Hebrew teacher in
Israel.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 20:27:42 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:27:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.132742.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (03) [E]

Ron [1] asked:
"Does anyone disagree with my assumption?"

Yes, or should i say I have some questions about it.
Hebrew origin of a Middle English word? I doubt that, although it is
theoretically possible and of course there are Hebrew derived words in
(Middle) English, through the Bible or otherwise.
But I think it has more to do with 'run', and means a song or a poem that
is running, because of its shortness. In Dutch we say that <iets loopt>
when it's going well, smoothly. Lopen = to walk/to run. And <een loopje>
is a short musical passage, like a <run> in English.

Irish <rann> seems to be more plausible, then.

Or, even more interesting, how about a connection to <rune>?
>>From <secret/obscure sign> to <secret message> to <(short) secret love
poem> to <ron>? That isn't any stranger than from the Hebrew meaning <cry>
to <short love poem/song>, neh?

So hopefully we can't say anymore that our Ron [1] is of obscure origin too

Ingmar

>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>
>"ron [1]"
>
>[Of obscure origin.
>  The word being app. southern, it is uncertain whether the original form
is
>ron or r?n:?*ran: the latter would have a parallel in Ir. rann verse,
poem,
>but any real connexion between the two is very doubtful. In Cursor M. 219
>the form ron prob. stands for roun, r?n, but riot ron (riming with don
done)
>in line 26938 may belong here.]
>    A short poem or song, esp. a love-song.
>
>Personally I have no doubt in my mind that this word is a biblically
derived
>Hebrew one:
>
>??? ~ ???
>RN (r?n = _ron_ with a short "o", or _r?n_)
>
>The original meaning of this noun appears to be '(ringing) cry', 'shout',
>'cry of joy', 'cheer', extended to approximately 'tune', 'song', 'air',
>'(sung) poem', 'ode'.
>
>>This word is related to the following verb:
>
>?? ?? _r?nan_ 'to give ringing cries', 'to shout', 'to cheer', 'to exalt',
>'to praise (loudly)',
>
>Does anyone disagree with my assumption?

----------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]

Och more entomology than etymology Ron but this fascinates me.
I don't know if it still exists in Lowland Scots but my mother and her
friends would refer to large beetles, and I suspect cockroaches, as
'Big Kloakers'.

On 24/04/2005, at 6:59 AM,  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I?m seen the grund kwik wi? hondiklokks. (... winged beetles)
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (03) [E]

Could those definitions have come from th wrend or a rendition?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ingmar,

I assumed it went without saying that I had in mind biblical influence, a
term borrowed by way of Old Testament scholarship.  However, I suppose I
ought to have assumed nothing.

Perhaps mine would not be more exotic a proposition than your "run" one, one
assuming French origin (*_rond_) or some such.  I understand that the
obsolete English term "ron" used to be restricted to scholarly, literary
spheres, which may make it a bit more likely to have been an esoteric term.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 20:29:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:29:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.04.24 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.132914.0700.>

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From: Uilleam ?g mhic Sheumais <goidel.glas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]

Latha math, a Lowlanders;

Ben said:
>I have a very peculiar way of saying "What the hell/f/..." I say, "What the
>mother?" Is that just my extreme strangeness, or does anybody say anything
>like that?

A friend of mine - who has lived all over the place - also says that.
I don't know where she picked it up though! Most people around here
(Massachusetts) think it's weird, too.

Beannachdan,
Uilleam ?g mhic Sheumais

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 20:31:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:31:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.24 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.133109.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: language politics

Read on the website of the LA Times,
Regards,
Roger

April 24, 2005

A Twist for an Ancient Tongue Trying to Survive

By John Daniszewski, Times Staff Writer

AN SPIDEAL, Ireland - Generations of English-speaking tourists who have used
this pretty village of thatched cottages as a jumping-off point for the
pleasures of the wild Connemara region have known it as Spiddal.

But a new government policy means that the settlement, which boasts
spectacular views of Galway Bay and the Aran Islands in the distance, will
be known only by its Gaelic name, An Spideal.

As of March 28, all English versions of place names were eliminated in the
Gaeltacht, the pockets of Ireland where a majority of people still speak
Gaelic. English no longer has official standing on signposts, legal
documents or government maps. (For now, until the sign-makers get cracking,
officials are just covering up the English names.)

It is the latest official gesture in support of the Irish tongue. But is it
too little, too late? In the midst of an economic boom that is both
encouraging and threatening Gaelic's popularity, many advocates for the
republic's "first official language" are worried.

"It is terrible how things are going," said Seamas O Cualain, an 82-year-old
enthusiast of the language of his forebears, which is almost always called
Irish on this island to distinguish it from the Scottish form of Gaelic.
"The language is dying in the Gaeltacht."

The lilting tongue, which arrived in Ireland with the Celts centuries before
Romans reached the British Isles, has an alluring sound, aspirated
consonants and a rich trove of poetry and folklore. Just a few words have
moved into English: "smithereens" and "leprechaun," for example. But
something of its musical syntax is captured by Irish English, as in the
phrase, " 'Tis himself that's coming now."

The change in the place names makes sense, advocates say. The English
versions, put down by government surveyors in the early 1800s, are mostly
nonsensical phonetic approximations of Gaelic words.

Spiddal, for instance, has no meaning in English or Irish. But in Irish, An
Spideal means "the hospital," a name that derives from the village's having
once been the site of a leper colony.

Another egregious example is a spit of land with the bowdlerized English
name of Muckanaghederdauhaulia. In Irish, it won't be much easier to spell:
Muiceanach idir Dha Shaile. But at least it will have a meaning: the point
between two tides.

Tourist maps, however, will continue to carry English place names in the
Gaeltacht - which includes parts of seven counties - alongside the Irish.

The changes are a way to encourage Gaeltacht residents who may be wavering
to hang on to their language by showing it its due respect, said Deaglan O
Briain of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in
Dublin. "Official Ireland [is] saying to people in the Gaeltacht areas that
we do recognize that you are there, and your language exists."

O Cualain, meticulously dressed, with glassine skin, blue eyes and a shock
of white hair, met a reporter in his neat cottage, the fireplace aglow in
his cozy study cum dining room. He is, he said, part of a generation of
native speakers trained as teachers in Irish-only preparatory colleges.

The goal was for these graduates to spread the language across the island,
bringing the dying tongue back to life in all of the 26 counties that
secured de facto independence from Britain in 1922. The idea was promulgated
by W.T. Cosgrave, leader of the Irish Free State, the nation's first
incarnation as a republic.

More than 80 years later, a debate rages about the efficacy of those
efforts, prompted in part by the Irish-language commissioner's recent
criticism of the teaching of the language in public schools.

Students must study Irish for 13 years, from kindergarten through high
school, receiving more than 1,500 hours of instruction in all. Yet many
still graduate without fluency, says Commissioner Sean O Cuirreain.

He is a government official who acts as an ombudsman for Irish-speaking
citizens and monitors government departments' implementation of
Irish-language policy from his office in An Spideal. O Cuirreain believes
that the country could do much better and that teaching methods should be
reviewed.

On the other hand, he sees positive signs - such as a recent trend of
parents outside the Gaeltacht sending their children to all-Irish-speaking
schools.

Five percent of Irish children are in such classrooms, he said, while an
Irish-language TV station gets 100,000 viewers a day, and people listen to
pop music on a 24-hour Irish-language radio station.

In all, 1.57 million - or nearly 40% - of the nation's 4 million people say
they speak Irish, and 337,000 (counting schoolchildren) say they use it
daily, according to the latest census figures. In the Gaeltacht, 60,000
people employ it each day.

But at a restaurant in An Spideal called An t'Sean Ceibh (The Old Pier),
where a fresh sea breeze wafted through the sunlit bar as patrons sipped
pints and ate Irish stew, Soracha Ni Chonghaile admitted that she wasn't
always among those.

"It's dying," the 23-year-old waitress said of the language. "I would speak
it with my family and with the older customers who come in here, but I don't
speak it with my friends. It's not the norm."

O Cuirreain, however, believes that Irish, in contrast to the vast majority
of the 6,800 other languages in the world, is on course to survive at least
through the next century - thanks to continued government support and its
core of thousands of Irish men and women who still use the language daily in
their lives.

"We should not be complacent about that . but we should take a certain
degree of comfort that we have a fighting chance," he said in a telephone
interview.

Why all the effort to keep Irish alive when the world seems to be converging
on English? That tongue is not only the language of international business
and technology, but also Ireland's most commonly spoken since at least the
mid-19th century.

"The Irish language has been spoken for thousands of years," O Cuirreain
said. "It is the language of the hearts and minds of peoples for generations
in this country.. To lose that would be unthinkable, as far as I'm
concerned."

Because of the influx of non-Irish-speakers propelled by Ireland's economic
boom, however, the language is threatened even in the Gaeltacht, said
Nollaigh O Muraile, a professor of Irish studies at the National University
of Ireland in Galway.

"Two things are pressing on it: One is English culture through the media and
World Wide Web, and the other is the housing developments stretching out
right up into the Gaeltacht area," O Muraile said. "The language is being
diluted."

Children speak Irish in the classroom, but English is the language during
recess.

Partly offsetting the trend, however, is a vibrant community of people who
have taken up Irish on their own initiative.

Residents protective of their language in An Spideal have recently demanded
that a developer devote most of his 17-home project to people who can pass a
test in Irish and show they are dedicated to the language.

The national planning appeals board gave a mixed ruling Friday. It said it
was too late to impose the mandate on the development, which had already
received preliminary approval without any language rule.

But the board said such requirements could be made of developers in the
future, both in the An Spideal area and other parts of the Gaeltacht. The
rules could mandate that new housing developments maintain the same
proportion of Irish- and English-speaking residents as in the surrounding
areas.

The dispute over the 17 homes was complicated, with the developer asking
that the language requirement be lifted and some townspeople demanding an
even tougher restriction, O Cuirreain said.

"It's one of those things where you'd need half the Los Angeles Times to
explain it, on a good day," he said with a laugh.

But the key point, he added, is that planners had endorsed the principle.
"It's a step being taken to protect the linguistic integrity of those
areas," he said.

Retired teacher O Cualain said he was glad about the changes but discouraged
at young people's apparent lack of dedication to the language.

"When I went to school, we spoke nothing but Irish going and coming," he
said in a soft, sad brogue. "Even those who didn't know the language, if
they came here, they picked it up by listening. But nowadays, I very seldom
hear the young people speaking it."

Some commentators have questioned whether it is a losing battle to keep the
language alive through government policy.

Alan Ruddock, a columnist writing in the Sunday Times of London, took on O
Cuirreain last month, challenging the need to force-feed the language to
schoolchildren.

He said the Irish Republic was willing to pay only "expensive lip service" -
costly schooling, subsidized Irish-language radio and television and
"often-garbled" Irish at the start of major political speeches.

"But in no way are we serious about promoting Irish in every aspect of
national life. Nor should we be," he wrote. "Ireland is not bilingual. We
are an English-speaking country, have been from the moment we gained
independence and were for a century before.

"Nothing O Cuirreain does will change that, and neither will anything in the
Official Languages Act. If Irish is to survive, then it must be freed from
the albatross of compulsion."

O Muraile said he saw encouraging signs. Ireland's newfound prosperity, and
the pride rising with the "Celtic tiger" economy, is making it "almost a
trendy thing to speak Irish."

But in the Gaeltacht itself, it is diminishing as an everyday language.

"I don't know what the future holds, but perhaps we have to exist as a
second language," he said. "In a way, it has been a misfortune of Ireland to
come up against the most powerful language the world has ever seen."

(BEGIN TEXT OF INFOBOX)

Gaelic revival

The Gaeltacht, areas of Ireland where Gaelic is extensively
spoken, includes portions of seven counties.
English and Gaelic are vastly different languages. Here's how they look, for
example, in a comparison of the Lord's Prayer:
-
Ar nAthair ata ar neamh,
Our father, who art in heaven,
-
go naofar d'ainm;
hallowed be thy name;
-
go dtaga do riocht,
thy kingdom come,
-
go ndeantar do thoil ar an talamh
thy will be done on earth
-
mar a dheantar ar neamh.
as it is in heaven.
-
Ar n-aran laethuil tabhair duinn inniu,
Give us this day our daily bread,
-
agus maith duinn ar bhfiacha
and forgive us our trespasses
-
mar a mhaithimidne dar bhfeichiuna fein.
as we forgive those who trespass xxagainst us.
-
Agus na lig sinn i gcathu,
And lead us not into temptation,
-
ach saor sinn o olc. Amen.
but deliver us from evil. Amen.
*
Sources: http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com , http://www.iol.ie , ESRI.
Graphics reporting by Tom Reinken

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 20:32:34 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:32:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.04.24 (04) [E/French]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.133234.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Place names

From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
To: <lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 3:30 PM
Subject: Place names
> La Voix du Nord started today with a weekly etymological clarification of
> place namens in French Flanders.
> Below: the first article.

Here comes the second part,
Regards,
Roger

Actualite / Hazebrouck / Page 4 / Article 2
Edition du Dimanche 24 Avril 2005

De Buysscheure ?  Godewaersvelde Les noms des communes de Flandre
int??rieure (2)

Nous poursuivons notre d??couverte de l'origine des noms de communes de
Flandre int??rieure, par ordre alphab??tique. et toujours sans pr??tendre
pouvoir apporter une r??ponse s??re ?  toutes les questions qui se posent!

Buysscheure. - Si la partie buys (bois, for??t) ne pose pas de probl??me, le
terme scheure ou schure peut, lui, ??tre traduit de deux fa??ons: grange ou
d??frichement. Buysscheure est ainsi la grange du bois ou le bois d??frich??.

Caestre. - Un nom qui vient tout droit du latin castrum et qui rappelle l'
existence d'un camp militaire romain.

Cassel. - Encore une origine romaine, puisque Cassel vient du latin
castellum (ch??teau). Un site d??fensif ??tait install?? sur cette hauteur, d'o??
partaient des voies romaines.

Le Doulieu. - On trouve trace, au XIIIesi??cle, d'une chapelle appel??e Dulcis
Locus Beatae Mariae, c'est-? -dire Doux Lieu de la bienheureuse Marie. Du
doux lieu au Doulieu, il n'y a qu'un pas.

Ebblinghem. - C'est probablement la demeure (hem) des descendants (ing) d'un
chef nomm?? Hubald ou Humbald.

Eecke. - Vient du flamand eek (ch??ne). Le village aurait ainsi ??t?? nomm?? en
souvenir de saint Wulmar, dont la paroisse porte le nom. Ce religieux aurait
v??cu durant quelques jours ?  cet endroit dans un ch??ne creux.

Estaires. - Un cas ??pineux! Pour certains, le nom de la commune d??rive de
Eti Terra ou Aetti Terra, soit la terre du g??n??ral romain Aetius. Pour d'
autres, il faut y voir une marque des mots celtiques ess (pr??s), ter
(rivi??re) et re (deux), c'est-? -dire un endroit situ?? pr??s de deux rivi??res,
en l'occurrence la Lys et la Lawe.
L'ancien nom de la commune (Stegers) a donn?? lieu ?  d'autres hypoth??ses: il
viendrait du mot latin scala transform?? localement en steig, ce qui
signifierait mont??e (peut-??tre de la Lys vers Cassel); il pourrait aussi
??tre issu de la germanisation du latin strata (route), Estaires ??tant situ??
sur une voie romaine; ou, pourquoi pas, faire r??f??rence au mot celtique
steer ou sterr (rivi??re que l'on peut passer ?  gu??), ce qui ??quivaudrait ?  l
'ancien nom latin d'Estaires, Minariacum (venant lui-m??me de minor aqua ,
eau de moindre profondeur). Toujours dans le domaine de l'eau, Stegers
pourrait venir du flamand steg, ou pont de bois au-dessus de l'eau.

Fl??tre. - L?  aussi, l'??tymologie du nom du village semble ??tre li??e ?  l'eau.
Que l'on examine le latin (fletrinium ou fluctus) ou le flamand (vleteren ou
vliet), on a l?  des termes qui d??signent un petit cours d'eau, connu sous le
nom de becque de Fl??tre, pr??s duquel se serait d??velopp?? le village.

Godewaersvelde. - Il s'agit du champ (veld en flamand) dans lequel s'est
install?? ou illustr?? un personnage du nom, selon diff??rents auteurs, de
Gohard (le saint bien connu ?  Arn??ke), Godefried, Gaudefroit, Godewaert ou
Godoald.

J.-P.V.
(?  suivre)

Suite ?  notre article de dimanche dernier, Jacques Messiant, qui a effectu??
de nombreuses recherches sur le pass?? de la Flandre, nous a indiqu?? que le
nom de Bail-leul pourrait ??galement ??tre issu du mot bailliage, un terme qui
d??signait au Moyen ??ge la circonscription plac??e sous la responsabilit?? d'un
bailli nomm?? par le roi.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Apr 24 21:23:24 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:23:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.24 (05) [D/E/S]
Message-ID: <SUN.24.APR.2005.142324.0700.>

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=======================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.23 (02) [E/M.English/Gothic]

Arthur wrote: "

Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> wrote: This encourages me to make
further attempts to write whatever --thingwy-- in one or another of the
Lowlands tongues.."
Ja, ek stem saam. Ek bin willig om te probeer. Ek begryp Afrikaans en 'n
bitje Nederlands, en ook Duits, maar die andere tale kenne ek niet. Wij
kannen meskien 'n nuwe "Lowlands Esperanto" (Saamhoop?)erfinden?
"There is no really compelling reason why us Sassenacks simply MUST use
English, only vanity..."

Niet noodsaaklik edelheid (???); meskien onwetenheid of skaamheid (???)

Paul

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: anniversary pages

The "help" gives:
"The sound files presented on this website are brought to you in the popular
mp3 format, which makes it possible to compress audio samples to an
acceptable file size. Even so, some older computers or computers with slow
internet access may need some time to download these files.
When opening a language page, you will immediately see if there?s a sound
file available for that language. (In some cases there are more than one.)
If so, you can either choose to listen to the sound file within the browser
(using the ?Play? button on the sound bar), or you can download the mp3 file
directly onto your computer (using the ?Download mp3? link)."

But on the page I wrote in Limburgish / Vliermaal I do not find any sound
file.
Is there a delay in set-up?
Was there a selection?
Or is it lost and do I have to resend it?

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.21 (03) [E]

Fit like, fella Laalaunners!

A hiv teen a keek at a puckle o the "Anivarsarie Introducshans", an hiv a
wee correcshan tae the Inglis varshan o Waki-san's Intro. A hiv niver haen
the plezhuir o meetin him, but A think he dinnae bide in "Chaba" (???!) -
fit A canna fin on onie o ma monie maps - but in "CHIBA" (??), fit is richt
nearhaun by the Disnae ... Na, nicht the Inver-Disnae o Matthew Fitt's _But
n Ben A Go-Go_, but Tokyo Disnae-Laun.

(The Japanese, German an Laa Saxon varshans aa hae Chiba".)

Mike Morgan
KCUFS

P.S. Sorry Sandy for slaughtering the language. (^u^)

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.23 (02) [E/M.English/Gothic]

Ron wrote:
> Maye Youre moste humble seruant propone conseil wth Hure Mageste the
Queene
> of thessaid Indies-Nutes Galleryes Reaume, oure most Dere and Cheryshyd
> Ladie and Mistresse seurly beynge famuler wth comptlesse iolyf and lustie
> mony-whats, histories and eschaunges in thes Compaignys longe bygane tyme.

Said Queene is in the process of moving, drowning in bulky boxes, countless
old paperbacks, and all the dust from behind the shelves. Actually, starting
tomorrow night, she will be completely offline for a week. Maybe others have
time to dig through the archive... as for one of the gems of the board, I
vote for the introduction of Middelsprake. I also very much enjoyed the
recent whatchermacallit thread, even though I had no time to participate.
Maybe some of the parts about holiday traditions might be nice examples,
too. And what about that thread regarding old Lowlandic children's games?

Gabriele Kahn
Queen of the Packing Peanuts

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Roger (above):

> Is there a delay in set-up?

Roger, yes, as mentioned, the sound file production is somewhat slow-going
and slowed down, due in part to our Henry having his hands more than full
and partly because it takes some time to get files converted, edited and
reduced in size.  I can't say for sure if Henry received yours (since he's
been having some problems getting list mailings on top of it).  I suggest
you and others that are concerned about their sound files contact him
directly (Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>, and, as temporary
assurance, also to Henry Pijffers <henry at fair.source.org>).

Mike (above):

> "Chaba" (???!) - fit A canna fin on onie o ma monie maps - but in "CHIBA"
> (??)

Yes, thanks.  It was a typo of a team member's (who did not have the
knowledge to be aware that this would come out possibly meaning "tea leaves"
rather than "thousand/countless leaves").  I have corrected it in the
meantime.

Gabriele (above)

> Queen of the Packing Peanuts

Ah, well, I guess this is sufficient grounds for temporarily releaving her
of her queenly duties and leaving her to her mundane _travail du grunge_,
sad though the prospect of deprivation may appear at first.  Congratulations
on the move!  Hopefully we'll have an even happier Queene of the Reaume in
the future.

Talking about Queenes, I have added a Middle English translation of the Wren
story to the anniversary collection.  I welcome suggestions, preferably sent
to my private addess (<sassisch at yahoo.com>), unless there are issues that
would be of interest to the entire List.

For those of you who joined or rejoined us recently -- Welcome (back)! -- I
will add that we are talking about an online presentation on the occasion of
our thenth anniversary.  Please check it out if you have not already done
so:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

Please also seriously consider contributing texts, pictures and sound files
to it (to be sent to me (<sassisch at yahoo.com>).  Personal introductions
would be very much appreciated, irrespective of when you joined. You may
write it them in any language you wish, though an English version would be
appreciated, and help with it will be available.  And, no, you need not be
an expert in anything, and you need not feel intimidated in any way either.
We are a very accepting and embracing bunch.  In your introductions you may
write anything (socially acceptable and legal) about yourself you wish.
Just take a look at the diversity of the ones already posted
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=members).  Of course,
this appeal applies to everyone, including those that have made certain
ouvertures or promises ...

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 25 07:04:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:04:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.04.24 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.000414.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: ANNIVERSARY 2005 04 24

From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Dear Lowlanders,

I realize that it is already past midnight for many of
you, and even a new afternoon for others. But I wanted
to get in brief word about minority language, and
culture, and family, and memory, before the sun set
today at my door.

Today, April 24, was the 90th anniversary of the
Armenian Genocide. In 1915, as part of a desperate
attempt at territorial consolidation, the failing
Ottoman Empire began its terrible work of expelling,
shooting, stabbing, starving, and slaughtering one and
one-half million Armenian men, women, and children. It
placed millions more in an impoverished diaspora.

To all Armenian Lowlanders, and I trust there are
several, I would say _ts'avakts'um em_.

The Armenian Holocaust was of special relevance to all
of us Lowlanders, because it touches us more deeply
than it affects many others. We are, after all,
concerned with the survival of languages that, to
differing degrees, are all under threat of extinction.

Also, many of us live in our own, self-inflicted,
diasporas. We can feel what Armenians call _garoda_,
or a deep, inexplicable yearning for homeland that is
like the flame of a pilot light; a low, almost
imperceptible burning in the psyche. The Welsh call
the same thing _hiraeth_. Question to Ron: Can these
two be etymologically related? Do we have a
Proto-Indo-European root for it?

One of the after-effects of genocide, or its attempt,
is that children and grand-children are cut off from
their roots by assimilation into new cultures and
languages. Few regain their mother tongue.

An Armenian told me yesterday, "I feel Armenian, but I
don't want to live near Ararat". Similarly, the
anguish was expressed in a song, about twelve years
ago, by the Young Dubliners: "It's a long, long way
from Claire to here."

Preserving languages necessitates making them live and
vibrate like guitar strings. It is never a simple
choice between the shackles of protectionism (like
taking all the fun out of Boarisch/Bavarian), or the
anarchy of globalization.

Our most powerful tool is memory: _hishoghut'yun_.
As we express our condolences to Hayastan, we should
also feel some satisfaction that all of you,
Lowlanders, are recording and remembering as we
travel.

Shnoragalut'yun.

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 25 07:44:33 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:44:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.004433.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Dag, Lowlanners, Ragnhart,

(English below)

na- Jii hannen mi jo 'n feinen Themen! Snackt Ji doch ?ver 'schieten" un'
'scheeten', oon Innen!

Uns V?r?llern w?ssen all, wor?m se dat s?lvig Woord nohmen hannen- een Doun,
wat dat uut dennen Achtersten or v??rn bi dat Scheetgeweer ruut keem! Is
j?mmer Schiet.

De l?tten 'Schietb?dels' van vandoog weet dat meist noch beeter: keen ne
recht mitsnacken kann, is 'n 'Schietoors', un keen mit Kluten no jem smieten
deit, kann ook woll "Kl??tenschieter" heeten. Keen tau kloug is, heet
'Klougschieter', un dennen sch??lt se woll wat 'schieten'.
'n 'Schietkeerl' is door denn meist ook j?mmer mang.

Junge- wat 'n schiet Themen!

Man- un dissen 'grouden Schiet' schall ick ook noch ?versetten?

Ick schiet Jau wat!

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

PS: Al disse W??r kanns't un' d?rffst opp "Platt" bruuken; schall Dii woll
meist n?mms f??r ?vel neem'n. Man- verseuk dat all me Leev ne opp
Hougdyytsch- kann's' 'n B?lt Arger kriig'n!
Is dat ook f??r anner "Neddersaksische" g?llich, villicht ook f??r Scots?
D.S.

***

Dear Lowlanders, Ronny,

he- within my short abscence You made some conversation on a very "stinking"
theme! Talking about 'shit' and 'shoot'.

Our ancients already knew why to use the same word for two slightly
different things- it really doesn't matter where the 'shit' is coming from:
either from any back of the human anatomy or from the mouth of a gun! It's
just real shit, still in our days!

Those little 'nappy-children" of today are supposed to know even better:
those being unable to get around in these facts are
'people-not-able-to-understand', 'silly', 'stupid', at any respect 'bad
characters'. And- those ones throwing bowls [of mud] after the little ones
are called 'dirt-flingers'.

People being too clever are supposed to 'shit' intelligence, and specially
that sort of human beings they like to cut dead, to avoid ("to snit",
perhaps??).

Have a look around Yourself- You'll always find anyone You despise, but You
don't hate.

Oh, man, what a f... theme!

And just me, poorest of all people as far as modern, readable English is
concerned, shall try to translate all this "bullshit"?

I fear I have to disguise You!

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

PS: All these above words and idioms you are allowed to use in our
LS-dialect-  no real-native will become angry at all. But- You should never
try the same in "High" German! Things then will not run the expected way,
no, not at all!
Is it the same in other LS-regions, perhaps in Scots, too?
T.S.

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Etymology" 2005.04.23 (01) [E]

Hi all,

Ben, the 'what the mother' is also used in Afrikaans as "Wat de moer!?"
where 'moer'
denotes mother/uterus/origin.

And Ron/Heather re. KWIK, the 'kwikstertjie' is our Bachstelze/wagtail. and
'verkwik' means to refresh in Afrikaans.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

[Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
I have a very peculiar way of saying "What the hell/f/..." I say, "What the
mother?" Is that just my extreme strangeness, or does anybody say anything
like that?]

[Old Saxon:kwik: alive, lively, life (adj.)]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Haai, Elsie!

> And Ron/Heather re. KWIK, the 'kwikstertjie' is our
> Bachstelze/wagtail. and 'verkwik' means to refresh in Afrikaans.

In some Low Saxon, too, you say _kwiksteyrt_ (<Quicksteert>) for 'wagtail'
(_Motacillidae_, by default usually _Motacilla alba_ 'white wagtail' in
Northern Europe).

In other dialects there are _wipsteyrt_ (<Wippsteert>) and _w?psteyrt_
(<W?ppsteert>) in reference to the wagging or twitching tail of the bird.
You can also use these to refer to restless children or to anyone who can't
be still.

And yet another name (in the northwest, I believe) is _akker-mantje_
(<Ackermanntje> "(little) husbandman") and the specific variants _blau
akker-mantje_ (<Blauackermanntje> "blue (little) husbandman" _Motacilla
cinerea_?) and _geel akker-mantje_ (<Geelackermanntje> "yellow (little)
husbandman"_Motacilla flava_).

Nursery rhyme:

   Ackermanntje, wipp up Steert!
   Well hett di dat Wippen lehrt?

   Akker-mantje, wip up steyrt!
   Wel het dy dat wippen leyrd?

   Willie Wagtail, wag your tail!
   Who has taught you how to wag?

Marlou Lessing has a whole Low Saxon web page about the bird:
http://www.marless.de/natur/sunn04_04.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 25 07:50:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:50:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.25 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.005045.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.24 (05) [D/E/S]

Paul, there IS already Middelsprake, a <<Lowlands Esperanto>>, i.e. a
common germanic language!  I'll send you the file <<Concise Outlines of
Middelsprake>>

Ingmar

>From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
>Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.23 (02) [E/M.English/Gothic]

>Ja, ek stem saam. Ek bin willig om te probeer. Ek begryp Afrikaans en 'n
>bitje Nederlands, en ook Duits, maar die andere tale kenne ek niet. Wij
>kannen meskien 'n nuwe "Lowlands Esperanto" (Saamhoop?)erfinden?
>"There is no really compelling reason why us Sassenacks simply MUST use
>English, only vanity..."
>
>Niet noodsaaklik edelheid (???); meskien onwetenheid of skaamheid (???)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Well, our anniversary presentation is beginning to get noticed.  Someone who
just joined us (Welcome!) was nice enough to add the following to his
application:

"I have just listened to and read some of the variants of the story,
\"Wren\". This was very interesting. It is one thing to read a language, but
to hear it as well, well, that is interesting. Bravo to the guy who came up
with the idea."

I guess this kudos is meant for our Gary (Taylor).

Thanks for the comment!  Please note that more sound files will follow.

OK, folks, let's keep working on it!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Apr 25 20:56:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:56:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.25 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.135623.0700.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.24 (03) [E]


Dear Lowlanders

This article about Irish just sounds too similar of what I have seen and
heard concerning Maori in New Zealand, is Hebrew really going to be the only
language successfully revived? To a certain degree we could perhaps count
Latvian as enjoying a revival because it is now the working language in the
streets of Riga, I have not encountered any shopkeeper or or official who
would not understand and respond in Latvian though many of them are of
Russian origin, my Latvian friends would never speak to any shopkeeper or
official in Russian these days though that was different 15 years ago. The
trend towards Russian has indeed reversed, the reason are probably various,
the fact that Latvian is in Latin script in contrast to Russian might help
because that makes it easier to learn from there the "world language"
English. Perhaps all that would have been different if Latvia had remained a
part of a Russian-dominated state for another 100 years or so, perhaps we
woul d then witness what happened to Irish, Maori, Low Saxon etc.to Latvian
as well. 50 years of Russian dominance was obviously not enough to make a
substantial change.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks, Helge.

It's interesting you mentioned the example of Latvian.  It brings up the
question as to what extent language reassertion efforts can and should be
taken.

Please do not misunderstand me.  I am just wondering about it and about what
others feel, and I feel we need to examine several sides of the issue.  Is
it a case of "desperate times require desperate measures" and "all that
counts is survival"?  I think that this may be an area where language rights
and human rights clearly touch each other and may even clash with each
other, and different countries will view sa given situation differently
depending on their particular visions of human rights and democracy.

Under the Soviet system, Russian clearly muffled and suffocated other
languages, much like other power languages in multilingual political
structures have been doing.  The Soviet system, despite a Russification and
"denationalization" agenda, at least payed lip service to regional and
minority languages and made them official, which can not be said of other
countries, including some in the West.  Especially the closely related
languages (namely Belarusian and Ukrainian) lost scores of speakers because
the education and media systems favored this and transition from them to
Russian is relatively easy.  While the *main* languages of the newly
independent states now have a chance to reassert themselves, the languages
of Russia, even within the autonomous regions, are still giving way to
Russian. However, the minority languages of the former Soviet republics are
now being eaten away at by the official non-Russian power languages.  These
are not just the indigenous languages (such as Livonian in the case of
Latvia) but also Russian, Ukrainian and other imported "colonial" languages,
even though in several cases Russian is not an actual minority language,
just a quasi-minority, formerly powerful and now officially undesirable
language.

While it is certainly understandable that language reassertion requires
restructuring of the education and communication systems, among others, you
have to ask yourself how far you can go in restricting people's linguistic
rights, and this means *all* people, including Russians and Russified
non-Russians.  Should we relapse and go for payback for their ancestors'
transgressions, saying "become *real* Latvians or get out"?  Very few
Russians in those nations *chose* to live there.  Do they not have the right
to use their language and retain their ethnicity? Should they not have the
right to have private media organizations that use Russian only?  Should
they not have the right to use Russian signage for their private businesses,
with Latvian as an auxiliary, much like Chinese businesses do all over the
world when they display signs in Chinese with auxiliary versions in the
various majority languages?  Unless things have changed since I last visited
there, public display of Chinese characters is illegal in Indonesia, not
display of Arabic, English or other languages.  Whichever way you turn it,
this is a blatantly discriminatory, anti-Chinese policy, and the reasons I
was given for this boil down to taking power away from the Chinese, forcing
them to become "real Indonesians," and "they had it coming after all they
did to us in concert with the Dutch."  When the Latvian language police
patrols the streets on the lookout for non-Latvian signage, focussing on
Russian signage, with other foreign signs or just words (e.g., "pizza,"
"hamburger" or "calzone") prohibited as an afterthought for the sake of
consistency -- does this not amount to pretty much the same type of
discrimination and thus to infringement of individuals' rights?  Is this not
a case of
"Acad?mie Fran?aise, Foras na Gaeilge, Comhdh?il N?isi?nta na Gaeilge,
?dar?s na Gaeltachta, etc. gone berserk"?

Requiring display of Irish along with English in Ireland is one thing.
Prohibiting the display of English and all other languages would be an
entirely different thing, would it not?

OK, so I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate here.  But think about it!
Honestly, I feel that discrimination is discrimination, irrespective of
who's the target.  I don't care if the discriminated "had it coming" in
popular opinion, especially if they are merely the heirs of the alleged
misdeeds and the undesirable heritage.  Where this sort of attitude of
revenge can land us can be figured out easily by going back just a few
decades or by looking all around us even now.  Is this the sort of thing we
want to be involved in?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

LATVIA TRIES TO FIGHT RUSSIAN LANGUAGE

--Lawmakers hope speech law can save nation's native tongue--

By Steven C. Johnson

_San Jose Mercury News_ 1/23/01

Riga, Latvia ? Contemporary Russian music is the rage in Latvia's capital,
but when listeners is the rage in Latvia's capital, but when listeners tuned
in for their daily dose of dance tracks on popular radio station they got
nothing but dead air.

Radio Bizness and Baltic was silenced for three days, caught in the
cross-fire of a battle to defend the Latvian language from extinction.

The law requires 75 percent of all commercials and chat to be in Latvian,
but Radio Bizness' target audience is Russians living in Latvia, says Ivo
Bankavs, its chief engineer. "They want to know what's new in Russian music;
they want to keep up with trends in Moscow; and they want DJs to speak
Russian."

The station is now in court fighting to keep its license.

The struggle stems from the fear of ethnic Latvians that their language may
be swamped by Russian. Nearly 40 percent of the country's 2.4 million people
use Russian as their main language, and often speak little or no Latvian at
all, so the government is aggressively promoting Latvian with tough laws on
public speech.

In the neighboring Baltic republic of Lithuania, whose language is similar
to Latvian, such worries are less pronounced, perhaps because nearly 85
percent of the people are ethnic Lithuanians.

Estonia, whose native tongue is a close cousin to Finnish, has similar
language laws to Latvia's, but also seems less anxious. Seventy percent of
its people are ethnic Estonians.

The Soviet Union annexed Latvia in 1940, and the Latvian language was
overwhelmed by Russian during the country's five decades as a Soviet
republic. Soon after the Soviet Union crumbled in 1991, Latvian-only signs
went up and bilingual Soviet-era signs in Cyrillic were crudely scratched
out.

But many towns and villages remain predominantly Russian, and TV viewers in
Latvia can tune directly Moscow channels.

The language law requires Latvian to be used at public events, and a
government body devises Latvian equivalents to replace borrowed foreign
words. A language police corps tries to ensure that everyone from doctors to
bus drivers speaks enough Latvian to do their jobs.

Eighteen inspectors roam the country, making surprise visits to police
departments or hailing taxi cabs to test the drivers' Latvian skills. Last
year, more than 3,000 inspections were made, and 2,500 people were fined
from one to 50 lats, or less than $2 to $80, a healthy chunk of the average
monthly wage of $240.

The government says the inspectors often let offenders off with a warning,
and insists they have so far never forced anyone out of a job or permanently
closed a business.

"I am 100 percent sure that we must regulate these because this is the only
place in all the world where the Latvian language can survive," said Baldurs
Apinis, vice chairman of the radio and television council, which wants to
shut down Radio Bizness.

Many Russians say that even when they try to learn Latvian, they are
resented.

"The language is used as a stick to beat us," said Aleksandrs Rhzavin, an
ethnic Russian who belongs to a group that campaigns for expanded cultural
rights for Russians.

Russian speakers claim the law is often used to silence unpopular views.

In 1997, Russian schoolteachers Anatonia Ignatane, a critic of government
policy to close Russian schools, campaigned for a seat on the Riga City
Council. Just before the election, language inspectors claimed her Latvian
skills were not up to holding public office.

"The laws are applied very selectively," said left-wing lawmaker Boris
Cilevics, a Russian-speaker who helped Ignatane take discrimination
allegations to the U.N. Human Rights Committee, where a finding is pending.
"If there's someone they want to punish, they just find fault with his
language abilities."

During Soviet times, many Latvians feared their language would one day die.
Philologist Ieva Zuicena, who co-wrote the language law, compiled a Latvian
dictionary in the 1970s and reflected that she was "writing a monument to a
soon-to-be lost language."

Now officials feel they have a second chance, even if they can't restore the
times when Latvians and their language were dominant.

They're certainly not dominant anymore.

The Soviets imposed a Russiciation policy that brought thousands of Russian
and Ukranian workers to Latvia to work in factories and stamp out
nationalist sentiment.

In Daugavpils, Latvia's largest city after Riga, Russians make up 87 percent
of the population and you can go days without hearing a word of Latvian.
Still, every street sign is in Latvian, as are announcements at the bus
station.

Though many Russians remain monolingual, waiters and shop assistants often
will use Latvian, or at least broken Latvian, before resorting to Russian or
English.

Latvian also has become the language of business and higher education, and
Russians need it to get good jobs.

"The idea that we don't want to learn Latvian, that we're lazy is a myth,"
said Leonids Raihmans, a Russian civil rights campaigner. "We just don't
want to become Latvian and abandon our culture."

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 02:26:17 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:26:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.25 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.192617.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: spelling

A new spelling adjustment for Dutch is anounced in the papers.

Quote from "De Standaard"

25 april 2005
18:37:47

Ook Surinaamse woorden in nieuw Groen Boekje
Meer verscheidenheid en toch meer eenheid in standaardspelling

      BREDA - Handknie, oftewel elleboog is ??n van de ongeveer 500
Surinaamse woorden die in het nieuwe Groene Boekje zullen staan. De nieuwe
uitgave van de Woordenlijst Nederlandse Taal, zoals het boekje officieel
heet, komt er in oktober. Er zal overigens weinig veranderen aan de
standaardspelling van de Nederlandse taal. Wel werd in de nieuwe editie naar
meer eenduidigheid gestreefd.

      De ministers van de Nederlandse Taalunie hebben vandaag in Breda de
voorstellen voor de nieuwe Woordenlijst Nederlandse taal goedgekeurd. Voor
het eerst zijn daarin ook een aantal woorden opgenomen die in het Nederlands
van Suriname worden gebruikt, zoals schuier (Surinaams voor tandenborstel),
handknie (elleboog) of okseltruitje (mouwloos t-shirt). Suriname is immers
sinds vorig jaar lid van de Nederlandse Taalunie, naast Belgi? en Nederland.

      Ook het aantal Belgisch-Nederlandse woorden in de lijst is uitgebreid.
Nieuwe "Belgische" trefwoorden zijn achterpoortje, brugpensioenleeftijd en
trein-tram-busdag. Uit de lijst zijn ook een aantal in onbruik geraakte
woorden verdwenen. Het gaat onder meer om aalgeer, behoef en diergelijk.
Heel wat samenstellingen zonder spellingprobleem zijn ook uit de lijst
gehaald. Zo telde de editie van 1995 meer dan 130 samenstellingen met geld-,
nu zijn dat er nog een dertigtal.

      Verder zijn ook een aantal woorden uit de lijst met versteende
samenstellingen geschrapt en worden die nu met tussen-n geschreven. Zo is
het voortaan dronkenlap, dronkenman en paddenstoel.

      Een spellingregel over de tussen-n is meteen ook de enige
systematische aanpassing. Want voor de nieuwe editie mochten de
spellingregels an sich niet veranderen. Door de kleine wijziging krijgen
samenstellingen met een dierennaam als eerste deel en een plantkundige
aanduiding als tweede, zoals paardenbloem, voortaan wel een tussen-n.

      Om meer eenvormigheid te krijgen, zijn er enkele wijzigingen
doorgevoerd aan het gebruik van hoofdletters. Volkennamen krijgen nu ook een
hoofletter, zodat je tegenwoordig Azteek, Eskimo en Kelt moet schrijven. Ten
slotte is ook gewerkt aan het eenduidiger maken van een aantal Engelse
samenstellingen: fullcolour wordt full colour, eye-opener wordt eyeopener
(er is geen klinkerbotsing) pull-over wordt pullover en on line wordt
online.

      De spelling volgens de nieuwe woordenlijst zal op 1 augustus 2006
ingevoerd worden in Vlaanderen en Nederland en zal dus in het onderwijs van
kracht zijn vanaf het schooljaar 2006-2007.

25/04/2005 - dba

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 02:30:49 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:30:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.25 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.193049.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (07) [E/LS]

When did we lose shat?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

How nice to see that some organizations still practise common courtesy!

Please see below, regarding my proposal about "ron".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

 From: "OED3" oed3 at oup.com
To:  arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com, sassisch at yahoo.com

 Dear Sirs,

Many thanks for the e-mail on the etymology of 'ron n./1' which you
copied to the Oxford English Dictionary. I have passed it on to our files
for attention when work begins in this part of the alphabet.

Best wishes,

Fiona McPherson
Senior Editor OED.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 03:44:11 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:44:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.04.25 (05) [E/Turkish]
Message-ID: <MON.25.APR.2005.204411.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Dear Lowlanders,

This is indeed a time of many anniversaries.  Included is the current 90th
anniversary of the battle of Gallipoli/Kilitbahir, Gelibolu, Turkey, during
which thousands and thousands of Australians, New Zealanders and Turks were
massacred.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

   AND THE BAND PLAYED WALTZING MATILDA

   By Eric Bogle

   Now when I was a young man I carried me pack
   And I lived the free life of the rover.
   From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback,
   Well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
   Then in 1915, my country said, "Son,
   It's time you stop ramblin', there's work to be done."
   So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
   And they marched me away to the war.

      And the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
      As the ship pulled away from the quay,
      And amidst all the cheers, the flag waving, and tears,
      We sailed off for Gallipoli.

   And how well I remember that terrible day,
   How our blood stained the sand and the water;
   And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
   We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
   Johnny Turk, he was waitin', he primed himself well;
   He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell --
   And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
   Nearly blew us right back to Australia.

      But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
      When we stopped to bury our slain,
      Well, we buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
      Then we started all over again.

   And those that were left, well, we tried to survive
   In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
   And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive
   Though around me the corpses piled higher.
   Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
   And when I woke up in me hospital bed
   And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead --
   Never knew there was worse things than dying.

      For I'll go no more "Waltzing Matilda,"
      All around the green bush far and free -
      To hump tents and pegs, a man needs both legs,
      No more "Waltzing Matilda" for me.

   So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
   And they shipped us back home to Australia.
   The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane,
   Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
   And as our ship sailed into Circular Quay,
   I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
   And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
   To grieve, to mourn and to pity.

      But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
      As they carried us down the gangway,
      But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
      Then they turned all their faces away.

   And so now every April, I sit on my porch
   And I watch the parade pass before me.
   And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
   Reviving old dreams of past glory,
   And the old men march slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
   They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
   And the young people ask "What are they marching for?"
   And I ask meself the same question.

***

   DUR YOLCU!

   Necmettin Halil Onan

   Dur yolcu! Bilmeden gelip bast???n,
   Bu toprak, bir devrin batt??? yerdir.
   E?il de kulak ver bu sessiz y???n
   Bir vatan kalbinin att??? yerdir.

   Bu ?ss?z, g?lgesiz yolun sonunda,
   G?rd???n bu t?msek, Anadolu?nda
   ?stiklal u?runa, namus yolunda,
   Can veren Mehmet?in yatt??? yerdir.

   Bu t?msek, koparken b?y?k zelzele
   Son vatan par?as? ge?erken ele
   Mehmet?in d??man? bo?du?u sele
   M?barek kan?n? katt??? yerdir.

   D???n ki ha?rolan kan, kemik, etin
   Yapt??? bu t?msek amans?z ?etin
   Bir harbin sonunda b?t?n milletin
   H?rriyet zevkini tatt??? yerdir.

***

   STOP, TRAVELER!

   By Necmettin Halil Onan
   Draft Translation by R. F. Hahn

   Stop, traveler! Foreign to you this ground
   On which you tread, an era spread.
   Stoop low and hark, for this still mound
   Is where a nation's heart heaves sighs.

   To the left this desolate path with no shade,
   Anatolia's slope, examine it well,
   For it's freedom and honor regained in pain,
   Where Mehmet lay down his life, was slain.

   This self-same mound, when the earth did quake,
   When the last inch of dirt passed to and fro,
   When Mehmet drowned with force the foe,
   Is where he spilled his very blood.

   Where the sacred blood and flesh and bone
   Mounts high and higher, a people at home,
   After ruthless and merciless warfare alone,
   Tasted liberty's bliss and elation.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 15:22:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.082209.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.25 (04) [E]


Ben Bloomgren wrote:
"When did we lose shat?"

We haven't. In most of England it remains the past tense of the verb "to
shit". It even appears to have become more popular over the last twenty
years in my experience. Northern English and Hiberno-English forms are based
on _shite_ - e.g., past tense _shite_ and _shat_, and _shit_ as a weak past
tense along the lines of _driv_ for _drove_.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Cr?ost?ir (above):


> Ben Bloomgren wrote:
> "When did we lose shat?"
>
> We haven't.

Not English as a whole but American English, certainly the dialects within
the standard range.  The same goes for "spat" (preterite of "spit").  People
look at me strangely when I say "spat," so I'm caught somewhere between
wanting to stop it and not being able to bring myself to saying "spit" for
the preterite.  "Shat" and "spat" are considered quite alien, and some
people won't even know what they mean.

By the way, this also goes for the pronunciation "at" for "ate."  I've
always found that strange myself and don't say it.  I suppose it is derived
from a variant with a short vowel: _atte_ ['at@] vs _ate_ ['a:t@].

Low Saxon (North Saxon):

shit: schyten > schyt - scheyt - scheyten
        (schieten > schiet - scheet - scheten)
        ['Si:t=n] > [Si:t] - [SEIt] - ['SEIt=n]
        Pres.: ik schyt [Si:t], du schitst [SItst], hey schitt [SIt],
             wy schytt [Si:t] ~ schyten ['Si:t=n]

shoot: scheyten > scheyt - schoyt~schout - schoyten~schouten~schaten
        (scheten > scheet - sch??t~schoot - sch?ten~schoten~schaten)
        ['SEIt=n]  > [SEIt] - [S9It] ~ [SOUt] - ['S9It=n] ~ ['SOUt=n] ~
[S@:t=n]
        Pres.: ik scheyt [SEIt] - du sch?tst [SYtst] - hey sch?tt [SYt] -
             wy scheytt [SEIt] ~ scheyten ['SEIt=n]

sit: sitten > seyt - sat - seten
        (sitten > seet - satt - seten)
        ['zIt=n] > [zEIt] - [zat] - ['ze:t=n]
        Pres.: ik sit [zIt], du sitst [zItst], hey sitt [zIt], wy sitt [zIt]
~ sitten ['zIt=n]

eat: eten > eet - eyt - eyten
        (eten > eet - eet - eten)
        [e:t=n] > [e:t] - [EIt] - ['e:t=n]
        pres.: ik eet [e:t], du itst [Itst], hey itt [It], wy eett [e:t] ~
eten ['e:t=n]

NB: [e:] ~ [E:], [EI] ~ [aI], [OU] ~ [aU], [9I] ~ [OI], [@:] ~ [o:] ~ [a:]
depending on dialect

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 15:34:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:34:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.083445.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.25 (02) [E]


Ron wrote:
"Please do not misunderstand me. I am just wondering about it and about what
others feel, and I feel we need to examine several sides of the issue. Is it
a case of "desperate times require desperate measures" and "all that counts
is survival"? I think that this may be an area where language rights and
human rights clearly touch each other and may even clash with each other..."

This is certainly the case. I think of Latvia and Latvian as something of a
special case, because of the influx of Russophone Soviet settlers that
almost reduced Latvians to a minority (if Latvia had been in the Soviet
Union another ten years I believe this would have taken place) and
endangered the survival of Latvian. There is little chance that Latvian
could have achieved its present pre-eminent status in Latvia if Russian had
remained a co-official language. Many of the Russophones were openly
anti-Latvian language, and saw no social, political or economic advantage in
obtaining any Latvian. Now that cannot be said to be the case.

Another comparison might be with English immigrants to Wales. For decades
there was no need for English immigrants to Welsh-speaking areas to learn a
word of Welsh, because English was (and is) the dominant language of the UK.
However, things appear to be changing if census data are to be believed, and
a large number of those born outside Wales have acquired some skills in the
language. While much has to be done - especially with regard to second home
owners and the like - the reality is that Welsh is seen as a social,
political and economic asset today.

Ron also wrote:
"Requiring display of Irish along with English in Ireland is one thing.
Prohibiting the display of English and all other languages would be an
entirely different thing, would it not?"

Your statement raises two responses. Firstly, Irish is, under the
Constitution, the "national and first official language". Consequently, the
Government is legally beholden to give precedence to Irish. I say
"precedence" because the wording is "first" official language (English is
the "second"). Of course, the Irish Government does not follow its own rules
(and in fact finds inventive ways to circumnavigate those rules) so that
Irish is rarely used officially, and then only as an afterthought. Secondly,
I think prohibition of English on signage or other official uses in the
Gaeltacht, where the majority of the population is supposed to have Irish as
its daily language, is not only desirable but absolutely necessary. What,
otherwise, is the point in having a Gaeltacht than to uphold the usage -
both publicly and privately - of Irish as the main or only language of daily
communication?

It would be an easy and wonderful thing if Ireland became truly bilingual a
la Finland, Canada or Wales, but there's too many anti-Irish Irish [sic] -
especially in Government - for that to ever happen in my pessimistic
assessment. Irish is considered a useless family heirloom - pretty to look
at and remind us where we came from, but best left in the attic and not
shown to too many visitors.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir

-----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thank you very much for your well-worded response, Cr?ost?ir, and for
presenting another aspect to us.  It's good to have someone so well informed
about these matters on board.

I can certainly see why you would think of the Latvian case as a special,
pretty much desperate, case, although I still have serious reservations
regarding the thought of the language police banging on people's doors.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 15:36:40 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:36:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.083640.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.25 (03) [D/E]

Re " het groene boekje"

Roger Thijs quotes from the "Green Bible of Dutch Ortography"

MMM.... Paddenstoel? Ik wist niet dat we er daarvan hadden die groot
genoeg waren voor meer dan een pad tegelijk? Behalve dan misschien de
"vliegen(ge)zwam. Jacqueline

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 15:46:21 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:46:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.26 (04) [E/Germany]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.084621.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

I have received another response to our anniversary presentation and have
been given permission to pass it on to you.  Please find it below.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Olaf's website (with excellent Westphalian dialect resources):
http://home.wxs.nl/~obd/obo/platt/ned.htm

***

From: "Olaf Bordasch" <o.bordasch at planet.nl>
Subject:  Achterhooksk und Westf?lisch

Hallo Reinhard Hahn,

herzlichen Gl?ckwunsch zum zehnj?hrigen Bestehen von "Lowlands"!

Ich will nicht verhehlen, dass ich so meine Schwierigkeiten mit Lowlands
habe und mich h?ufiger dar?ber ?rgere. Dass ich regelm??ig die Beitr?ge im
Lowlands-Archiv lese, spricht aber f?r sich. - Und f?r Lowlands.

Langer Rede kurzer Sinn: Ich habe auf der Jubil?umsseite von Lowlands die
Geschichte vom Zaunk?nig in der Mundart des Achterhook gefunden und sie mir
mehrmals angeh?rt. Die Sache ist eindeutig: Achterhooksk ist Westf?lisch.

Folgende Gr?nde lassen sich anf?hren:

- Dass auch im Achterhook altlanges und tonlanges -a- unterschieden werden,
ist klar. Das war zu erwarten.

- Ebenso wie das Westm?nsterl?ndische hat auch das Achterhooksk fr?her
einmal die westf?lische Brechungen gekannt, hat sie aber zu verschiedenen
L?ngen und K?rzen weiterentwickelt. (W?re es Nieders?chsisch, w?ren anstelle
der Brechungen ausschlie?lich gedehnte Vokale zu erwarten, die zus?tzlich
noch gesenkt worden w?ren.)

Ich kann die Mundart von Winterswijk gut verstehen, und sie klingt mir
angenehm in der Ohren. Es l?sst sich aber nicht ?bersehen, dass auch diese
Grenzmundart schon vom Holl?ndischen beeinflusst wurde.

Ich bel?stige Sie v?llig ungebeten mit dieser E-mail, weil Sie vor einiger
Zeit in einer Antwort an Ingmar Roerdinkholder (glaube ich) die These
vertreten haben, "die Mundarten des Achterhooks und Twentes w?ren dem
Westf?lischen verwandt, so nicht Westf?lisch". - Genauso ging es mir, ich
war auch unsicher.

Was die Mundart von Winterswijk angeht, ist f?r die Sache f?r mich gekl?rt.

Das ist Westf?lisch und geh?rt in dieselbe Kategorie wie das
Westm?nsterl?ndische. (Nicht zu verwechseln mit dem M?nsterl?ndischen, das
die Brechung bewahrt hat.)

Vielen Dank also f?r die MP3-Aufnahme aus Winterswijk!

Gru?,

Olaf Bordasch

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 19:46:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:46:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (05) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.124609.0700.>

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From: ?j??r?kr ?j??reksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (03) [D/E]


>From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.25 (03) [D/E]
>
>Re " het groene boekje"
>
>Roger Thijs quotes from the "Green Bible of Dutch Ortography"
>
>MMM.... Paddenstoel? Ik wist niet dat we er daarvan hadden die groot
>genoeg waren voor meer dan een pad tegelijk? Behalve dan misschien
>de
>"vliegen(ge)zwam. Jacqueline

The old rule (making more sense IMHO) of -en when plural and -e when
singular, is no more. Now the rule is based upon the plurals that the word
can have. Eg. groentesoep, because groenten & groentes. But waardeoordeel
because only waarden exist, not waardes.
Compounds with pad have, according to the new rules, always -en- when you
hear [@] in the middle.

Diederik Masure

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (03) [D/E]

Yeah, this new Dutch spelling... I really hate it! Already the first ugly
version of it, that is about as old as our beautiful LLList...
It is based on the Non Low Saxon accent of Dutch, that never pronounce the
<n> in <-en>. For us Saxons, who clearly differentiate <-en> from <-e>,
it is frustrating and confusing having to write <paddeNstoel> when we
pronounce <paddEstoel>, but in other words like <padden> or <stoelen>
we do pronounce <n>. But the majority of Dutch speakers, of the central
dialects of Holland and Brabant, don't pronounce final -n at all.
For them it's difficult to know when -en or -e is spelled...
That is why there are two possibilities of forming plural for words ending
in -e (schwa): both -en and -es.
Zum Beispiel:
kudde-kudden/kuddes (flock), voorwaarde-voorwaarden/voorwaardes(condition)
behoefte-behoeften/behoeftes (need) etc.

In colloquial Dutch, the -es form is predominant, because there is no
difference heard between -e and -en. But in formal language it is -en.

Also note the difference between:

echtgenotEN (spouses/husbands) - echtgenoteS (wives)
arrestantEN (arrested men)     - arrestanteS (arrested women)
ChineZen (Chinese men) - ChineSen (Chinese women)
AngoleZen(Angolese mn) - AngoleSen(Chinese women)
etc

Ingmar

>From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.25 (03) [D/E]
>
>Re " het groene boekje"
>
>Roger Thijs quotes from the "Green Bible of Dutch Ortography"
>
>MMM.... Paddenstoel? Ik wist niet dat we er daarvan hadden die groot
>genoeg waren voor meer dan een pad tegelijk? Behalve dan misschien de
>"vliegen(ge)zwam. Jacqueline

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 19:56:12 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:56:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.125612.0700.>

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From: Thomas Byro <greenherring at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (01) [E]

Dear Ron:

I guess that this would come under a culinary heading.  I told my sons
a few days ago that in my opinion, gefilte fish makes a wonderful
flavoring for horseradish.  I remember encountering horseradish
occasionally in my lowlands childhood but it was not an important item
in my family.  There are cultures though where large quantitities of
horseradish are consumed.The Ukrainian National Home on the Lower East
Side in NYC makes a wonderful boiled beef with horseradish sauce (with
kasha on the side).  Do you or anyone else have any lowlands recipes
calling for horseradish?  The more horseradish the better.

Tom Byro

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Hello, Tom, and welcome back in our midst!  Great to see you couldn't stay
away for good.

Are you still eatin' them herrings?

Personally, I love horseraddish, but I was and am the only one at home, and
my repertoire is limited to "exotic" dishes, and now that I eat meat, fish
and potatoes very rarely or hardly ever my need for horseraddish has
lessoned accordingly.  I'll rummage around to see if I can find anything.
Unfortunately, my Old Hamburg cookbook has preceded me to California.  I
know that it has plenty of recipes you'd find interesting.

However, there are plenty of eaters and cooks around here besides me.  So,
with luck you'll hear from them.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 20:07:18 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:07:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.26 (07) [E/MEnglish]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.130718.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.25 (04) [E]

From: Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Subject: The Righte Honourable Raginhard Hawn's
Compleet Historie of RON, togethere wythe the related
Earthe-Tremours in Oxford.

"I deem there be nought save tremblynge,
Of unsene forces fraile,
Ideas, like moths, encas'd in ambre,
Chas'd by fearsomme cosmik gale,

The Perfecte Chorde of Energie,
Struck as by Lyre into empt Vastnesse,
Cool'd by sayme soete Harmonie,
Into alle Mattere, join'd and fastenned."

--Usually attributed to a West Saxon Quantum physicist
of the ninth Century, after stumbling across String
Theory.

Congrats, Ron. What a fine and complete etymology. The only link you left
out was Lydian "raan", which survives todayonly in the "Rann of Kutch";
meaning that a Ron was originally, and best, sung alone on a remote plain.
;-).

After much agonizing thought, I have decided to ignore all the recent
preoccupation with Low Germanic scatology. We are dealing here with words
and phrases that became polished and honed to efficiency eons ago with daily
usage in nearly every tribe around.Hence the amazing similarities today,
from Swedish to Viennese.
Enough S--- already!

Hails,

Arthur

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 20:40:16 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:40:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.26 (08) [E/Middle English/Old French]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.134016.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Auparavant ?crit par le Monsor Arthur, un Gentilz Homme trez Admirable, de
grand Apprentissage et de la Gentillesse trez rare:

> The only link you left
> out was Lydian "raan", which survives todayonly in the "Rann of Kutch";
> meaning that a Ron was originally, and best, sung alone on a remote plain.
> ;-).

Rethorye for the Nones of Oure Xth Anniversayre

de Raginhard Hawne
   ~ Aussy largement connu comme
   Le Troubadour Humilyant de la Saxe Vraye ~


   ~ avec un glossarium adjout?
   pour l'advantage du novice ~
___

   OU'R THWART THE PLEYNE

   A rerd, a rowste, a ron by hym soleyne
   Sung as a pleynt apon the vaste pleyne
   Was herd fer pleyn among the wolues-bonds
   And wolues-heeds y-spercled thurgh the londs,
   A medlee floc floc-mele gaderyng
   Fram fele plages sechyng faderyng,
   There rynges lederes stark, fayre hond
   To leden thwart there wong, there Laghelond,
   There ogen soken, ogen sayntuarye
   Ful murth and fele maner maysterye.
   Ten yeres prollyd they ou'r thwart the pleyne
   Carolyng rons nou samen, nan soleyne.
   There tonges and telynges owyng rounes vaste
   And tresores to whilk hy holden stedfast' faste.
   Grand mercy, thos, to sownes y-caryed fer
   Y-hyer'd by opyn ers and holdyn cher!

Glossary:

   anniversayre: anniversary
   bond: band
   caroling: dancing in a round, singing
   cher: dear
   er: ear
   faderyng: fathering
   faste: fast, tight
   fayre: fair, kindly
   fele: many, much
   fer: far; quite
   floc: flock, group, crowd
   floc-mele: in crowds
   fram: from
   ful: full
   gaderen: to gather
   grande mercy: many thanks
   herd: heard
   holden: (to) hold
   holdyn: held
   hond: hand
   hy: they
   hym: him
   laghe: low
   leden: to lead
   leder: leader
   lond: land
   maner: manner, sort, kind
   maysterye: mastery, success, skill
   medlee: many-colored, diverse
   murth: mirth
   nan: none, not, no
   nones: occasion
   nou: now
   ogen: own
   opyn: open
   ou'r thwart: all across, all over
   owyng: owning, having
   plage: shore, land, country
   pleyn: plain(ly), clear(ly)
   pleyne: plain
   pleynt: plaint
   prollyd: prowled, roamed in search
   rerd: voice, sound
   retorye: oration
   ron: song
   roune: rune, mystery
   rowste: voice
   ryng: round dance, round
   samen: together
   sayntuarye: sanctuary
   seche: seek
   soken: territory, precinct, shire
   soleyne: solitary, alone
   sowne: sound
   stark: strong
   stedfast(e): steadfast(ly)
   telynge: practice of magic, study, culture
   there: their
   thos: thus, therefore
   thurgh: through(out)
   thwart: across
   tonge: tongue, language
   tresor: treasure
   whilk: which
   wolues-heed: wolve's head, outlaw
   wong: meadow land, plain, territory
   y-caryed: carried
   yeres: years
   y-hyered: heard
   y-spercled: scattered

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 22:25:12 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:25:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.152512.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]

Hi, Tom,

horseradish (I guess, horses shall never try it to eat!) is very famous in
our region.

In the famous cherry- and apple-region near Hamburg, called "Das Alte Land",
people call it in their local LS: 'Myrrk", in G: 'Meerettich', in Austria
'Kren'..

Well- try it those ways:

1. Grate the fresh horseraddish as fine as possible, mix it with some sugar,
and add sweet cream as much as necesarry to make it weaker, specially for
Your children. Enjoy it with fish, as You already pointed up.
But- never take any type of canned horseradish; it's mostly mixed up and
conserved with sulphur. Horrible- b?h.

2. Prepare the radish as above, but with boiled beef:
You have to boil a certain part of a beef (called 'Tafelspitz', near the
tail of an ox; about 1,5 kg) for two or better three hours in a bouillion of
vegetables (onions, leek, carots, celery, some black pepper, a small piece
of ginger and, of course, not too less salt). Be careful- the lowest heat
You can manage on Your stove is best.
Take out the meat and wait a part of the bouillion on table, as starter.
Take the rest and enrich it with some sweet cream, sugar and try to thicken
it with some wheat- or corn-pour. A piece of butter is welcomed.
Then You have to add the prepared horseradish, as described above.

Cut the meat into very thin slices and serve it with the sauce and
German-typic boiled potatoes. Additional: some sugared cranberry-jelly,
perhaps even mixed with the grated horseradish.
If You like You may add some raisins You have weakened the night before in a
cup of water.

3. Salad
Very German-like! You have to open a tin of sour-krout and to peel and slice
some fresh apples. Put it together, mix it, then add just a little bit! salt
and sugar and some horseradish at last.

You want to stay a good friend to Your children? Don't serve it too often,
and don't be too generous with that damned hot vegetable. Everyone at your
table should be able to strengthen the taste with some horseradish served
apartly on a special plate in accordance with his own gusto.

Enjoy it, and I shall feel with You when You're crying like a 'dog of a
castle' while grating the radish.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

BTW: This above described salad we serve in special to baked herring and
potatoe-puree. Really!

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]

Tom,

as I just remember:

You can serve horseradish (prepared the way I wrote) to every type of
[smoked] fish (trouts, salmon, graved-salmon...) and meat (ham, bacon etc.).
You even should try it with aromatic cheese-types.
The same on sandwiches, with Middle- and Eastern-European, smoked or not,
sausage variations, instead of mustard.

Good health!

Greutens/sincerely once more

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks, Jonny!  I bet Tom, our prodigal son, will enjoy that, especially if
it can be combined with herring.  :-)

> In the famous cherry- and apple-region near Hamburg, called "Das Alte
> Land",
> people call it in their local LS: 'Myrrk", in G: 'Meerettich', in Austria
> 'Kren'..

I call it _merrik_ (German _Meerrettich_, bot. _Amoracia rusticana_).

Personally, I prefer the Japanese variant: ?? _wasabi_ (_Wasabia japonica_),
especially when it "shoots out the nose," as I call it ... Ouch! Yeah!
Goood!

By the way, horseraddish (Yiddish ???? _khreyn_) is the ????_maror_ ("bitter
(vegetable)") of choice at the Passover seder table, and kosher delis,
especially in New York City, should be able to give you horseraddish up the
yin-yang, since it goes perfectly with all those incomparable, enormously
stacked sandwiches.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 22:36:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:36:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.26 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.153609.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.26 (02) [E]

Hi Criost?ir, I think you're right that Irish should be the first and
maybe only public language in language reservations like the Gaeltacht.

By the way, when do we get an Irish (or Scottish) Gaelic version of the
Wren from you? Now, under Celtic, we only find the P-Celtic/Brittonic
Welsh, Breton and Cornish. I really miss Irish, Scottish and Manx..!

Ingmar

>Your statement raises two responses. Firstly, Irish is, under the
>Constitution, the "national and first official language". Consequently,
the
>Government is legally beholden to give precedence to Irish. I say
>"precedence" because the wording is "first" official language (English is
>the "second"). Of course, the Irish Government does not follow its own
rules
>(and in fact finds inventive ways to circumnavigate those rules) so that
>Irish is rarely used officially, and then only as an afterthought.
Secondly,
>I think prohibition of English on signage or other official uses in the
>Gaeltacht, where the majority of the population is supposed to have Irish
as
>its daily language, is not only desirable but absolutely necessary. What,
>otherwise, is the point in having a Gaeltacht than to uphold the usage -
>both publicly and privately - of Irish as the main or only language of
daily
>communication?
>
>It would be an easy and wonderful thing if Ireland became truly bilingual
a
>la Finland, Canada or Wales, but there's too many anti-Irish Irish [sic] -
>especially in Government - for that to ever happen in my pessimistic
>assessment. Irish is considered a useless family heirloom - pretty to look
>at and remind us where we came from, but best left in the attic and not
>shown to too many visitors.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 22:40:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:40:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.26 (11) [LS/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.154052.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.26 (04) [E/Germany]

Olaf, myn Hoogduytsch is neet so good, dor?mme antworde ik lever in et
Hamelandsch Neddersassisch. Ik bin blyde das dou de Wenterswykche versien
van et Nettelk?ningsken lyden kast. De heb ik samen met myne leve groot-
moder emaket, en ik hebbe s?lf dat verhaelken up MP3 espr?kken.

Wi k?nt et Wenterswyksch verhaal met et Bokeltsch verglyken. Et is jommer
dat der ginne geluydsupname van Bokelt (Bocholt) is, ik kenne Egon Reiches
verhaelkes sowal in gespr?kken as in geschrevven vorm. Dat bint bynao
twilling-dialekte, allenig in ?nse (?chterh??ksche) oorne klingt et
Bokelts noch al Pr??ssisch, krek as et Wentersch in voer ou wat Hollandsch
sal lyken, d?cht mi.

Dou hest et good esegd: West-M?nstersch en Oost-?chterh??ksch, evven as
Twentsch, et Suyd-Sallandsch en (Ovver-)Benthems bint allen ene en de
s?lvde spraoke. Dou n??mst et Westfaelsch, ik segge lever Hamelandsch,
?mdat der in Westfalen toch noch v?lle verschellen bestaot t?schen et ene
of et andere gebeed... En j?st disse vyv landstreken bint ene eenheid,
taalk?ndig esene. Hameland was een old land (gouw) dat vrogger in dat
gebeed lag, waor at nou disse dialekte espr?kken wardt...

Dan noch wat to fraogen, Olaf: dou segs da's dou di af en to (vake?)
argern d?st an Lowlands, ik wil gerne weten wor?mme dat is. Welke dinger
bint neet good, findst dou?
Dat d?t mi seer niy, dor?mme haope ik da's dou uns beantworden sast!

Hartelike groetnisse van Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: "Olaf Bordasch" <o.bordasch at planet.nl>
>Subject:  Achterhooksk und Westf?lisch
>
>Hallo Reinhard Hahn,
>
>herzlichen Gl?ckwunsch zum zehnj?hrigen Bestehen von "Lowlands"!
>
>Ich will nicht verhehlen, dass ich so meine Schwierigkeiten mit Lowlands
>habe und mich h?ufiger dar?ber ?rgere. Dass ich regelm??ig die Beitr?ge im
>Lowlands-Archiv lese, spricht aber f?r sich. - Und f?r Lowlands.
>
>Langer Rede kurzer Sinn: Ich habe auf der Jubil?umsseite von Lowlands die
>Geschichte vom Zaunk?nig in der Mundart des Achterhook gefunden und sie
mir
>mehrmals angeh?rt. Die Sache ist eindeutig: Achterhooksk ist Westf?lisch.
>
>Folgende Gr?nde lassen sich anf?hren:
>
>- Dass auch im Achterhook altlanges und tonlanges -a- unterschieden
werden,
>ist klar. Das war zu erwarten.
>
>- Ebenso wie das Westm?nsterl?ndische hat auch das Achterhooksk fr?her
>einmal die westf?lische Brechungen gekannt, hat sie aber zu verschiedenen
>L?ngen und K?rzen weiterentwickelt. (W?re es Nieders?chsisch, w?ren
anstelle
>der Brechungen ausschlie?lich gedehnte Vokale zu erwarten, die zus?tzlich
>noch gesenkt worden w?ren.)
>
>Ich kann die Mundart von Winterswijk gut verstehen, und sie klingt mir
>angenehm in der Ohren. Es l?sst sich aber nicht ?bersehen, dass auch diese
>Grenzmundart schon vom Holl?ndischen beeinflusst wurde.
>
>Ich bel?stige Sie v?llig ungebeten mit dieser E-mail, weil Sie vor einiger
>Zeit in einer Antwort an Ingmar Roerdinkholder (glaube ich) die These
>vertreten haben, "die Mundarten des Achterhooks und Twentes w?ren dem
>Westf?lischen verwandt, so nicht Westf?lisch". - Genauso ging es mir, ich
>war auch unsicher.
>
>Was die Mundart von Winterswijk angeht, ist f?r die Sache f?r mich
gekl?rt.
>
>Das ist Westf?lisch und geh?rt in dieselbe Kategorie wie das
>Westm?nsterl?ndische. (Nicht zu verwechseln mit dem M?nsterl?ndischen, das
>die Brechung bewahrt hat.)
>
>Vielen Dank also f?r die MP3-Aufnahme aus Winterswijk!
>
>Gru?,
>
>Olaf Bordasch

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Apr 26 23:07:52 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:07:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.26 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.26.APR.2005.160752.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.26 (01) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>The same goes for "spat" (preterite of "spit").  People
look at me strangely when I say "spat," <

What else could you say?

I spitted????????? that would beg a direct object    What did you spit i.e.
transfix by means of a long thin metal/wooden rod with the intent of
cooking over an open fire!

Stink   stank   stunk   is giving way to stink stunk  stunk       as is
shrink        nowadays one often hears    shrink shrunk shrunk

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hi, Heather!

> What else could you say?

I spit now. I spit five minutes ago. I have spit many times in the past.
:-)

So:
spit - spat - have spat ~ spit - spit - have spit
shit - shat - have shat ~ shit - shit - have shit

These are now listed in most dictionaries are permissible variants.

Analogous to:
hit - hit - have hit
fit - fit - have fit
quit - quit - have quit

But still:
sit - sat - have sat
(also in American)

Weak:
knit - knitted - have knitted
grit - gritted - have gritted
flit - flitted - have flitted
pit - pitted - have pitted

Don't blame *me* though!  I plead innocence in all of this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 14:41:36 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:41:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.04.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.074136.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.04.25 (05) [E/Turkish]

Aye Ron but let's not forget the many British and French troops who suffered
the same fate during this shambles.
Sadly here in Australia one gets the impression they did it all.
Your 'draft' translation of that Turkish poem is stunning to say the least.

On 26/04/2005, at 1:44 PM, Lowlands-L wrote:

> This is indeed a time of many anniversaries.  Included is the current
> 90th
> anniversary of the battle of Gallipoli/Kilitbahir, Gelibolu, Turkey,
> during
> which thousands and thousands of Australians, New Zealanders and Turks
> were
> massacred.
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Oh!  Thanks, Tom.  I beg everyone's pardon.  It was a sad omission that
shows Australian or ANZAC conditioning, where fallen British and French
soldiers are afterthoughts at best.

Thanks for setting this right, Tom.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 15:16:27 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:16:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.27 (02) [E]
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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.26 (12) [E]


Ron wrote:
"I spit now. I spit five minutes ago. I have spit many times in the past."

Ugh! That middle one makes no grammatical sense whatsoever. It's a present
tense pretending to be past. The third one looks a little odd the more I say
it aloud, but the second one is simply, well, wrong.

[x:rxgq.ph]

Go raibh maith agat

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Dan Prohaska <danielprohaska at bluewin.ch>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

>>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Etymology

>>Cr?ost?ir (above):

>>> Ben Bloomgren wrote:
>>> "When did we lose shat?"
>>>
>>> We haven't.

>>Not English as a whole but American English, certainly the dialects
>>within the standard range.  The same goes for "spat" (preterite of
>>"spit").  People look at me strangely when I say "spat," so I'm
>>caught somewhere between wanting to stop it and not being able to
>>bring myself to saying "spit" for the preterite.  "Shat" and "spat"
>>are considered quite alien, and some people won't even know what
>>they mean.

Dear Reinhardt, everybody,
I can't remember ever having a past tense of <spit> other than <spat>, and
<shot> from <shoot>. I have noticed though, that I've rarely if ever used
the past tense of <shit>. I'd rather say "I went for a shit" or "I had a
shit" rather than "I shat".

>>By the way, this also goes for the pronunciation "at" for "ate."
>>I've always found that strange myself and don't say it.  I suppose
>>it is derived from a variant with a short vowel: _atte_ ['at@] vs
>>_ate_ ['a:t@].

Actually <at> is the historical 1st and 3rd person singular.  West Saxon Old
English had:

infinitive:       etan
1st present:      ete
2nd present:      itst
3rd present:      itt
pl. present:      eta?

1st, 3rd past:    ?t
2nd past:         ?:te
pl. past:         ?:ton

pp.:              (ge-)eten

The historical singular is continued in dialectal /?t/ and in standard /Et/,
the latter being a contaminated form, meaning with the vowel quantity of the
singular and the quality of the plural. A similar kind of contamination is
the reason that the past tense of <read> is /rEd/ and not /r?d/.

<Ate> is a bit more difficult to explain. I?d say it?s either an early
analogically formed plural using the singular stem which was subsequently
lengthened in open syllables in the 13th century ? or it is a reading
pronunciation. It could also be a more northerly form that was transferred
to the US and subsequently re-imported to the South ? just an idea, but it
always surprises me how many North Midlands and northern forms survive in
the US where they are ?only? dialectal in England. But this is just a wild
card.

Dan

>>Low Saxon (North Saxon):
>>eat: eten > eet - eyt - eyten
>>          (eten > eet - eet - eten)
>>          [e:t=n] > [e:t] - [EIt] - ['e:t=n]
>>          pres.: ik eet [e:t], du itst [Itst], hey itt [It], wy eett [e:t]
>>         ~     eten ['e:t=n]

----------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.26 (01) [E]

On 27/04/2005, at 1:22 AM, Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha
<paada_please at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Ben Bloomgren wrote:
> "When did we lose shat?"
>
> We haven't. In most of England it remains the past tense of the verb
> "to
> shit".

And in the Land of Oz as Ron can confirm.
We even have an epic poem about 'The dog shat in the tuckerbox nine miles
from Gundagai'.
And they even have  a bronze staue of said dog upon that box.
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Hey, Cr?ost?ir!

> Ron wrote:
> "I spit now. I spit five minutes ago. I have spit many times in the past."
>
> Ugh! That middle one makes no grammatical sense whatsoever. It's a
> present tense pretending to be past. The third one looks a little odd the
> more I say it aloud, but the second one is simply, well, wrong.

Ha!  As I said, don't schiet any kloten at *me*, for I'm merely an innocent
bystander caught between grammatical giants!  But ... there's little in
grammar, even supposedly deviant grammar, that does not make sense one way
or another (as our Dan shows regarding "ate" above).

"Spit - spat - spat" follows the pattern of "sit - sat - sat," while "spit -
spit - spit" follows the pattern of "fit - fit - fit" and "hit - hit - hit."
So now what do you have to say, young man?

Servus, Dan!  So nice you're popping in (even though you are d-t-ing me)!
I've missed your illustrious presence.  Thanks for explaining that [at]
thing.  It makes sense.  I suppose there ought to be the orthographic
variant <at>.  This would make it easier to accept it, or would "visually
ligitimize" it.

Hello again, Tom!

> And in the Land of Oz as Ron can confirm.
> We even have an epic poem about 'The dog shat in the tuckerbox nine
> miles from Gundagai'.
> And they even have  a bronze staue of said dog upon that box.

Too right, mate!  It's another bit of high Australian culture the world
could never do without
(http://www.holidaysearch.com.au/articles/gundagai.htm), though some bloody
wowsers see fit to change the words to "The dog sat on the tuckerbox nine
miles from Gundagai."

> [x:rxgq.ph]

Was that you making that sound, Cr?ost?ir, or was it our Arthur's reaction
to this topic refusing to go away?

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 15:24:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:24:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.082438.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]

On 27/04/2005, at 5:56 AM, Thomas Byro <greenherring at gmail.com>
  wrote:

> I remember encountering horseradish
> occasionally in my lowlands childhood but it was not an important item
> in my family.  There are cultures though where large quantitities of
> horseradish are consumed

Hi Thomas et al,
horse radish sauce is a standard accompaniment to roast beef in the
British Isles and in Australia.
Seldom prepared from scratch alas it is usually a commercial product.
A very hot Japanese horse radish (Daikyo ?) sauce is now appearing in
sushi restaurants. My first wife thought it was avocado based guacamole
and ended in convulsions. Be warned.
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E]

On 27/04/2005, at 8:25 AM,  jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>  wrote:

Thanks for jogging my memory.
Last July I enjoyed the best coleslaw ever at Panser's deli in Toronto.
Horseradish was a major ingredient and I can never really enjoy
pastrami again after Panser's superb home made version.

> 3. Salad
> Very German-like! You have to open a tin of sour-krout and to peel and
> slice
> some fresh apples. Put it together, mix it, then add just a little
> bit! salt
> and sugar and some horseradish at last.
>
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]
>
> Hi, Tom,
>
> horseradish (I guess, horses shall never try it to eat!) is very famous in
> our region.
>
> In the famous cherry- and apple-region near Hamburg, called "Das Alte
> Land",
> people call it in their local LS: 'Myrrk", in G: 'Meerettich', in Austria
> 'Kren'..

Interesting.  The Russian word for horseradish is "khren" (????).  "Khren"
is also commonly used in Russian as a euphemism for another "kh-" word, the
slang term for a certain part of the male anatomy.

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Guess what I say while stopping at a European deli on my way home last
night, Tom (Byro)!  Cans of herring in creamy horseraddish sauce, two German
brands!  I bet you can get them not only at German delis but at Russian ones
as well.  At least that's how it's at this side of the country.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 15:26:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:26:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.082607.0700.>

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (06) [E]

Hi, Tom,

horseradish (I guess, horses shall never try it to eat!) is very famous in
our region.<

OED  The 'horse' element means 'coarse' or 'rough' or 'large'  as in horse
chestnut  or  horse leech .    It doesn't explain why.

Whereas Partridge only makes a reference after 'horse chestnut' suggesting
that they might have been used as food or medicine for horses.

?????????????

OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse chestnut'  castanea equina
     Rosskastanie.

In any other languages too?
Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?

Heather

PS the only medicinal properties for the horse chestnut I know of are
connected with the bath gel Badadas whose adverts used to  promise the
prompt arrival of a dishy partner by helicopter outside one's bathroom, if
one indulged in such a product !

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Apr 27 16:20:13 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:20:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.092013.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.26 (10) [E]


Ingmar wrote:
"By the way, when do we get an Irish (or Scottish) Gaelic version of the
Wren from you? Now, under Celtic, we only find the P-Celtic/Brittonic Welsh,
Breton and Cornish. I really miss Irish, Scottish and Manx..!"

Steady on, Ingmar! I'm still trying (and failing) to find time to write the
Nottingham English version!

Perhaps ?r dTom?s (? C?rthaigh) can jump in with the leathanach Ghaeilge?

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Dear Lowlanders,

Re: http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/

Please don't even as much as think that the anniversary presentation is
finished and done with.  Oh, nooo!  This is just the beginning.  It keeps
evolving, and we are still expecting goodies from you and guests.  :-)  So,
please follow our Cr?ost?ir's example by sending in more translations, sound
files and personal introductions, which you may send to me
(sassisch at yahoo.com).

Also, there is now a sort of visitors' book:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=guests
It isn't an automatic one, just an archive for congratulatory messages.  So,
at the very least (or on top of other efforts, like Antero did) you might
want to leave a message there.  You can do so either by clicking on the
email link ("Send a Message") or by sending your message to
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net with the subject line "Lowlands-L Anniversary
Guestbook".

Our Henry is still working on sound files.  If you sent him a file or a
cassette tape you might want to write to him (henry.pijffers at saxnot.com) and
ask him if he got it.

I have already thanked the many contributors and collaborators for their
work on the project (listed at
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=colophon).  I want to
send a special thank-you to those that went way beyond the call, such as
Kenneth Rohde Christiansen, Ingmar Roerdinkholder, Mike Szelog (Mr. Wow!)
and Gary Taylor, besides Mathieu van Woerkom and Henry Pijffers.  You're
real gems, guys!

OK, folks, keep it coming, and hold fast!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 00:10:07 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:10:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.171007.0700.>

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From: Leslie Decker <leslie at volny.cz>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]

    Kevin Caldwell wrote:



    In the famous cherry- and apple-region near Hamburg, called "Das Alte
    Land",
    people call it in their local LS: 'Myrrk", in G: 'Meerettich', in
Austria
    'Kren'..


  Interesting. The Russian word for horseradish is "khren" (????). "Khren"
  is also commonly used in Russian as a euphemism for another "kh-" word,
the
  slang term for a certain part of the male anatomy.

  Kevin Caldwell


The Austrian version could be from the Czech chren or Slovak chren. Don't
think there're any double meanings there, but I could be wrong!

Leslie Decker

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dobr? den, Leslie!

> The Austrian version could be from the Czech chren or Slovak chren.

Don't you think the Bavarian version comes from Czech too, what with Bavaria
sharing a border with "Bohemia"?  Of course, it could have arrived by way of
Austria as well.

Na shledanou!
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]

Yes, Dutch has <paardekastanje> from <paard> horse and <kastanje> chestnut.
Btw, in the new spelling I guess that will be <paardeNkastanje>
Ingmar

>Heather:

>OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse chestnut'  castanea
>equina > Rosskastanie.
>
>In any other languages too?
>Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?

----------

From: ?j??r?kr ?j??reksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]



>OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse chestnut'  castanea

>equina
>     Rosskastanie.
>
>In any other languages too?
>Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?
>
>Heather

Paardekastanje (probably paardenkastanje in the brand-new version of our
tussen-n rule) in Standard Dutch.
Also often called "wilde kastanje", as opposed to the "tame" = domesticated
= eatable, version, the "tamme kastanje"

Diederik Masure

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 00:11:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:11:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.27 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.171141.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.26 (12) [E]

Heather: "Stink   stank   stunk   is giving way to stink stunk  stunk"

Well, around these parts we have a word that emphasizes the stink.  I guess
it's a "new" linguistic phenomenon called "word leveling."  That would be
when one word is selected that comes to represent the entire range of
meanings.  So, here in Texas instead of saying "That stinks," we say, "That
stanks!"  Stank can be a noun or a verb of any tense, i.e., "Even when he
left his stank stayed behind" or "Be glad you weren't there, 'cause it stank
somethin' awful" or "No, I'm not going in there 'cause it will stank to high
heaven."  We even have the continuing tense as in, "He be stankin'."

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 00:14:27 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:14:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.171427.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]

Hello,

Does anyone have a recipe for "onion brick".
(I do not mean onion rings, but a hard cube about 2" x 2" x 4" of brown
crispy onion, tightely baked together.)

I once got it as (voluminous) apetizer in a restaurant in Evanston (North of
Chiocago) when participating at an exchange program with the Northwestern,
but I never found it somewhere else afterwards.

Thanks ahead for all leads,

Regards,

Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 00:19:57 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:19:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.171957.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]


Criost?ir wrote: "Steady on, Ingmar! I'm still trying (and failing) to find
time to write the
Nottingham English version!"

Ey up!! ya talk Notts?

Paul

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 05:29:25 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:29:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.27.APR.2005.222925.0700.>

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=======================================================================

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (08) [E]

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]
>
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone have a recipe for "onion brick".
> (I do not mean onion rings, but a hard cube about 2" x 2" x 4" of brown
> crispy onion, tightely baked together.)
>
> I once got it as (voluminous) apetizer in a restaurant in Evanston (North
> of
> Chiocago) when participating at an exchange program with the Northwestern,
> but I never found it somewhere else afterwards.
>
> Thanks ahead for all leads,

Don't know about a baked version.  Here in the Washington, DC, area, there's
a barbecue chain called "Red, Hot & Blue" that serves something called an
onion loaf, which is basically sliced onions dipped in batter, then packed
into a fryer basket and deep fried.  It comes out in a block about 3" x 3" x
8", or whatever the dimensions of a fryer basket are.  Greasy and very bad
for you, and therefore incredibly delicious!

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (08) [E]

Reply for Roger Thijs regarding the onion brick.
Hey Roger, that sounds surprisingly much like Rosti ( Dang there is no
umlaut for the o in this format), the Swiss delicacy of fried potato cake.
I have never tried to make onion cake, but I bet you can make it by
frying sliced onions in a bit of oil or butter until still soft but
browning.
Then add a little bit of potato starch and some salt in a small amount
of water mix well and pack the onions in a baking form.
Put in the oven at 35O F for 30' or so and it should be ready.
I'll have to try that one of these days. I am getting hungry. Jacqueline

----------

From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]


Hi all,
Horse/ coarse to distinguish it from edible. Horseradish from Radish, Horse
Chestnut from Chestnut etc.
In the States, it's thought that horseradish is a corrupted translation of
the German "meerrettich" meer-mare-horse. At least that was what the
instructor of a cooking class stated that I attended a long time ago. Around
Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania, some old timers have different names
for the plant - poke-radish, pikelsprout, and my favorite "burp-weed".
There was also a company there some 30 or 40 years ago that produced
horseradish with a label that had a rather rotund Germanic looking fellow
smiling benignly underneath the words "German Mustard".
If anyone is interested, email me for vegetarian horseradish recipes.
Larry

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

So we're still salivating, are we, even *after* dinner time?  All righty
then.

Kevin, that onion loaf, though different in shape, reminds me of those
Australian onion flowers that have been quite the craze here in the US for a
while (at fun fairs and at the Outback Steakhouse chain -- which I nearly
spoonerized into "Steakback Outhouse" just now ...).  It's a whole onion
somehow cut so it comes out looking like a giant flower when you deepfry it.
It's equally greasy and very bad for you.

Larry:

> poke-radish, pikelsprout, and my favorite "burp-weed".

Nice!  Actually, I eat radish greens (and turnip greens) saut?ed (both
Western- and "Asian"-style).  Try it!  It's delish.

"Poke-radish" reminds me of "pokeweed," a real American, Southern, thing to
eat, pretty much unknown to most Northerners.  Do you know it, dear
Americans of the Southern persuation?  It's an American native, _Phytolacca
americana_:
(http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ecoph24.htm
http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/StratfordLandingES/Ecology/mpages/pokeweed.htm
I've eaten it fresh and found it rather palatable, although I find that
Southerners overcook vegetables just as much as traditional cooks do on the
European Lowlands.  I've found pokeweed canned up here in the north (in
African America delis), but I find it rather slimy and yucky, like pretty
much all canned greens.  Being married to a descendant of Alabamans of part
Choctaw, Creek and African slave descent, I get to try all sorts of
delicacies that started off as the food of those that lived off the land and
off rich folks scraps, and I find much of Southern cooking rather similar to
Lowlands cooking.  I'm now quite fond of collard greens (Brassica oleracea
var. acephala), a sort that arrived here with the slave trade from Western
Africa.

Larry again:

> If anyone is interested, email me for vegetarian horseradish recipes.

Et tu, Laurentius?

If anyone is interested in North German recipes and wants to practise
reading Low Saxon side-by-side with English, you might like to check out
this the recipe section here:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/

(And, everyone who remembers her, Tant Clara, now nearing her 86th birthday,
her husband having his 87th next week, is still kicking and writing her
newspaper column, and she narrated her Olland Low Saxon translation for our
anniversary site, very nicely I think, very much true to herself -- bless
her.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 07:28:14 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:28:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.002814.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]


That almost sounds like the "bloomin onion" at the Outback Steakhouse
restaurants.

----------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.26 (09) [E ... and a smidge of Japanese]

R/R wrote:
> Personally, I prefer the Japanese variant: ?? _wasabi_ (_Wasabia
> japonica_),
> especially when it "shoots out the nose," as I call it ... Ouch! Yeah!
> Goood!

Yes, but those of you across the sea who can only get it in little tubes,
don't know the REAL heavenly pleasures of grinding fresh wasabi with a
little wooden pestle () in little Japanese-style mortar with a little salt
to go with your zaru-soba (???? cold hand-rolled buckwheat noodles) or, as
my Deaf friends all say (and sign) "saru-soba" (???? lit. "Monkey" buckwheat
noodles). ???? (sorry, the best translation is just the sound of cold
noodles being noisily slurped on a hot day ... and I don't think my IPA font
has the necessary characters for that.)

Though, when I really need a quick fix, straight from the tube is okay too.
(Okay, I have been know to "snoepen" on Sambal Badjak and try to keep my
fridge stocked with (preferably, Bihari) Mango and Lime pickles for the not
so occassional attack of the munchies. ... )

Too bad I've already had lunch.

Mike Morgan
???
KCUFS

Osaka, JAPAN

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Ben (above):

> "bloomin onion" ...

Bingo!  That's it.  I had forgotten the proper name.  Thanks.

MM (above):

Yes, but those of you across the sea who can only get it in little tubes,
don't know the REAL heavenly pleasures of grinding fresh wasabi with a
little wooden pestle

Hah! The world has changed, certainly at this coast at which Orient and
Occident hold each other by the other hand.  Not only do I know the delight
from (and got hooked on it in) Japan, but I can easily get fresh wasabi here
in Seattle (e.g., at Uwajimaya, a large Japanese supermarket) and also in
the Bay Area where I will end up one of these days.  OK, so they don't carry
it *every* day, but, hey, that's good enough for me.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 07:31:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:31:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.003109.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (06) [E]

Hello:

Conc. chestnut - a small note:

Be aware that the eatable chestnut was a local in the lowlands districts ab.
2000 years ago and the 'horse chestnut' has been imported from the north of
Greece through Europe since 16th century on. These two trees are no family,
only their fruits look alike, and so they got their names.
-------------------------------------
> >Heather:
>
> >OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse
> chestnut'  castanea
> >equina > Rosskastanie.
> >
> >In any other languages too?
> >Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?
>
> ----------
>
> From: ?j??r?kr ?j??reksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]
>
>
>
> >OED notes that both Latin and German have 'horse
> chestnut'  castanea
>
> >equina
> >     Rosskastanie.
> >
> >In any other languages too?
> >Or does anyone use a word for a similar purpose?
> >
> >Heather

> Also often called "wilde kastanje", as opposed to
> the "tame" = domesticated
> = eatable, version, the "tamme kastanje"
>
> Diederik Masure

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 08:00:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 01:00:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.28 (03) [E/MiddleEnglish]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.010031.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Aihwareiks/Anniver-sarai

Leewe Leyglanners,

Just a short message of recognition to our Raginhard/Ron for his
Australian/Turkish poetry, among other things:

On ultra-short notice, he also wrote a memorable poem in Middle English. It
revealed a polished craft coupled with a great and powerful muse.

Ron, sometimes you come dangerously close to achieving the Renaissance
ideal: Seized of great inspiration and the ability to carry out the amazing
visions it generates. The Elisabethan (or pre-Elisabethan) poem, composed at
least a little bit in response to my words
about

"alone...on a plain...",

suggested a genius akin to that of the train called the Panama Limited: I
can only stand by the tracks with my hat in my hand.

The day before, you summoned and then juxtaposed the Australian with the
Turkish voices of the fallen.

I thought for a moment I heard their voices almost together, as in a chorus
of anguish and of warning.
Bless you, friend.

You have also written in Gothic and made it stand up and sing like a true
predecessor of the courtly world of the High Middle Ages. And I think you
are right.

Shakespeare noted that lunatics, lovers and poets give us, in their fervor,
the universe compacted into a few words. You are surely all three. As one
who can only peer through the windows of genius --and damned happy to be a
voyeur of that process-- I thank you.

Best regards,

Arthur

Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

To Arthur yn respons:

   A, Cher Monsor! With Eure bonayre leue
   Schall I bi-soken fram Eur' heriynges repreue.
   For Eu, a ient-man of heigh engyn Eure seoluen,
   Awt na thos frely in to houris bokes deluen
   And gar myn leores forthen tornen rede
   For a seily pea-gooses pur doggerelles dede.
   Ac, yis, cher sibbe saull, Eur' felyng fere is keyn,
   For Eu han thurch myn bourd myn trew saull seyn.

Glossary:
   awt na: ought not
   bi-soken: beseech, seek, request, beg
   bokes: books
   bonayre: kind, gentle
   bourd: jest, fun, prank, tomfoolery
   cher: dear
   dede: deed, act
   deluen: delve
   doggerell: doggerel, silly scribble
   engyn: understanding, craft, device, engine
   eu: you
   eure, eur': your
   felyng: feeling
   fere: ability
   forthen: even
   fram: from
   frely: freely, generously, readily
   gar: cause, make
   han: have
   heigh: high
   heriynge: praise
   houris: orisons, songs of praise
   ient-man: gentleman
   keyn: keen, sharp
   leor: cheek, face
   leue: leave, permission
   monsor: monsieur, sir
   myn: my
   pea-goose: simple, doltish fellow
   pur: pure, mere
   rede: red
   repreue: reprieve
   saull: soul
   schall: shall
   seily: simple, silly
   seoluen: self, selves
   (y-)seyn: seen
   sibbe: related, kindred
   thos: thus, so
   thurch: through
   tornen: turn
   trew: true
   yis: yes

***

The thessayd rhyme improued:

Rethorye for the Nones of Oure Xth Anniversayre

de Raginhard Hawne
   ~ Aussy largement connu comme
   Le Troubadour Humilyant de la Saxe Vraye ~

   ~ avec un glossarium adjout? pour l'advantage du novice ~
___

   OU'R THWART THE PLEYNE

   A rerd, a rowste, a ron by hym soleyne
   Y-sungen as a pleynt apon the vaste pleyne
   Was y-hyer'd fer pleyn among the wolues-bonds
   And wolues-heeds y-spercled thurgh the londs,
   A medlee floc floc-mele gaderyng
   Fram fele plages sechyng faderyng,
   There rynges lederes stark, fayre hond
   To leden thwart there wong, there Laghelond,
   There ogen soken, ogen sayntuarye
   Ful murth and fele maner maysterye.
   Ten yeres prollyd they ou'r thwart the pleyne
   Carolyng rons nou samen, nan soleyne.
   There tonges and telynges owyng rounes vaste
   And tresores to whilk hy holden stedfast' faste.
   Grand mercy, thos, to sownes y-caryed fer
   Y-hyer'd with opyn ers, y-holdyn cher!

Glossary:

   anniversayre: anniversary
   bond: band
   caroling: dancing in a round, singing
   cher: dear
   er: ear
   faderyng: fathering
   faste: fast, tight
   fayre: fair, kindly
   fele: many, much
   fer: far; quite
   floc: flock, group, crowd
   floc-mele: in crowds
   fram: from
   ful: full
   gaderen: to gather
   grande mercy: many thanks
   holden: (to) hold
   hond: hand
   hy: they
   hym: him
   laghe: low
   leden: to lead
   leder: leader
   lond: land
   maner: manner, sort, kind
   maysterye: mastery, success, skill
   medlee: many-colored, diverse
   murth: mirth
   nan: none, not, no
   nones: occasion
   nou: now
   ogen: own
   opyn: open
   ou'r thwart: all across, all over
   owyng: owning, having
   plage: shore, land, country
   pleyn: plain(ly), clear(ly)
   pleyne: plain
   pleynt: plaint
   prollyd: prowled, roamed in search
   rerd: voice, sound
   retorye: oration
   ron: song
   roune: rune, mystery
   rowste: voice
   ryng: round dance, round
   samen: together
   sayntuarye: sanctuary
   seche: seek
   soken: territory, precinct, shire
   soleyne: solitary, alone
   sowne: sound
   stark: strong
   stedfast(e): steadfast(ly)
   telynge: practice of magic, study, culture
   there: their
   thos: thus, therefore
   thurgh: through(out)
   thwart: across
   tonge: tongue, language
   tresor: treasure
   whilk: which
   wolues-heed: wolve's head, outlaw
   wong: meadow land, plain, territory
   y-caryed: carried
   yeres: years
   y-holdyn: held
   y-hyered: heard
   y-spercled: scattered
   y-sungen: sung

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 14:35:04 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:35:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.073504.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.27 (07) [E]


Mark Brooks wrote:
"So, here in Texas instead of saying "That stinks," we say, "That
stanks!" Stank can be a noun or a verb of any tense, i.e., "Even when he
left his stank stayed behind" or "Be glad you weren't there, 'cause it stank
somethin' awful" or "No, I'm not going in there 'cause it will stank to high
heaven." We even have the continuing tense as in, "He be stankin'.""

Cornish English has always had _staankin_ for standard English _stinking_
and the phrase "That stinks" would in Cornish English (West Cornwall) always
be "E's staankin, ee is".

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

---------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.04.26 (12) [E ... or at least American]


Since R/R, with regard to the unforgivable debasing of  the shitting and
spitting paradigm, stated:

> Don't blame *me* though!  I plead innocence in all of this.

And since it might go on and on forever with denials and
counter-allegations, like a Washington soap-opera, I'll fess up. I plead
guilty; I did it; blame me!

Though sometimes I do conjugate: shit-shat-shut ... particularly during
bouts of constipation. :-)

MWM
KCUFS

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 14:36:56 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:36:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.073656.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (09) [E]


Paul Finlow-Bates
"Ey up!! ya talk Notts?"

Ey up, yoth! Ah doew. It's mi fost language, ah tok thuh Lon Eaton vozhun.
Worrabaat yusen?

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 15:28:43 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:28:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.082843.0700.>

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From: Dave Singleton <davidsin at pt.lu>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 () [E]

Hello Roger,

Could this be the same sort of thing as Onion Bhaji from Indian
restaurants in UK/Europe ?

Dave Singleton

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (03) [E]
>
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone have a recipe for "onion brick".
> (I do not mean onion rings, but a hard cube about 2" x 2" x 4" of brown
> crispy onion, tightely baked together.)
>
> I once got it as (voluminous) apetizer in a restaurant in Evanston (North
> of
> Chiocago) when participating at an exchange program with the Northwestern,
> but I never found it somewhere else afterwards.
>
> Thanks ahead for all leads,
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger

----------

From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (01) [E]


Hey,
Well you don't have to go to the Oriental market anymore, there is an
American grower,who according to an old Wall Street Journal article, used to
export most of his product TO Japan.
Great, fantastic, four Kleenex stuff.

Don't mean to plug anyone but it IS that good.

http://www.freshwasabi.com/

Wasabi smashed potatoes, wasabi infused greens that you just have to mop up
the pot likker with cornbread (come to think of it wasabi and chili
cornbread is pretty good too), green corn and wasabi tamales. Yum.

?Ron? yup had poke, and the like, don't forget W.PA. cooking is just like
W.VA. and VA. cooking. Just under a different flag s'all.  After having
hoofed around Europe here for a while,  it seems to me that most blue collar
peoples of whatever nationality share pretty much the same way about doing
things. Not a true vegetarian, still eat meat Ron. However, being Orthodox
Christian and follow the different fasts, you do learn to eat and be
creative about cooking vegetarian/vegan. Might be a little baaaaaaaaa-d of
me, getting a little wooly and going out on a lamb, but really looking
forward to Easter this weekend.
Larry,
Sometimes Vegan, but always a Chili-horseradish-wasabi head.

--------------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]

Ron:  "Do you know it, dear Americans of the Southern persuation?"

Yes, I've heard of it, but gratefully never had to eat it.  Both of my
parents come from Tennessee and were familiar with it as poke salad.  In
fact there was a popular song from the late 60's early 70's called "Poke
Salad Annie."  I'm not a fan of turnip greens or any of that stuff.  I like
spinach, but the greens are just too bitter.  It probably comes from
traumatic experiences in my childhood as a preacher's kid.  The members of
the church paid the pastor so little that they often felt obligated to give
us food from their garden.  One man grew enough turnip greens each year to
make the Jesus and the loaves stories look like nothing but chips and salsa.
I mean this guy could grow some turnip greens!  So, every few days he would
bring us grocery bags full of them.  That's the old brown paper sacks that
would hold nigh on a bushel!  Well, maybe a little exaggeration there, but
it was way too much for this Southern boy.  I have come to despise turnip
greens.  The only time I found them good at all was a few years ago when an
African-American woman cooked some for a lunch party at the office.  She
told me that I would like them if I had them cooked right.  Well, they WERE
good, but truthfully little squares of cardboard would have tasted good the
way she cooked them.  Butter, and salt, and butter, and salt, and who knows
what else.  They had to have an ambulance on stand-by for any sudden heart
attacks.  No, not really, but they couldn't have been good for the heart.
Maybe someone else will have fonder memories of poke salad and turnip
greens.

Mark Brooks

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Hey, guys!

Larry:

> Not a true vegetarian, still eat meat Ron. However, being Orthodox
> Christian and follow the different fasts, you do learn to eat and be
> creative about cooking vegetarian/vegan.

Yeah, I should have made that connection.  In fact, some of my favorite
vegetarian recipes came from Orthodox friends.

> Sometimes Vegan, but always a Chili-horseradish-wasabi head.

Deal.  I'll visit you during lent then.  ;-)

Anyway, happy Easter to you and all other Eastern Orthodox Lowlanders!

Mark:

> Well, they WERE
> good, but truthfully little squares of cardboard would have tasted good
> the
> way she cooked them.  Butter, and salt, and butter, and salt, and who
> knows
> what else.

Hamhocks, no doubt, if not also pigs' snouts ...

> I like
> spinach, but the greens are just too bitter.

The more bitter the better for me, which is why my favorite greens are
mustard greens, all kinds, also the Chinese kinds.  And one of my favorites
is bitter squash (or bitter melon or balsam pear, _Momordica charantia_,
Tagalog _ampalaya_, Chinese ?? _kugua_, _fugua_, Japanese ??? _nigauri_,
_karela_ in parts of India,
http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/Hort/Fmrs/Asian_veg/bitter.htm) used widely
throughout Asia, reputedly a real wonder drug as well, especially for people
with heart ailments, for diabetics and for sufferers of HIV/AIDS
(http://www.raintree-health.co.uk/cgi-bin/getpage.pl?/plants/bitmelon.html).
If you think greens are bitter, I wonder what you'd say about these.  They
grow on you, especially cooked up with tomato.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 18:38:44 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:38:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.113844.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (06) [E]


Okay, now I'm really upset. Every time I find something that let's me feel "
Japonday?m, ne mutlu"*, the feeling gets shot down. Next you're going to
tell me that the ??? (fresh raw Japanese horseradish) in your oriental
grocer's doesn't cost an arm and a leg a shoot (the going price here at my
local supermarket, last I looked). Or that you can get "Seattle's Best"
(coffee that is) there, too. I really AM running out of reasons (excuses?)
for staying here. Please tell me you can't get ??????? (mountain burdock
roll sushi) at your local ??????? (the kind of sushi bar where the sushi
plates go round and round until they are three days old or fall off the
conveyor belt ... I forget what you/we/they call such places in English)! I
really WILL have to leave then.

Not, of course that I will go to the US of A when I do leave this place, if
and when I leave (I was just informed today that my credit card was refused
... again, the second time in a year, both times thanks to the so-called
"Patriot Act". Though both times I WAS trying to do business with arch
enemies both of the US and democracy in general: to wit, France
(amazon.com.fr) and Turkey (Pandora Kitabevi). Yes, I WAS engaged in that
most terrorist of acts: buying books!)

Anyway, all this talk of Southern cooking makes ME (a not so Southern Boy)
miss mustard AND turnip AND collard greens, and grits, and some good
whitemeal cornbread** ... like mom used to make. (Mom is from Ferrum, a
stone's throw from Rocky Mount, itself a stone's throw from Roanoke (IF you
have a real good arm!) in western Virginia. Dad's a northerner ... from the
big town of Davy, West Virginia just north across the border.  Went to high
school in Welch (as in Welsh, as in Morgan ...) Coal mining country (or was
anyway) ... and quondam home to the world's longest flower box). Haven't had
any of them in several years ... ????! (Japanese expression of nostalgia.)

Mike Morgan
KCUFS

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it (fresh wasabi) was cheaper there,
EVEN if it were imported from Japan. When I first started studying Japanese
(many moons ago) I found that it was cheaper to buy the books (written and
published here in Japan) when I managed to find my way to the Kinokuniya
bookstore ... in San Francisco.

* For those not steeped in Anatolian Turkish language, culture  and history,
this is my version of Atat?rk's "T?rk?m diye, ne mutlu" ("How happy to say
"I am a Turk!"). I can remember my son coming home from the creche at the
university where we taught practicing these words so many years ago.
Somehow, like MOST of my (many) K?rmanc and (fewer) Zaza friends (and one
good friend who was a second generation Syrian-Turk and an Alevi .. a double
whammy!), he eventually learned to not be too sad that he wasn't ...

** A long time ago, before even I was born, my folks lived in Washington
Sate (Tacoma, not Seattle), where my older brother was born. My mom's story
goes that soon after they moved in she went to the local grocer's and when
she couldn't find it, she asked the grocer where the white cornmeal was. His
response: "That's damn n.gg.r's food!" My mom's response: never go into that
store again. Having grown up eating white cornmeal and playing and going to
church (Baptist) with "n.gg.rs" ALL her childhood, she was offended. And
maybe a little ashamed for the grocer. As you say, Ron, things DO change.
Hopefully and Thank god!

P.S. Here in Japan, it's just the start of Golden Week; now maybe THAT's a
reason to be glad I'm here! Seven days until my next class! Maybe I will
even have time to get around to my Lowlands-List anniversary contribution!
(And JR West time to finish cleaning up after the big train crash in
Amagasaki, about 25 minutes from here, that killed 102 ... and counting.
Including a friend of a friend.)

And, I was too busy at the time to remember, but a Happy New Year (Nepali
New Year: Vikram Era 2062, Newari New Year: Nepal Sambat 1125) to all!

           ?????????? ???? ???? ??? ???!

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (06) [E]

> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]
>
> Ron:  "Do you know it, dear Americans of the Southern persuation?"
>
> Yes, I've heard of it, but gratefully never had to eat it.  Both of my
> parents come from Tennessee and were familiar with it as poke salad.  In
> fact there was a popular song from the late 60's early 70's called "Poke
> Salad Annie."  I'm not a fan of turnip greens or any of that stuff.  I
> like
> spinach, but the greens are just too bitter.  It probably comes from
> traumatic experiences in my childhood as a preacher's kid.  The members of
> the church paid the pastor so little that they often felt obligated to
> give
> us food from their garden.  One man grew enough turnip greens each year to
> make the Jesus and the loaves stories look like nothing but chips and
> salsa.
> I mean this guy could grow some turnip greens!  So, every few days he
> would
> bring us grocery bags full of them.  That's the old brown paper sacks that
> would hold nigh on a bushel!  Well, maybe a little exaggeration there, but
> it was way too much for this Southern boy.  I have come to despise turnip
> greens.  The only time I found them good at all was a few years ago when
> an
> African-American woman cooked some for a lunch party at the office.  She
> told me that I would like them if I had them cooked right.  Well, they
> WERE
> good, but truthfully little squares of cardboard would have tasted good
> the
> way she cooked them.  Butter, and salt, and butter, and salt, and who
> knows
> what else.  They had to have an ambulance on stand-by for any sudden heart
> attacks.  No, not really, but they couldn't have been good for the heart.
> Maybe someone else will have fonder memories of poke salad and turnip
> greens.
>
> Mark Brooks

As Ron said, she probably used hamhocks, or maybe fatback.  Bacon will also
do the trick.  Top off a serving with a dash of vinegar (better yet, pickle
juice!).  Turnip greens, mustard greens, collard greens... love 'em all.
Add a slice of country ham, some cornbread (no sugar in it, please) or
buttermilk biscuits, maybe some pinto beans or fried okra, and you've got a
good Southern meal.

Kevin Caldwell

--------------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Still a bit peckish, boys?

Mark:

> Next you're going to tell me that the ??? (fresh raw Japanese horseradish)
> in your oriental grocer's doesn't cost an arm and a leg a shoot (the going
> price
> here at my local supermarket, last I looked).

It ain't cheap, cost just about a finger and a toe.

> Please tell me you can't get ??????? (mountain burdock roll sushi)

You can get it (for a couple of fingers and toes of course) once in a while,
at better restaurants.

> at
> your local ??????? (the kind of sushi bar where the sushi plates go
> round and round until they are three days old or fall off the conveyor
> belt ...
> I forget what you/we/they call such places in English)!

"Lazy Susan's Lair -- Lounge, Grill, Bar, Karaoke and Saturday Nights Lap
Dance"?

> As you say, Ron, things DO change. Hopefully and Thank god!

Oh, they have!  But of course, they could change some more.  Tacoma is very
diverse now, and Seattle has not only very large Chinese, a large Japanese
expat community (though not as large as that of Vancouver, B.C.), hence an
abundance of Japonicae, usually at lower prices than in Japan (many
vegetables being grown here, since the climate is very much like in Japan).
This includes a Kinokuniya Bookstore branch (one of my haunts) with a large
selection of Chinese books etc. on top (literally).  There is an abundance
of Zen halls -- Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Western and mixed, besides other
types of Buddhist places.  There are currently Golden Week displays, also at
a couple of the Buddhist temples, and other seasonal festival displays all
year round, as well as a Bon Odori mass street dancing and fair every June.
In San Francisco there's a Japantown with a nice basement restaurant haunt
decorated like an old-time town.  There are similar things in Los Angeles.
So, Mark, you wouldn't feel deprived on the West Coast.

And thanks for your help with the holidays, Mark.  You're hired.  I'm afraid
I set a precedence I can't keep up with.  ;-)

Hey, Kev!

> Top off a serving with a dash of vinegar (better yet, pickle juice!).
> Turnip
> greens, mustard greens, collard greens... love 'em all.  Add a slice of
> country ham, some cornbread (no sugar in it, please) or buttermilk
> biscuits,
> maybe some pinto beans or fried okra, and you've got a good Southern meal.

Now you're talking!  Total yummage!  I completely approve of your taste in
greens, and I share your opinion about cornbread as well.  It's always good
to find a kindred soul.

And not to forget blackeyed peas with a dash of Tobasco!  Oh, and green
fried tomatoes!

Non-Americans, note that blackeyed peas are not peas but beans
(cream-colored with a black dot) and that American biscuits are nothing like
biscuits (or "bickies") in your book (which are "cookies" here) but are a
bit more like spoonbread, often eaten with gravy.  "Go figure," as they say.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 19:59:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:59:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.28 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.125938.0700.>

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: Blue Ridge Institute Site [E]


Oh, as I often do, I forgot to even say what it was that go me started off
talking about where my mother was from, etc.

As I said, she's from Ferrum, VA, which is home to Ferrum Junior College (or
it used to be Junior, a long time ago, and it's where my folks met). Anyway,
they are now host to the Blue Ridge Institute, specializing in Appalachian
culture, and a Folklife Festival in the autumn. And their online site is
located at:

http://www.blueridgeinstitute.org/

I haven't looked at it for some time (unitl I just remembered about it as I
was starting my "Delectables" email about mustard and collard greens), but a
quick glance shows that they currently have an online exhibition with some
downloadable music (about 12 songs with lyrics and Real Audio downloadable
files, and an equal number with just lyrics). Haven't downloaded any of them
yet (but plan to), so I don't know how "down-home" it is, but I'm sure some
of you, like me, would enjoy a gander and a listen to.


MWMorgan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 20:18:33 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:18:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.28 (09) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.131833.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (07) [E/LS]

Hi, Reinhard,

you translate our (Frankish-influenced, obviously) 'Ackerm?nnchen' into
'[little] husbandman'. The origin, for my opinion, is the way these little
birds are following a plough and picking up all those delicious things,
thrown and digged up for their special pleasure- somehow a more direct
relation to 'acre', freshly ploughed land.
I could watch  them doing this at many occasions.

'Husbandman' to me seems to be too far away from the original reason for
this name. Could you agree, or is there no better way to describe it in
current English?

These birds, by the way, always have been my special favorites, and the
yellow type is called G: 'Schafstelze', because they often follow a
herd/group of sheep to pick up beetles, worms and flying insects who appear
in the special neighbourhood of sheep.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen, Jonny!

> 'Husbandman' to me seems to be too far away from the original reason for
> this name.

Actually, "husbandman" is the classical, standard equivalent of German
_Ackermann_, as in the Grimm's dictionary:

<quote_

 ACKERMANN, m. agricola, rusticus, ahd. acharman, acharbigengo, ags.
?cermon, ?cerceorl, altn. akrma?r, schw. ?kerman, nnl. akkerman; in der
volkssprache ackersmann, ein mann des ackers. wird auch f?r das kraut acorus
calamus und einen k?fer, scarabaeus agricola, tenebrio agricola, vermutlich
weil er in der erde w?hlt, gebraucht.
ACKERM?NNCHEN, n. motacilla, die auch in Frankreich hin und wieder semeur,
s?emann, in Schweden s?des?rla, plog?rla, altn. erla heiszt, laboriosa, von
erja arare, laborare, schw. ?rja. die volkssage verglich wol die r?hrige
bewegung des schwanzes bei diesem vogel dem pfl?gen.

</quote>

However, I think what you have in mind is something like "gleaner" (< < Old
French _glenere_ > _glaneur_), related to "to glean" (< Old French _glener_
~ _glainer_ > _glaner_) 'to pick left-overs after harvest'.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 21:22:57 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:22:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.28 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.142257.0700.>

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]


Well, Leicester achly. Bit more saath, burra doont sahnd too diffrent. Live
in Notts nah.

Paul

----------

From: Clarkedavid8 at aol.com <Clarkedavid8 at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]

Go on - I bet your mother didnt talk to you like that.

david clarke

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Apr 28 21:25:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:25:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.28 (11) [E]
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From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.28 (08) [E]


Near's ah kin reckin, yor folks hailed fom but two cahnties 'n a few hollers
fom mahn.  'N thet old-timey music's down-home sure.

Thanks for steering me on to it, Mike.....happy listening!

Marsha

Off topic P.S. to  Ron - try horseradish, a little sour cream and a dash of
salt and pepper on fresh corn kernals - YUM!  Also good mixed into tuna
salad.
  From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
  Subject: Blue Ridge Institute Site [E]

  Oh, as I often do, I forgot to even say what it was that go me started off
  talking about where my mother was from, etc.

  As I said, she's from Ferrum, VA, which is home to Ferrum Junior College
(or
  it used to be Junior, a long time ago, and it's where my folks met).
Anyway,
  they are now host to the Blue Ridge Institute, specializing in Appalachian
  culture, and a Folklife Festival in the autumn. And their online site is
  located at:

  http://www.blueridgeinstituteorg/

  I haven't looked at it for some time (unitl I just remembered about it as
I
  was starting my "Delectables" email about mustard and collard greens), but
a
  quick glance shows that they currently have an online exhibition with some
  downloadable music (about 12 songs with lyrics and Real Audio downloadable
  files, and an equal number with just lyrics). Haven't downloaded any of
them
  yet (but plan to), so I don't know how "down-home" it is, but I'm sure
some
  of you, like me, would enjoy a gander and a listen to.

  MWMorgan

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 00:14:35 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:14:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.28 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.171435.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]

Thanks for your thanks, Reinhard. De nada, com muito prazer.

About this A-site's motto <hold fast!>, wasn't that <hold vast> with a <v>
at first, or am I mistaken? Another thing: I don't want to spoil it, but
I saw some TV documentaries about the Netherlands in WW II, e.a about the
NSB, the Dutch political party that collaborated with the Nazi occupiers.
Their slogan <hou zee!>(or <houzee>?)" reminded me a bit of <hold fast!>,
the same rhythm, same number of words, I don't know... I just hope that no
outsiders will associate the A-site's motto with something like that,
especially none that would approve with such a resemblance. Anyway,
of course they would soon find out how tolerant and multicultural we are.

Ingmar

btw: with the language samples, can Interlingua still be under Romance and
Middelsprake under Germanic, too? Next to constructed, I mean

>Reinhard wrote:
>I have already thanked the many contributors and collaborators for their
>work on the project (listed at
>http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=colophon).  I want to
>send a special thank-you to those that went way beyond the call, such as
>Kenneth Rohde Christiansen, Ingmar Roerdinkholder, Mike Szelog (Mr. Wow!)
>and Gary Taylor, besides Mathieu van Woerkom and Henry Pijffers.  You're
>real gems, guys!
>
>OK, folks, keep it coming, and hold fast!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Moyen, Ingmar!

> About this A-site's motto <hold fast!>, wasn't that <hold vast> with a <v>
> at first, or am I mistaken?

The latter.  The <f> version is the only one understood throughout the
"territory,"  _ook g?ntsyds den Kanaal un dat Grote Water_.

> Their slogan <hou zee!>(or <houzee>?)" reminded me a bit of <hold fast!>,
> the same rhythm, same number of words, I don't know... I just hope that no
> outsiders will associate the A-site's motto with something like that,
> especially none that would approve with such a resemblance. Anyway,
> of course they would soon find out how tolerant and multicultural we are.

Oh, thanks for telling me now, after I created all them lovely buttons!  ;-)
Anyway, I hardly think the association is that strong.  Or am I deluded?

> btw: with the language samples, can Interlingua still be under Romance and
> Middelsprake under Germanic, too? Next to constructed, I mean

All righty then, since you've been so helpful.  It's done, and this applies
to James' Jameld version also.

Thanks again!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 03:13:18 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:13:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.04.28 (13) [E]
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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: Culture

Some of you may find this new website developed by 'The Scotsman' of
interest.

This month scotsman.com introduced a website that is a direct response to
your feedback. It offers our global readership a living, breathing picture
of Scotland's history. The site includes a range of categories - Great
Scots, Historic Places, Traditions & Culture, and the already popular Myths
& Mysteries.
Take a minute (or several minutes) to look at the site. We pull out our
scorebook and rate some of the wilder myths of Scotland. An expert on the
life and times of Bonnie Prince Charlie offers up a colourful and accurate
tale into the many women who touched his life. And the man behind Scotland's
application for World Heritage status of a Roman relic gives us a historic
account of the country's very own "great wall".
Scottish Heritage and Culture presents a daily dose of lively news and
features, interactive maps and video, as well as a robust list of cultural
events in Scotland. This newsletter, distributed free to those who sign up,
is part of that experience. It was delivered to all scotsman.com readers as
our way of saying hello and offering you the opportunity to experience an
online voyage through Scotland's vibrant heritage and culture.

This week we will take you on a tour of Inch Kenneth. The tiny and desolate
western isle was once the home of Unity Mitford, a Nazi sympathiser whose
fascination for Adolf Hitler led to her attempting suicide. We look inside
the former Mitford home where, more than 50 years after her death, the rooms
look eerily the same.
Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 04:18:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:18:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.28.APR.2005.211838.0700.>

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From: Thomas Byro <greenherring at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (07) [E]

To Mike Morgan and Ron:

My last wife ran a herb/organic vegetable shop in Pennsylvania.  To
meet demand, I would dig up burdock roots but the labor was so intense
that I never want to repeat the experience.  I would also gather up
wild poke shoots, which are a favorite spring tonic among the Amish.
They inform me that they taste like asparagus.

My childhood girlfriend's family in Espelkamp in Westphalia made
something that they called "milk soup".  I am embarassed to admit that
I used to enjoy something so humdrum.  As memory serves me, it seemed
to be sweetened boiled milk with clamshell type pasta.  Does anyone
have a recipe?

Tom Byro

----------

From: waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (07) [E]

Hai Mike and Ron,
I  have read your postings on "??? very interesting. At home we use
mostly "wasasbi tube", when we eat "??????? and other sashimi. Raw
fresh "????we can get at any supermarket or grocery. I havbe never
thought that I could read some on "???here in this discussion.

Regards,

Yasuji

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Hi, Tom!

When I was a kid in Hamburg (and times were leaner then), we youngsters
would regularly eat "milk soup" (German _Milchsuppe_, Missingsch
_Meejchsubbe_, Low Saxon _melksup_ <Melksupp>) for supper, all of them based
on sweetened milk.  The most typical one was with semolina, sometimes with
rice (and sugar and cinnamon), more times with oatmeal (G.
_Haferflockensuppe_).  My favorite was what in Missingsch we called
_Schogol?densubbe_ "chocolate soup," cocao added to the semolina type, I
think.  We did not know the type you mentioned.  In the summertime, a
special treat was "sour milk" (G. _saure Milch_ ~ _Sauermilch_, M. _saure
Meejch_, LS _sure melk_ ~ _suurmelk_), i.e.,  milk left to stand in the open
to separate, go chunky and sour, then sprinkled with sugar, simetimes
berries or chunks of fruit ... and eaten of course.  (I know it sounds
disgusting, but it actually tastes quite good, yoghurty, buttermilky and
refreshing.)  Irish and English friends told me that that's what they had as
children too.  This was when milk was still full-fat and not pasteurized.

Yasuji:

> I havbe never
> thought that I could read some on "???here in this discussion.

Well, sushi has taken the world by storm, to a lesser degree sashimi (raw
fish without rice), and with them came wasabi.  It has also "invaded" the
Lowlands  (although many people are still too scared to try it, especially
in the _kruysch_ "picky" European Lowlands).  Here in North America it's now
gone beyond being just "chic" food (which it currently is among the
flamboyant nouveau riche population of Moscow).  Sushi, teriyaki (Japanese
grill) and also ramen (a type of Japanese noodle soup derived from Northern
Chinese ?? _lamian_ "pulled noodles"  -- originally made by hand) have
become staples in many North American circles (ramen mostly as poor people's
food).  Wasabi has taken on a life of its own by being added to things other
than traditional Japanese foods -- for instance as a coating for various
nuts and crackers.  I recently talked with some "kids" in California that
did not even know that sushi is not originally American food ...

Especially sashimi is my weakness.  You give it to me, along with some miso
soup, and I instantly revert to being a carnivore ...  (Japanese cuisine may
be difficult to get used to for many, but once you're used to it you're
hooked on it for the rest of your life.)

Similarly, tofu (bean curd, which is also used in Chinese, Korean and
Vietnamese cooking) has been around for about 40 years and is now a real
staple food here, not only in my home.  (I know about fourteen bezillion
ways of making it tasty.)  You get all of this in ordinary American grocery
stores now.  When I go to local Asian grocery stores, there are many, many
non-Asians buying very specific Japanese, Chinese and Korean foods.  They
are definitely not novices, know exactly what they want.  You would be
surprised to see it.  Of course, this is typical of the West Coast from
Vancouver to San Diego, less so in much of the rest of Canada and the US.

In actual fact, East Asian influences on the American westcoast and on
Australia -- and of course particularly on Hawai'i -- are so strong now that
it could be a vast discussion topic on its own.  In Hawai'i this includes
strong linguistic influences on English.  Since this East Asian influence,
along with Mexican influence, is very strong in California (the world's 8th
largest economy), it will probably be "propelled" from there to the rest of
the world via the entertainment industry, and this is now well under way.
So this is not really an off topic.

The next thing to watch is (East) Indian and Pakistani cuisine which has
already made great inroads here (though isn't anywhere near the level it is
in Britain).  Our South Asian population is growing by leaps and bounds.
There is now a sizeable American- and Canadian-born population of Indian and
Pakistani descent.  India, with its immeasurable wealth of highly educated
people, is now greatly profitting from American industrial outsourcing, and
all this is impacting the culture here.  Berkeley, California, now has a
small Indiatown, and Vancouver, BC, has a rather large one.

And there is long-standing Indonesian cooking influence in the Netherlands
(now starting here as well) ... another vast topic.

And, frankly, I welcome and love it all.  :-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 16:50:41 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:50:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.095041.0700.>

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From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.28 (10) [E]


Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
"Well, Leicester achly. Bit more saath, burra doont sahnd too diffrent. Live
in Notts nah."

Yeah, ah yan terd much o the wey Lester foewk tok an wot wods yeh use
(gierrus a few o yuh special wods), but its olweys saans veri cloews tee
Notts... aye yerd a bloewk frem Nothampton on thuh news wen nah wo rova in
Derbyshuh thuh uther weegk en nah thot even nee saandit well lak Notnum, so
wah wonder raa saath East Midlans tok achli goews. Raan the noth wes tay
Derbyshuh it gets sol Manky lak, an on a line runnin thro the middle ay
Notnumshuh it gets ol Yokshuh lak. Ah olwyes reckon East Midlans is thuh
fost tay thuh nothun dialecks ay English (or thuh las tay um, which yuh
prefer).

David Clarke wrote:
"Go on - I bet your mother didn't talk to you like that."

You're right. My mother's Cornish.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Reinhard, I'm intrigued again by your (Hamburg) Missingsch, particularly
what is so Low Saxon about it? It looks very High German at first sight,
M Meejchsubbe vs LS melksup etc.
<Schogol?desubbe> reminds me of the discussion we had before about voicing
stops in Danish, where I stated they could be originally from Northern Low
Saxon. Is this voicing of voiceless intervocal stops a rule in Hamburg
Missingsch? Or in the local Low Saxon too?

Ingmar

> R. F. Hahn :
>
>When I was a kid in Hamburg (and times were leaner then), we youngsters
>would regularly eat "milk soup" (German _Milchsuppe_, Missingsch
>Meejchsubbe_, Low Saxon _melksup_ <Melksupp>)for supper, all of them based
>on sweetened milk.  The most typical one was with semolina, sometimes with
>rice (and sugar and cinnamon), more times with oatmeal (G.
>_Haferflockensuppe_).  My favorite was what in Missingsch we called
>_Schogol?densubbe_ "chocolate soup," cocao added to the semolina type, I
>think.  We did not know the type you mentioned.  In the summertime, a
>special treat was "sour milk" (G. _saure Milch_ ~ _Sauermilch_, M. _saure
>Meejch_, LS _sure melk_ ~ _suurmelk_), i.e.,  milk left to stand in the
open
>to separate, go chunky and sour, then sprinkled with sugar, simetimes
>berries or chunks of fruit ... and eaten of course.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Ingmar!

I wrote:

> <Schogol?desubbe>

Which should have been <Schogol?dnsubbe>.  Sorry.

Thanks for the question.

There is a lot that is Low Saxon about Missingsch, especially in grammar and
idiom, but there is a lot in phonology as well, including intonation, vowel
quality, and aspiration patterns.

Aspiration patterns is at the root of what you are asking.  The more
easterly North Saxon dialects (if not pretty much all of them), as well as
most northeastern dialects, do have aspiration (i.e., adding a puff of air)
of voiceless stops (like most German and English dialects and unlike most
Low Franconian varieties.)  However, the aspiration rules for Low Saxon are
different from those in Standard German and in most English dialects of
Britain, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand.  In fact, you can simplify
it in gegeral terms like this:

(1) Standard German aspirates like non-American English.
(2) Low Saxon and Missingsch aspirate like American English.

Type 1 aspirates all intervocalic voiceless stops.*
Type 2 aspirates all pre-vocalic stops in syllables with primary stress.

* though aspiration in syllables with non-primary stress is weaker than
aspiration in syllables with primary stress

So, aspiration in Type 2 is more restricted; e.g. (using [h] for spiration],

(1) English: tatter ['th?th3] (~ affr. ['tsh?tsh3]), paper ['phEIph3],
picket ['phIkh at t]
(1) German: Koppel ['khOph at l], Papier [pha'phi3`], tippeln ['thIph at ln]

(2) English: tatter ['th?t=r] (~ flap ['th?4=r]), paper ['phEIp=r], picket
['phIk at t]
(2) N.Saxon: Koppel ['khOp=l]~['khOb=l], Papeer [pa'phEI3], tippeln
['thIp=ln]~['thIb=ln]
(2) Missingsch: Koppel ['khOp=l]~['khOb=l], Papier [pa'phi3], tippeln
['thIp=ln]~['thIb=ln]

In 2, intervocalic voicing ought to be seen as a further step, probably in
the wake of Germanization.  Even were intervocalic voicing has not taken
place in Missingsch the unaspirated stops are *perceived* and written as
voiced, because this pattern does exist in standard-focused German.  (By the
way, there are also non-northern German dialects with pattern 2.  Similarly,
in Britain there are English dialects with this pattern, also some with no
aspiration.)

Does this make it clearer?

I think of Low Saxon (and American, incl. Canadian) aspiration rules as a
stage between no aspiration (as in Low Franconian and in farwestern Low
Saxon, also as in Romance languages) on the one hand and full aspiration (as
in Standard German and Standard non-American English) on the other hand.

Ingmar, Lowlanders, sometime soon I will add my sound files, so you will be
able to hear what's going on there.

I much appreciate your interest, Ingmar.

Have a great weekend!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 15:35:30 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:35:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.083530.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Hi, Tom and Ron,

Tom:
what's hiding in  'burdock roots' and 'wild poke shoots'? Unable to find
them in my dictionary.

Ron:
The Asian influence one can watch increase in Germany as well. In special
the Chinese 'wok' you'll find in many German kitchens, though most of them
are not really suited to do the same as their homeland-originals, because
they're not hot enough.
Japanese 'sushi' (ore, something called like this) is the No. One-hit at the
moment, both in many restaurants and, being prepared, in the supermarket's,
too.

The great, long running favorite in the German 'New Cuisine', however, is
everything coming from Italy.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>In the summertime, a
special treat was "sour milk" (G. _saure Milch_ ~ _Sauermilch_, M. _saure
Meejch_, LS _sure melk_ ~ _suurmelk_), i.e.,  milk left to stand in the
open
to separate, go chunky and sour, then sprinkled with sugar, simetimes
berries or chunks of fruit ... and eaten of course.  (I know it sounds
disgusting, but it actually tastes quite good, yoghurty, buttermilky and
refreshing.)  Irish and English friends told me that that's what they had
as
children too.  This was when milk was still full-fat and not pasteurized.<

The original Miss Muffet's curds and whey!
A personal No! No!  tho' I quite like a cheese made from the curds with
salt, garlic and fresh chives added. Yummy!

Buttermilk is still available in Welsh shops    as a drink or for use in
tatws llaith   ( mashed potato with buttermilk)
but noone will have even heard of it in English supermarkets/ shops.

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Jonny:

> what's hiding in  'burdock roots' and 'wild poke shoots'? Unable to find
> them in my dictionary.

"Burdock (root)" is _Klettenwurz_ in German.  It's a long brown tuber with
an inside about the color of a parsnip (_Pastinake_, _Moorwurzel_).

"Pokeweed" or "poke salad" -- a native American plant -- is called
_Kermeswurzel_ in German, its botanical name being _ Phytolacca decandra _.
"Wild poke" is the wild, un-cultivated plant, and "shoots" are very young
plants, _Spr?sslinge_.  "Poke," formerly "pocan," is derived from _uppowok_
or _apooke_ in Algonquian languages of Virginia, related to Narranganset
_puck_, all meaning 'smoke', because the dried leaves of this plant are
traditionally smoked and therefore used to be referred to as "Indian
tobacco."

> The great, long running favorite in the German 'New Cuisine', however, is
> everything coming from Italy.

Oh, don't tell me there's an obsession with everything Tuscany, too!  I'm
getting so sick of it here, and so are Italian acquaintances, rolling their
eyes.  As though Tuscany were the only worthwhile region of Italy ...

Heather:

> Buttermilk is still available in Welsh shops    as a drink or for use in
> tatws llaith   ( mashed potato with buttermilk)
> but noone will have even heard of it in English supermarkets/ shops.

Do they call it "Buttermilch"?

This tatws llaith is delicious, is the same in Sorbian cuisine (though I
have forgotten the name), is not as common as Sorbian smashed potatoes with
quark and linseed oil, though.

By the way, traditionally, boiled beef with horseraddish (_chr?n_) is *the*
special dish in Sorbian cuisine, is the crown course of a traditional
wedding feast that starts with the famous "wedding soup."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 14:52:00 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:52:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.075200.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]

Hi, Larry,

You wrote:
> In the States, it's thought that horseradish is a corrupted translation of
> the German "meerrettich" meer-mare-horse.

Isn't it amazing - I myself just had been on the opposite way. I thought it
could be a wrong transition of 'Peer-Rettich', meaning LS: 'Peer-', E:
'horse-' and '-radish'. Because- I don't think that there is any connection
to G:'Meer' (deriving from Latin:'mare'), E: 'the sea'.

Perhaps its origin really is the Old Saxon/OHG: 'marh', HG: 'Maehre',
meaning  E:'[old] horse', though I also found in OHG: 'menwa, menewa, manwa,
maniwa' for 'horseradish'.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 14:46:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:46:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.29 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.074619.0700.>

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.28 (12) [E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder
> <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.27 (05) [E]

[...[
> I saw some TV documentaries about the Netherlands in
> WW II, e.a about the
> NSB, the Dutch political party that collaborated
> with the Nazi occupiers.
> Their slogan <hou zee!>(or <houzee>?)" reminded me
[...]

Hello:

The Dutch Nazi greeting 'hou zee' was influenced and inspired by the
Icelandic greeting 'heill og s?ll'.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Thanks, Theo.

For those who don't already know, this Icelandic greeting is derived from
_Kom heill og s?ll, fr?ndi!_, literally "Come whole and happy, kinsperson!"
_Kom heill!_ by itself can be used as "Welcome!"  Needless to say that none
of this by itself has any connection with fascism, except that the Nazis in
their "pure Germanic" obsession looked at Icelandic and its speakers as the
best preserved specimens of their ideal.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 19:37:38 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:37:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.123738.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.21 (05) [A/E]

Haai, Elsie, Ron:

Onderwerp: LL-L "Etymology"

Verskoon tog dat ek so laat in die maand die gesprek optel.

> En hier in Suid Afrika is Duitsers vir baie jare deur veral die Kaapse
> gemeenskappe as "Duisters" bekend gestaan. Die taalverskynsel is natuurlik
> bekend as taalverspringing.
> 'n Witmens was 'n "Duusman" genoem.

Is jy seker van die uitdrukking 'Duusman'? Indien wel klink dit vir my die
teenoorgestelde rigting van ontwikkeling in die Onderkaapse dialekte, wat
ieder die 'uu' met 'ie' wissel.

Hoe ookal, ek ontleed die benoeming van 'n 'Wit Afrikaner' uiteroorsprong
die naam Dietsman.

> Afrikaans _duister_ 'dark' directly corresponds to Low Saxon _duyster_
> (<d??ster> ['dy:st3`]) 'dark'.

Ron, what about the Norse English name for the 'thorn' rune, 'Thurz' =
'demon'? (Assuming it's pertinant.

 Regards,
Mark

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.24 (01) [E]

Dear Ingmar & Ron:

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

I also have some questions about 'ron' as the Hebrew origin of a Middle
English word. Far more likely is the derivation from 'r?n' = secret, verse,
&c. hey? It is of course a thread reaching way back to Indo Germanic, so
surely there'd be tags in justabout all our languages, but I doubt if it has
anything to do with running.

 Groete,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Mark!  Welcome back!

You write above:

> Ron, what about the Norse English name for the 'thorn' rune, 'Thurz' =
> 'demon'? (Assuming it's pertinant.

Nah, I don't think so.  It's just one of many taboo replacements for
_duyvel_, starting alike and having a sinister meaning ('dark (one)').

> I also have some questions about 'ron' as the Hebrew origin of a Middle
> English word. Far more likely is the derivation from 'r?n' = secret,
> verse,
> &c. hey?

Oh, not another doubting Thomas!  Put this pinch of pokeweed in your pipe
and smoke it:

"Nalde ha nane ronnes ne nane luue runes leornin ne lustnen." (ca. 1225)

If I'm not mistaken, it means something like this:

"He did not want to have any *rons*, nor did he want to learn or enjoy any
love *runes*."

I take it that "runes" here could mean either "incantation" / "charm" or
"song."

OK, everyone, here are a few notable items taken from my Middle English
translation at the Anniversary site:


FOUL 'bird' < OE fugel, fugol, fugul (cf. ModE fowl; D/LS vogel, G Vogel, Y
foygl 'bird')



BRID(DE) 'young bird' < OE bryd, byrd (cf. ModE bird; brood; breed)

FRAYNEN 'to ask' < fregnan, frignan, fr?nan (cf. dialModE frayne, freyne,
D/LS vragen, G fragen, Y fregn)

UN-WIGHT 'monster', 'boogey' < ON ?v?ttr (cf. dialModE unwight, G Unwicht)

FORBY 'past' (cf. dialMod.E forby(e), D voorbij, LS voerby, G vorbei; Sc
forby 'besides')

MICHEL 'large' (cf. dialModE mickle, ModE much, Sc muckle, OS mikil, MidD/S
m?kel, OG mihhil, mihhal)

UMBE 'around' < OE ymbe (cf. obsModE umbe~embe, D om, LS ?m, G/Y um,
MidS/MidG umbe)

HERNE < OS hyrne 'corner' (cf. dialModE hern ~ hirn, LS hoyrn, OF herne, ON
hyrna)

FORFEREN 'frighten' (cf. obsModE forfear, LS ververen <verfehren>), related
to "fear"

RUGGE 'back' < OE hrycg  (cf. obsModE rug, ModE ridge; D rug, LS r?g(ge(n)),
G R?cken, Y rukn 'back')

STAPPE 'footstep' < OE st?pe (ModE step, LS stap(pe), G Stapf(e))

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 21:53:09 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:53:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (08) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.145309.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Dear Thomas, Mike and Ron (if I may mix in):

> My childhood girlfriend's family in Espelkamp in Westphalia made
> something that they called "milk soup".  I am embarassed to admit that
> I used to enjoy something so humdrum.  As memory serves me, it seemed
> to be sweetened boiled milk with clamshell type pasta.  Does anyone
> have a recipe?

Maybe we have something like it in South Africa, which we call 'melkkos' =
milk-food.

Any noodles will do, but clamshells are nice because they trap a lot of
sauce. Warm a bowlful of milk gently & slowly, sweeten it to taste,
preferably with something other than refined suger - like brown sugar or
honey, spice it with fine-ground cinnamon & a very little fresh nutmeg, then
if the sick child needs it, also a short shot of brandy. It can be eaten
just like that or thickened by stirring in a rennet tablet, to make junket,
& sprinkled lightly with chocolate powder. In the old days it would be
thickened with a spoonful of milk that had been left in a food-safe to
thicken by itself over a couple of days ('moeder'). There are alternate
flavours - rosewater for one, with a bit of lemon-peel grated into it for
zest, or else a naartjie skin. Do you call this last a clementina?

No surprise you liked it!

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <UWoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.28 (14) [E]

Ron wrote:

> In the summertime, a
> special treat was "sour milk" (G. _saure Milch_ ~ _Sauermilch_, M. _saure
> Meejch_, LS _sure melk_ ~ _suurmelk_), i.e.,  milk left to stand in the
> open
> to separate, go chunky and sour, then sprinkled with sugar, simetimes
> berries or chunks of fruit ... and eaten of course.  (I know it sounds
> disgusting, but it actually tastes quite good, yoghurty, buttermilky and
> refreshing.)  Irish and English friends told me that that's what they had
> as
> children too.  This was when milk was still full-fat and not pasteurized.

Moin Ron,

h??t ward de Melk suur, wenn se in de K??k steihn lettst. Fr?her is se dick
worrn. Wi hebbt se in Bremen Dickmelk n??mt. Echt lecker w??r se mit
rinkr?melten Swattbroot un Sucker. Och, wat hebbt wi dat geern eeten.

Mit Kumpelment
Utz H. Woltmann

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

[English below]

Och, leyve Utz, wees bedankt v?r 't an-stoeten!  Af un an besint 'n sik up
d'n eyrsten stoot nich so recht.  (Wil hoepen, us Jonny het d?t nich hoyrd
...)

Ja, nip un nau so is dat west, as Du dat verklaard hest.  *Dikmelk*!  Ja, so
hebt wy er ook noymd, wen sey kluytig was.  Un, ja, wy hebt er ook vaken mit
swat-brood un tsukker eten.  Dat was 'n armere tyd, man wy woyrden dat eyrst
later wys. Kenst noch smult up brood, gryben-smult as wat heyl bes?nners?
;-)

Our Utz just reminded me (in his usual gentle and kind manner) that the sour
milk I was talking about was called _dikmelk_ (<Dickmelk>) "thick milk," at
least in his home (in Bremen, not far from my native Hamburg).  Indeed,
*that* is what we called it!  _Suurmelk_ is just sour milk, which is what
you get these days if you allow milk to stand at room temperature.  Because
it was not pasteurized then, milk would clot, get thick and lumpy as well as
sour.  Utz explained that a special treat in his childhood was _dikmelk_
with _swa(r)tbrood_ (<Swartbroot> ~ <Swattbroot> "black bread") crumbled on
top and sugar sprinkled over that.  Yep!  That's what we had too, and we
thought it was just wonderful ...  Which got me to reminisce like a real
old-timer about relatively simple foods having been real treats for us kids
during those leaner times, the lean part having been just normal for us at
the time (not all that long after World War II, when Germany's "Economic
Miracle" had barely gotten off the ground).  Going down memory lane a bit
farther, I asked Utz if he remembered sandwiches with nothing but lard (LS
_smult_, G _Schmalz_) on them, _gryben-smult_ (<Griebensmult>, G
_Griebenschmalz_, lard containing bits of greaves/clackling) being a special
treat ...  (Are the youngsters among us sufficiently turned off by this
old-timer talk by now, or is it of any interest to them?)

Oh, dear Marsha!  I meant to respond to your tip:

>  Off topic P.S. to  Ron - try horseradish, a little sour cream and a dash
> of
> salt and pepper on fresh corn kernals - YUM!  Also good mixed into tuna
> salad.

Woa!  I can imagine it very well in tuna salad, perhaps even egg salad.
I'll have to try the corn thing.  It sounds quite intriguing.  I might have
to do it with frozen corn though, preferably white corn.  My wife, having
been born and raised in Ohio, is a terrible corn snob.  She won't eat fresh
corn because she expects standards like in the original corn (maize) region:
the American Midwest and the corresponding Canadian provinces.  She
considers corn grown anywhere else no better than animal fodder.  It is true
that corn in the Midwest is incomparably good, but ... get over it already!
She considers West Coast corn inferior.  I wonder what she'd say about the
European-grown kind ... ;-)  Psst! Don't tell her I told you!

I think I'm now ready for a good shot of wasabi up the old honker to start
off the weekend in style ...

Have a nice weekend!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 21:54:31 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:54:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.29 (06) [E]
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.24 (03) [E]

Dear Roger:

Subject: language politics

Thanks for that article by John Daniszewski, Times Staff Writer. It's a
matter so near to my heart, mostly by virtue of an Irish Grandmother. But
one niggle - how can a man so passionate about language & Ireland be unaware
that 'spital' is an old word for hospice in both languages, out of the
Church Latin? By the way: Has somebody a clear insight into what went wrong?
How does the Irish situation differ from the Welsh, Afrikaans or Hebrew, to
say nothing of the Catalan?

Bye,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 21:54:33 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:54:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.29 (07) [A/D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.145433.0700.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.26 (03) [D/E]

Beste Jacqueline, Roger:

Onderwerp "Orthography"

> Re " het groene boekje"
>
> Roger Thijs quotes from the "Green Bible of Dutch Ortography"
>
> MMM.... Paddenstoel? Ik wist niet dat we er daarvan hadden die groot
> genoeg waren voor meer dan een pad tegelijk? Behalve dan misschien de
> "vliegen(ge)zwam. Jacqueline

Is ek nou heeltemaal van die baan af? Van wat ek weet dra (in onse Taal)
'paddastoel' geen verband met die meervoud van 'pad' maar liewers met die
tweeslagtige waterdiertjie van die genus Rana.
 Ons naam vir die oneetbare sampioen is gelyk aan die Engels 'toadstool' in
gebruik, asook aan 'n ouer Engelse naam vir die padda, 'paddock', in klank.
Mens kan daarvan lees in die heksebrou uit Shakespeare se 'Macbeth'.

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 21:54:35 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:54:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (09) [E]
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.28 (10) [E]


When my mother was growing up in the village of Aylestone (now a Leicester
inner suburb), people from Blaby 5 miles away could be identified by their
accent!

Paul

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Apr 29 23:27:22 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:27:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2005.04.29 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.162722.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: Nederlands in Opmars

Hello Lowlanders,
I saw an interesting article on De Volkskrant last night.  It seems to
indicate that Nederlands has become somewhat prestigious in France of all
places.  Could that be?

http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/1114665105426.html
<http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/1114665105426.html>

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 00:00:53 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:00:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (11) [A/D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.29.APR.2005.170053.0700.>

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.29 (07) [A/D/E]

Mark Dreyer schreef
"Is ek nou heeltemaal van die baan af? Van wat ek weet dra (in onse
Taal)
'paddastoel' geen verband met die meervoud van 'pad' maar liewers met
die
tweeslagtige waterdiertjie van die genus Rana.
 Ons naam vir die oneetbare sampioen is gelyk aan die Engels 'toadstool'
in
gebruik, asook aan 'n ouer Engelse naam vir die padda, 'paddock', in
klank.
Mens kan daarvan lees in die heksebrou uit Shakespeare se 'Macbeth'."

Hoi Mark, ik geloof dat we hier in een Babylonische spraakverwarring
terecht gekomen zijn.

Als ik jouw Zuid-Afrikaans goed begrijp. Zeg jij dat "pad" in
paddenstoel komt van het amphibische beest de pad ( bufo? ). Dat was
precies wat ik bedoelde. Ik weet niet hoe groot de Zuid-Afikaanse padden
zijn - er zijn per slot van rekeningen ook "bull frogs" -, maar
Nederlandse padden zijn klein en onze paddenstoelen (mushrooms: Both
edible and poisonous)zijn ook niet zo groot. Volgens mij niet groot
genoeg dat er meer dan een pad tegelijk op kan zitten. Vandaar mijn
geklaag over de schrijfwijze.
De vliegenzwam is de beroemde rode knolamaniet (amanita muscaria) met
witte stippels, en "vliegengezwam" was mijn mislukte poging tot een
"pun".
Wat is het toch makkelijk om elkaar niet te begrijpen. Jacqueline

Hi Lowlanders, it is very difficult to make sense in English of the
above exchange in Dutch and Zuid=Afrikaans.
The Dutch word pad has two meanings 1.pad/plural paden = Path and 2.
Pad/Padden = toad. Dutch mushrooms, whether edible or not, were always
called Paddestoel ( toad stool ) but now the orthography has changed
into paddenstoel (toads stool)and I was grumbling that there are no
mushrooms in the Netherlands big enough to hold two toads at a time.
Finally I tried to make a pun on the word vliegenzwam (fly agaric) and
vliegengezwam (some flies talking drivel), but apparently I was talking
drivel myself. Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Jacqueline, Mark, Lowlanders,

> Dutch mushrooms, whether edible or not, were always called Paddestoel

Incidentally, it's also _poggen-stoul_ (<Poggenstohl>, <Poggenstauhl>) for
all sorts of mushrooms in Low Saxon, _pog(ge)_ being 'frog', in extension
including also toads.  One of the many words for 'toad' is _uytse-pog(ge)_
(< _uyts(e)_ 'toad').  They'll have to come up with a new name for the newly
discovered exploding toads of Hamburg (which you may have heard about in the
news).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 20:04:18 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:04:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2005.04.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.130418.0700.>

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2005.04.29 (10) [E]

How exactly does this relate to "image"?

Oh, and, rather than linking to an article on a site that requires
registration (even though it's free), please quote and link.

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Image

Thanks for asking.  I suppose what I had in mind was something in the order
of "public image," "national image" and, as used before, "Language image."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 20:36:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:36:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.30 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.133645.0700.>

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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (04) [E]

In rspawnts t'dh'yusj v'daillektl spelling n'emails, ai'd'laik
t'emfasaiz dht't'siems a'bbit "overly dialectal-seperatist" wn'y'blr
wrd bawnddriz... plz lts nt do this kthxbye.

Mark

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (04) [E]


Doont ave many "special wods" in Leicester - ..

East Midlands in general tends to have less "dialect" than much of England;
I believe that this is because Mediaeval East Midlands was the main source
of Standard English.

As to being the front line of Northern speech, it is very much defined in
the south by the old boundary between Alfred's Wessex and Guthrum's Danelaw.
Though I see it as a north-south link; I tend to think of Northern starting
in the northerly parts of Derbyshire and Nottingham as you note;
particularly the clipped definite article (trouble at t'mill) which seems to
appear around Mansfield.

Paul

----------

From: Montgomery Michael <ullans at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (09) [E]

What specific pronunciations distinguished the two
places?

Michael Montgomery

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.28 (10)
>
> When my mother was growing up in the village of
> Aylestone (now a Leicester
> inner suburb), people from Blaby 5 miles away could
> be identified by their
> accent!
>
> Paul

----------

From: Cr?ost?ir ? Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (09) [E]


Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
"When my mother was growing up in the village of Aylestone (now a Leicester
inner suburb), people from Blaby 5 miles away could be identified by their
accent!"

It's the same with me. Those of my family who live in the East Midlands
prickle at my reference to speaking "Nottingham English" - they live in Long
Eaton, and strictly speaking Nottingham English is a fairly divergent accent
and dialect from "a long way away". There is even sufficient difference
between the speech of Long Eaton and Beeston (no more than three miles
apart) for it to be noticeable.

I should properly refer to my language as "East Midlands English" (which
would be broad enough a term to include your own variant), but I'm too stuck
in my ways and, in any case, most people know where Nottingham is, but very
few have any notion of what or where the East Midlands are.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criost?ir.

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.29 (04) [E]

Yes, you made clearer how the people in the city of exploding toads speak.
So you think it's possible that Juttish/Danish intervocalic voicing of
stops came from or at was influenced by neighboring Lower Saxony and
Hamburg LS? Or the other way around maybe?

But the North American similar tendency must be originally from Celtic
mutations, don't you think, i.e Irish English/Scottish/Western English.
Like in French, Occitan, in Iberian Romance (Spanish, Gal./Portuguese,
Catalan), Rhaetoromance, Northern Italian e.a. where Gaulish played a role.

In Dutch, we don't aspirate at all, it is the only Germanic language
without it. Only Northern Low Saxon dialects in Groningen and Northern
Drenthe do have it word initially, so that is the same system as in
Hamburg etc.

I think the Dutch lack of aspiration may be French influenced, starting in
the South - Brabant, Flandria, Zeeland - where <h> isn't pronounced at
all, so maybe the aspiration puff <h> disappeared too because of that.

Long ago (10 years or so) I had a girlfriend from Vienna - originating in
Burgenland, Austria - who lived in the Netherlands for a while. I remember
she had trouble differenciating <t> from <d> in Dutch, saying things like
<dee> [de:] for <thee> [te:i] = tea, etc. Probably because she heared our
unaspirated <t> as a <d>, or because she couldn't pronounce <t> without
puff, and <d> was the nearest sound to it in her repertoire.

Even our very talented Danish friend from Groningen -who is now staying at
the border of Germany and Austria in his own tropical paradize- says he
has trouble in Dutch and (Dutch) Low Saxon to discriminate <t> and <d>.
Or don't you, Kenneth ;-?

Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar,

> Yes, you made clearer how the people in the city of exploding toads speak.
> in the city of exploding toads

Or "in the state (_Land_) of exploding toads."  I'm not sure which part this
is, in or outside the actual city.  All I have heard about so far is that
its "a better part" ...

> So you think it's possible that Juttish/Danish intervocalic voicing of
> stops came from or at was influenced by neighboring Lower Saxony and
> Hamburg LS? Or the other way around maybe?

I'm not sure.  My educated guess is that it is an areal feature that spread
south to north, because this phonological feature is quite atypical within a
North Germanic context (as are several other features, especiall Jutish
ones).  I'm not sure if and how the North Frisian varieties fit in to that.

> I think the Dutch lack of aspiration may be French influenced, starting in
> the South - Brabant, Flandria, Zeeland - where <h> isn't pronounced at
> all, so maybe the aspiration puff <h> disappeared too because of that.

But it is interesting to note that non-aspiration is found virtually
throughout Low Franconian and throughout various Rhenish German groups.
Sure it could have spread throughout the entire area from a more strongly
French-influenced group, though I suspect that in the case Flemish and
Zeelandic h-deletion you're dealing with perhaps another area feature,
possibly a later one.

Also note that aspiration is lacking in numerous German dialect groups
elsewhere, far away from French-, Low-Franconian- and Rhenish-speaking
areas.  Well, there's a remote possibility that those of the east (like my
maternal grandmother's Lower Silesian one, now at the German-Polish border,
and like most dialects of the state with the ill-gotten name Saxony) lack
aspiration because of Slavonic substrates and/or because of Low Franconian
influences due to medieval colonization.

> Long ago (10 years or so) I had a girlfriend from Vienna - originating in
> Burgenland, Austria - who lived in the Netherlands for a while. I remember
> she had trouble differenciating <t> from <d> in Dutch, saying things like
> <dee> [de:] for <thee> [te:i] = tea, etc. Probably because she heared our
> unaspirated <t> as a <d>, or because she couldn't pronounce <t> without
> puff, and <d> was the nearest sound to it in her repertoire.

This is very typical among people that natively speak languages with
aspiration, as probably also speakers of Romance languages have noticed.  It
took me personally quite a lot of effort to learn to hear and imitate the
differences.  (It was even harder in Mandarin which has no voiced stops,
only pairs of voiceless stops distinguished by presence and absence of
aspiration.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 20:39:45 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:39:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.133945.0700.>

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.29 (01) [E]

But Theo, <hou zee!> doesn't look so much like <heill og s?ll>, does it?
<Hou zee> lit. mean <hold sea>, maybe an old sailors' motto, meaning
something like <keep straight course at sea>, and couldn't it be just a
variant of D. <hoezee!> = hurray! huzza!

Ingmar

Theo Homan
>>
>[...[
>> I saw some TV documentaries about the Netherlands in
>> WW II, e.a about the
>> NSB, the Dutch political party that collaborated
>> with the Nazi occupiers.
>> Their slogan <hou zee!>(or <houzee>?)" reminded me
>[...]
>
>Hello:
>
>The Dutch Nazi greeting 'hou zee' was influenced and inspired by the
>Icelandic greeting 'heill og s?ll'.
>
>vr.gr.
>Theo Homan
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Anniversary
>
>Thanks, Theo.
>
>For those who don't already know, this Icelandic greeting is derived from
>_Kom heill og s?ll, fr?ndi!_, literally "Come whole and happy,
kinsperson!"
>_Kom heill!_ by itself can be used as "Welcome!"  Needless to say that
none
>of this by itself has any connection with fascism, except that the Nazis
in
>their "pure Germanic" obsession looked at Icelandic and its speakers as
the
>best preserved specimens of their ideal.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 21:54:23 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:54:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.30 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.145423.0700.>

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners, Reinhard,

(English below)

disse Doog heff ick weller mol een nieg' Woord leert (door koomt j?mmer noch
welk, obschounst ick siet miin Kinnertiid meist elke Dag Platt snacken dou):

LS: 'Hellb?ssen', inne Meent van 'Xanthippa'.

Mi wunnert de Uutsprook van dat Prefix 'Hell-', anners heet dat door, wo dat
sou d?chdig warm is, 'H?ll'-'. Or hett dat an dennen Innen mit dennen D?vel
rein gonnix anne M?tz?
Kennt anner L??' dit Woord ook?

***

Dear Lowlanders, Ron,

these days I heard another new word (they are still coming, though I use to
talk LS nearly every day, since my lovely childhood):

LS: 'Hellboessen', in the meaning of 'Xanthippa'.

The pronounciation of the prefix 'Hell-' (spoken like in English) sounds
strange to me, because that special warm place and its related words
otherwhise is called 'Hoell-`. Or is it from different origin at the end,
nothing to do with the devil?

Do other people know and use this word too?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (11) [A/D/E]


My neice (a zoologist) advises me that the division between "frog" and
"toad" is not a real zoological one.  In Europe we tend to see two ends of a
continuum; around the world there are all grades of froads and togs.

Paul

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.29 (11) [A/D/E]

How about LS <plofpoggen> Dutch <plofpadden>? I don't know about Low Saxon
in Germany, but in the Netherlands <ploffen> or <ontploffen> means to
explode. Or would <plofbutjes> be more precise because of the locality?

Btw: I read that those <extodes> were probably slaughtered ?  masse by
crows, who picked their livers out. In case of danger, toads are blowing
themselves up, but because of the whole in thei bodies made by the crows,
they expload, all the blood and guts will come out...
Nice story, huh?

Ingmar

Reinhard:

>Incidentally, it's also _poggen-stoul_ (<Poggenstohl>, <Poggenstauhl>) for
>all sorts of mushrooms in Low Saxon, _pog(ge)_ being 'frog', in extension
>including also toads.  One of the many words for 'toad' is _uytse-pog(ge)_
>(< _uyts(e)_ 'toad').  They'll have to come up with a new name for the
newly
>discovered exploding toads of Hamburg (which you may have heard about in
the
>news).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ingmar:

> How about LS <plofpoggen> Dutch <plofpadden>? I don't know about Low Saxon
> in Germany, but in the Netherlands <ploffen> or <ontploffen> means to
> explode.

I'm not aware of _plof_.  I guess the normal way of rendering 'to explode'
be _barsten_ ~ _basten_ ~ _bassen_ (related to English 'to berst') -- so
perhaps _bastpad(den)_.

Though I would suggest the scientific name _Bufo displosus_.

> Or would <plofbutjes> be more precise because of the locality?

That would be better for (1) explosive flatfish, (2) explosive budgerigars
(parakeets), or (3) locally born and raised males either in a sudden fit of
rage or having forgotten to take their Beano before partaking of
_Arftensupp_ or _Bonensupp_ (pea or bean soup).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 23:34:51 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:34:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.30 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.163451.0700.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (03) [E]

The Other Tom recounts....


Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
Oh Wad Some Power the Giftie Gie Us
Tae See Oorsel's as Ithers See Us
Robert Burns


On 30/04/2005, at 1:35 AM,  jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de> wrote:


  Tom:
  what's hiding in  'burdock roots' and 'wild poke shoots'? Unable to find
  them in my dictionary.
Burdock root extract is used in a soft drink I only encountered in
Yourkshire, Dandelion and Burdock.
May have been popular there but to me it tasted awful.

***

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (03) [E]

Hi, Ron,

You wrote:

> "Burdock (root)" is _Klettenwurz_ in German.  It's a long brown tuber with
> an inside about the color of a parsnip (_Pastinake_, _Moorwurzel_).

Of course- it's G: _Schwarzwurzel_. Tasting nutty (in its original meaning,
;-)), and it's also called the 'little man's asparague', though it is much
harder to earn, as Tom already mentioned.

Your fingers get brown when you wash and scrab them.

Boiled with some salt, pepper and sugar with a sprinkle of lemon juice and a
little of muscate, rounded with some sweet cream or butter at the end, it's
absolutely delicious as a companion to any good old steak.

But- aftermeals sometimes you'll feel some more 'wind' in your stomach, as
usual.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (08) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:

> Kenst noch smult up brood, gryben-smult as wat heyl bes??nners?

Beste Ron,

klaar kenn ik dat noch. Af un an eet wi dat h????t noch. Kannst j??mmer
noch k????pen. An besten smeckt dat op Swattbroot. Kannst ook en beten
Solt r??verstreien.

Wat ook j??mmer noch kriggst is Suckerr????vensirup. Dat w????r fr??her
"Honigersatz". Op krosse Kn??ppel (Rundst??cke) mit en beten Bodder is dat
echt wat lecker.

Mit Kumpelment
Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (10) [E]

> From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.27 (08) [E]

> Reply for Roger Thijs regarding the onion brick.
> Hey Roger, that sounds surprisingly much like Rosti ( Dang there is no
umlaut for the o in this format), the Swiss delicacy of fried potato cake. I
have never tried to make onion cake, but I bet you can make it by frying
sliced onions in a bit of oil or butter until still soft but browning.
> Then add a little bit of potato starch and some salt in a small amount of
water mix well and pack the onions in a baking form.
> Put in the oven at 35O F for 30' or so and it should be ready. I'll have
to try that one of these days. I am getting hungry. Jacqueline

Thanks for this and other replies.
I just wanted to add:
eating the onion brick (served as appetizer) took some time, not only
because of its size, but also because it also was stone hard. It was
difficult to break it into pieces with fork and knife. Hammer and chisel
would eventually have been better tools.
I'm just wondering if R??sti is also made that hard.

Regards,
Roger
PS. Curiously the Americans use "entr??e" for the main dish, while for the
French entr??e is used for the appetizer.

----------

From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2005.04.29 (08) [E/LS]


Hey Ron,
Know very well about corn snobs, the fields are thick of them back where I
come from. Back when I owned my little tavern/restaurant, come corn season
you would have caused "jigunda
bahlen seshun" if you would have dared to say something like Evans City
Silver Queen is not as good as Saxonburg Cream n' Butter corn. Each little
'burg or hamlet or village seemed to specialize in some different or
odd-ball named type.
The sour cream on corn stirred a memory, thought that you would like this;
Corn Casserole with Sour Cream and Chili.
1 bag (16 oz. 500 g) frozen white corn
3/4 cup sour cream
4 lg. eggs
big pinch sugar
1/2 sweet red pepper, minced
as much red chili pepper, minced, as you like
1 onion, minced
2 tbsp. butter or olive oil (butter is better)
5 tbsp. fine breads, divided (3 for the batter and 2 for sprinkling on top)
salt and pepper to taste

Sweat the peppers and onion in butter or oil until just soft. Mix together
eggs with the sour cream,seasonings, then mix in the bread crumbs. Fold in
the vegetables. Pour into a buttered casserole. Sprinkle crumbs over top.
Bake in 325?? oven until set, or to your liking. You can dress this up with
shredded  Cheddar cheese or whatever you like and dare I suggest? crumbled
crisp bacon or ham stirred in. You can even add in zucchini if you care to.
Had this every corn season on Fridays with fried fish and cole slaw.

About European corn, the less said the better.

Didn't get a chance to add to the thingamajig, whatchamacallit post, was
laid up. Wanted to add the following: Joe Mahteratz, Joe Bachagalupe, Jo
Bagadonuts for when you can not remember someones name. The dreaded Joe
Bunde (Bunda) as in Mam yelling at the kids for snitching the last piece of
cake, after a chorus of not me "well who ate it, Joe Bunde?"

Time to go and snarl at the p.t. person again,
take care,
Larry

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Jonny:

> Of course- it's G: _Schwarzwurzel_.

Nee, nee, Jonny!  _Schwarzwurzeln_ (LS _swart-wurteln_, _swat-wutteln_,
_swart-worteln_, _swat-wotteln_, etc.) are different creatures:
_Scorzonera_, the one you're talking about _Scorzonera hispanica_.  In
English it's "(black) salsify" (belonging to the daisy family:
_Asteraceae_), often referred to as "vegetable oyster" due to its taste.  In
Dutch it's called _schorseneer_, also _keukenmeidenverdriet_ ("kitchen
maid's bother" because of the sticky juice), _winterasperge_ ("winter
asparagus") and _armeluisasperge_ ("poor folk's asparagus").

Burdock (_Arctium_) is a sort of burr (_Kletten_, _klyven_ ~ _kleyven_)
plant of which you can eat the taproots.  This edible root is particularly
popular in Japan where the plant is known as  ?????? _gob??_ (_gobou_).  It is
also well-liked in Korea (?? ??? _seonmo_) and in China (?????? Mandarin _niupang_ ~
_niubang_, Cantonese _ngau bong_ "cow (burdock) herb"), is also used for
medicinal purposes and drunk as tea.  Throughout Eurasia it's thought to be,
among other things, a galactagogue, i.e., something that increases lactation
(milk production).  I suspect that the English burdock and dandelion drink
started off as a medicinal potion.

I admit that the look of both sorts of roots is similar, except that burdock
ones are much thicker and longer.

I absolutely detested salsify when I was a child.  (We used to eat it with
some sort of flour-based white sauce, like pretty much all root vegetables.)
I ate it again a few years ago and found it quite palatable and
mild-tasting.  Goes to show you how sensitive children's palates are.

Utz:

> Suckerr????vensirup

Daar besin ik my ook noch an.

Roger:

> I'm just wondering if R??sti is also made that hard.

I've never come across that onion brick you talked about.  In my book,
_R??sti_ (in Allemannic manner pronounced with a "sh" sound for the "s," by
the way) is the Swiss answer to American hashbrowns: shredded potato cooked
(somewhat browned) on a griddle.  It's one of the American breakfast
favorites and is anything but hard (unless you forget about it for a few
hours).

And last but by no means least, Larry, my favorite American in Luxembourg
(Dave Singleton being my favorite Englishman in Luxembourg, whose
Anniversary sound file I totally dig):

>  Corn Casserole with Sour Cream and Chili.

Thanks.  Sounds like major yummage.  Will have to try it (with Splenda for
the sugar part, since white corn alone comes with more sugar I'm normally
allowed in one feeding -- yep, 'fraid so ...)

> About European corn, the less said the better.

Absolutely.  I'd extend that to corn anywhere outside the Americas.

Happy Easter, Larry and others of the Eastern Orthodox persuation!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Apr 30 23:36:19 2005
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:36:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.30 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.30.APR.2005.163619.0700.>

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.04.29 (07) [A/D/E]

Hello, All, I got the message about the spelling change in Dutch in 2006,
but since I don't speak Dutch, I understood nothing. What are the changes?
Ben

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