LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (08) [E]

Fri Apr 1 00:33:38 UTC 2005

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

First, dear Arthur and Robin, let me compliment you with your "Neogothic"
poem of Othmar&Atilla! I don't know if there's also music to this soldier
's song, but anyway it is fantastic enough... And romantic too, I like that

However, I have some critical remarks about it (not the song).

You said the three lines of the Crimean Gothic Catilena are:

"Wara, wara ingdalau; sku te gifa aglithau; haemysoeth forbitha ea".

But what De Busbecq (or his printer) wrote was actually:

"Wara wara ingdolou; Seu te gira Galtzou; hoemisclep dorbiza ea".

as we can see at
http://syllabus.gmxhome.de/gotica/taurica.html
where we find the original (Latin) text of De Busbecq, together with a
small vocubalary.

I think <ou> = [u] like in French, without doubt one of De Busbecq major
languages,  and in Greek - the person who tought him these words and
sentences was a Crimean Greek. I doubt it that the old Germanic thorn -
looking a bit like p or b- would have been known to him or any Crimean,
Gothic or not at that time, and then written incorrectly as p by De
Busbecq. So from DB's <hoemisclep> to your <haemysoeth> is quite a big
step. From DB's <dorbiza> to <forbitha> even bigger, not to speak of from
his <Galtzou> to your <aglithau>...

Looking at the vocabulary, I must say that I don't see why this particular
words are per se Gothic. They look much more Western Germanic to me, a bit
German, a bit Low Saxon, a bit Dutch... If Gothic or another Eastern
Germanic language would have survived so long in that Region, even it's
modern form could never look so North Western European Germanic as these
words do...
It would have kept at least more similarities with neighbouring Greek,
Turkic, Slavic, in its phonology at least, e.g. preservation of unstressed
vowels etc.
Maybe this so-called Crimean Gothics were nothing more than one of the
countless isolated old settlements from Germany in Eastern and South
Eastern Europe, both speaking High German and Low Saxon dialects.
Crimea is a part of Ukraine...

Again, this says nothing about your beautiful poem, Robin and Arthur, just
something about my opinion about this language

With all health,

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

----------

From: Marsha Alley <marshaalley at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

Unexpected benefits of membership on LL-L.....

Arthur, your mention of the Modern Language Association of America in the
notes to the poem (which is lovely, sad, haunting, by the way) sent me off
in search of them.  Not being an academic, I had no knowledge of them, can't
join, but their website does have a link to their radio program.  Looking
over the archives for 2003 I spotted a program about women writer's in
contemporary Indian literature, the very women I've been searching out since
the late 80's.  I googled a couple of names unfamiliar to me and was taken
to India.com and their wonderful store of books, music, etc.  I now have the
names of 8 authors new to me, upon whom I will undoubtedly spend the bulk of
my spare change over the next year.  I knew this knowledge must be out
there, but where to start, with limited time?

So, thank you, and dang I wish I didn't have to buy groceries!

Marsha
/serendipity abounds
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Lowlands-L
  To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
  Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:39 PM
  Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

  Robin and I composed a poem incorporating these lines. Ron Hahn has agreed
  to list it herewith, followed by our author/translator notes.
  Hope you enjoy it.
---------

From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.03.31 (06) [E]

This is fascinating, before I read this piece I always thought that the
Goths were marauding hoards similar to Ghengis Khans, not refugees fleeing
floodlands.

Anyone know anything of a nation north of Turkey who turned to Juadism
between 200 and 700AD?

Tom

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Our resident Oregonian, Marsha (above):

> /serendipity abounds

See?  This is what happens when you grace the List with the sunshine of your
presence.  I'm glad this worked out so well for you.

The Modern Language Association of America is indeed a great resource, was
so already before electronic data processing, gathering publication data not
only from the US but from all over the world.

> So, thank you, and dang I wish I didn't have to buy groceries!

You sure are not alone there.  But please do make some time to pop in at
LL-L once in a while!

And our Irish friend Tom ...

FÃ¡ilte ar ais, a ThomÃ¡is! CÃ©n chaoÃ a bhfuil tÃº?

ScrÃobh tÃº:

> This is fascinating, before I read this piece I always thought that the
> Goths were marauding hoards similar to Ghengis Khans, not refugees fleeing
> floodlands.

I'm glad this did something for you. Unfortunately, those of us who wish to
get a bit closer to the truth have to learn to wade through the biases of
written and popularized history.  No one mentally halfway balanced would
want to whitewash any of the violence the people on any side committed and
dealt with, but we would do well to realize that there are at least two
sides to every (hi)story (and (her)story).  In the Netherlands and Northern
Germany we were/are made to celebrate the birthday and victory Charlemagne
("Charles the Great"), and he was the guy that indiscriminately had large
masses of Saxons murdered in the name of Rome and Christianity, subduing
them to rob them of their beliefs, identity and social structure.  The
celebrated and romanticized crusading knights of Europe committed
unspeakable holocausts in the Middle East, victimizing mostly Muslims.  Some
of the most celebrated historical church figures, including Hildegard von
Bingen (1098-1179) and Martin Luther (1483-1546), loved carrying their
antisemitic hats and megaphones around.  And so the list goes on.

It's not accidental that one of the most enduring Hungarian men's names is
Attila ("little father," or better "daddy"), the name of the here vilified
and there glorified Hunnic leader (434-453).  Similarly, throughout the
Turkic- and Mongolic-speaking world, the name ÄŒingis ~ ÄŒengis (Chinghis ~
Chenghis) is an evergreen, not because those people admire violence and
cruelty but because they have been fed a different history of Ghengis Khan
(properly pronounced "Jengiz Khan," by the way).  And all those scary names
like "Goths," "Vandals," "Langobards" and "Barbarians" (Berbers) are
connected with similarly distorted, polarized histories.  When Mr. bin Ladin
refers to Westerners as "crusaders" (Ø§Ù„ØµÙ„Ù Ø¨Ù ÙˆÙ†) he does so to capitalize
from centuries of fear of Christians.

So thanks to Robin and Arthur for reminding us that the Goths, too, had
endured a lot of suffering, and that much of their attributed cruelty had to
do with a struggle for survival, something common to all of "tribal"
Eurasia.

> Anyone know anything of a nation north of Turkey who turned to Juadism
> between 200 and 700AD?

Hmm ... "north of Turkey" ... That's a large area.  Two ethnicities spring
to mind:

(1) the Karaim/Karaits of Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine (who use the Hebrew
alphabet to write their Turkic language varieties)
See: http://www.turkiye.net/sota/karaim.html

(2) the Khazars of a large area north of the Caucasus, apparently of mixed
origin with a large Turkic base
See: http://www.khazaria.com/

Robin and Arthur, thanks for the poignant poem that brings the Goths to life
in our minds!  Have you considered submitting it for print publication?

Coming back home to the Lowlands, below are my attempts of translating the
Gothic verse:

>     Wara wara ing-dalau
>     Scu te gifa agliÃ¾au
>    HÃ¦mysoeÃ¾ forbiÃ¾a ea,
>     Attila, Attila.
>
>     Beware, beware the plunging blade,
>     It shall bring you bitter anguish,
>     Banished from your ancestral home.
>     Attila, Attila.

Modern Low Saxon (North Saxon):

     Waar dy, waar! Dat sweyrt syn stoot
     Schal dy geven pyn un dood,
     Verbaden jou de haymaat-eyrd'.
     Attila! Attila!

     Wahr di, wahr! Dat Sweert sien Stoot
     Schall di gÃ¤ven Pien un Doot,
     Verbaden jo de Heimaateer.
     Attila! Attila!

Old English:

     Bewar, bewar Ã¾ec! BlÃ¦dgefeallu
     Scal Ã°e Æ½iefan pÄ«n ond bealu.
     CÅ·Ã¾Ã¾land is forbÃ©adan Æ½iu.
     Attila! Attila!

Compromise spelling for the ASCII dinosaurs:

     Bewar, bewar thec! Blaedgefeallu
     Scal dhe giefan pi^n ond bealu
     Cy^ththland is forbe'adan giu.
     Attila! Attila!

Old Saxon:

     UUar thÃ®, uuar! The herufelan
     Skal thÃ® gevan uundarkwelan.
     HÃªmland is farbiodan iu.
     Attila! Attila!

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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