LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 11.APR.2005 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]

As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie", searching
for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am not
going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

In Germanic we find demonstrative locatives in a right-adjoined positin
inside DPs (NPs), provided the DP starts with an attributive demonstrative
pronoun: Dutch examples are: "die man daar",  "die daar', "deze jongen
hier",  "deze hier", etc.

On the basis of "die man daar" and "die daar" we can predict "die-daar" and
maybe "die-hier" as possible attributive demonstratives. To the best of my
knowledge such demonstratives are not attested in Dutch, Frisian, or Dutch
or Frisian dialects. But they do exist in other varieties of Germanic:
Swedish "denhär" and "dendär" (sapologies if these are misspelled) and Edith
Raidt in her German book on Afrikaans mentions a southern German dialect
(Swabian I think) where "der da Stuhl" 'that there chair = that chair' is
grammatical.

"Hierdie" and "daardie" clearly are de novo creations and follow the rhe
rule for compounds (specification before head noun). They probably were
introduced into Afrikaans by L2 speakers who were used to a strong
resemblance of demonstrative pronouns and demonstrative adverbs (as for
instance in Malay: "rumah ini" 'house this' (in Bazaar Malay also "ini
rumah") and "di sini" 'here'. Similarly for Khoekhoe: "he" 'this, these' and
"heba" 'here'.).

Note that expanding "die" into "daardie" is hardly necessary (cf. German
"der Mann" 'the/that man'' --- depending upon the intonation), while "deze"
must have been a functionally acceptable form in Cape Dutch, because it is
clearly different from "die". What is more "deze" did not die until late in
the 19th century. In early Afrikaans we still find "dese' or "deuse".
Leftovers can be found in "duskant" 'this side of' and "vandeesweek" 'this
week'. The conclusion seems to be inevitable that an acrolectal "Germanic"
feature has been pushed out by a basilectal "Creole" feature.

Finally a remark on "Zealandic" I'd wish that subscribers to Lowlands
finally stop reviving this dead horse. It is absolutely clear that
Afrtikaans is "Hollandic" in so far as Dutch dialect features are concerned.
This applies both to sounds and to words: Zealandic is a southern dialect
and shares many words with Flemish dialects. [Where for instance is "kachel"
'foal' in Afrikaans?]  Furthermore, besides "ons" no other Zealandic pronoun
can be found in (the history of) Afrikaans. That is to say typical Zealandic
pronouns like "julder", "zulder", "wulder" and "joe'" [2PL, 3PL, 1PL and 2SG
resp.] do not show up in Afrikaans Similarly for typical phonological
properties of Zealandic: the strongly weakend [h] of Z does not show up in
Afrikaans. Z   does not dipthongize {i:] and [y] and so only has <ei> and
<ui-2>. Afrikaans, being Hollandic, is a diphthongizing variety. Etc. etc.

It is suprising that the Zealandic origins hypothesis, which experts --
whatever their ideas about the origins of Afrikaans -- have rejected long
ago still keeps popping up -- just like "Malayo-Portuguese", which is a
definite misnomer for "(Bazaar) Malay and Asian Creole Portuguese".

Hans den Besten

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for sharing your interesting and enlightening take on this, and
welcome to the speakers' corner!

The said structure does indeed occur in other Lowlands language varieties,
even within the "Low German" branch, albeit in reverse order.

In many Low Saxon varieties you can say _dey daar man_ or _de darige man_,
_dat hyr bouk_, etc.

As for the Zeelandic theory, I ask that folks who wish to respond to it do
so under "language varieties."

On a personal note, I don't see why we ought to consider only "either ... or
..." instead of a multi-origin possibility.  As most of us know, Dutch was
the official language at the Cape for a long, long time, and its influence
would have been continuous as a written and "high" language.  So the
existence of a very substantial Hollandic component can hardly be denied.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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