LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.13 (03) [E]

Wed Apr 13 14:40:42 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.11 (09) [E]

I don't think you can really say language deteriorates at all. You
mention "Fab" and "Telly". Are these examples of deterioration? No.
Both are simply examples of linguistic clipping, a process that happens
in every known natural language. If you've ever used the words "phone",
"deli", "sub", "demo", "condo", or "porn", to name a few of the
hundreds in English, you're carrying on the same change that's seen in
"fab" and "telly". These two are merely newer, so they haven't received
universal acceptance yet.
It certainly can be odd to hear adolescents speak. But as odd as it
may seem, they would not be talking like that if they did not expect to
be understood. Indeed they are understood. Just not by you and me.  :)
As to the question of English splitting into various extremely
different dialects and eventually even languages: it's possible but
probably unlikely to happen very soon, because the English speaking
community still to a certain degree sees itself as a community, and
Britain is in contact with North America, which is in contact with
Australia, etc. Isolated communities of speakers of English, however,
do stand a very good chance of developing their own dialects and even,
faaaar down the road, languages. But as I say, given how interconnected
English speakers are now, it seems unlikely to me.

-Ian Pollock

> The first signs of this evolvement are already there. American English
> is already so close yet so far apart from the parent stream which
> itself is also deteriorating at its lower levels. eg Awful stuff like
> 'Fab', 'Telly', and myriad other distortions. Even in Australia I
> shudder when a couple of teenage girls start going 'Yeah but, no not.
> Oh Yeah, Yeah, No.' For those of you who have watched BBC's wonderful
> 'Little Britain' Vickie Pollard is a classic case and her speech is for
> real.

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From: jverhoeven <jverhoeven at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (03) [E]

from Joyce Verhoeven jverhoeve at xtra.co.nz
Helge wrote
> I have just returned from New Zealand and from my own observation the
> Maori
> language seems to have disappeared  from the streets of New Zealand, even
> in
> those areas where there are supposed to be most of the Maori speakers
> (arounmd the East Cape of the North Island), I have not heard any of the
> Maori families I encountered speaking Maori to each other. Although great
> efforts are now undertaken to save the language such as a Maori TV channel
> it seems to go the way like Irish, it has mere symbolic importance as e.g
> in
> the haka but ceased to be the language even Maori communicate in any
> longer.
> All school-children have to learn Maori for two years at school (including
> the Pakehas, those of European descent) but often the teacher him/herself
> cannot get a complete sentence together in Maori, the Maori-newsreaders
> leave the impression that they are native English-speakers who attained a
> reasonable knowledge of the language. But I might have it all wrong, I
> wonder whether we have a native Maori speaker in our Lowlands-group who
> could prove my impression wrong, I would be more than glad if I am. The
> problem is, I have seen it all before, it is just like my native Low Saxon
> has almost entirely disappeared from the streets of Slesvig-Holsten.

> Helge
> I found your comments interesting - but I may have a different point  of
> view Maori is very much a re-emerging language - when I was growing up
> here in the 1960's
there was very little Maori spoken or learnt. Maori children  were actively
discouraged
from speaking Maori by their parents for a large part of the 1900's, (NZ
society  seemed to
like people to fit in My immigrant parents in the 1960's were discouraged by
various health
 and education professionals(?) to speak Dutch to their children - as they
felt it would disadvantage
 us in learning  English - resulting in my younger siblings not being able
to speak and  understanding
 very little  Dutch as over the years our house become predominantly English
speaking.)  But I digress
It is  probably only over the last 20 or so years that the use of Maori  is
again being encouraged -
with total immersion pre schools and schools been go set up and also many
bilingual schools -
as children who have been exposed  to this are growing up there is more
Maori being spoken,
but I guess for the majority English will always be the first language as
that is the predominant
spoken/legal  language and it is still only a small proportion of children
who go through the specialised schools,
and in the rest of the schools Maori is still very much a token effort.
Maori TV is very new having just been in existence for 1 year but is gaining
in  popularity and efforts
are constantly made  to ensure it is not just a token effort.  My experience
is that the use of Maori is now
increasing (growing up I can not recall anyone speaking Maori - even my
Maori friends or their parents.
I now do have friends who speak Maori to their children  and good or bad
more Maori words
are becoming part of our everyday language - mixed in with the English.
regards
Joyce

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.04.12 (04) [E]

Mark Brooks wrote:
"Additionally, I wonder if anyone can give us some examples of Brussels/EU
English that would perplex me?"

Mark, I think Brussels / EU English is considered perplexing because it is
notoriously bureaucratic and convoluted, rather than a separate, new
variety. There may be some influence from substrates (particularly French, I
would imagine), but that would only apply to informal internal e-mails and
memos, not to official documents.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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