LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.19 (05) [D/E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Jo Thijs <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]

Dag Jonny,

> Welk nedderdüütsche Etymologen meent, dat müss 'Tafelsteen' schreeven
> waar'n, wieldes dat Woord van lat. 'tabula' herkeem.

Het Nederlandse 'dobbelsteen' zou  van het Lat. duplus (het dubbele) komen
(Ofrans doble). Misschien zijn ze verwant?
Groeten,

Jo Thys

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.18 (03) [E/LS]


>From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
>Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.17 (08) [E]
>
>Hello, list, what is the origin of the suffix ock? I have only heard
>it in
>two words:  hillock and bullock. In hillock, it sounds like a
>diminutive. A
>bullock is a baby bull or ox, right? From where comes this suffix?
>Ben

It looks me related to (regional, dialectical) Dutch -ke(n), German -chen
which is also the diminutive. In standard Dutch it has generally developed
into -tje and its several variants (for example -pje, -je, ...)
In the older Germanic days the vowel was a long î, still so in Middle Dutch:
een mannekijn, a little man (origin of the French word "mannequin")
It often triggers umlaut as well, I think always in German, and often in
eastern Dutch dialects. We in Antwerp say "e manneke", someone I know from
some few tens of kilometers to my east says "e menneke".
It always has the neuter grammatical gender (in both languages).

But I have no sources that tell me Old English has this ending? Maybe those
2 relict forms are the only ones left since the last 1500 years...? (or
otherwise I have to look better, I'll tell if I have result)

Diederik Masure

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From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

Diederik:

> It looks me related to (regional, dialectical) Dutch -ke(n), German -chen

Isaac:

> I don't know whether this is the origin of the endings on hillock and
> bullock, but Scots has a diminutive ending -ock.
> It comes from the Gaelic -ag (the final consonant is unvoiced, I'm told),
> which is also a diminutive, cognate to Irish -óg. It's used in Scots quite
> productively, I understand, and sometimes paired with the other
> diminutive, -ie, to produce -ockie.

Both of you may be on to something there, but probably on a very ancient
level.  Add to this Slavonic diminutive _-ek_, _-ak_, _-i_, _-yk_ and _-uk_.

This seems to correspond with Iranic diminutive _-ak_, _-uk_ (e.g., Balochi
_pîruk_ 'grandfather' < _pîr_ 'old', hence "oldie") and _-ik_ (e.g., Balochi
_šanik(k)_ 'kid').

I assume that the Germanic suffixes Diederik mentions are suffix compounds
(something like *_-k-e(-n)_), just as in Slavonic you seem to get a lot of
permutations, even double diminutives, involving the _-k_ (* _-ik-'-ka_ >
_-ička_ etc.), and some of these came to be adopted by non-Indo-European
Hungarian.

The _-n_ part may be related to Celtic diminutive _-n_, _-an_, _-en_, _-yn_
(e.g., Welsh _edyf_ 'thread' -> diminutive _edefyn_, _carej_ 'carriage' ->
diminutive _carejen_ ~ _carejan_).

Our Andy writes about Scots:

"A northern diminutive suffix <ag> exists: The wee bairnag - The small
child."

(http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/nnscots.htm)

Also double diminutives as in _hooseockie_ (small house), _wifeockie_
(little woman) .

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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