LL-L "Etymology" 2005.08.01 (03) [E/German/Spanish]

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From: Mari Sarv <mari at haldjas.folklore.ee>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.30 (01) [D/E/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hi, Jacqueline!
>
> You wrote (above):
>
> The word _schmant_ (Mennonite _Schmaunt_, because /a/ -> [AU] is a rule) 
> for
> 'sour cream' was unknown to me in both Low Saxon and German until I was
> exposed more thoroughly to other dialects.  In Hamburg we say _suren raam_ 
> ~
> _suurraam_ (<suurn Rahm/Rohm> ~ <Suurrahm/-rohm>) and _saure Sahne_
> respectively, _raam_ (<Rahm>) and _Sahne_ ~ _Rahm_ being 'cream'.  Clara
> Kramer-Freudenthal, on the other hand, coming from Olland, which straddles
> the border between Hamburg and Lower Saxony, says _schmant_ (<Schmant>
> [Sma%nt]).  I am not sure if _Schmant_ always means 'sour cream' or, in 
> some
> dialects, also 'cream' in general.

In North Estonian dialects there is a well-known word "mant" meaning
'cream' :)

Mari Sarv

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.31 (09) [E/German/Russian]

Standard Dutch has <smeuïg> ["sm2:j at x] = creamy, said of butter, peanut-
butter etc., and of stories that are particularly juicy, "een smeuïg
verhaal". Of course Dutch is partly ingvaeonic as well, so we still can't
tell if there would have been forms that maintained a nasal originally.
*smanthig > *smôthig > smeuïg  is not so much different than
*sanft > *sâft > *zacht/soft. Btw some Noord-Brabant dialects have
soft = zacht as well!

Ingmar

>at a time when the nasal vowel was still intact.  (In Slavonic, still in
>Modern Polish and Kashubian, nasalized vowels call for denazalization and
>insertion of [n] before /t/ and other dentals; thus _smÄTt_ -> _sment_.)
>Vassmer assumes that nasalization in _smetana_ is the result of
>dissimilation.

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.31 (11) [E/German]

Spelling with final -d would be a prove for a Germanic heritage, from
*smanth or so, because in German and Low Saxon <th> as in *smanth is
always <d>.
English <think>, German/Low Saxon <denken>, English <weather>, German
<Wetter>, LS <wedder>, English <worthy>, German <würdig>, LS <woerdig>(?)

Ingmar

>From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.07.31 (08) [E/German]
>
>Jonny wrote:
>> Kurz und gut: erst nach einem  Gespräch mit einem sprachkundigen
Nachbarn
>> wurde klar: 'sämig' ist ein gebräuchliches, hochdeutsches Wort, und er
>fand
>> es online auf der Website von DUDEN. Und ebenso 'Schmand' mit 'd'!!!!!!!
>
>My Duden says "Schmant", too. Then why can't I buy any? The stores and
>bakeries only sell Schmand, nothing else. Google: Schmant - 854, and
>Schmand - 83,500 hits. Schmandkuchen (a specialty from Lower Saxony):
10,200
>hits; Schmantkuchen: 313 hits. Let Duden eat cake!!!
>
>Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

I'd like to add something that supports the 'Schmand/t' < 'smetana'
thesis (contribution from a reader at Duden's site):

Auszugsweise übersetzt aus 'Etymologicky Slovnik Jazyka Ceskeho'
(Etymologisches Wörterbuch der Tschechischen Sprache):
„smetana“ (mit einfachem 's' ohne Hatschek), polnisch „smietana“,
slowakisch „smotana“, obersorbisch „smjetana“, ukrainisch, russisch,
slowenisch, bulgarisch „smetana“. Urslawisch denasaliert aus dem älteren
„s-metana“ mit nasaliertem 'e'. (Das Alttschechische hatte Nasallaute
wie das Polnische, vgl. deutsch „Wenzel“ aus alttschechisch „Vaclav“ mit
nasaliertem ersten 'a'.) Es ist ein vorslawisches Partizip Perfekt
Passiv Feminin, verwandt mit dem Sanskrit-Wort „menth-".
Aus dem Slawischen, noch mit Nasallaut, wurde deutsch „Schmant" und
rumänisch „smantana“. Eine neuere Ableitung (ohne Nasal-'e') ist deutsch
„Schmetten“ und litauisch „smetona“.
Ureuropäisch iberisch „manteca“, rumänisch „mantica“, sogar dravidisch
„mantana“, Schafsfett. (Das 's' ist im Tschechischen meist Präfix und
gehört dann nicht zum Stamm.)

Vassmer's argument that Slavic words cannot spread that far doesn't cut
much ice. Western Brabantish has 'pjets' for a whip for example,

*Peitsche*
Substantiv Femininum std.Standardwortschatz (14. Jh.), spmhd. pitsche
Entlehnung. Aus den damals noch lebenden westslavischen Mundarten ins
Ostmitteldeutsche entlehnt. Vgl. obsorb. bič, vorauszusetzen ist akslav.
biči "Geißel" zu akslav. biti "schlagen".
Ebenso nschw. piska, nnorw. pisk.

Note that other words like 'Kantschu', 'Karbatsche' and 'Knute' have
Slavic origins too.

Problem sometimes is that two words sound the same, mean more or less
the same, but have different origins; in the case of 'pjets', we have
another word 'pjets' < 'perse' < 'perche', which is French for 'perch',
'rod' and of course a rod is a device that is also sometimes used when
guiding animals.
Maybe something like that has happened with 'Schmand/t' too. I remember
reading (in Grimm's I believe) that 'Schmand/t' could also mean
'Schlamm' (G) in certain German dialects, and there you have it: that
'Schmand/t' on the other hand may well be related to 'smooth'
(connotations of slippery ~ fat). Who knows? By now, I dare not make an
assumption anymore ;-) .

My initial hesitation to connect 'S(ch)mand/t' with 'Schmetten' was due
to the fact that these two areas are geographically disconnected (by at
least 100 km). Maybe, the 'Bavarian powerhouse' ;-) has expanded and
driven a 'Rahm'-wedge into their former unity?

Regarding the etymology of Spanish 'manteca' ('butter' (E)), I found this:

Se trata de una palabra extendida por toda la Península Ibérica
(gallego-portugués "manteiga", astur-leonés "mantega" y "manteiga",
catalán "mantega"). También se encuentra en otros lugares como Cerdeña,
Sicilia y sur de Italia, pero, en este caso, parece tratarse de un
préstamo del español. Originariamente, la palabra se aplicaba para
designar el producto obtenido por el batido de la crema de la leche de
la vaca, significado que todavía se conserva en catalán, en portugués y
también en algunos lugares como Argentina y Asturias; pero en la mayor
parte del dominio lingüístico castellano adquirió el significado de
‘gordura de los animales, especialmente la del cerdo’ y a la manteca de
la vaca se la designa con el diminutivo "mantequilla", documentado con
esta acepción desde el siglo XVI.

Se han propuesto varias explicaciones para el origen de esta palabra.
García Diego la hace venir del latín MANTICA ('bote','odre') pero esta
palabra latina es esdrújula, y resulta muy dificil aceptar que pueda
haber dado lugar a una palabra de acentuación llana. También se ha
propuesto el latín *MANUTIGICA, supuesto derivado de MANUTIGICUM ('acto
de tocar con la mano'), pero tiene el inconveniente de tratarse de una
palabra que se halla documentada una sola vez y, además traduce a una
palabra griega, por lo que parece tratarse simplemente de una invención
ocasional que dificilmente puede haber dado lugar al término hispánico.
Coromines sugiere la posibilidad de que esté relacionada con una raíz
indoeuropea MENTH- que habría dado palabras con acepciones relacionadas
con la nuestra en las lenguas eslavas e indoiranias.

Las primeras documentaciones de la palabra "manteca" proceden de
documentos mozárabes del siglo XII. La forma astur-leonesa "manteiga"
está documentada en el Fuero de Avilés (1155) y la propiamente
castellana "mantecca" en un documento toledano de 1181.

Anyway, 'Schmand' has now even been exported to the US in a certain way
:-) , as Pami (a Uto-Aztecan language of Arizona) has moulded Spanish
'manteca' (butter) into 'mánjeki', which is 'lard'.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Tere, Mari!  Great to hear from you again.  You wrote (above):

> In North Estonian dialects there is a well-known word "mant" meaning
> 'cream' :)

Interesting!  Don't you think it's a Low Saxon loan (one of a gezillion)? 
Deletion of initial /s/ before another consonant would be consistent with 
Finnic loan adaptation (at least in earlier times).  I can't find a Finnish 
cognate, which may be another indicator.  Apparently, Finnish uses either 
Russian-loaned _smetana_ (a recent loan give the initial consonant cluster) 
or native _vuolukerma_ (_kerma_ 'cream', another loan, assumedly a Swedish 
one, cf. Estonian _kreem_, beside _koor_ > _hapukoor_ 'sour cream').  Or do 
you think it's an ancient Slavonic loan?

About Estonian _koor_: it's a very interesting Low Saxon loan in that it has 
experienced a semantic shift.  In Low Saxon, _kaarn(e)_ (<Kaarn(e)> ~ 
<Koorn(e)>) ~ _karn(e)_ (<Karn(e)>) denotes 'butter churn' (English "churn" 
being related) and in extension 'butter vat'.  I assume it's related to 
words for 'mill', 'grinder', 'churn' e.g., Scots _kirn_ ~ kern_, Dutch 
_karn_, German (dial.) _Kirn_, Swedish _kvarn_ ~ _kärna_ (> Finnish 
_kirnu_), Danish _kværn_ ~ _kjærne_, Norwegian _kvern_, Icelandic _kvörn_, 
(Old English *_ci(e)rn_ >) _cyrin_.  So in Estonian the Germanic word for 
"churn" came to denote 'cream' and 'butter fat'.  Interesting among numerous 
derivations: _koorekann_ (< LS _kan_ <Kann> 'can') 'cream pitcher', 
'creamer', _koorepulber_ (< LS _pulver_?) 'powdered cream', '(coffee) 
creamer'.

Ingmar, you wrote above:

> Spelling with final -d would be a prove for a Germanic heritage, from
> *smanth or so, because in German and Low Saxon <th> as in *smanth is
> always <d>.

Whoa!  "Prove" looks like too strong a word here.  Words get respelled all 
the time, usually in the process of nativization, thus using native 
analogies.  In both German and Low Saxon _-and_ is way more common than 
_-ant_ in native words.  So, initial _s(ch)mant_ could have very well been 
changed to _s(ch)mand_.  Given the orthographic ambivalence we discussed, 
some sort of change must have been involved.

Luc, thanks for the extra information!  Well, I'm glad you've come to see 
the light.  ;-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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