LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.06 (11) [D/E/LS]

Sun Aug 7 01:39:12 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 06.AUG.2005 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.08.05 (06) [E/LS]

Ja, slim good emaakt Rein, en mit so'n aordige en ok junge stemme noch!;-)
Wüst ik ja niit eens...

Yes, very well done Ron,and with such a nice and also young voice still!;-)
I had no idea...

Btw it helps a lot to understand the AS orthography.
I think that if you hadn't been German but Dutch, you wouldn't have picked
"ey" and "ou" but "ee" and "oo" for these diphthongs, because in Dutch we
write <een> and <boom> and pronounce them like you'd do in Low Saxon.
I know that German based spelling uses ee and oo as well, even though
German it self has only long monophthongs.
How about Missingsch, does the Low Saxon accent give diphthongs pronounced
in German words like Brot or See?

Anyway, it was really fun to hear. Thanks

Ingmar

>From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Anniversary"
>
>Leeve Reinhard,
>
>grad'leer ouk tou Dien eegen Hamborger Biidrag opp de Annisite!
>Is allerbest mookt, mit 'n goude Stimmen, un toumol ruut tou kennen, wat
Du
>'n echten Willemsborger Jungen büsst.
>
>Kumpelment un' Greutens uut de Noberschopp
>
>Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Anniversary
>
>Besten dank, Jonny, ol' snuten-snakker.  Daar schoelt eyrstdaags meyr
>tou-kamen -- ja, ook Hamborgsch Missingsch, un sogaar Old-Sassisch un
>Middel-Ingelsch ...  So 'n digitaal-upnaam-dingsbums is elk pen weyrd, seg
>ik Jou (un sey wardt mit de wyl billiger).  Dey kan ik Jou an-raden.
>
>Thanks for the flattery about my first sound recording (Hamburg Low
Saxon),
>Jonny.  Other sound recordings are to follow -- yes, Hamburg Missingsch,
and
>even Old Saxon and Middle English ...  I can assure everyone that those
>digital sound recorder thingamabobs are worth every penny (and their
prices
>are going down).  I recommend them.
>
>For those of you who still don't know what we are talking about, here is
the
>address:
>http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/
>
>I'm waiting for further contributions, which includes personal
introductions
>(http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=members).
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar,

> Ja, slim good emaakt Rein, en mit so'n aordige en ok junge stemme noch!;-)
> Wüst ik ja niit eens...

Wees' bedankt ... gloyv' ik ...  Un ik kun dat mikrofoon daar tou sogaar 
noch alleyn holden, nich al tou tatterig!

> Yes, very well done Ron,and with such a nice and also young voice 
> still!;-)
> I had no idea...

Thanks ... I think ...  And I was even still able to hold the mike all by 
myself, without all that much shaking!

The AS spelling of that dialect and of other Lower Elbe and coastal dialects 
will have to be reconsidered.  For some reason (which may well be seen as 
deterioration), the old opposites /oo/ vs /ou/ and /ee/ vs /ei/ no longer 
apply, have leveled off to the dipthongs /ou/ and /ei/ respectively. 
However, distinction between /öö/ and /öü/ remains, probably because in 
these dialects /öü/ has come to be pronounced [o%I] (pretty buch as in "boy" 
drawn out a bit) thus distancing it from /öö/.  Note the same thing applying 
in the dialects of Jonny Meibohm and Clara Kramer-Freudenthal (both of whom 
have contributed sound recordings to go with their LS translations).  This 
and other features lead me to think that the Lower Elbe and coastal dialects 
are a very distinct group within the North Saxon dialect range.

> How about Missingsch, does the Low Saxon accent give diphthongs pronounced
> in German words like Brot or See?

Interesting question!  In my Missingsch at least they are monophthongs.  I'm 
not sure, but there may be Missingsch varieties with carried-over 
diphthongization.

By the way, in Hamburg alone there are, or at least used to be, numerous 
dialects of both Low Saxon (Low German) and Missingsch.  As I see it, of LS 
there are four main groups (2 being mine), most of which are diverse within:

   (1) Northern ("Hamborg/Hamburg proper")
   (2) Elbe Islands
   (3) Finkwarder/Finkenwerder
   (4) Veerlannen/Vierlande
   (5) Olland/Altes Land
   (6) Southern:
      (6.1) Elbe Marshes (Lower Harborg/Harburg)
      (6.2) Heathland ("Geest," Upper Harborg/Harburg)

There are considerable differences between (1) and the rest, and (1) alone 
is quite diverse.  Just crossing one of the bridges or taking the Elbe 
Tunnel from Wilhelmsburg to Inner Hamburg one notices marked differences, 
for instance /ou/ pronounced as [e%U], much like in many English dialects of 
Southeastern England, Australia and New Zealand.  While not quite as 
diverse, there are Missingsch versions that go with this.  There are Hamburg 
Missingsch versions that render /ar/ as [a:] (as in Australian English) and 
those that render it as [Q:] (as in "posh" English).  At least most of the 
time I say [a:], though most people in my childhood neighborhood say [Q:]. 
Why being conflicted?  My father was from south of the northern Elbe branch 
and said [Q:], while my mother was from north of it (Altona) and said [a:]. 
When I cross the southern Elbe branch going to Harburg (which did not belong 
to Hamburg until the mid-20th century) I don't notice too many unfamiliar 
features, but when I go up (and, yes, you can easily walk up) to it's higher 
elevations (Heimfeld and beyond) the sounds change markedly, even in German. 
This is where you have crossed the old Marshes-Heathland dividing line of 
Low Saxon (6.1 and 6.2), of which the latter represent the northern 
extension of the Heath dialects, i.e., of Lower Saxony's Lunenburg Heath, 
which in my opinion should not be counted as coastal.

However, these days such differences are fading away as people move about 
and education and the electronic media do their thing.

Felix, thank you so much for drawing our attention to the German of 
Wilamowice, Poland.  It is very interesting indeed, rather exciting.  I 
assume it was preserved because the speakers claimed to be "Dutch," for they 
would have been expelled had they considered themselves German.

I'd love to see more samples.  I hardly think we can even begin to decide 
its genealogy without larger samples, certainly as far as Old English and 
Scots are concerned.  The base it clearly Silesian German.  We need to look 
at other Silesian German dialects to be clear about this.  (My grandmother 
spoke a Lower Silesian dialect.)   That list needs, for than anything, 
cognates in Old German, Old Saxon, Old Franconian and Old English, also 
Scots, to get anywhere with it.

Incidentally, someone wrote, at least started to write, an equivalent 
article in Low Saxon (http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wymysojer).  It was full 
of really bad errors.  Though for certain reasons reluctantly, I corrected 
this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Felix,

Eerst eventjes iets dat me van het hart moet: Ik weet niet in welke taal
je ooit opgevoed bent, maar jouw Nederlands is gewoonweg schitterend!
Voor zover ik dit kan beoordelen natuurlijk ;-) . Als je echt een
geboren en getogen Keulenaar bent: hats off!

Wat de inwoners van Wilamowice betreft, refereer ik graag naar een
stukje dat ik hier een jaar of drie geleden over hen schreef onder de
titel "Flemish and Scottish weavers in Poland":

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0208A&L=lowlands-l&P=R2108

Je schreef ook:

> En een wiegelied met Engelse vertaling:
>
> "Śtöf duy buwła fest!
> Skumma frmdy gest,
> Skumma muma ana fettyn,
> Z’ brennia nysła ana epułn,
> Śtöf duy Jasiu fest!
>
> Sleep, my boy, soundly!
> Foreign guests are coming,
> Aunts and uncles are coming,
> Bringing nuts and apples,
> Sleep Johnny sound "

Die "nysła" doet mijn wenkbrauwen wel even fronsen : Zowel de "s"
(i.p.v. "t") als het diminutief "ła" lijken mij typisch Zuid-Duitse
wendingen. Verder lijken er op het eerste gezicht geen woorden te
bekennen die pertinent strijdig zouden zijn met een westerse afkomst.

Vriendelijke groeten,

Luc Hellinckx

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