LL-L "Orthography" 2005.08.10 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 10.AUG.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.08.10 (02) [E]

Ron wrote:
> > At the end of the day it doesn't really matter which writing system
> > (if any) comes out first, as long as it represents all phonemes of the
> > language (which the watered-down _Wald-und-Wiesen_ version of the
> > German-based system for Low Saxon does not do, and the continued use
> > of this version is definitely detrimental to the language).

But that is exactly the problem. The phonemes differ widely in various local
variations of Lower Saxon, and so I much prefer what you call the old
"Wald-und-Wiesen" system, because it gives you a choice of pronouncing it
any way you want to. With the pronunciation of vowels especially varying
even from one village to the next, who would want to wear the corset of
"accurately rendered" phonemes? This makes me highly suspicious; it feels
like a straightjacket to me, much more than a German-based spelling which
anyone can actually pronounce as they like and as they feel is correct. It
also seems that this would establish a predominance of coastal Platt,
neglecting - almost raping - all other varieties. And this AS spelling looks
awfully ugly and soulless to boot; it seems to drain the langauge of its
very essence - which, as Jonny pointed out, is spoken, not written.

I think it is definitely a case of carrying linguistics as an "applied
science" one step too far. I can just imagine someone trying to persuade my
Platt-speaking neighbours to adapt to this new and better spelling for their
very own home tongue - they're peaceful folks, but in this case they would
certainly bring out the pitchforks, just like they would have back in the
times of Wilhelm Busch. And more power to them.

There are plenty of living languages, by the way, which do not have, or
need, a standardised spelling for "all phonemes of the language". English,
for example. Good thing Shakespeare was just a poet, not a linguist.

Sorry, Ron, but our backgrounds are just too different here; we'll never see
eye to eye on this one, although we both seem to have the same love for the
same language. But what if it were the other way around - if you owned a dog
of a now almost extinct breed, and I, as a biologist, would try to drag it
off to a lab and perform all kinds of tests and surgical procedures on it in
order to "save the breed"? You'd tell me to keep my grubby paws off your
Fido, and quite rightfully so.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hi, Gabriele!

Try to evict this shadowy monster of forced uniformization from your mind. 
We're not talking about language standardization or a cross-dialect written 
standard here.  We are just talking about the issue of representing one 
given language variety in writing with a view at using the same system to 
represent related varieties -- *but each within its own contexts*; in other 
words, phonemics of one variety are not imposed on another one.  Thus, 
coastal varieties' standard would not be imposed on Eastphalian, for 
instance.  This is only in your mind.

However, aside from that, the phonemics (i.e., underlying sound structures) 
actually vary very little from dialect to dialect.  What does vary is the 
phonetics (i.e., phonological rules), the lexicon and the idiomatic 
inventory.

> I think it is definitely a case of carrying linguistics as an "applied
> science" one step too far. I can just imagine someone trying to persuade 
> my
> Platt-speaking neighbours to adapt to this new and better spelling for 
> their
> very own home tongue - they're peaceful folks, but in this case they would
> certainly bring out the pitchforks, just like they would have back in the
> times of Wilhelm Busch. And more power to them.

I see!  So is that how Johannes Saß died after he introduced a new 
interdialectical orthography about seventy years ago, the one whose 
watered-down version now in Germany represents the defended status quo?  As 
far as I am aware, Wilhelm Wisser (1843-1945), too, who introduced a more 
"radical" system even earlier, did not die a violent death, and his folktale 
collection (which contains the Wren story) is a classic, reprinted over and 
over with his orthography unchanged.  Or are these orthographies only 
acceptable because they belong to the past?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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