LL-L "Orthography" 2005.08.10 (05) [E/LS]

Wed Aug 10 19:36:48 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.08.10 (03) [E]

> over with his orthography unchanged.  Or are these orthographies only
> acceptable because they belong to the past?

To tell you the truth: I think it is because Lower Saxon speakers simply
don't give a hoot; when they do write down the language, they use whatever
spelling happens to be on hand. I do not think there is such a concept as a
"correct" spelling in Platt among those that actually use the language in a
non-academic sense.

Mind you, I did not imply that any well-meaning linguist has actually died
in any pitchfork accidents - yet. But one can never be too sure, just
remember the fate of St. Boniface.

By the way, the variety of Lower Saxon in the Solling area is quite
different from what is spoken in Hameln, for instance; it shows much less
Eastphalian influence and is much closer to your "regulation" Lower Saxon
than what they speak further up the Weser. Historically, the area has always
had close connections to Hannover in many respects.

I hope to get hold of some written examples at some point in the near
future, but the book I am thinking of is currenty out of print.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.08.10 (03) [E]

Leyve Gabriele,

miin lytt Bollerkopp! Ne weller dyll waar'n!

Du hesst door watt kompleet in dennen verkeyrt'n Hals kreygen. Mi geyt dat
alleyn doorüm, MIIN Dialekt opp sou'n Oort tou schrieven, wat nookoymstig'
Lüüd oungefeyr weyt, woans ick snackt hevv, woans uns Sprook in uns Tiid
klungen hett. Door is mi meist jeydeyn Mittel recht foyr.
Un- door bi soyk ick amend ne no eyn allmeyn-gyllich't Schrievsysteym foyr
al de Lüüd, de jichenswo inne Welt mol meyr, mol minner wat mit 'Platt' tou
doun hannen- doorfoyr hevvt wi joo dennen Saß'schen Kroom, un mittünner houl
ick mi door jo ouk an.
Denn schriev ick ne in mien Munnoort, dat geiht ne.

'n Biispeel: 'Ledder' (E: leather), 'Ledder' (E: 'ladder') un 'Lebber' (E:
'liver') heyt bi uns (oongefeyr!) 'Lea', 'Leller', 'Lewwer'- man- mitünner
weyt ick sylvst ne genau, wat door opp Stynns meynt is. De Konsonanten /dd/
un /bb/ waard tohoup 'open' und 'weyk' uutsproken, waard an dennen Innen al
meyr or minner tou dat Ingelsche /w/ as in  E: 'wasp' ('wQsp'). (Kiek inns
:-)!)
Door koomst mit de 'Germoon'sche Schriivwies' ne kloor, un ick kiek eynfach
mol uut no anner' Moyglichkeyten.

Beste Gabriele- bruukst amend ne opp Reynhard or mi tou schell'n; ick soyk
alleyn no eyn gangboor'n Wech foyr mien eygen Dialect; un wat dat nu mool
'Küstenplatt' is, door kann 'ck ouk nix foyr! Ick dey woll geyrn wat meyr
von Diin Munnoort hoyr'n, un mit Dien Lüdd dey ick woll ouk bi de Saß'sche
Schrievwiis blieven.

Allerbest' un' frynnschapplich' Greutens

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.08.10 (03) [E]

Gabriele, I have to agree with Ron on this.
The AS (algemene schryvwyse) is an ORTHOGRAPHY standard, not a
PRONUNCIATION or DIALECTICAL standard.
I can write poems in my Dutch Drentish Low Saxon dialect in it,
and in my Achterhoek Low Saxon, and Ron in his Hamburg Buttje-talk, and
your neighbour could in her Sollingen variety...

You said Low Saxon is a spoken, not a written language in essence, but
that will turn it into a DEAD language pretty soon, I'm afraid.
And AS is an orthographic system especially designed for Low Saxon.
Don't forget LS is not only a language of Germany, but also of the
Netherlands, and of several other countries as well. So using just German-
based or Dutch-based spellings won't underline its unity but its
fragmentation... And, those *foreign* orthograhies just ain't fit for LS,
they are designed for different languages, for German and Dutch.

About esthaetics: I know you hate all those <oy>'s and <ey>'s of AS.
Probably because your Phalian Low Saxon doesn't have those diphthongs, or
for some other reasons. I must admit, I'm not fond of them too, but my LS
dialect(s) has monophthongs like [e:] [o:] and [2:] rather than [ei], [ou]
and [2y], so I write <ee>, <oo>, <oe> instead of <ey> <ou> <oy>, but
that's still AS.

Just take a look at the poems I sent in yesterday (under 'language
varieties' - R. forgot to change the subject into 'Literature', I hope)
which are not even near to 'coastal Plat', but still written in the
Algemene Schryvwyse

Gabi, hold vast!
Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Orthography
>
>Hi, Gabriele!
>
>Try to evict this shadowy monster of forced uniformization from your mind.
>We're not talking about language standardization or a cross-dialect
written
>standard here.  We are just talking about the issue of representing one
>given language variety in writing with a view at using the same system to
>represent related varieties -- *but each within its own contexts*; in
other
>words, phonemics of one variety are not imposed on another one.  Thus,
>coastal varieties' standard would not be imposed on Eastphalian, for
>instance.  This is only in your mind.
>
>However, aside from that, the phonemics (i.e., underlying sound
structures)
>actually vary very little from dialect to dialect.  What does vary is the
>phonetics (i.e., phonological rules), the lexicon and the idiomatic
>inventory.
>
>> I think it is definitely a case of carrying linguistics as an "applied
>> science" one step too far. I can just imagine someone trying to persuade
>> my
>> Platt-speaking neighbours to adapt to this new and better spelling for
>> their
>> very own home tongue - they're peaceful folks, but in this case they
would
>> certainly bring out the pitchforks, just like they would have back in
the
>> times of Wilhelm Busch. And more power to them.
>
>I see!  So is that how Johannes SaÃY died after he introduced a new
>interdialectical orthography about seventy years ago, the one whose
>watered-down version now in Germany represents the defended status quo?
As
>far as I am aware, Wilhelm Wisser (1843-1945), too, who introduced a more
>"radical" system even earlier, did not die a violent death, and his
folktale
>collection (which contains the Wren story) is a classic, reprinted over
and
>over with his orthography unchanged.  Or are these orthographies only
>acceptable because they belong to the past?
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
>From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.08.10 (02) [E]
>
>Ron wrote:
>> > At the end of the day it doesn't really matter which writing system
>> > (if any) comes out first, as long as it represents all phonemes of the
>> > language (which the watered-down _Wald-und-Wiesen_ version of the
>> > German-based system for Low Saxon does not do, and the continued use
>> > of this version is definitely detrimental to the language).
>
>But that is exactly the problem. The phonemes differ widely in various
local
>variations of Lower Saxon, and so I much prefer what you call the old
>"Wald-und-Wiesen" system, because it gives you a choice of pronouncing it
>any way you want to. With the pronunciation of vowels especially varying
>even from one village to the next, who would want to wear the corset of
>"accurately rendered" phonemes? This makes me highly suspicious; it feels
>like a straightjacket to me, much more than a German-based spelling which
>anyone can actually pronounce as they like and as they feel is correct. It
>also seems that this would establish a predominance of coastal Platt,
>neglecting - almost raping - all other varieties. And this AS spelling
looks
>awfully ugly and soulless to boot; it seems to drain the langauge of its
>very essence - which, as Jonny pointed out, is spoken, not written.
>
>I think it is definitely a case of carrying linguistics as an "applied
>science" one step too far. I can just imagine someone trying to persuade
my
>Platt-speaking neighbours to adapt to this new and better spelling for
their
>very own home tongue - they're peaceful folks, but in this case they would
>certainly bring out the pitchforks, just like they would have back in the
>times of Wilhelm Busch. And more power to them.
>
>There are plenty of living languages, by the way, which do not have, or
>need, a standardised spelling for "all phonemes of the language". English,
>for example. Good thing Shakespeare was just a poet, not a linguist.
>
>Sorry, Ron, but our backgrounds are just too different here; we'll never
see
>eye to eye on this one, although we both seem to have the same love for
the
>same language. But what if it were the other way around - if you owned a
dog
>of a now almost extinct breed, and I, as a biologist, would try to drag it
>off to a lab and perform all kinds of tests and surgical procedures on it
in
>order to "save the breed"? You'd tell me to keep my grubby paws off your
>Fido, and quite rightfully so.
>
>Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Folks,

As far as I am concerned, this is not about AS.  At the end of the day I 
don't really give a rat's behind if the system is based on German, Dutch, 
Meroitic, Egyptian hieroglyphics, Elvish squiggles or apian choreography ... 
whatever floats the majority's esthetic and emotional boats.  What I mostly 
care about is, language-wide, a modicum of cohesion and consistency that 
facilitate not only the writing of individual varieties but also the reading 
of other folks' varieties, where cross-dialect reading comprehension would 
be no more difficult than cross-dialect listening comprehension.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***
"To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."
          Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)

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