LL-L "Orthography" 2005.08.12 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 12.AUG.2005 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.08.12 (01) [E]


Apart from spelling problems of the same kind, which I'm not going to write 
a post about here and now, one little (offtopic) opinion:

>I, for myself, have always wondered if my Brabantish would be
>understood by a late medieval Brabantish person (and vice versa).
>Frankly, I think it wouldn't pose any problem. The very slow
>evolution of dialects here shows that a linguistic change which has
>not been triggered/borne by a significant economic/cultural/social
>modification of society, is doomed to be of interest only for
>literati. Again, I love the literary world just as much as I love
>every other social niche, but too often it seems that very few
>people are actually keen to grasp and accept the differing, specific
>linguistic needs that some of their fellow men may have.

Antwerp dialect is said to be almost alike to the language that's being 
recorded from "kluchten" in the 16th century, and when I read "De Spaansche 
Brabander" indeed I recognise alot. The sounds probably are more or less 
exactly the same. The only thing that's changed seems to be the vocabulary, 
but I don't know how much of this is due to Standard Dutch (especially the 
last 50 [??] years).
As well I can read and understand your Wren-tale very well, so I guess if 
I'd exercise my spoken Antw. a bit more, and we 2 and 2 medieval Brabanders 
were put in a room, we'd be chitchatting very quickly ;)

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/bred001spaa01/bred001spaa01_027.htm

AFAIK it's written by a Hollander so it's not always accurate (Konincxkens?? 
where's that umlaut?; met haar -> mè eur?) and maybe even caricatural... and 
I doubt the -n was still pronounced by then but it's written anyway (written 
language influence probably). The only "bigger" change that seems not to 
have happened yet seems to be the contraction of long vowels in closed 
syllables, at least I don't see any of it in the text (sayn, nowadays: zen 
[zIn]). But again, this is written by a Hollander (I think), who might just 
have changed all ij's into ay's without knowing the situation 100%. au/ou is 
still spelled like that (today more like aa; naa = nou, aa = ou = u).
There are more noteworthy points but that would lead me to ofar astray now.
Greetz
Diederik Masure

----------

From: jpkrause <jpkrause at sunflower.com>
Subject: Orthography

Ron,
      Your remarks about isolation are indeed more true than you think.
Although there is some academic interest at the University of Kansas in
LS/Platt no one there can speak it.  Indeed, I exchanged emails with one
scholar, and I, self-taught as I am, wrote it better than he.  If you
can imagine that!  My personal bias on the subject of orthography is
against German based spelling.  And because I am an equal opportunity
discriminator, the same goes for Dutch based spelling.

I think you'd fall off your chair laughing were you to receive an audio
tape of me reading the poem De Varjoarschnacht as though it were written
in German, and reading from the German based spelling.  I did take two
semesters of German in college.  It was useful at the time.
Conversely, I think you'd take no notice if I read the same poem using
what I remember of the way the old folks spoke Plautdietsch.  Such is
the power of the printed page to influence spoken language, especially
in isolation.

Jim Krause

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================