LL-L "Language use" 2005.08.17 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 17.AUG.2005 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Migration" 2005.08.16 (06) [E]


Dear all,

In relation to our discussion on Aussiedler, the following is an excellent 
introduction in English to the matter, and less interested in the legal 
aspects than the previous link I posted.

ftp://repec.iza.org/RePEc/Discussionpaper/dp50.pdf

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Criostóir.

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Migration


Foreigners here are also being taught the standard language when they want 
to integrate. The sad thing is that they can't use it in "real" situations 
;) I have heard someone say (as a nasty comment from a (probably) 
dialect-hater) that people should stop talking dialect (to immigrants) 
because they have done so much efforts to learn Standard Dutch and then they 
don't understand a word of what you say...
This is of course not the fault of the immigrants, as they are probably 
thinking the naive idea that they are being taught the language of the place 
they move to; but my routeplanner just taught me that it's the language of a 
place 130 kilometers away. So wouldn't it be a bit more useful if they also 
learned something from the local language? (for their own good)
Knowing standard language will of course be useful for registration 
documents, etc etc, all official papers, but you can't talk with your 
neighbour in it or make friends (ok that's maybe a bit extremely radically 
posed :D).
This post is just one big rhaetorical question, as the opinions of our 
members are in general quite well known so I have a clue what people think, 
but I felt I had to post this anyway as it pisses me a bit off.

Diederik Masure

P.S. Didi for pr3s1d3nt!

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Nurture


Ingmar, your post about Arvid a while ago made me wonder... what language 
you are raising him in, and for what reasons?
The few words you posted made me think of Standard Hollandic but I wasn't 
very sure.
This is off course also an invitation to other people to tell about the 
language they talk with their children ;) and opinions on that etc. Sorry if 
I'm repeating a subject that has already been thoroughly discussed before, 
but I cannot remember having seen it yet in my still short time on here.

Diederik Masure

P.S. sorry Ingmar for lame mailings to you but when I'm testing out some new 
spelling or writing in strange dialects etc. I'm sometimes so focused on 
consequent spelling and on writing in weird languages that I forget to add 
contents of interest ;) I'm being modern anyway, today it seems to be more 
important that it looks nice than if you got something to say ;)

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Working stuff/dialect survival


Since friday I have a job at Totalfina (the petrol company), and from the 
first moment I was shocked how "flat" (Dutch. "plat" in the sence of dialect 
;)) everyone spoke there!
So I realised the dialect here might not be as dead as they want to make us 
believe (maybe they think, if they tell us dialect will die out anyway in 
one generation , that we'll abandon it in big masses *lol*).
It's not always very "sauber" Antwerpian and some people have (logically) 
more standard influences than others, but it seems to be that standard Dutch 
is the exception.
All prejudices seem to be (partly) wrong in this case! In the chemical lab I 
met a young girl, half-way her 20's or so, as she's working in the lab I 
suppose she's well educated... And she speaks dialect! (well at least a lot 
closer to dialect than I) [OOC - And she's pretty too ;) ;) ]
Let's sum things up. Young. Girl. Educated... Dialect??? (They always want 
to make us believe that speaking dialect is only something for marginal, 
uneducated, ugly, male, elderly stinkers...)
So although I hate the job it gives me good hope :D I just discovered 
there's nothing sexier than a pretty dialect-speaking girl ;) ;)
Which is a covered-up call to all girls to speak dialect, of course ;) 
*rolls eyes* 8)

P.S. it seems to be socially unaccepted to speak anything but as dialectish 
as you can. Even some East-Flemish people, probably from just over the 
river, they speak very dialect but sometimes even seem to do their best to 
sound Antwerpian.
So in "arbeidersmilieus" (English?) it seems still to be exactly the inverse 
situation of the "milieus" I am usually in.
Very good that we have the harbor here! But sad on the other hand that such 
seem not to be found in more dialect-decreasing areas. Maybe the typical 
"dikkenek" and chauvinism also play a role of course.
P.S. 2 don't really know what I meant to say with this post but 8)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Migration

I have been told that quite a few non-Netherlands immigrants to Fryslân have 
been studying Westerlauwer Frisian, and I wonder if this is because, by and 
large, Frisians of that region are relatively confident about their 
language, consider it the first language of their province and use it 
unapologetically, not just within their homes.  My point is that the 
attitudes of the native speakers are likely to make a big difference in 
quite a few regards.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:
Diederik (above):
> P.S. Didi for pr3s1d3nt!
I wholeheartedly second that, won't even ask the obvious question: 
"Presendent of what?"  Why?  I'm sick and tired of all the Big Brother stuff 
and would welcome the Era of Little Brother (弟弟 dìdi), which shall be known 
by the Mandarin name 弟弟代 Dìdidài, sounding a bit like "deedy-die" (rhyming 
with "seedy guy" and "beady eye") --  most excellent for election slogans.

P.P.S.:
> ugly, male, elderly stinkers...
Is that the same as "old farts"?  I take it present company is excluded.

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