LL-L "Language use" 2005.08.29 (03) [E/LS]

Mon Aug 29 14:51:21 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "jonny" <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.08.27 (02) [E]

Dag, Reinhard, CrÃostÃ³ir,

> However, note that even our Jonny has resorted to writing more
> English, and he used to be a main proponent of more linguistic diversity.

(English summary below)

Dat liggt ouk an myn Fuulheyt, wat ick mennigmol alleyn op Ingelsch schryven
dou.

Jyst sou as by Hein un Fietje.
Sey leygen beyd' in'n Gras, de Synn schyn fein von 'n Heben, un sey foyl'n
sick heel commoud.
Sey dÃ¶Ã¶sen sou vÃ¶Ã¶r sick her, door sey Hein op mol: "Kiek, 'n Orm!" "Wat
hesst Du seggt?" froyg Fietje. Hein: "'n Orm krupt dor dÃ¶Ã¶r dat Gras;
sÃ¼sst'
em ne?" Fietje; "Nee- ick kenn keyn 'Orm'! Wat schall dat ween?" "Och- Du
DÃ¶Ã¶sbaddel, weit'st ne, wat 'n Worm is?" "Kloor kenn 'ck 'n Worm- wosou
seggt Du SnaarbÃ¼del dor 'Orm' tou?"
Hein: "Byn tou fuul!"
.......

It's sometimes because of me being lazy.

The same with Hein and Fietje (famous Hamburger characters).
They lay dozin in the grass, the sun shining nice, and they felt well.

Suddenly Hein said: "Look- an orm!" "What did you say?" Fietje asked. Hein:
"Any orm creeping through the grass; can't you see it?" Fietje: "No- don't
know any 'orm'. What the hell do you mean?" "Hey, you stupid fool don't know
a worm?" "Of course know a worm- why did you smarty say 'orm'?"
Hein: "Being just too lazy!"

(The original version I was told by my granny in his Eastern (-Prussia) Low
Saxon dialect, long, long years ago.)

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.08.27 (02) [E]

Hello All
I have been following this thread with some interest. While I can somewhat
agree
with the general position of most of the replies, I do not hold to the
viewpoint
that the spread of English of whichever variety is a terrible encroachment
on the
standing of other languages. Rather, if I can run with Ron's thoughts
about reaching
those on the list who have difficulty in understanding LS, I believe that
English as
lingua terra is the  way to preserve those languages that have gotten
short shrift
in their native environs. Though certainly not the case concerning the
experiences
of the Celtic languages in the (then) British Isles, nor of the Amerinds
of North
America, it has been a boon to those other languages that have been
oppressed (if
you will) by languages within the same linguistic family tree, or totally
foreign.
There are now groups much like LS dealing with Sorbian, Provence,
Corsican, or in my
direct experience Carpatho-Rusyn who never dream of using the official
politi!
cal
 language of the whichever nation to get their points across, they use
English as a
means to distance themselves while producing material in their own
languages. Has
there not been discussion here about the effect that German and Dutch
generally and
orthographically have had on both the present and future of LS languages?
I admit that my knowledge and usage of LS is scant.  While my abilities in
both
Luxemburgish and German have improved, I find that I still have many
difficulties
with LS in both general vocabulary and and the semantic meaning behind
phrases. So I
have been afraid  even  try to reply in LS. With the more involved
questions of
grammar or linguistics, I am afraid that I would be total up the creek if
it where
not for English being used here on the list.  I have in the past relied on
both the
posts in original LS and the English translations to get those  meanings
or as close
to the meaning as possible, and while I can understand Ron's position on
how labor
intensive it is to produce, I do wish that there were more dual posting.
Criostir wrote;
   "I don't see the growth of English as a world language as a good thing
in
terms of
travel. The old days of having to learn useful phrases of a country's
language
before traveling there are long gone, robbing the youngest generation
of
English
speakers of any respect for or interest in other languages (and, by
extension,
cultures), "because everyone speaks English anyway". With this comes an
ugly lack of
respect for which native English speakers (whether English, Scottish,
Australian,
American or even Irish) have become notorious - the old "I'll say it
louder in
English" syndrome. I've had to fight to speak Dutch in Belgium and the
Netherlands
because as an English speaker it was presumed I would never want to
speak
in any
other language. It's depressing."
I can tell you emphatically that this has not been my experience.
Certainly in the
larger cities of say Luxembourgville or Trier there are many who have some
skill at
English, the vast majority do not. I have had to fall on in the beginning
half
remembered phrases of whatever Luxembourgish I was learning, or the so
rusty it was
useless German that I studied years before. But whatever poor attempts
that I did
make, people opened up considerably and where touched that I tried to
communicate in
their language. For those that understood English, they spoke it with me
thinking
only that it would be easier for me to understand. When I kept attempting
to speak
in their language  they went with the flow but did try to speak simply. On
the topic
of respect or lack there of, I agree that learning or attempting to learn
another
language opens you up to the thought processes behind a different culture,
but not
speaking that language does not go in hand in hand with a lack of respect
for!
 that
 culture. Actually it seems that the Americans, British, Irish, Canadians
(should I
have used English  speaking vacationers?) that I have met here on holiday
were much
more interested in the history and culture than their French or Dutch
counterparts.
These people on those tours that I was somehow tackled into attending
asked far
more questions than the other groups or did not have an agenda like one
French
national who stated flatly that Luxembourg should be either a part of the
French or
Belgian nations.
>>From the time that I spent as a teacher, I have found that languages and
the other
arts should not be electives but should be part of the core curriculum
when it
comes to secondary school. You need the exposure of a different language
in order
to achieve a different way of thinking and logic - but I suppose I am
preaching to
the choir here on the list on that subject.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if English was not the unifying
thread
between the different LS varieties, the list would be extremely difficult
for me to
both use and enjoy.
Just some thoughts,
Larry

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.08.27 (02) [E]

>>From CrÃostÃ³ir:
"I've always wondered if speakers of Samoan English in (Western) Samoa
inclined more
to New Zealand forms and speech, and speakers of Samoan English in
American Samoa
inclined more to US forms and accent. Anyone on the list have any
experience in Samoa?"

Further to Ron's comments, I was in Papua New Guinea during the 1980 South
Pacific
Festival of Arts, when people from all over the Ocean came to perform.  I
got to
meet some of the performers socially, and one thing that struck me was a very
dismissive attitude of American Samoans to their Western cousins,
including the
comment "they can't even speak English properly".  The American Samoans had
Americanised accents that reminded me a bit of Hawaiians, and also of various
Micronesians (who were also there).

Paul

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L Language Use

Hi Ron and all

Ron you made the comments:

"As for myself, there are times
in
which I feel I must use English to reach all
subscribers on List
matters.
Wearing my private hat, I like to use Low Saxon
(sometimes also
dabbling
in Dutch, Afrikaans, Scots, Frisian, or whatever).  I
would do so more
often.  However, especially in using LS I often have
my doubts as to
how
many people actually understand me.  I guess this
doubt is due to
meager
response.  Oftentimes, postings in LS get no response,
or the response
is
"I don't understand. Could someone translate?"  "

I think there are a large number of people on the list
who do try to read through the LS mails (and those in
other languages). I find that if I don't have time I
skip over mails in other languages - but this is
mainly only the case if I've been on holiday for a
couple of weeks and come back to find 100 postings to
read through. (Or moving flat, which I've just done,
and not having read my mails for about a month and
being a member of a couple of lists meant that I've
just finished ploughing my way through 350 mails...)

One reason perhaps for the low feedback after LS
mailings is that LS tends to be written when there's a
query about a LS-specific subject. These questions are
usually very interesting, but, as a non-LS speaker,
there's very little I or many others can contribute.

Also I think if I see a mail in LS it merits an answer
in LS. I could do this with heavy use of a dictionary,
but the result would probably sound like a direct
translation from German and would be reliant on the
dictionary's spelling system - both of which have
however often been spurned on the list. (The same
would apply to writing in Scots for example).

I love reading the different varieties and I'm
guessing this is one of the reasons why most people
are on this list in the first place. Yeah it does make
life easier if everything's in English, but it's also
not as much fun...

Gary

http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html

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From: "Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong" <Dutchmatters at comcast.net
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2005.08.27 (02) [E]

Re the use of English as a Lingua Franca;
Ingmar says : "Isn't Euro-English defacto the languague of this forum.
Ron says: "I like to use Low Saxon (sometimes also dabbling
in Dutch, Afrikaans, Scots, Frisian, or whatever).  I would do so more
often.  However, especially in using LS I often have my doubts as to how
many people actually understand me.  I guess this doubt is due to meager
response.  Oftentimes, postings in LS get no response, or the response is
"I don't understand".

Isn't this the result of this forum that "op twee benen hinkt" (plays
hopscotch on two legs at a time). On the one hand you want to interest non-
LS speaking people in the existence of a large European sub-group that uses
the "old" vernacular and who find this language more fitting in explaining
who they are. On the other hand you want to give to the people in the group
the opportunity to share with each other the similarities and
dis-similarities of their dialects, while at the same time giving them the
opportunity to "go to church together"?
We are not living any longer in a village which has developed its own
idiosyncratic language, only spoken by the inhabitants. In order to survive
we need a lingua franca. Low Saxon dialects have not formed a universal
"Mischings", but English fills the bill.
(Writing this I am again painfully aware, how much easier English would be
if they would only use Dutch idioms!!!!) and so it goes! Jacqueline

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