LL-L "Semantics" 2005.12.07 (06) [E]

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07 December 2005 * Volume 06
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From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2005.12.07 (02) [E]

Paul Tatum wrote:

> Hello all,
>  I've been reading a bit about dutch, and the book was talking about
> nouns which have two plurals. It says that vaders and vaderen mean
> different things (fathers/forebears), but that there is "only a
> stylistic difference between maten/maats 'fellows', benden/bendes
> 'gangs', lelien/lelies 'lilies', appelen/appels 'apples'". Could anyone
> decribe what the differences are between these pairs?

maten/maats - I first thought I'd have never heard 'maats' before, when
               I realized it may be 'maats' in some compound words such
               as bootsmaat and koksmaat, where 'maat' has the connotation
               of apprentice/help, whereas 'maat' by itself means 'friend,
               'comrade'
benden/bendes - I don't think I have never heard 'benden' before
lelien/lelies - 'lelien' is archaic/biblical ('de lelien des velds')
appelen/appels - 'appelen' sounds archaic, but 'aardappelen' much less so.

Hope this helps,

Gustaaf

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2005.12.07 (02) [E]

Paul Tatum writes:
<I've been reading a bit about dutch, and the book was talking about
<nouns which have two plurals. It says that vaders and vaderen mean
<different things (fathers/forebears), but that there is "only a
<stylistic difference between maten/maats 'fellows', benden/bendes
<'gangs', lelien/lelies 'lilies', appelen/appels 'apples'". Could anyone
<decribe what the differences are between these pairs?

Hi Paul, I think there are several mechanisms at work here.

One of them is to find a way to distinguish the highfaluting from the
mundane. That would be your example as vaders/vaderen where the vaderen are
the ones wearing the high hats and the watch fobs and vaders change diapers.
Other examples are volken/volkeren (people belonging to a country or a
group) Here the geography professor publishes an "Atlas van de Volkeren der
Aarde" ( note also the use of the old genitivum ) and Joe Blow talks about
de volken. "Cultured" people speak about musea and the guy on the bus speaks
about museums. We even use separate words (usually one derived from Latin
and the other with Germanic roots to differentiate between two sets of
people, one of which implies more "class" than the other. Like the "musici
van het concertgebouworkest" and the "muzikanten van de hoempaband".
The difference between aardappelen and aardappels 'potatoes', "Handelaar in
aardappelen en fruit" sounds more important than "twee kilo aardappels
als'tublieft" The difference between lelien and lelies is that the phrase
"lelien des velds" occurs in a poem and you go to the market to buy "een bos
lelies" (There is also the trouble with the spelling of lelien wit or
without a trema)
Although the difference between dochteren en dochters is one of style; the
tonier dochteren is rarely used, the difference between zonen en zoons is
much less and both forms are still in use. "Hij heeft twee zoons" is a
matter of fact statement, but "mijn twee grote zonen hebben did voor me
gedaan" implies that you are grateful.

The other differences are because a word can have two meanings.
One example is the difference between maat/maten pertaining to size and
content and maat/maats as in sailor, compagnon, friend, mates. (Although I
have also heard "maten" for people in a group of intimate male friends)
De bende/benden (pertaining to an entire group, as in militia or guild, I
would guess this is somewhat archaic. In the more modern usage it is usually
used for a group of robbers and the like, and bende/bendes is used for them.
De bende can also mean 'mess' (My mother entering my room said "Wat een
bende!"), and 'a whole lot of', as in "Hij heeft bendes speelgoed"

There are a couple of nouns that have more than one meaning in the singular,
but then their plurals are different.
Het been/benen = the leg of a human being or a horse, all other animals and
tables and the likes have "poten from de poot/poten".
Het been/beenderen = bone as in graveyards and glue-factories
Also, het blad/bladeren is only used for the leaves of vegetation, whereas
het blad/bladen is used for flat surfaces like a tray and a newspaper a
sheet of paper etc. etc.

I hope this sets you straight on the torturous route towards learning Dutch.
Succes ermee! Jacqueline 

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