LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (10) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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16 December 2005 * Volume 10
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From: Isaac M. Davis <isaacmacdonalddavis at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (09) [E]


I wrote:

> Well, I'm not British or Irish, but I have heard that from at least one
> Irish person. The one I'm sure of is a woman, but I heard what I thought 
> was
> the same thing from one man as well (only met him once, thus the
> uncertainty, where I've met the woman numerous times).

By the way, I should note that both of the people in question are fluent 
(and one is definitely native, the other very likely native) speakers of 
Irish. In case this has some impact on things.

Isaac M. Davis

--

Westron wynd, when wilt thou blow
The smalle rain down can rain
Christ yf my love were in my arms
And I yn my bed again

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (09) [E]

Stan schreev:
>
> i've also been pretty interested in the "v" vs. "f"
> pronunciation of "v" in Dutch.  <snip/>
> I wonder if there is any regional variation in
> preference that some of the native speakers can point
> out to us.
 >
I believe that in the west they pronounce v as f, both unvoiced, whereas
in the east the v is voiced. This is rather black-and-white though.

Ingmar schreev:
 >
> It's obvious that you were in Amsterdam, because it's true that Dutch
> <v> is pronounced [f] there, and <ij> something like [a:] or [ai],
> hence <vijf> = [faif] instead of Standard Dutch [v\Eif].
 >
My girlfriend (36yo) is a native Amsterdammer, but she never pronounces
<ij> as [a:] or [ai], rather as [e:].

> But also notice that Standard Dutch <v> is NOT the same as English <v>,
> but something between [v] and [f], for which I use the phonotic symbol 
> [v\]
> English <v> is more like Dutch <w>.
>
Note that in (X-)Sampa the symbol v\ is used to denote the sound of the
Dutch w.

regards,
Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Moyen, Henry!

> I believe that in the west they pronounce v as f, both unvoiced, whereas
> in the east the v is voiced. This is rather black-and-white though.

I noticed the pronunciation [v] for <v> also in the speech of many Belgians, 
especially in Western Flanders.

Isn't this the original pronunciation?

/f/ -> [f]
/v/ -> [v] ~> [f]
/w/ -> [v\]

???

Low Saxon of Germany:

/f/ -> [f] <f> ~ <v->
/v/ -> [v] <w> ~ <-v-> ~ <-f>

There is no /w/.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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