LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.20 (03) [E]

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20 December 2005 * Volume 03
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.20 (02) [E]

Mmmh, I'd say that it's nothing more  a phonetic rule that [v] before [t]
becomes [f]. You don't haf to do anything for it, it just happens
automatically. Just as <s> won't be pronounced as [z] before voiceless
consonants: in "it is terrible", normal pronunciation of <is> [Iz],
becomes [Is]. In normal speech no one would say haV to or iZ terrible.
But I expected that to be common knowledge here...

Ingmar

>From: Yasuji Waki yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp
>Subject: "Grammar"
>
>When I learned English at high school( of course in Japan), I was taught:
>
>"have" should be read as "haff" in such usage: I have to go to school. Of
>course, "have" to be read as "hav" in case that it means " to possess".
>
>I am not sure, if what I have learned is correct.
>
>Regards,
>Yasuji Waki
>
>> From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
>> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.17 (02) [E]
>>
>> Steven,
>>
>> Even though I've lived in California for
>> 88% of my life, I'm actually from Iowa.  Perhaps "haff" is more of a
>> Midwestern feature.
>>
>> You know, I don't believe that I have ever heard anyone say, "I hav to
go"
>> with a /v/ in "have." I think that it is more universal than just the
>> midwest, as I live in Arizona and have heard this from people in many
>> places.
>> Ben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Hi, Ingmar!

Earlier in the discussion, I had proposed the assimilation theory too, but I 
was told that, in certain dialects at least, "have" in the sense of 
"possess" *always* ends with [z] (i.e., also before voiceless consonants) 
while in the sense of "must" before "to" it ends with [s].  This may 
indicate the existence of separate lexemes (hence the controversy about 
"could of" for "could have," which could be a similar case), or it might 
indicate some sort of more complex morphophonological process (possibly 
removal of the word boundary between "have" and "to": ##have#to## -> [hævtə] 
 > ##have$to## -> ["hæftə]).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.20 (02) [E]

From: Yasuji Waki yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp
Subject: "Grammar"

When I learned English at high school( of course in Japan), I was taught:

"have" should be read as "haff" in such usage: I have to go to school. Of
course, "have" to be read as "hav" in case that it means " to possess".

I am not sure, if what I have learned is correct.

Regards,
Yasuji Waki

I don't say that, though I hear some people say it.  Nobody would notice, or 
think you wrong if you didn't.  Likewise, a lot of English people pronounce 
"had" as "hat" in sentences like "I had to leave early yesterday".  Again, I 
don't.

A lot of pronunciation has little effect on understanding; for example many 
Europeans have problems with both voiced and unvoiced  "th" sound in "the, 
think, w! ith" etc.  So do some English people, but "wiss" or "wizz" from 
many French and Germans, or "wit","wid" and "wiv" from different speakers in 
the British Isles are all perfectly understandable.

Paul

----------

From: Philip Ernest Barber <pbarber at loc.gov>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.20 (02) [E]

For my part, I am sure Yasuji is right. I have noticed, however, in my own 
usage as a native speaker that if much emphasis is placed on "have" in the 
sense of "must," then it is usually pronounced with the voiced consonant. 
Ex.: "Excuse me, but I really HAVE to go now!."  Otherwise, one would say "I 
haff to go now."  Do others share this perception?

>>> Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET> 12/20/05 10:35 AM >>>

From: Yasuji Waki yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp
Subject: "Grammar"

When I learned English at high school( of course in Japan), I was taught:

"have" should be read as "haff" in such usage: I have to go to school. Of
course, "have" to be read as "hav" in case that it means " to possess".

I am not sure, if what I have learned is correct.

Regards,
Yasuji Waki

> From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.17 (02) [E]
>
> Steven,
>
> Even though I've lived in California for
> 88% of my life, I'm actually from Iowa.  Perhaps "haff" is more of a
> Midwestern feature.
>
> You know, I don't believe that I have ever heard anyone say, "I hav to go"
> with a /v/ in "have." I think that it is more universal than just the
> midwest, as I live in Arizona and have heard this from people in many
> places.
> Ben 

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