LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.21 (12) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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21 December 2005 * Volume 12
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From: speegled at slu.edu <speegled at slu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.20 (07) [E]

> From: Kevin and Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.20 (03) [E]
>
> > From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> > Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.20 (02) [E]
> >
> > A lot of pronunciation has little effect on understanding; for example
> > many Europeans have problems with both voiced and unvoiced "th" sound
> > in "the, think, w! ith" etc.  So do some English people, but "wiss" or
> > "wizz" from many French and Germans, or "wit","wid" and "wiv" from
> > different speakers in the British Isles are all perfectly
> > understandable.
> >
> > Paul
>
> "Wit" and "wid" for "with" are also common in some US dialects.

Not to mention "wiff" from some Afrikaans speakers (perhaps this is what
Paul meant with "wiv"; if so, I apologize for the redundancy).  I also
noticed that Afrikaans speakers tend to voice the "th" in South Africa, a
habit which I have picked up in my English (it really is much easier to
say it that way!). Do the English South Africans also voice it?

Darrin Speegle

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From: Justin Renquist <justinrenquist at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.21 (08) [D/E]


I disagree vehemently here. In my mind, it is optional and always a 
slang/colloquial speech pattern to say "haff to," hafta" or similar 
combinations with unvoiced "f" sound when meaning "have to."

In correct spoken English, the above is *always* incorrect and sub-standard. 
The only correct combination is "have to" pronounced with a voiced "v" sound 
in all senses including must, have 2 etc.

I do however agree that colloquially "haff to," hafta" are possible for 
"have to" but that "have 2" for "I have 2 of them" can never be unvoiced, 
even colloquially. I believe this is due to "two," and its vowel sound not 
being able to be shortened to a schwa sound as is possible with "to," which 
in turn, contributes to the stress and intonation pattern of "have to" being 
shortened to "hafta" or haff to.

I hope no one is suggesting that "haff" is anything other than 
colloquial/slang English!

Justin

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