LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.24 (01) [E]

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 24 December 2005 * Volume 01
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.12.23 (03) [E]

No, it's not a matter of accents, you should know by now in fact that I'm
an expert in dialects, varieties and accents in Dutch ;-)
Well, it is if you're speaking about people speaking Dutch with a foreign
accent, e.g. Spanish, Polish or Swahili, but then everything is a matter
of accent ;-) Dutch <f> is [f] and that's not the same as <v> [f\].
Ingmar
>
>From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.22 (08) [E]
>>The above is not a matter of accent variations?

>> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.22 (04) [E]
>>
>> Hi David
>>
>> This Omniglot description of Dutch pronunciation has a lot of mistakes
>> in it, however short it may be, and describing D. <v> as [f] is one of
>> them.
>>
>> The other mistakes:
>>
>> <auw> is not [Ou] but [au]
>> <ay> doesn't exist in Dutch, only in English or French loans, but
>> then  it's pronounced as in that language
>> <e> is never [e] but [E], when short
>> <ee> is not [e] but [e:], or rather [e:I]
>> <ieuw> is not [i:u] but [iu]
>> <oo> is not [o] but [o:], or rather [o:U]
>> <uw> is not [y:u] but [yu]
>>
>
>> and finally
>>
>> <v> is not [f] but [f\]
>
>Does this mean <f> and <v> are distinct phonemes one /f/ one /f\/ or
>that both should be /f\/ = [f\]?
>
> I've no idea what sound [f\] represents.  SAMPA does have a diacritic
>section. Would adding any of those to [f] or to [v] serve to give me an
>idea of its sound? Is it usually a voiced sound or a voiceless one?
>
>> Furthermore, <g> is describes as [R] intervocally, that would rather
>> be [G]
>> and that <r> isn't pronounced before <g> is really nonsense.
>>
>> So I wouldn't trust too much on Omniglot here...
>
>Again, not a question of accent variation?
>
>> Met de vriendelijke groeten van [mEt@ "f\rind at l@k@ "xrut@ f\an]
>> Ingmar Roerdinkholder ["INmar ru:rdINk"hOldEr] or ["ru:rdINkhOldEr]
>>
>The SAMPA page for Dutch
>
>http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/dutch.htm
>
>seems to match your transcriptions more closely.   However I'm wary of
>using SAMPA pages because their symbology is phonemic rather than
>phonetic and often the same symbol is used for different sounds in
>different languages.
>
>David Barrow

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From: Paul Tatum <ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.12.23 (03) [E]

Happy yuletide, friends,

Heather wrote:

> But read them over and over again, and they come unbidden to mind.
>
> Is this unavoidable?
>
> Heather
>
Reading Trainspotting did the same for me - it took half the book for
the 'accent' to click - and then for months I could not remove Irvine
Welsh's Glaswegian from my mind's eye when I spoke- fortunately I didn't
actually come out with a mock Glaswegian accent.

TTFN, Paul Tatum.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Well, Ingmar and other native or near-native Dutch speakers,

I have to jump in for our Paul here (and hasn't this year been great with 
him as a more and more vocal member?).

It is and remains a mystery to many of us, at least from a theoretical point 
of view, how "devoiced /v/" does not end up as [f].  I certainly *hear* it 
devoiced, but I still am not sure what the difference is between it and [f]. 
When I pronounce it I devoice the /v/ and try not to "aspirate" it, and that 
usually makes it sound pretty much right, at least to my ears.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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