LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.02 (01) [D/E/LS]

Wed Feb 2 16:36:13 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.01 (05) [LS]

Leve Leeglanners

Ik heff ok all faaken spekuleert of "duun"-ween ni met dat englesche "down"
to doon hätt, wi snack ok lokal in Rendsborg över een "haarbüddel" wenn een
to veel köm un beer drunken hätt. De Nord-Engelsch-Schottisch utspraak
"doon" för "down" is mi bekannt ut Newcastle-upon-Tyne, so segh man daar "we
gaan doon toon" för "we go down-town". Bi Rendsborg giff dat een dörp dat
heet Duvenstedt, de naam schall bedueten "de duven-liggende stede" also, de
daal (nedder) liggende stede, sodenni is "duun" een ol word fär "daal", doch
of dat nu ok met "duun"-ween to doon hätt bön ik mi ni seker. Interessant is
dat in Engelsch "to be down" so veel as "truri, depressiv-ween" bedüt, vlich
is dar doch een verbindung.

Groeten

Helge

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi Jonny and all

Jonny you wrote

>In uns Neddersassischen Dialekt bruukt wi dat Woord
"duhn" ook, wenn  wi över
>een' Taustand snackt, de mennigmool Perblemens bie
dat Liekut-Laupen  mookt
>un dat Snacken un Dinken verboosen deit. Oppletzt
waarst Du slecht, un Du
>wullt gau no Bed hin. Ajoo- meerstendeels
>passeert dat op een Begebenheit, wenn Du tau veel
Beer un Brannvien drunken
>hest.
>Welk Lüüd seggt denn ook, Du weerst in een Beerwitt,
or, leeger, wat Du
>besoopen ween büst.
>
>Woneem is ditt Woord in uns Sprook komen? För "down"
seggt wie anners
jo
>"dool", "daal". Schottisch' Seelüüd, de dat mitbrocht
hefft?

In Middle Low Saxon there's the word 'dûn(e)' meaning (in German)
'aufgeschwollen; dick, voll, betrunken; dicht, eng' (swollen, fat, full,
drunk, dense or narrow). And in Old Saxon there's the word 'dûnunga' meaning
'Tollheit' (madness).

So my guess is it's been in Low Saxon for a long time and is doubtful that
it comes from Scots.

Gary

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From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

Old Saxon has _dûnunga_ 'delirium', 'craze', 'madness', 'possession'; so
theoretically there ought to be an original *_dûn_ 'delirious', 'crazed',
'mad', 'possessed'.  It has been linked with Indo-European *_dheu(@)-_ 'to
shake', 'to swirl', 'to whirl', 'to steam', 'to smell'.

Helge's point (above) is interesting, though: in his northern neck of the
woods (Schleswig-Holstein) place names seen to point to *_duv(en)_ meaning
'low', 'down'.

English "down" actually developed from _dún_ 'dune', 'hill', 'height',
'elevation', in the specific phrase _of dúne_ 'away from/off the height'.
It seems to me that this is a specifically Anglo-Saxon construction.

By the way, In Modern Low Saxon dialects as well as in Missingsch German,
_duun_ can also mean 'dizzy', 'lightheaded'.  Also the Missingsch phrase
_duun un dusselig_ ("_duun_ and stupid") can be used as both 'drunk' and
'groggy', 'dizzy'.  I assume that this _duun_ has been derived from the
meaning 'drunk', which may be unrelated to "down," as indicated in phrases
like _dik un duun_ (_dick un duun_ "thick and _duun_") 'full', both in the
contexts of eating and of being drunk (cf. Scots _fu_, German _voll_, etc.).

The _Oxford English Dictionary_:
<quote>
[OE. _dún_ fem., hill = ODu. _dúna_ (MDu. _dúne_, Du. _duin_, whence mod.LG.
_düne_ sandhill, F. _dune_). Supposed to be of Celtic origin: cf. OIr. _dún_
hill, hill-fort, Welsh _din_, and place-names in _-dûnum_.
    Since _dúna_ must have been in use at an early date in the West Germanic
dialects of Batavia and Lower Saxony, it is doubtful whether the word was
brought by the Saxons from the continent, or adopted, after their settlement
here, from the Britons; the former alternative is favoured by the exact
correspondence in form and gender of the OE. and ODu. words, and by the fact
that in local nomenclature OE. _dún_ seems to have been confined to the
Saxon area. It is, however, in English only that the word has given rise to
an adverb and a preposition: see below.]
</quote>

In Low Saxon (Low German), the usual word for 'down' is _daal_ (phonemic
/daal/, forms like _do(o)l_, _daol_, _då(å)l_, etc. merely being attempts at
spelling "phonetically" -- never pronounced *[da:l] but either [d@:l] or
[do:l], as far as I know), and in some dialects still older _dale_ (with
adverbial _-e_?).  This appears to be related to _daal_ 'dale', 'dell',
'valley'.  So we say things like _Set dy daal_ (_Sett di daal_ "sit yourself
down") or _Hey is daal_ (_He is daal_ "He is down" = on the ground).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.01 (02) [E/LS]

Dag Jonny,

> Where did this word come from into our language? Normally for "down" we
say
> "dool [do:l]", "daal [da:l]". From Scottish sailors perhaps?

Het Nederlandse 'down', neerslachtig, is (ook?) een Engels leenwoord. Het
zou van 'adown' stammen, heuvelafwaarts, met 'a' (van...af)+ 'down'
(heuvel), vergelijkbaar met  'duin', waarbij dit laatste volgens van Dale
een Keltisch woord is (dunum). In Limburg gebruiken we ook doal, bv 'zet
dich doal' (ga zitten).

(Eng)
Dutch down, (depressed) is (also?) an English loan. According the van Dale
etymological it comes from 'adown' with 'a' (away from)+down (hill), poss.
cognate with dune, which is considered a Celtic word (dunum).

In Limburg we also say doal for 'down', e.g. 'zet dich doal' (sit down).

Vriendelijke Groeten

Jo Thys

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