LL-L "Numerals" 2005.02.12 (05) [E]

Sun Feb 13 02:30:54 UTC 2005

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From: Domhnall Seaghdha <domhnall at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.12 (01) [E]

Greetings, Jacqueline...

English is one of my mother tongues (Gaidhlig is another), and I've recently
begun "playing with" Scots with a NEW-found respect having just learnt that
it is indeed a language! and not just "badly" accented English to read Burns
in [said lovingly and jokingly, I assure you...]

In fact when I discovered this list, I thought I was signing on to a Scots
{Lallans = Lowlands} one.  In so far as I had, I immediatly knew that I had
also signed on to much more!   Despite my often feeling that most of the
wonderful discussions I follow and enjoy here go F L Y I N G over my head, I
stay here nonetheless fascinated and enthralled by and in the brilliance of
others...

Otherwise I have NO"right" answering ANYTHING on this exquistely interesting
group's list...  I am but following the suggestion offered in an e-mail
earlier today in which even those of us less experienced or not so broadly
comfortable or learned in Lowlands' languages were ENCOURAGED to join in ...
So...

(1)  It's been my understanding that a good number of the ancient ancestors
of us all counted on their fingers AND/OR their toes to keep track of or
describe numbers of objects...  This practice, of course,  resulted in some
of our languages'  thinking in groups of ten [and I shall use Persian to
illustrate here, as I "need" English to demonstrate the other point
later)...

ye(k), do, seh, chahar, panj, haft, hasht, noh, dah -- which is exactlly
reflected in the system of symbols they and we use (and we refer to as
Arabic numerals) -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10...  and which the
Persians and Arabs call "Hendi" or Indian numerals...

for one MORE than ten -- as well as more up to an additional nine...
(Incidently, one word for "and" or "plus" in Persian is "va" or "o "....)

Persian "adds" them as in the following examples...

yek  + dah = yazdah    [1 plus ten = one-ten or as we say,  eleven = 11 (NB
the symbol is " really " ten+one, isn't it?)

do + dah = davozdah [2 + ten = two 'n' ten or as we say, twelve = (Again,
the symbol is "really" ten + two...)

se + dah = sizdah [3 + ten = 3 'n' ten or as we say, thirteen.... NB!!!
Thirteen = three + ten as is the symbol, 13...

Etc.

AND

In those languages and cultures "based" on "tens" = fingers and toes, one
often finds that the number twenty has more "special" significance and even
its "own" word and use....    Think of the French in which (if I remember
correctly AND as my French spelling AND pronunciation has never been my
strong point I shall not attempt to write out the French here) --- 40 is 2 X
20, 60 is 3 X 20 and 80 = 4 twenties...  AND in English we can refer to --
as did Abraham Lincoln -- "four score and seven years" = 84...

Meanwhile [back at the ranch] others of our ancient ancestors were grouping
things or enumerating them by counting on the knuckles (or as at least some
Romans called them, "digits")of their fingers [of which each hand has
FOUR -- as in English -- along with ONE THUMB -- the thumb NOT being a
finger, although (switching linguistic roots here) fingers and thumbs ARE
both phalanges...

They'd hold up their fingers (having tucked "one  two  three"

>>From the ring finger, "four five six";  the middle finger, "seven  eight
nine"   and, finally, the pointing finger, "ten, eleven, twelve"

While English "twelve" does represent the same number as the Persian
"davozdah" or 2 + 10, the "construction" of the term or word to represent
that number is indeed different...

One can "see" how a system / culture / language "based on" the notion of
"twelve" could easily/naturally give rise to the concepts of fractions:
1/3, 1/4/ 1/12  AND the number of months / moons in a year -- or just about
ANYTHING based (rather than multiples of 10) on multiples of 12 = dozen and
half dozen, 12. 24. 48. etc.

I've grown tired of my own "voice" and shall sit back down for a while...

(2) "old" is me at the end of a day, the end of a week and ANYTIME I haven't
gotten enough sleep...   So far 60 is VERY different from all of the other
ones afore it...    :^)     NOT bad, but very "different"...

Domhnall

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From:  R. F. Hahn <http://www.lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Numerals

Ciad mile failte, a Dhomhnall!

To you, too, welcome!  It's a pleasure to meet you.

Thanks for the extensive first posting!

Beannachd leibh!

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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