LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.01.27 (03) [E]

Thu Jan 27 21:23:25 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.01.27 (02) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>and generalizing dative and accusative as plain objective, both important
features of Low Saxon and of other Missingsch dialects.<

At what time did this take place / start to take place / is there evidence
of this taking place?

How widespread is it? i.e. Frisian? Jutish? as well as Low Saxon

And could you ( roughly) define the area of the Missingsch dialects,
please.

Sorry for the barrage of questions but you shouldn't post such informative/
interesting new material!!!!!!

Heather Rendall

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi there, Heather!

You said above (in response to what I had posted):

> Sorry for the barrage of questions but you shouldn't post such
informative/
> interesting new material!!!!!!

Nice to be barraged, certainly nicer than being ignored, and nice to know
that this is of interest to you.

Again, I need to make this briefer than I'd like to, mostly because of I
lack the knowledge and time to be more specific and detailed.

> At what time did this take place / start to take place / is there evidence
> of this taking place?

This was a slow process beginning roughly with the late sixteenth century,
i.e., with the decline of the Hanseatic League
(http://members.bellatlantic.net/~baronfum/hansa.html,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League, whose international lingua
franca was Saxon) ending sometime in the middle or late 20th century when
educational standardization and national media inundation phased out
Missingsch.

As far as I can tell, there is no detailed study of this, Missingsch having
always been treated as marginal.  However, you can tell by many written
German sources beginning in about the 17th century, that German written by
Northerners had various levels of LS interference, typically morphological
errors following LS patterns (e.g., confusion of dative and accusative),
"phonetic" spelling showing phonological interference (e.g., _Tach_ for
_Tag_; cf. LS _dag_ [dax] 'day') and literally translated idiomatic
expressions (e.g., _ab und an_ instead of _ab und zu_ or _gelegentlich_;
e.g., _af un an_ ~ _af un to_ 'on and off', 'once in a while').  All these
are typical features of Missingsch.  Also, there are written complaints
about the "decline" of language, about folks abandoning the Saxon language
and adopting "corrupted" German, of Saxon being inundated by Germanisms and
German being inundated by Saxon ... depending on the writers' perspectives.
This went on well into the 19th century, beginning with what is considered
the transition between Middle Saxon and Modern Saxon, a time in which both
Saxon and German where neither here nor there in Germany.

Missingsch is really not clearly definable, though there are certain
distinguishing marks.  It is a bit of a sliding scale between "extreme"
Missingsch and "acceptable" Northern German (German with Northern
pronunciation, idiomatic expressions and vocabularly, albeit with correct
German grammar), much like Scots and Scottish English are distinguished by a
fuzzy borderline.  It is still normal for Northerners to say [tax] for _tag_
(Standard [ta:k] 'day'), [tsUx] for _Zug_ (Standard [tsu:k], 'train',
'trek', 'procession') and [ve:C] for _Weg_ (Standard [ve:k], 'way'); cf. LS
_Dag_ [dax], _Tog_ [tOx] and _Weg_ [vEC] (pl. _Weeg'_ [ve:.j] ~ [ve:C])
respectively.

Also, let us remember that Standard German is not based only on Southern
German dialects but underwent much Northern influence, was thus indirectly
influences by Saxon.  What I grew up with was a case of "mild" or "moderate"
Hamburg Missingsch.  Many less educated older people and in some
neighborhoods most people spoke more "extreme" forms when I was a child.
Our common, unspoken aim was to approximate our language to Standard German
as much as possible along the road to economic success.  Both "good" German
speakers and Low Saxon speakers tended to look down on Missingsch.  It was
an undesirable no-man's land to be in -- neither here nor there, neither
fish nor flesh, just really bad German.  However, there are those that like
Missingsch and the proletarian "in-your-face wit" stereotypically attributed
it.  There are, for example, Hamburg's _Klein Erna_ jokes (about a girl that
inevitably hits the nail on the head in her "ignurnd" Missingsch way), and
the _Berliner Schnauze_ ("Berliner mouth") is legendary -- fresh/cheeky,
irreverantly calling a spade a spade.

In most places, Missingsch is now moribund, if not in fact extinct.  I can
still speak if if I will myself to do so, can even do an "extreme" version
of it, but hardly anyone speaks like this anymore.

As I said, morphological differentiation between dative and accusative is a
German feature, while Saxon, like Dutch and Afrikaans, morphologically
distinguishes only a generic objective case; e.g.,

English: I see YOU.  I give YOU my hand.
Dutch:  Ik zie JOUW/JE.  Ik geef JOUW/JE mijn hand.
Afrikaans: Ek sien JOU.  Ek gee JOU my hand.
LS:  Ik sey DY.  Ik geev' DY myn hand.  (Ik seh DI. Ik geef DI mien Hand)
St.Germ.:  Ich sehe DICH.  Ich gebe DIR meine Hand.
Berlin M.:  Ick seh DIR.  Ick geb DIR meine Hand.
Hamb.M.:  Ich seh DICH.  Ich geb DICH meine Hand.

For many Missingsch varieties it is typical to use cognates from German and
LS and specialize them semantically.  For example, German _nur_ and LS _man_
can mean more or less the same: (1) 'only', 'merely' and (2) 'go ahead and
...!', 'do ...!' (encouraging).  In Hamburg Missingsch and in other
varieties, _nur_ is used in the sense of 'only' while _man_ is used in the
other sense; e.g.,

English: I have only three marks.  Do come in!
LS:  Ik hev man drey mark [ma:k].  Kaam man rin!
St.Germ.:  Ich habe nur drei Mark.  Komm(e) nur herein!
Hamb.M.:  Ich hab [hap] nur drei Mark [ma:k].  Komm man rein!

Missingsch is merely a case with a label, a name.  This is similar to
_Stedsk (Frysk)_ ("urban (Frisian)") of Friesland (in the Netherlands),
where Dutch is spoken on noticeable Frisian substrates.  There are other
such cases, though usually not labeled and not defined.  Low Saxon (Low
German) of Eastern Friesland (which switched from Frisian to LS in the 15th
and 15th centuries) has strong Frisian substrates, and the earlier German
dialects of the area -- Missingsch, so to speak, have this mixture as
substrates.  (Thus, it's a three-layer affair.)  Substitute "Dutch" for
"German," and a similar thing applies for Dutch of Groningen (given that the
LS dialects there have Frisian substrates, too).  Also, Dutch dialects of
other parts of the Eastern Netherlands have LS substrates.  However, the
difference between Dutch and LS (who belong to the same "Low German" branch)
are far less apprarent than differences between German and LS.

Have I answered your questions, at least in part?

Best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron

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