LL-L "Phonology" 2005.07.01 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 01.JUL.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: Phonology

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.06.27 (12) [E]
> About the A-site: I listened to Luc Vanbrabant's Westvlams Wren, and it
> stroke me how much resemblance his spoken version shows to
> Zeeuwsvlaams,
> my mother's maternal dialect. I'll ask her to make a Zeeuwsvlaams
> translation as well. I read Luc's version before, but was puzzled by
> the
> spelling that looked closer to East-Flemish than to West-Flemish,
> especially because of the diphthongs in stead of monophthongs for
> Proto-
> Germanic long i:, u:, and u: +umlaut (y:).
> Luc, you write <ij>, <eu> and <ou> but in the recording you pronounce
> them
> just like in Zeeuwsvlaams, as [i], [y] and [u], at least that's what I
> hear.
> So your spelling is closer to Standard Dutch than your pronunciation.
> Standard Dutch <ij> = [E.], <eu> = [ø:(i)], ou = [a.]
>
> Exx:
>
> "achter 'n tijdje komm'n die ouders were theus"
>
> from this spelling we would expect:
>
> WFl   tijdje = ["tE.c@] = StDutch  tijdje ["tE.c@]
> WFl   ouders = ["a.d at rs]= StDutch  ouders ["a.d at rs]
> WFl   theus  = [tø:(i)s]= StDutch  thuis  [tö.s]
>
> but we hear:
>
> Wfl  tijdje = ["tic@]
> Wfl  ouders = ["ud at rs]
> Wfl  theus  = [tys]
>
> So wouldn't it be clearer to use a spelling like:
>
> tiedje, or tîdje
> oeders, or oedders
> thuus, or thüs
> ?
>
> Also, you write silent h:
>
> daovan hè me stijf verschoot'n    hè = [E]
>
> and [h] as <g>
>
> nu zijn d'ouders te gaon          gaon = [hO:~]
>
> I would write <è> and <haon> here.
>
> And of course <stief> for <stijf>, <zien> for <zijn>
Hi Ingmar,

You have a point here.
But,
I have written three or four versions of the wren history. The problem
is that in the first ones the spelling was very close to the
pronounciation, and the text  was rather difficult to read. So i
changed it in two ways:
-words like  'gjin/kljinne' i respelled like 'geên/kleêne' ,following
the spelling of one of your  'Zeeuws-Vlaamse' lowlanders.
-My Wfl <ie> in <stief/zien/tiedje> is quiet different than the Dutch
<ie> .The <ie> in kiek'n (E: chicken) is very different than the <ij>
in kijk'n (E: to look) And historically, the <ij> had that Wfl
pronounciation, so that feels more natural.

The same thing goes for for using <g/ch> instead of <h>, because we
always pronounce those letters as a <h>, and it is again more easy for
Dutch speakers to follow  the story.
The silent h is not always silent:
..daovan hè me... (silent h) ...hè me daovan... (aspirate h)
And there is more,
placenames like
"Emelgem/Izegem/Waregem/Zottegem/Zomergem/.../Kachtem/Pittem/Gottem/
Mullem... have all the suffix 'heim' in their etymology, with or
without the h/g.

I'm also not professionally involved in language-matters. So i didn't
want to go to far away from the Dutch spelling, or the historical
spellings of the words. That's one advantage for us West-Flemings, to
read old Dutch like our Flemish  and to be able to understand it quiet
easely, if the word itself is still used of course.
I'll hope you can understand my point of view.

Vriendelijke groeten,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From: "Holger Weigelt" <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Phonology"

> >> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> >> Subject: Phonology
> >>
> >> Hi, Ben!
> >>
> >> I don't know if this helps, but I can tell you that Old (High) German,
> >> too, has /kwam/ <quam> for 'came' (e.g., _AKK sahun thi mithont quamun
> >> gahun_ 'Those that came at once beheld the great misery').  The same
> >> applies to Old Saxon (e.g., _ Allsô hê umbi thia eggia quam, was that
> the
> >> leo, the thar hliop_ 'When he came around the corner, it turned out to
be
> >> the lion that was walking there').  Modern German has _kam-_, and
Modern
> >> North Saxon has _keym-_.
> >>
Hello, Ben and Ron !
Eastern Friesland Low Saxon has "kwam" or "kwäim" for "came". These are
local variants but some people use both of them by chance.
Against the general tendency to give up genuine vocabulary or phonetic
variants of EFLS "keem" or "keim" sounds too strange for East Frisians than
to adapt to.
Greetings, Holger

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