LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.06 (08) [E]

Wed Jul 6 19:55:35 UTC 2005

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From: "Rikus Kiers" <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2005.07.05 (05) [E]

Ron commented about the word Quell and Born

Ron , could it be that somewhere in saxon language history there were to
words meaning both ( in E) spring .
In Drents I only know the word Wel, meaning spring.
Bron is nowadays used there but definitely borrowed from Dutch.
Dutch knows also the word "wel"
This word comes back in the dutch  : opwellen, which means "opborrelen van
een idee, tranen" in english: to well up from ideas or tears. Also
Opwelling.
Could Born, in dutch bron, have a same origin as opborrelen? It sounds
logical to me, but is it? And how to explain opwellen and opborrelen coming
from the same origin, or are there two origins, probably both in Saxon.

My knowledge is limited in these.

This LLList is very inspiring and Ron's contributions especially.

Rikus Kiers

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From: "Rikus Kiers" <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language competency" 2005.07.05 (02) [E/LS]

Holger wrote a.o : wi betrukken 'n hotel
he suggested the word betrukken in this sense would be a wrong tramslation
from german HD.
I wonder if this is correct and if the verb betrekken not an original LS
verb is.
In drenthe where I am born and grew up till I was eighteen, the word
betrekken has(certainly had) a double meaning:
wij hebt an nei hoes/hotel betrukken  en
hie hef hum leeluk betrukken, of zal ik dij ies eeven betrekken
E: we moved into a new house/ hotel
and: he has badly attacked him or shall I attack you(threatening)

As drents and eastern frisian are both mainly from saxon origin. And drents
is not from HG origin and as I suppose has originally not many influences
from HG, there might be double originally LS origin

In dutch there is the word betrekken, which means move into. and this verb
has as far as I know not the meaning to attack only It must be have the
double meaning from a saxon origin.
Furthermore in drents and in dutch there is the word betrekking, which means
job, in dutch also baan.
The meaning in drents : iene betrekken, iene betrukken hebben is attacking
including severe damaging. You are coming in your agression so close onto
someone that you almost come into him.
I can imagine that there is some resemblance coming together in the nowadays
double meaning of the verb betrekken. Something like : take possession of a
house , a hotelroom. a job and the comfort zone of a person.
Would this make sense? Who knows more?
Rikus Kiers

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen, Rikus!

> Ron , could it be that somewhere in saxon language
> history there were to
> words meaning both ( in E) spring .
> In Drents I only know the word Wel, meaning spring.
> Bron is nowadays used there but definitely borrowed from Dutch.
> Dutch knows also the word "wel"

Quite likely.  Actually, it seems to be a fact that the two words existed
in ancient times:

Old Saxon for '(well)spring':
   born, burno, brunno
   kwella
   spring, springi, gispring, gispringi, upspring

Old Low Franconian for '(well)spring':
   brunno

Old Frisian for '(well)spring':
   burna
   walla

Old English for '(well)spring':
   wiell, wiella, wiellgespring
   cielde, cwiella, ealdor
   spring, gespring, wiellgespring
   sÃ©aÃ¾
   Ç£der, Ç£dre
   ord, ordfruma
   funt, funta

Old Norse for '(well)spring':
   brunnr, bruÃ°r
   kelda

Old Saxon for 'well':
   born
   sÃ´th

Old Low Franconian for 'well':
   brunno
   putte

Old Frisian for 'well':
   burna
   sÃ¢th
   walla

Old English for 'well':
   wiell, wiella
   sÃ©aÃ¾
   pytte
   (burna 'well water')*

Old Norse for 'well':
   lind
   (kvika 'well water')*

* cf. Modern Low Saxon _kwikborn_ (<Quickborn>) 'spring (with fresh
water)', _kwikken_ (<quicken>) 'to refresh', 'to revive', _kwik_ (<quick>)
'lively', 'bubbly', 'in good health'

In Northern Saxon of Germany, _soot_ is still the usual word for 'well',
and _born_ for 'spring'.  _BÃ¶rnen_ (~ _bÃ¶rmen_) means 'to let drink',
'to water', in reference to animals.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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