LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.18 (07) [D/E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.17 (14) [E]

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Beste Henno,
>
> You wrote:
>
>>> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Lexicon
>>>
>>> Hi Hyazinth (and Ron and Heather too ;-) ),
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Lombardic also had a g-form "Godan", and most (if not all) Germanic
>>> words that ever made it into French changed initial _w_ to _g_
>>>
>>> "want" (fingerless glove) (D) > "gant" (French)
>>> "war" (E) ~ "verwarring" (D) > "guerre" (French)
>>> "warranty" (E) > "garantie" (French)
>>
>> This suggests that garantie comes from warranty, which is in fact the
>> other way round: the English form comes from French, albeit Norman
>> French (the stress and suffix gives it away too), which did preserve
>> the w- (even today, the original French dialect of the Channel Islands
>> still has it), maybe because the ruling classes were originally North
>> Germanic and did have a w- sound in their original language. The same
>> goes for ward and wardrobe eg (robe is French). The gauarantee, guard
>> etc  forms are later additions from official French.
>
> I agree "warranty" was not a good example, but the problem was that at
> the time, I couldn't find a modern English word that is cognate with
> "weren" (D), "wehren" (G), which is the basis from which "warranty" has
> finally been formed. It was my intention to show that Germanic roots
> starting with *w* + vowel are invariably translated into *g*, when being
> "loaned" in French. In the meantime I did find better examples:
>
> "warjan" (Frankish) ~ "weren" (D) > "guérir" (French, to heal)
> "wardôn" (Frankish) > "garder" (French, to keep)
> "waidanjan" (Frankish) ~ "weiden" (D) > "gagner" (French, to win)
> "wahi" (Frankish) ~ "wei" (zoals in kaaswei) > "gai" (French, vivid)
> "wallan" (Old High German) ~ "wellen" (D) > "galer" (French, to have
> fun) ~ "galant"
> "wala hlaupan" (Frankish) ~ "wel lopen" (D) > "waloper" (Picardian) >
> "galoper" (French)
> "wrakjo" (Frankish proper name) > "gars" (French, guy) ~ "garçon",
> "garce"
> "warôn" (Frankish) ~ bewaren (D) > "garer" (French, to park) ~ "garage",
> "gare"
> "warnjan" (Frankish) ~ "to warn" (E) ~ "waar-schuwen" (D) > "garnir"
> (French, to furnish)
> "wari-wulf" (Frankish) ~ "weerwolf" (D) > "garwalf" (Old French) >
> "leu-garoul" > "loup-garou"
> "wafel" (D) > "gaufre" (French)
> "waso" (Frankish) ~ "waas" (D), zoals in "Het Land van Waas" > "gazon"
> (French, lawn)
> ...
>
> This is what browsing *g* + vowel *a* in my French etymological
> dictionary produced...sure enough the other vowels will yield more
> examples.
>
> Kind greetings,
>
> Luc Hellinckx

Hi,

This from:

http://www.etymonline.com/

gu-
    since g- followed by a vowel in Eng. usually has a "soft"
pronunciation, a silent -u- was sometimes inserted between the g- and
the vowel in M.E. to signal hardness, especially in words from Fr.; but
this was not done with many Scand. words where hard "g" precedes a vowel
(gear, get, give, etc.). Gmc. -w- generally became -gu- in words
borrowed into Romance languages, but O.N.Fr. preserved the Frankish -w-,
and Eng. sometimes borrowed both forms, hence guarantee/warranty,
guard/ward, etc.

David Barrow

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.18 (03) [E]


From: Sandy Fleming
Subject: "Etymology" [E]
I take it that this is something a native speaker of Tok Pisin doesn't 
notice?

Are there children who go to school as monolingual speakers of Tok Pisin and
find English quaint and delightful?

Sandy

There are certainly many people who grow up with Tok Pisin as their first 
language - Mum and Dad grew up with mutually unintelligible languages and 
can only speak to each other in Pidjin, so the kids learn it.  They don't 
think it quaint.  "Bagarapim" is simply the verb to break or destroy, they 
wouldn't think of it as a "corrupted" form of "bugger-up him".  They 
wouldn't think English was quaint either.  They live in a country with over 
750 languages (among just 5 million people); the idea of people speaking 
other languages is a natural as breathing.

Paul

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.18 (03) [E]

Hi all

Ron, if an old Afrikaans form such as 'sus' (i.e 'nurse' a baby to sleep) 
does not
originate from any similar onomatopoeic forms in Dutch or Low Saxon, I 
cannot
imagine that it comes from English which only arrived here more than a 150 
years
after Afrikaans had started developing from the linguistic melting pot.

It would be hard to find old Afrikaans text showing 'sus' though. What is 
'milk' or
'nursing' in Malay?

Cheerio,
Elsie
>Interesting thought, considering a possible "Malay" connection.
>However, could it not simply be a word like English "hush"?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Elsie,

Nee, nee!  You must have misunderstood my meaning.  I did not suggest that 
Afrikaans _sus_ is derived from English "hush."  I meant to say that it may 
be something *like* "hush" or "shoosh" (or Yiddish שאַ _sha_).

And, yet, Dutch has the verb _sussen_ 'to calm', etc.

Also, I vaguely recall _suse_ ["su:ze] used in a similar sense in older Low 
Saxon lullabyes. (E.g.,  _Suse, nanje, ik weyge dy. Wardst du wat older, den 
sloyg' ik dy_ which is connected with an old Dutch version, something like 
_Soeze, nanje, ik wiege jij ..._. Does anyone know it?  I have the LS 
version in a book down in California.)

Also, I wonder if the word is related to LS _suustern_ (~ _swiestern_) 'to 
whisper'.

> What is 'milk' or 'nursing' in Malay?

milk:
Malay/Indonesian: susu, memberi susu
Balinese: yeh nyonyo (low), toyan susu (polite), toyan nuroja
Sundanese: ?
Javanese: ?

to nurse:
Malay/Indonesian _menyusui_ (< *men-susu-i)
Balinese: ?
Sundanese: ?
Javanese: ?

'breast/udder' (Malay/Indonesian _susu_) in the Philippines:
Tagalog _suso_
Hiligaynon _suso_
Cebuano _soso_, _suso_

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Luc, I corrected you and messed up (the right-to-left thing not 
working).  Let's try it again: ﻕﻮﻓ

***
Tijdens het babyvoeden kijkt een peuter eerst op moeders rug en vraagt dan: 
"Waar is het flesje? Heb jij een flesje in je borst?" Rosa (2 jaar) 
[http://www.pinkelotje.nl/]

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