LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.07.20 (09) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi Heiko!

Heiko wrote:

> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
> Subject: Fluss vs. Stroom
>
> Moin tosamen,
>
> for High-German "Fluss" my dictionaries tell me two different things
> 1) Stroom (Sass)
> 2) Fluss (Hermann-Winter, Mecklenborg)
>
> I have heard that "Stroom" is supposed to be the original one. And
> even in
> High German (here in Hamburg) we refer to big rivers as "Strom", like the
> Elbe river or the Rhine. But in High Germany we would not consider the
> Alster
> or the Krückau to be Strom, but Fluss.
>
> What are your ideas about Stroom. How big does a river have to be, in
> oder to
> deserve being a "Stroom", and what is below. Is there anything between
> "Stroom" and "Beek"? Are there dialect differences? I was surprised
> that the
> Mecklenborg dictionary does not list Stroom, but maybe they are too
> far away
> from rivers that are "Stroom"s?
>
> Any suggestions?

Primarily, in Brabant, we have _beek_ for a brook (Dutch _broek_ means
marshland in English however).

Two other words must have been very productive in the past though, as
there are lots of toponymical relics: _vliet_ and _voer_.
_Vliet_ seems to hint more at water flowing swiftly than _voer_ (as an
adjective 'e vlietig maske' = 'a spirited, lively girl'). 'Vlie(land)'
and 'Flevo(land)' (latinization) in the Netherlands are other examples.
'Voer' gets umlaut in Brabant and then becomes 'vüür', like in the
village of Tervuren, near Brussels.

A ditch is called 'ne grecht', _gracht_ in Standard Dutch < 'graft' ~
'graf', both derived from the verb 'graven' (D), 'to dig' (E). I never
heard anybody use the word _sloot_ (D) around here...very common in the
North though. The word _kanaal_ ('canal' (E)) is not native here
either...always 'vààt' < _vaart_ (D). Other options are _water_ and
_loop_ (and 'waterloop' of course, but that's more of a schoolish word).

Regarding big streams, _vloed_ has become obsolete in my neck of the
woods, and has been entirely replaced by _rivier_.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: Classifying streams (according to their size) may become just as
confusing as understanding why every little bump in this landscape is
termed "berg" ;-)

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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Lexicon"

> From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
> Subject: Fluss vs. Stroom
>
> Moin tosamen,
>
... Is there anything between
> "Stroom" and "Beek"? Are there dialect differences? I was surprised that
the
> Mecklenborg dictionary does not list Stroom, but maybe they are too far
away
> from rivers that are "Stroom"s?
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Heiko Evermann
> Hamburg, Germany
>
Moin, Heiko !

In Eastern Friesland the normal expression for a smaller river is "ē". In
the past or as regional variants this also can be pronounced "óó" or "ī".
In geographical names it sometimes occurs as "Ehe". In "Ihlow" (a village
near Aurich) You can reconstruct the meaning "wood beside a small river". In
Saterfrisian it is "äi".

Kind regards
Holger

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Lexicon

Mah mayan Luc:

> Primarily, in Brabant, we have _beek_ for a brook (Dutch _broek_ means
> marshland in English however).

It's pretty much the same thing in Low Saxon of Germany:

beek (<Beek> [be:k], [bE:k], [biE:\k]) 'brook', 'rivulet', 'minor river'

brouk (<Brook> [brOUk], <Brauk> [braUk], German _Bruch_)
   'swampy ground', 'wetland', 'wooded area adjacent to water'
   (cognate of English "brook")*

* This occurs in family names, usually Brookmann (my mother's maiden name) 
or Brauckmann, also the famous Buddenbrook.

> PS: Classifying streams (according to their size) may become just as
> confusing as understanding why every little bump in this landscape is
> termed "berg" ;-)

Hear, hear!  Same in relatively flat Northern Germany, where just about 
every mole hill is a _barg_ [ba:x] and translated into German _Berg_.

But wouldn't you expect a bit more differentiation of water ways in the 
flat, wet, low-lying Lowlands?

And mah mayun mayan Holger:

> In Eastern Friesland the normal expression for a smaller river is "ē". In
> the past or as regional variants this also can be pronounced "óó" or "ī".
> In geographical names it sometimes occurs as "Ehe". In "Ihlow" (a village
> near Aurich) You can reconstruct the meaning "wood beside a small river". 
> In
> Saterfrisian it is "äi".

There you go!  This jives with what I wrote about Old Saxon earlier today:

> Old Saxon has rare occurrence
> of _oia_.  If this had survived, I would expect Modern LS (North Saxon)
> (*oje >) *_ooj_ or (*aje >) *_aaj_, perhaps *_aa_ (as in Scandinavian).  I
> therefore conclude that _Au_ is a German loan.

_Ē_ makes sense as an umlauted derivation, as does _óó_.  If they survived 
in other North Saxon dialects, I'd expect *_ey_ ([E:\I] ~ [a:\I] < *aje) and 
*_ou_ ([O:\U] ~ [a:\U] < *oje).

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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