LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.22 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.22 (04) [E]

Isn't <prügeln> the normal German expression for beating up someone?
If it is from a word meaning <stick>, is a common procedure in Dutch to
have words for especially (disobedient) boys named after pieces of wood.
Like "knaap" = boy + wooden coat-hanger, "knuppel" = boy + club, "vlegel"
= flail + boy, "bengel", "kleuter", etc.

About <doerak>, that is Standard Dutch too, and known to be of Russian
descent. According to NEW (J de Vries' Nederlands Etymologisch Woordenboek)
a loan from the time the cossacks were in the Netherlands.

<Kebaal> is Standard Dutch <kabaal>, synonym to <lawaai> (an interesting
word as well), both meaning <noise>, <row>, <rumour>, through French
<cabale>, from Hebr. <kaballa>.

So Yiddish didn't probably play a roll here

Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Folks,
>
>As I was putting finishing touches to various anniversary site pages, I
>stumbled across three particularly interesting words in our Arend's
>Hoogeveen Low Saxon version
>(http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=dreents-hoogeveen).
>
>PRUGEL (pruygel, Prügel): child
>I assume this is related to German _Prügel_ 'stick for beating', 'beating'
>(Nice! ... ;-) )
>
>DOERAK (durak): fool, idiot (and other lovely things, I'm sure)
>I wondered what a Russian word (дурак _durak_) was doing in a Drenthe Low
>Saxon dialect. But discovery of the following item leads me to assume that
>this one, too, reached the language via a fringe "jargon" (bargoens) from
>Yiddish, in which דוראַק _durak_, loaned from Russian or Ukrainian, is
>sometimes used.
>
>KEBAAL: mysterious to-do, questionable happening
>related to German _Kabale_, English "cabal," etc., going back to Hebrew
>קַבָּלָה _qabbâlâh_ (most likely via Yiddish קבלה _kabole_ and a jargon),
>English "Cabala" or "Kabbalah," denoting Jewish philosophy of mysticism, a
>doctrine of esoteric knowledge of God and the universe

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lowlands-l. ETYMOLOGY 2005.22.07 [04]


Hey y'all!

I was just resting up from a tumultuous trip to Thrace and the Ostmark 
(better watch out for those marches/marks/marche/moerk: they tend to make us 
aware of borders and rustle up the latent wanderlust), when, as if by magic,

Ron schreev:

<As I was putting finishing touches to various anniversary site pages, I 
stumbled across 3 particularly interesting words in our Arend's Hoogeveen 
Low Saxon version...
<...DOERAK (durak): fool, idiot...>borrowed from Russian or Ukrainian..."

Let me interject that two words for 'fool, idiot' in the Gothic of the 
mid-fourth Century were "dwala" and "raka". Good sources would place the 
etymology of "raka" as of Scythian or Persian origin, but the "dwala" is 
pure old, down-home Gothic Germanic, forerunner of our "dull" and "dullard" 
(to which I myself answer).

It is thus possible that the opprobrium "durak" was an assimilation made, at 
least by Slavs, perhaps also by Goths, of the two most frequently used terms 
of assessment upon completion of rigorous educational testing and 
intelligence measurement techniques of that era: Dwala! Raka! Duraka!

 The Slavs took a number of words from Gothic in both the Wielbark era on 
the southern shore of the Baltic, and the subsequent Chernovich culture in 
present-day Ukraine and Romania.

Servus beinand.

Arthur

Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

Or, perhaps they sound similar because all are onomatopoetic.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, guys, and welcome home, Arthur!

Arthur about _doerak_ < _durak_:

> Let me interject that two words for 'fool, idiot' in the Gothic of the 
> mid-fourth Century were
> "dwala" and "raka". Good sources would place the etymology of "raka" as of 
> Scythian or
> Persian origin, but the "dwala" is pure old, down-home Gothic Germanic, 
> forerunner of
> our "dull" and "dullard" (to which I myself answer).
>
> It is thus possible that the opprobrium "durak" was an assimilation made, 
> at least by |
> Slavs, perhaps also by Goths, of the two most frequently used terms of 
> assessment
> upon completion of rigorous educational testing and intelligence 
> measurement
> techniques of that era: Dwala! Raka! Duraka!

Now, Arthur, the plot thickens ... perhaps.  Or "you let something slip," to 
borrow our Heather's words.

In Low Saxon you can refer to 'silly', 'nonsensical' and the like (besides 
with French-derived _mal_ <mall>) with _dwal_ (<dwall>) or _dwaller-watsch_ 
(<dwallerwatsch>), 'nonsense' (German _Quatsch_) as _dwaller-watschen kraam_ 
or _dwaller-watsch tuyg_.

Any connection or _dwaller-watsch tuyg_?

Oh, and then there is _rakker_ (<Racker>) meaning 'scoundrel' ...

Wondering ...
Reinhard/Ron

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