LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.25 (10) [E/LS]

Tue Jul 26 03:53:42 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUL.2005 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" hinseln

Dear Lowlanders! Dear Reinhard/Ron, Jonny Meibohm, Doug Wilson and Jan 
Strunk!

Thank you very much for appreciating my contribution to etymology of
henseln/hinseln. So hebb ick mi kind of inhinselt in the hanse of the
lowlands-l as an Austrian, an interested highlander in lowlands matters.

In the german Wikipedia stood:

"Schließlich verbreitete sich das hochdeutsche hänseln auch im
Niederdeutschen."

I changed it into:

"Schließlich verbreitete sich das niederdeutsche hänseln auch im
Hochdeutschen." http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4nseln

I think this is way a Highlander can promote LG.

As high-german (HG) speaking my interest in this community is primarly the
relation between high german, low german and dutch, as I wrote already in my
debut-message.

At the moment I'm looking for sources to back the theory that HG is
linguistically a derivate language of LG:

Historcal background: The german tribes who germaniced todays central and
southern Germany, Luxemburg, Austria and Switzerland came originally from
todays Low Saxony, so called: Elbgermans (Germans from the river Elbe). They
originally settled at the lower reaches of the Elbe and were later displaced
to the upper reaches of the river by the pressure of Saxon and other
germanic tribes.

The migration continued so the Elbgermans settled as far as upper Italy. The
mingled with non-germanic speaking people (Romans, Slavs, romaniced Celts
etc.), which were germaniced, but had an enourmous influence to the
language: the so called High-German sound shift. The name Alemanni was
generated in this era, indicating: all men (germans, romans etc.), which
mingled since then. The name Bavaria is possibly non-germanic. In northern
Italy the elbgermanic Langobards/Lombards where romaniced.

But the point is: Originally these Elbgermans settled in the North and spoke
probably a low-german language, which must have been very close to Old Saxon
and Old-Franconian/Dutch.

Has anybody a knowledge about proto-germanic sources? In this context I only
found the proto Germanic inscription

"ek hlewagastir holtingar horna tawiðo"

Another version is: ek hlewagastiz holtijaz horna tawido

which means I Luigast the holting made this horn, in danish: jeg Hlevagastir
Holtingen (fra Holt), gjorde hornene, in Dutch: Ik Hwelegast, Holtz zoon,
heb de hoorn vervaardigd, in High-German: Ich Hlewagast Holzinger fertigte
das Horn. An LS translation is not available. (Source: mainly wikipedia
about the "Golden horns of Gallehus", versions in different languages)

It's seen proto-germanic in the sense both proto-north- and
proto-westgermanic. But is it also proto-highgerman(HG)?

"holtingar" seems to be unshifted HG Holzinger, a family name pretty
frequent in the South, especially Bavaria and Austria, although they didn't
have family names then. tawido is close to gothic taujan, so like HG tuan
with a t instead of a d and a diphtong in the middle.

Are there further sources of germanic languages before the so called
Voelkerwanderung, the migration of german tribes to the south since about
150 AD?

Linguistically it is pretty likely, that the later HG speaking Elbgermans
originally used a LG tongue close to LS and Dutch.

The Relevanz for Lowlands:

Especially since the 19. century LG/LS and Dutch was condemned by
HG-enthousiasts in particular by the Prussians as lower in the sense of less
worthy than HG. This notion still exists, unfortunately especially in
northern Germany.

What a good argument to promote LS/LG in northern Germany is it to kind of
see it the other way round, to see LG as the original and High-German (HG)
its derivative daughter!

Regards,
Karl-Heinz

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Servus un moin again, dear Karl-Heinz!

> So hebb ick mi kind of inhinselt in the hanse of the
> lowlands-l as an Austrian, an interested highlander in lowlands matters.

Ja, dat kannst wull seggen!  Debut with a bang.  Consider yourself properly 
_inhinselt_!  Maak wieder so, Jung!  Un vääl Spood bi Dien Feldtog!  Kannst 
ook bruken as "Dwarsdriever" ...  ;-)

Well, don't feel apologetic about being "hoch" and Austrian to boot, a 
_Quiddje_ in the words of a Hamburger.  We've come across worse. ;-)  Nah! 
Just kidding you.  First of all, you are not the only Austrian on the List, 
and secondly, anyone is at least an honorary Lowlander among us (unless he 
or she formally rejects and denounces this distinct honor, in which case we 
customarily do the proper nautical thing until they change their minds: 
keel-hauling, the last stage before formal _uuthinseln_, a.k.a. 
"de-Lowlandization").

As you will see, we have a whole bunch of more "exotic" Lowlanders on board, 
including a Japanese Lowlander that concentrates on Low Saxon.  And, as you 
can already tell, we are not always _tierisch ernst_.

Your way of looking at the development of Continental Germanic languages is 
interesting.  I see nothing fundamentally wrong or counter-intuitive with 
it.  It's just a matter of perspective, and it seems factual, given that the 
so-called Middle and High German varieties branched off southward and 
acquired "aberrant" features there.  We've talked about Celtic substrates or 
influences in Southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Northern Italy 
before, as possible sources of stop fricativization and affricatization 
(perhaps in part due to strong aspiration -- considering also Modern 
Allemannic [k`] > [kx`]).  I don't think we've really covered 
"Verwelschung," namely Romance substrates and influences which themselves 
mostly came with Celtic substrates.  (A lot of that is undoubtedly found in 
what are now Belgium and Northern France.)

What is now Northern Germany was never conquered by the Romans (though hard 
they did try, poor guys), and, as far as we know, it was not previously 
inhabited by Celts, unlike some areas of what are now the official Low 
Countries.  This may account for some of the linguistic conservatism. 
However, some of the regions came to overlap with Slavonic-speaking areas 
quite early (e.g., Eastern Holstein and the Lunenburg area), even before 
Saxon colonization of predominantly Slavonic areas farther east beginning in 
earnest with the 12th century.  So, Low Saxon does have a lot of Slavonic 
(Polabian) influences beginning just east of Hamburg, including the eastern 
parts of the Lunenburg Heath.  Heavy-duty Slavonic influences and also some 
Baltic influences are found in the dialects that used to be used along the 
Baltic coast east of what is now the German-Polish border, especially 
Eastern Pomeranian (Kashubian) influences.  The still vital representatives 
of these are the Mennonite dialects (_Plautdietsch_) now used in many parts 
of the world, and we are happy to have several speakers of it in this 
illustrious round.

All right, Karl-Heinz, hold fast, un hold Di fuchtig!
Reinhard/Ron

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