LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.27 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 27.JUL.2005 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.27 (06) [E]


Does west brabant really have this sjl- etc? Here in Antwerp it's not found, 
and also more eastern people I know don't use it. Well, nowadays it's found 
in Antwerp, but only among youth, seems to be trendy or something. Probably 
dialectless people that want to devellop their own non-standard language 
variant or something.
Zandvliet tends to it, but in general the s and z here sound already close 
to sh and zh, I call it "suizend" but dunno in English. So sl and st etc 
don't differ from other s's.

Just watched the series Matroesjka's on dvd, it's a series mainly in 
Antwerpian dialect (which was also on tv a while ago).
Even one as unknowledged as I discovered a lot of mistakes, but it are 
mistakes that even a lot of the more dialectical speakers nowadays make... 
and the actors are of course mainly not antwerpish speaking (I think) so 
it's a good try anyway.
They always use kon(ne) for "could" instead of kost(e), and ebbe for emme 
(to have). They also seemed to be afraid to contract the diphthongs (aai > e 
and oai > ö) in many closed or unstressed syllables, as is usually done. But 
in general I enjoyed the way of talking.

I don't know if the other Brabanders here have seen the series but if so, 
how understandable was it? (hiphiphurray they didn't subtitle it so everyone 
was forced to do his best to understand =) )

Greetings and good night.

Diederik Masure

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Diederik (above):

> Zandvliet tends to it, but in general the s and z here sound already
> close to sh and zh, I call it "suizend" but dunno in English. So sl
> and st etc don't differ from other s's.

German friends of mine simply call it _nuscheln_.*  ;-)  The tip of the 
tongue is place onto the alveolar ridge farther back than for /s/ but not as 
far back as for /S/ ("sh").  This pronunciation is common and usually 
limited to language varieties that do not have the /S/ ("sh") sound, thus 
have more room for the /s/ to move since there is no danger of mistaking it 
for /S/ ("sh").  While not all speakers have it, it is a fairly striking 
feature for instance in Finnish, Estonian, Greek, European Spanish 
(Castilian) and Dutch.

* A friend who learned Spanish of Spain agreed with my own choice of Latin 
American Spanish, saying about Spaniards, _Die nuscheln immer so!_.  ;-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: By the way, Diederik, it may interest you to know and either amuse or 
appall you that your familiar name Didi has a meaning in Mandarin Chinese: 
弟弟 _dìdi_ 'little brother', 'younger brother' (pronounced pretty much 
alike).  It is also a term of address, occasionally used by someone older 
who is not a brother or sister.  If Chinese people hear or read your name 
they might find it rather "cute."

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