LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.03 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 03.JUN.2005 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.05.03 (01) [D/E]


>Luc Hellinckx wrote:
>
>Re "stieren" for "sturen" (>< "zenden"), the situation is a little
>ambiguous: even though we have no unrounding here (always "sturen",
>and not
>"stieren"), yet you will hear "bestieren" for "besturen". Maybe this
>phenomenon coincides with the _vier_ ~ _vuur_, the _ongehiere_ ~
>_ongehure_
>(~ ungeheuer (G), onguur (D)) and the _dier_ ~ _duur_ (~ teuer (G))
>-
>isogloss. Probably also with the very name for our "Volkssprache"
>_Diets_ ~
>_Duuts_ (~ Deutsch (G))

I don't think this is an unrouding process. The Germanic /eu/ just
developped to either uu (or ui when not followed by an /r/) or to ie. (in
OLF texts there seems to be some umlaut factor, like /iu/ > /uu/ would occur
when i or u (or j or w) follow in the next syllable, whereas /io/ or /ia/
(=without high vowel following) already in late "Old Dutch" are being
written as /ie/.

This distribution is not completely held as such in later Dutch (maybe every
words has one of both vowels generalised over its whole paradigm?).
In general, the southern dialects have more /ie/s, the northern ones /uu/s.
That it's not just unrounding can already be seen in the older texts which I
mentioned, where /ia/ is still a diphthong (/iu/ is sometimes said to be an
[y:] sound though) and thus improbably an unrounding of a monophthong (???).

In Middle Dutch the /ie/ is more frequent, thence the use of Diets for
Middle Dutch. The cultural centre lay first in Flanders then in Brabant
which both had /ie/ in the words you mentioned. Then the Hollandic language
rose, and with it its /uu/ forms.

They even intruded into the dialects that before had /ie/, in my
(Brabantish) village the bycicle-selling guy still says 'dier' for 'duur',
in a guide to the Antwerpian dialect (by 'De Strangers', actually) the word
is mentioned as well. But apart from that bycicle vendor everyone I know
uses an /uu/ in all of the mentioned words. It's even farther disappeared
from use than the /ei/ for /aa/ (ex. peird), which is already quite fading
over here (by persons under 40 only, probably).

But even during the Hollandic expansion, the /ie/ forms still had their
prestige first. At least that's what I read somewhere a few months ago.

I just found a text about it;
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/scho074hist01/scho074hist01_0005.htm (the whole
book, a Historic Grammar of Dutch
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/scho074hist01/index.htm), if you search for
"stieren" you'll get the part of Gmc. /eu/ most quickly.

"Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
English "warp", with the now changed meaning of twist or distort, is
obviously cognate with *werfen*, *werpen* etc (OE weorpan);  Can anybody
think of an English cognate with *gooien*?
Paul "
My etymological dictionary claims it's not used out of our little area (they
probably mean the Netherlands and Low Saxon area).

Heather wrote:
          In the last twenty years 'whom' has practically disappeared from
the
      English
      of the under 40s.


Educated foreigners use it as well, I guess. We've spent several lessons in
school until everyone could use it right. But most of the people with a
feeling for the English language seemed already (=before the lessons) to
know when to use which, and they must have gotten this from anywhere!
I myself usually use both correct as well.

Diederik Masure

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================