LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.09 (09) [E]

Thu Jun 9 21:21:24 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 09.JUN.2005 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.09 (05) [E]

Relevant story I had, was with this South-african architecture student
who had to present his final project for the jury at the Saint-Lucas
Architecture school in Gent (East-Flanders).
I happened to be part of that jury who all were West-Flemish. One should
know that we never use West-Flemish as a standardised language  in this
kind of situations.
We speak "official" Dutch. So this student was afraid (ashamed) to
present his project in South-African, so he wanted to do it in English.
We strongly opposed and urged him to do it in Afrikaans.
We allmost understood 95% as west-flemish speaking people. So the guy
was very happy ( -and at ease -) to have presented this in his mother
tongue, so far away from home.
Must add that his project was splendid.......
I cant repeat enough, that West-Flemish sounds extremely likely to
Afrikaans, more than any other Dutch dialect.

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From: Sean Roach <sroa at loc.gov>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.09 (05) [E]

sure, let me know...

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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.08 (02) [D/E]

Steve,

The subject triggers me all the time when someone brings it up. Ron would be
very disappointed to miss my reaction. Why disappoint him?

Very may people like taking the easy way. In the situation you described it
would be best to speak English. That is what the swimmers probably chose
for.
You miss a lot though, but only if it matters to you.
I find it rather easy to understand and read Afrikaans, but then I am member
of the Lowlands List. I must admit that listening to an Afrikaans speaking
disc jockey (it is all at hand on the internet) is close to impossible. When
the Afrikaanders really go for it among each other, I quit.
An active usage of Afrikaans is more difficult. Once in SA, on behalf of the
group I traveled with, I made the fare well speech to our bus driver. I did
it in the Afrikaans I picked up from the newspapers and in the streets. It
was only passable, but definitely understandable and it was fun to do.

Why take the trouble? Speaking Dutch to Afrikaans speaking persons is the
only real solution. I tried, but it did not always lead to the response I
liked. Question in a hotel: "mag ik sleutel 36 alstublieft?" Answer: "here
you go sir". While at the same time the clerk goes on speaking Afrikaans
with her co-workers.
People seem reluctant to start a conversation in Afrikaans with a stranger,
always English when they address you. During the talking we may switch
language after a few words, an accent, a gut feeling? Don't know how it
works or how it works for SA people.
For the less-interested observer SA may look like a solely English speaking
country. It is just the street names....

Professionals in the tourist industry, especially guides, are more likely to
speak Afrikaans with Dutch people. They are used to it and they make their
language easier for us. In the "volstruis plaas" we visited, "plaas" stayed
"plaas", but "volstruis" became a full "struisvogel" (even with the g in
it).

Since the generation in SA that took Dutch as an obligatory in school are in
their forties or fifties now, the knowledge of Dutch in SA seems to be
fading. Please correct me if I am wrong. Dutch people never knew much of
Afrikaans (they usually call it "Zuid-Afrikaans"). Since 1994 the situation
in changing a bit. Every year more people visit the country. Artists like
Stef Bos and Herman van Veen are regularly performing in SA theaters. Dutch
and SA universities work together (as long as the South Africans do not
close down their Neerlandistiek faculties). Still a lot has to happen. How
likely is it that SA will follow Suriname and join the "Taalunie".. If we
really want and speak more often with each other, mutual intelligibility
will be no problem I guess. But is does not happen overnight.

It just takes time and change of attitude. Afrikaans is many times
considered as a "leuk taaltje". Though not meant that way, the diminutive is
insulting, not taking it seriously. Because of the relatively easy grammar,
at least the lack of verb conjugations make it sound a little childish for
Dutch people. Spelling in Afrikaans is made easier. All the things we had to
train so hard for in school, the Afrikaners simply did away with. This
cannot be a serious language, one might think.

And then the Dutch tour leaders. Ours told us not to try and speak
Afrikaans, "stick to English, Afrikaans is more difficult than you think".
I had a hard time convincing the others differently. Nevertheless we ended
up on an English spoken tour by a local guide in the Voortrekkers Monument.
Does it get more Afrikaans?
Just imagine the guide asking us "do you know what a voortrekker is?" We had
no idea of the English equivalent, so we kept silent. "It is a pioneer", he
said in a tone as if he brought the latest news. So he went on translating
Afrikaans inscription for us. A completely weird situation and our guide had
no clue as to where we came from and that we understood as least as well as
he did.

Our Dutch guide chose the easy way. They guy was a marvelous person, but not
very likely to be a member of the LL list.

Don't I make it just as bad as writing this in English? Yes I do. I am
afraid that you or many others may otherwise not read me. Then what I am
doing all the trouble for. Speaking with Multatuli: "ik wil gelezen worden".

Groetjes,
Fred

PS. A large daily newspaper broke the news that someone is advocating the
use of the Brabantish fare well greeting "houdoe" in the rest of the
country.
so:  houdoe then.

***
I suspect that this subject has been brought up previously in this list, but
since I am a neophyte, I missed out on it! Is it, in fact, true that Dutch
and Afrikaans speakers no longer share much mutual intelligibility regarding
their respective spoken languages? I once read an article about an
Afrikaans-speaking South African swimming team that went to the Netherlands
for a swim meet. The article explained that the South Africans and the Dutch
swimming team against which they were competing ended up using English as
their lingua franca due to the difficulty in understanding each other's
spoken language. I find the whole thing quite interesting! Any comments
would be much appreciated.

Baie dankie en dank u wel!

Groete(n)

Steve

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Fred (above):

> The subject triggers me all the time when someone brings it up.
> Ron would be very disappointed to miss my reaction. Why disappoint him?

No, you definitely don't want to disappoint him.  So now we know how to
entice you our of the koenkeloerer corner.  Good to see you, Fred.

I noticed that false friends abound between Afrikaans and Dutch (and Low
Saxon).

Marcel Bas (an lapsed Lowlander) has compiled a neat list of lexical
differences:
http://roepstem.tripod.com/snaaks.html

Here a few notes to it, bringing Low Saxon (of Germany) into the picture:

AFRIKAANS = DUTCH = LOW SAXON

skommel = schudden = mengel(eyre)n, mischen (schüdden 'pour', schummeln
'cheat')

rot = rat = rot (cf. Rotnest Island, Western Australia)

aardig = anaangenaam, zich niet lekker voelend = aardig ~ orig
('well-behaved', 'strongly', 'quite')

kriek (cricket) = krekel (cricket) = krekel (energetic)

ja(ag) = hasten = jachtern

boetie = broer, ventje = butje (boy, urchin, budgerigar/parakeet)

sens = zeis = says (German _Sense_)

brein = hersenen (van mensen) = bregen ~ breen

kop = hoofd = kop

neul = zeuren = noelen (to dawdle)

sleg = niet goed meer (melk, boter) = slecht

pad = kikker = pad ~ pard (~ pog)

bloot = slechts, ronduit, alleen maar = bloot(s)

kaalvoet = met blote voeten = barbeynd

bottel = vles = bottel ~ buttel ~ buddel

ete = diner, avondeten = eten

teef = slet = tif ~ teyf

klavier = piano = klawyr

trekklavier = accordeon = trekvydel

kombuis = keuken = kombuys (ship's kitchen), koek (house kitchen)

propper = netjes = propper, net

appelkoos = aprikoos = appelkoos, aprikoos

maak = doen = maken ~ doun

vadoek = theedoek = vaardouk

perd = paard = peyrd

hings = hengst = hingst

liewer(s) = eerder, bij voorkeur = leyver(s), beter

middagete = lunch = middag-eten

botter = boter = botter ~ bodder ~ budder

spandeer = uitgeven, doorbrengen = spendeyren (German _spendieren_)

drumpel = drempel = drümpel ~ drempel

druk = stevig omarmen = drükken

prop = kurk, plug = proppen

blameer = de schuld geven aan = blameyren (make a fool of oneself), de
schuld geven (blame)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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