LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.10 (02) [A/D/E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2005.05.09 (01) [E]

"and her Bavarian mother"

Maybe she will learn both sides of the Benrath line. Oops! I didn't say
that!
Ben

----------

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.09 (05) [E]

"between Thackeray and Gelding"
"within an ace of different dialects..."

Where are Thackeray and Gelding? What is an ace in this sense?

Ben

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at simpross.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.10

Dag almal,

Fred, my ondervinding is dat Nederlanders my Afrikaans glad nie goed
verstaan nie, tensy ek stadig en gemoduleerd praat, terwyl ek Standaard
Nederlands wel goed kan verstaan. (Ek reis gereeld na Kanada en die VSA
en vind Amsterdam die ideale verbindingsstad met Toronto en/of Boston).

Ek dink dat jou SA hotel personeel jou vermoë om hulle Afrikaans te kon
verstaan dus dalk betwyfel het.

Daarby is Afrikaners in die verlede beledig as rassiste en apartheid
aanhangers indien hulle Afrikaans in Nederland durf praat het, en dit
het persoonlik met my as 24-jarige in 1975 gebeur. Ook voel baie bruin
Afrikaanssprekendes dis benede hul waardigheid om te erken dat hulle
Afrikaanssprekend is, want dit is konsuis meer 'grand' om Engels te
wees.

Dis 'n tipiese fenomeen in die internasionale hotelbedryf dat toeriste
uit die buiteland in Engels aangespreek word. Ek het dit ook so in
Duitsland en Nederland ervaar, ten spyte daarvan dat ek Duits of
Afrikaans/Nederlands gepraat het.

Groete,
Elsie

>Question in a hotel: "mag ik sleutel 36 alstublieft?" Answer: "here
>you go sir". While at the same time the clerk goes on speaking
Afrikaans
>with her co-workers.

Elsie Zinsser
MHSC Communications

Tel. no: +27 11 358 9188
Facsimile: +27 11 4031821
2nd Floor, Braamfontein Centre,
Jorissen Street,
Private Bag X63, 2016
Johannesburg
http://www.simrac.co.za

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.05.09 (08) [E]

Dag ouk, Luc, un' al Lowlanners,

Du schreevst:

> However, these days more and more people are unable to speak their local
> dialect; rather are they using some sort of "middelspraak" which is
> sometimes labelled a "regiolect". It's an artificial language that has
> filtered out all the juicy bits from a dialect, extending and generalizing
> phonetic and grammatical rules, meanwhile borrowing almost the entire
> standard Dutch vocabulary. Sameness galore. Instead of hundreds of
> dialects
> we now have 5 regiolects...at most.
Woans meenst Du dat? Snackst Du van dat, wat vöör Diin eegen Flaam'sche
Huusdöör is? Ick kann mii meist ne vöörstell'n, wat door, bii Jou, sou'n
Bült verscheeden Munnoorten opp een lütt' Rebeed ween hevvt, tou sülverg'
Tiid und vöör een langer' Stood? No Hunnerten tellt, gänzlich?
Hett dat woll tou kriigen mit de poliit'sche Sünnerheeden, mit de Deelerey
in Joun Eck van Zentral-Middel-Europa?

> Ah well...mathematically speaking, I would dare say that linguistic
> diversity seems to be inversely proportional to the width of a community's
> horizon...in general *s*.
Na- wees vöörzichtig, Mann *s*! Door kannst' bii de Lüüd heel verkeert mit
komen. Wenn ick dat recht begriipen dou- meenst Du an dennen Innen: minseer
de 'Regiolecten', un de Lüüd waard klüftiger (or annersrümm)??!? Denn geiht
dat mit dennen IQ jo woll düchdig no Booven, bii Dii sülvst un bii Diin Lüüd
*s*!!!??? Man- kunn angoon, door is an dennen Innen wat Woorheit an ....
.....

(Ingelsch:)

Hi, Luc, and all Lowlanders,

You wrote:

> However, these days more and more people are unable to speak their local
> dialect; rather are they using some sort of "middelspraak" which is
> sometimes labelled a "regiolect". It's an artificial language that has
> filtered out all the juicy bits from a dialect, extending and generalizing
> phonetic and grammatical rules, meanwhile borrowing almost the entire
> standard Dutch vocabulary. Sameness galore. Instead of hundreds of
> dialects
> we now have 5 regiolects...at most.
How to understand that? Do you speak about facts near the door of your own
house? For me it's hard to imagine that so many ('hundreds' even)
'regiolects' did exist parallel, at the same time and for a certain, longer
period in such a comparatively small area.
Is it perhaps a result of the special political situation over there, at
this area of Central-Middeleurope?

> Ah well...mathematically speaking, I would dare say that linguistic
> diversity seems to be inversely proportional to the width of a community's
> horizon...in general *s*.
Watch your words, man *s*! People could misunderstand you. If I interpret
you correctly, you're meaning at the end: just minimize the number of
'regiolects', and people will become smarter (or reverse)??!!
Obviously the IQ, your own in special and, the same in general too, as far
as you folks up there are regarded, is rising *s*!!?? Could be, there is
some truth with it, really....
.....

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.09 (09) [E]

Moyen, Reynhard,

Du schreyvst:

> I noticed that false friends abound between Afrikaans and Dutch (and Low
> Saxon).
>
> Marcel Bas (an lapsed Lowlander) has compiled a neat list of lexical
> differences:
> http://roepstem.tripod.com/snaaks.html
>
> Here a few notes to it, bringing Low Saxon (of Germany) into the picture:
>
> AFRIKAANS = DUTCH = LOW SAXON
> ...
> aardig = anaangenaam, zich niet lekker voelend = aardig ~ orig
> ('well-behaved', 'strongly', 'quite')

Vöörzichtig: _o[-o-]rig_ is hier G:'urig', E:'very originally'; kunn van de
sylvig etymoloogsche Kant affkomen. In dyssen Fall waard dat _a_
(meyrstentyds??) bybehoulen un' ne tou eyn _o_.

>...
> kriek (cricket) = krekel (cricket) = krekel (energetic)

Ward ouk tou _krall_, _krellen_: G:'aufgedreht', 'voller Tatendrang',
'verdreht' (LS:'verkrellte Jung'='verdreyte Jung', G:'verflixter Bengel');
ouk, no dennen Duden: "kre|gel (bes. nordd. für gesund, munter)".

>...
> sens = zeis = says (German _Sense_)

Dat is hier de LS:_Sissel_ ,(G: 'Sichel'); de G:'Sense' is in uns Rebeyd de
LS:_Ley_

> ...
> pad = kikker = pad ~ pard (~ pog)

Byst ne klouk! Dat is jo heyl interessant- 'opp-pyystert' in dennen
Oorsprong!
Heyt hier meyr LS:'Iitschen', 'Y[l]tschen', ouk 'Üütz'. Ick kenn ouk dennen
'Pog[gen]', man woll oppeyrst van myn Groudvadder uut Ostpreussen.

> vadoek = theedoek = vaardouk
Wat is dat? 'n Wischlappen? Kenn ick amend ne!!???

Allerbest' Groytens

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.09 (09) [E]


Some remarks on:

>AFRIKAANS = DUTCH = LOW SAXON
>
>skommel = schudden = mengel(eyre)n, mischen (schüdden 'pour',
>schummeln
>'cheat')

"schommelen" in Dutch also exists, but then means "to swing". "een schommel"
means "a swing", "nen touter" in my dialect (as a verb then it is
"touteren"). Een schommelstoel for example is a rocking chair.

>rot = rat = rot (cf. Rotnest Island, Western Australia)

>From Amsterdam'ish dialect where rat is also rot (ablaut variation) -> cfr.
landrot = landlubber
Van Dale dictionary even still lists rot = rat (to my surprise)

>aardig = onaangenaam, zich niet lekker voelend = aardig ~ orig
>('well-behaved', 'strongly', 'quite')

aarig is a Kempish/Brabantish word for strange, here pronounced oarig.

>kop = hoofd = kop

kop is also Dutch!!

>sleg = niet goed meer (melk, boter) = slecht

slecht is also good dutch!

>pad = kikker = pad ~ pard (~ pog)
pad = toad in Dutch, still very related

>bloot = slechts, ronduit, alleen maar = bloot(s)

bloot means naked here ;)

>kaalvoet = met blote voeten = barbeynd

Or Dutch barrevoets, blootsvoets

>bottel = vles = bottel ~ buttel ~ buddel

Dutch Fles, not vles

>ete = diner, avondeten = eten

I just say ete(n) as well...

>teef = slet = tif ~ teyf

Teef is used here as well. It's like English bitchl: originally it meant
female dog but now it's the same as "slet"

>klavier = piano = klawyr

klavier is used for a keyboard (of eg a computer or a piano)

>trekklavier = accordeon = trekvydel

Not sure if it's AN but here one can also say trekzak

>kombuis = keuken = kombuys (ship's kitchen), koek (house kitchen)

Dutch also has kombuis for ship's kitchen

>propper = netjes = propper, net

proper is also Dutch, especially in the south
>
>appelkoos = aprikoos = appelkoos, aprikoos

Isn't it aBrikoos in Dutch?
In Zandvliet a perzik or aprikoos are both called appelkoos IIRC

>vadoek = theedoek = vaardouk

vaatdoek sounds not unusual to me

>perd = paard = peyrd

dialectical peird/peerd

>liewer(s) = eerder, bij voorkeur = leyver(s), beter

liever in Dutch as well! This guy really did his best to "forget" the
corresponding words in Dutch and to take unrelated words to prove his point!

>middagete = lunch = middag-eten

i ALWAYS say middagete(n)!!! either in Dialectical or Standard Language'ical
situations


>spandeer = uitgeven, doorbrengen = spendeyren (German _spendieren_)

spenderen

>prop = kurk, plug = proppen

prop and proppen are also Dutch words :p

>blameer = de schuld geven aan = blameyren (make a fool of oneself),
>de
>schuld geven (blame)

"blamage" does exist, though

My point? As said under the entry "liewer", I think you can find a lot of
related words in Dutch as well, even with often the same meaning, if you do
your best (or even if you don't do your best).
Although the intentions of the writer may be pure and honest, either his
knowledge of the Dutch vocabulary may be not sufficient, or he did his best
to avoid those related/identical words just to state a point...
Up to the reader what to think about it.

Diederik Masure

----------

From:  "Marcel Bas" <mrbas_26 at hotmail.com>
Subject:  Sassisch, Afrikaans, Dutch, etc.


Beste Ron,

Het probleem met semantische lijsten zoals
http://roepstem.tripod.com/snaaks
is dat ze weinig overzichtelijk zijn. Daarom heb ik die enorme
alfabetische
lijst op http://roepstem2.tripod.com/snaaks gemaakt. Deze kan steeds
verder
groeien en ik ben nu bezig met de onmogelijke taak bij alle
valse-vriendachtige woorden verwijzingen naar andere woorden te maken.

Zoals bij het lemma 'steen', dat niet hetzelfde betekent als in het
Nederlands. 'Steen' in het Nederlands is Eng.: 'stone, pebble, gem'.
Afrikaans 'steen' = 'brick, gem; (adj.) 'stone'.
Een steen in het Nederlands is in het Afrikaans 'klip'. Enz. Bij het woord
'steen' verwijs ik dan dus naar het woord 'klip' en om meer over 'klip' en
'steen' te vertellen bij het lemma 'klip', verwijs ik weer naar 'steen'
(misschien leg ik het wat verwarrend uit; kijk maar bij
http://roepstem2.tripod.com/snaaks.html


You had some Afrikaans - Low Saxon similarities. I'll make some comments
about those.

"rot = rat = rot (cf. Rotnest Island, Western Australia)"

Funny, because Du. 'rot' (=putrified) then is in Afrikaans 'vrot'
(contraction of Du. 'verrot').

"aardig = anaangenaam, zich niet lekker voelend = aardig ~ orig
('well-behaved', 'strongly', 'quite')"

Also in West-Flanders 'aardig' has a different meaning. I believe
something
like 'unpleasant'.

neul = zeuren = noelen (to dawdle)

Also in Dutch Limburg 'nöle' is known to denote 'to wine'.

bloot = slechts, ronduit, alleen maar = bloot(s)

Cf. German 'bloss'

kaalvoet = met blote voeten = barbeynd

There is a Dutch surname 'bervoets'; baarvoet - bervoet.

bottel = vles = bottel ~ buttel ~ buddel

In Afrikaans there is also voicing of this medial consonant: 'bottel' is
often pronounced as 'boddel' with 'dd' as a flap ('borrel').

propper = netjes = propper, net

Also in Lëtzebuergesch 'propper'.

appelkoos = aprikoos = appelkoos, aprikoos

A typical example of folk etymology of a fruit not native to the Lowlands.

perd = paard = peyrd

Interesting, since 'paard' is not Germanic (> Lat. 'parivarus')

hings = hengst = hingst

In Afrikaans, 'e' and 'i' have often competed: stingel - stengel, ken -
kin,
optel - optillen, enz. Cf. Namakwalandse Afrikaans 'kjenners' instead of
'kinders'.

liewer(s) = eerder, bij voorkeur = leyver(s), beter

Also in Southern Dutch (in 'Flanders')

spandeer = uitgeven, doorbrengen = spendeyren (German _spendieren_)

Also in Dutch 'spenderen'.

druk = stevig omarmen = drükken

Interesting; in Dutch 'to push the button' = 'op de knop drukken'. In
Afrikaans, it is 'Die knop druk', without 'op'. This could be influence
from
English, but in German this also happens: 'Die Taste drucken'.

prop = kurk, plug = proppen

Cf English 'spark plug' = Afr. 'vonkprop'. Du. 'bougie' (from French,
denoting 'candle')

Regards,

Marcel.

Marcel Bas, Nederland
mrbas_26 at hotmail.com
http://roepstem.tripod.com; Heel-Nederlandse Webstek----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Ben, "to shut" for "to turn off" (e.g., "Shut the light!") is common in some
American East Coast English dialects as well.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.05.09 (11) [E]

Inderdaad grappig, Denis, dat jullie apparatenmoordenaars zijn!

Zou dit een overblijfsel zijn uit oude tijden, toen er nog geen radio, TV
of elektrisch licht was?

"Doe't vier dwoad" (doe het vuur dood) klinkt feitelijk niet zo onlogisch.
Vandaaruit naar "doe de lucht dwoad" is maar een kleine stap, het ging
aanvankelijk natuurlijk nog om kaarsen en olielampen, met echte vlammen.
Op een gegeven moment kwam er elektrisch licht, maar de uitdrukking bleef
gelijk. En van het "dood doen" van elektrische lampen naar de radio, en
nog later de televisie, is ook goed voorstelbaar.

Maar eh, zegt men in Kortrijk inmiddels ook al "doe de computer dwoad" ?

Groeten
Ingmar

For the non-Dutch speakers:

Funny indeed, Denis, that you're machine-killers down there!
Maybe a relic from ancient times, when there was no radio, TV or electric
light?

"Kill the fire" doesn't sound so illogical. From there till "kill the
light" is just a small step, at first there were only candles and oil-
lamps, with real flames. Then electric light was invented, but the
expression stayed the same. And from "killing" electric lamps to killing
the radio, and later on the telly, is understandable too.

But ehm, do they already say in modern Kortrijk  "Kill the computer" ?

Ingmar

>Denis Dujardin schreef:
>One other funny feature of West-Flemsish, others do laugh about, is the
>fact that we "kill" a lot of objects, when we put them out of function.
>For example we say "doedde radio dwoad" (doe de radio dood), meaning
>"kill the radio", meaning "officially" turn out the radio!".
>We use it for radio, television, light (doe de lucht dwoad)(kill the
>light...)

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.05.09 (11) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>We use it for radio, television, light (doe de lucht dwoad)(kill the
light...).<

Now that is fascinating because stage hands use the same expression in
English

Kill the house lights i.e. turn the auditorium's lights out.

Heather

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.05.09 (11) [E]

Denis Dujardin wrote:
"One other funny feature of West-Flemish, others do laugh about, is the fact
that we "kill" a lot of objects, when we put them out of function. For
example we say "doedde radio dwoad" (doe de radio dood), meaning "kill the
radio", meaning "officially" turn out the radio!".
We use it for radio, television, light (doe de lucht dwoad) (kill the
light...)."

In many northern England Englishes - including Nottingham English - we say
"dead" for "exceptionally" or "very" - i.e., "ded interestin" for "very
interesting", "ded apie" for "very happy" and "ded od" for "exceptionally
odd". Indeed, I would say it is the standard Nottingham English form for
both "very" and "exceptionally", both of which would be considered Standard
English to NE speakers. It also takes on some of the functions of "really"
as an intensifier - i.e., "I'm really annoyed with you" is "am ded enojd wi
juuw". "It was a really good day" is "It wo ra ded gud dee." (Those of you
who dislike my transcription method will have to struggle on.)

I do not know where this use of "dead" comes from, and if I was not a native
NE speaker I would find it dead odd.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Welcome back, Marcel!  Great to "see" you again!  Obviously, it wasn't I who
kicked you out; it was the server, probably because it couldn't deliver to
your address for a certain number of days.  (I wouldn't do that unless your
behavior is grossly improper and I gave you plenty of prior warning.
Please, everyone, remember this!  If you get cut off, write to me, either at
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net or at sassisch at yahoo.com, NOT AT ANY OTHER ADDRESS
PLEASE.)

> In Afrikaans, 'e' and 'i' have often competed: stingel - stengel, ken -
> kin,
> optel - optillen, enz. Cf. Namakwalandse Afrikaans 'kjenners' instead of
> 'kinders'.

Same thing in Low Saxon.  It depends on the dialect ("mid vowel dialects" vs
"high vowel dialects"); e.g., _kennen_ ~ _kinnen_, _denken_ ~ _dinken_,
_stengel_ ~ _stingel_, ... but not across the board, only those words that
in Dutch and German have /e/ there.  (So it's really a case of "raising"
dialects.)  This applies also to rounded vowels; e.g., _op_ ~ _up_.

Jonny (baven):

> > aardig = anaangenaam, zich niet lekker voelend = aardig ~ orig
> > ('well-behaved', 'strongly', 'quite')
>
> Vöörzichtig: _o[-o-]rig_ is hier G:'urig', E:'very originally'; kunn van
> de
> sylvig etymoloogsche Kant affkomen. In dyssen Fall waard dat _a_
> (meyrstentyds??) bybehoulen un' ne tou eyn _o_.

Ja, leyve Jonny.  Dat was 'n veler.  Ik har "oorrich" or beter "aarrig" (<
aardig) schreven hebben.
> > vadoek = theedoek = vaardouk
> Wat is dat? 'n Wischlappen? Kenn ick amend ne!!???

Ja, dat giv 't in 'n paar dialekten, ook in Duytsch (_Fahrtuch_), beduydt
"wisch-lappen" un/or "schört".  Dat hebt sey in 'n paar Slaawsche spraken
vör "schört" up-namen: Russisch фартук _fartuk_, Ukrainsch фартух _fartux_,
Poolsch _fartuch_ (Kaschuubsch _szërtuch_! < Duytsch *_Schürztuch_ + NS
*_schörtdouk_?).

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================