LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.17 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 17.MAR.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From:  "Peter Snepvangers" <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Language and dialects


Hello Reinhard,

I just read your mail on the Lowlanders list and Ingmar's reply regarding a
single orthography for Low Saxon. I have forwarded you this email because
this is a perfect example of how institutions deal with issues or persons
that do not fit with "the way things should be". They just totally ignore
them. I like to request information from time to time but I do not get
replies. I find this ignoring process a better method of maintaining the
norm than governments scaring people or anything else. People just do not
have time or the effort to keep asking for things when the other side just
totally does not enter into dialogue.

I believe you are only partially right in your assessment of the future of
Low Saxon. There is a slow movement or momentum that has been activated by
yourself and many other professional people and people who have a passion
for the language. You are slowly turning our world from a "spectator"
perspective to one we might actually be able to get involved in personally.
I believe at some point in time there probably was a more consistent
orthography as it only seems right to me that all these Saxons and Frisians
running about the northern world prior to the year 775 could understand each
other very well. I also agree with you regarding the Hanseatic period
strengthening this again in the 1200's and 1300's. I am no linguist Reinhard
and may seem a little ignorant on these things and am grateful for
information. One of the truly sad things in history was the christianising
of the Saxon race by "Gods Emperor" Karl der Grosse!!! Punishing people by
death for not getting baptized and forbidding public assemblies seems to be
something repeated over and over in history.

I think you need to create as large a body of work using what you consider
to be an "ideal standard" as it works for Chinese and Arabic. It is a
personal affront for the individual communities in the Netherlands as well
as Germany but that baggage is not there for new speakers in USA, Sweden,
Australia, Italy etc. Who knows, you might even convince some of the
Lowlander locals it is a good thing. You will never achieve a majority vote
from the existing players but you can show the future speakers what it could
have been like for those first Saxons and Frisians who travelled to England
in the 400's and you will definitely create a bright future.

Cheers
Peter Snepvangers

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Snepvangers
To: info at taalunie.org
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:10 PM
Subject: Language and dialects
Hello,
mijn name is Peter Snepvangers and I was wondering if the taalunie has got
any information or resources such as DVD /CD / books on the Limburgs taal.
If possible is there a Limburgs / English dictionary or a Dutch / Limburgs /
English dictionary. Also are there any historical references to the various
dialects of Limburgs available in either dutch or English. Dank U Wel

Peter Snepvangers
Sydney, Australia
snepvangers at optushome.com.au



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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Folks,

I hope you have read the posting above from Peter, one of my favorite
fellow-Lowlands-born-and-raised-Australians.  Peter sent it to me privately,
but I asked if I could post it, and he agreed.  I think it brings out
discussion points that are potentially of interest to the List.

Peter, I think you have a valid point in suspecting that ignoring is an
actual strategy that tends to be used by institutions, particularly by
European institutions, when it comes to "pesky customers," which lumps
together the mentally imbalanced and those that dare ask uncomfortable
questions or make potentially threatening requests, thus all treated as the
"lunatic fringe." My theory is that this is a convenient age-old European,
or better Eurasian, tradition, and my prediction is that it will soon have
to fade away in the process of globalization.

Rather than just "ignoring" (which could be interpreted variously), I'd
describe it by means of the German phrase _links liegen lassen_ (literally
"to leave (lying) on the left," supposedly originally in sorting, left being
the scrap heap, the throw-away stuff).

As those of you who have been on this list a while are aware, I approve of
no bashing, bashing of any nathinality, ethnicity, country or whatever.
This is no bashing.  As a three-continent person that has been around the
block a couple of times or ten, I have gained a bit of insight into what I
think is a matter of socio-political traditions.  When I grew up and lived
as a young adult in Europe, and when I later lived in Asia, it never came as
a surprise to me that my requests or complaints to authorities and
institutions remained unanswered.  My expectations have changed since I
started living in Australia and the United States, countries that gave me
the sense that I as an individual have value, can indeed make a difference
and can participate in processes rather than only be the recipient, the one
who puts up with decisions from on high, the beneficiary or the victim.  I
believe this is because both these countries, and probably also Canada, have
a tradition of rejecting the hierarchical attitudes of ancestral Eurasia. At
least they go through the motions of being egalitarian.  This comes with
obligations, including legal obligations.  Especially here in the United
States, letters to authorities or companies rarely are unanswered if for no
other reason than for legal ones, "liability management."  Even if you get
flipped off, at least you get it in writing.  This makes it easier for you
as an individual to build a case, and a paper trail of irresponsibility can
eventually bite a department of company in the behind.  (This necessitates
on their part the cultivation of the art of officially responding without
really saying anything or to seem to agree while disagreeing ...)

I am not quite sure where today's Britain stands in this regard.  It so
happens that I tested it yesterday by writing to the BBC (which, by the way,
I hold in fairly high regard as far as government-funded media go).  I
pointed out that in their web presentation "Language across Europe"
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/european_languages/countries/) Low Saxon is
missing under "Gemany" and "Netherlands," and that Scots is missing under
"United Kingdom."  I was pleased to find a check box giving you the option
of requesting a reply.  It remains to be seen if the requested reply will be
forthcoming and what it will say.

Peter, mate, thanks for sharing your opinion, and thanks for your words of
encouragement!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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