LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.03.22 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAR.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.03.21 (01) [E]

Hi, Lowlanners,

Mike Wintzer posted:

> Please fill me in, Peter, on the significance of this
> your following sentence:
>
> QUOTE:
> ...all these Saxons and Frisians
> running about the northern world prior to the year 775 could understand
> each
> other very well.
> END QUOTE
>
> Why would 775 mark the end of the intercomprehensibility of Saxon
> and Frisian? That date is suspiciously close to the massacre of Verden,
> and falls into the period where the Franconisation of continental Saxon
> began. Does it have anything to do with it? What is it with 775?
> Thanks beforehand for your tutoring!
> Greeting to all, Mike Wintzer

There was no answer until now. I'm, too, very much interested in this topic
and also would like to ask Peter, or anyone else, for some more information
about it.

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

If anything, shouldn't Frankish subjugation of the Saxons by Charlemagne not
have resulted in Frankish influences on Saxon and thus to have brought Old
Saxon and Old Franconian closer together?

When you study Old Saxon you notice many Ingveonisms that in Modern Low
Saxon are lost; e.g., _kûth_, now non-Inveonic _künd_ 'known' (=
English/Scots "couth" 'proper' = "as is known" < Old English _cûð_ 'known').
It may also explain variation between Ingveonic and non-Ingveonic forms in
Modern Low Saxon, such as _us_ ~ _uns_ 'us', 'our'.  Furthermore, it may
explain the increased use of certain words already in (post-Verden?) Old
Saxon, such as _himil_ in competition with (older?) _hevan_, where _hevan_
came to denote mostly 'sky' and _himil_ developed a tendency toward taking
on the (post-Christianization?) religious connotation 'heaven', as still
tends to be the case with Modern Low Saxon _heven_ vs _himmel_.

At least in the early days of Frankish rule there seemed to have been a
modicum of language rights, as shown in extant legal documents stating that
a defendant before a judge had the right to use his or her own language, be
it Frankish, Saxon or Slavonic.  Furthermore, Saxon continued to be used in
the north and then came to flourish during the period of the Hanseatic
Trading League.  However, Frankish influence was no doubt inevitable in the
long run, resulting in a degree of alienation of Saxon from its British
offshoot English.

Remember that pre-Christian Saxons totally rejected and dispised Frankish
imperialism that came with Christian "proselytizing with the sword," that
the Saxons, who took pride in their loosely republican independence, saw the
Franks as having sold out to the Romans whom the Saxons had sent packing
earlier.  Had Charlemagne not eventually defeated the Saxons by hook or by
crook, my guess is that Saxon may have developed more independently,
possibly in its own country.  Of course, its proximity to English and Scots
would have suffered in any event, on account of the French-speaking Norman
conquest of Britain.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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