LL-L "Phonology" 2005.03.30 (04) [E]

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.03.29 (03) [E]

Ron: ....similar to "conservative" Dutch pronunciation of <ui>... ?

>>>That's the normal Standard and colloquial Dutch pronunciation.
However there are Dutch people, mostly in the Randstad area (The Hague,
Rotterdam, Amsterdam etc) who alter all diphthonghs and make them a
bit 'wider', but fortunately that doesn't make the Standard pronunciation
conservative, most Dutch and Flemish pronounce <ui> 'correctly'.

Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Kevin,
>
>I think you could be onto something.  I assume that what Jonny writes with
><eu> is [O.I] (similar to "oy" in "boy"), which in other dialects would be
><?t; [9.I] (similar to "conservative" Dutch pronunciation of <ui>), AS
><oy> for both.
>
>N.B.: Jonny's dialect regularly realizes /oy/ as [O.I] (which is also
>typical of most Lower Elbe dialects) and /ei/ as [a.I] (as in "aisle,"
>which is a feature found in numerous groups, including the dialects of
>Groningen, where it tends to be written <aai>).  Alternatives to this are
>[9.I] and [E.I] ~ [e.I] (as in "wait") respectively.

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From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.03.29 (01) [E]

In response to Ron's
> ... call for the creation of a comprehensive IPA guide
> that incorporates additional information for the blind.

Lest we attempt to reinvent the wheel, perhaps you would appreciate the
following site:

http://www.langmaker.com/db/alp_mathipabraille.htm

I think this is more along the lines of a proposal than anything that is
actually used.

A question on this very question was made recently on Linguist-List, and the
summary of responses to the query can be found at:

http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/linguist/issues/16/16-770.html

****

Also, re: Waki Yasuji's comment that
> Most of
> dictionaries of foreign languages publisshed in Japan indicate how to read
> all words listed in them by using the international phonetic alphabet.

my comment, as someone who has taught Russian at various Japanese
universities over the past dozen or so years and spent many an hour
searching for a useable text and dictionary to assign my students, is: ALAS,
would that this were so! Most (90% if not more) intro texts for Russian have
katakana pronunication over the text for at least the first 10 lessons (and
often throughout the book).

For those unversed, katakana is the Japanese syllabary used largely for
representing foreign words. As a syllabary it is totally incapable (at least
unless greatly modified) of indicating consonant clusters and
syllable/word-final consonants (of which Russian is rife), ... and as a
JAPANESE syllabary incapable (again unless greatly modified) of indicating
the difference not only between "r" and "l" but for Russian also the
difference between "hard" r and "soft" r, among many other Russian sounds it
is incapable of accurately representing. Forget "human lights" and such
humorous mispronunciations; what we get is total and utter non-sense!

All this goes along way towards instilling a totally incomprehensible
pronunciation in the students. Maybe it's true of students everywhere, but
it's particulary true of Japanese students: if it comes to believing what a
book says something should be pronounced like and what you can hear with
your own ears, they'll go with the book every time!

(The presence of katakana pronunciation guides above ALL the Russian in some
texts also leads to something else I experienced the first day in my second
year Russian class: NONE of the students could read ANY cyrillic!)

So, I always choose a text with NO katakana (hard to find, but I have
managed ... and the 2 I have found are also linguistically more sound in
other ways as well).

But as for dictionaries I have given up (the ones with non-katakana
pronunciation guides are NOT for beginners and are prohibitously expensive
here anyway, and no student taking Russian just to fulfill a language
requirement is going to buy one) and gone with one with katakana ... but
assigned it as optional. As an example of it's pronunciation guide (fairly
representative of katakana guides to Russian pronunciation found in all
other works as well), the common Russian greeting Здравствуйте,
which SHOULD be pronounced something between [zdra(f)stvujt'e] (formal) and
[zdras't'e] (informal) comes out as ズドラーストヴィチェ which would be
transcribed as [zudora:sutoviče]. QUITE a difference!

Mike Morgan
KCUFS

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ingmar (above):

> Ron: ....similar to "conservative" Dutch pronunciation of <ui>... ?

Yeah, really!  I wonder what possessed me.  The sound I had in mind is
closer to that in French _oeil_ 'eye' and _feuille_ 'leaf'.

Mike (above):

> Lest we attempt to reinvent the wheel, perhaps you would appreciate the
> following site:
>
> http://www.langmaker.com/db/alp_mathipabraille.htm

Thanks, Mike.  Impressive!  But let's put it to the test and ask our Ben if
this does anything for him.  I have a feeling an IPA guide for the blind
still needs to be compiled, and this information could be used in it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
(back in Seattle, somewhere between sleepy and travel-worn)

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