LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.04 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 04.MAY.2005 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: D.L. MacLaughlan-Dumes <dmac at physics.ucla.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.04 (06) [E]

At 08:51 AM 5/4/2005 -0700, Thomas Byro wrote:

>From: Thomas Byro <greenherring at gmail.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.03 (06) [E]
>
>I just read a brief biographical sketch by Harpo Marx, recounting his
>childhood on the Eastside of NY.  He mentioned that his father, who
>was born near Metz, would constantly invite people over for dinner,
>people who were family.  This he defined as anyone who spoke
>Plattdeutsch.  I wonder what language this was though? I found a
>French website which is dedicated to the preservation of the "Platt"
>language which featured a map showing "Platt" still being spoken in a
>broad band reaching from the Belgian border to just West and South of
>Verdun, where it curved sharply toward the German border.  Is this
>language a variant on Flemish?

I've wondered this as well. Samuel Marx, the family patriarch, was also
known as "Frenchie" Marx to his family because of his allegedly-French
roots, yet the language they spoke in the old country was Plattdeutch.

If someone has more thoughts on this I'd be interested.

Regards,
D. [Devorah]

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hello, Devorah, and welcome among the verbal Lowlanders!  It is nice to
witness your debut.

As I said in response to Tom's question, I was fairly sure that we were not
talking about either Low Saxon or Low Franconian (for which _Platt_ ~ _plat_
are used most often) but about a Lorraine dialect of German.

Goes to show you where premature, flimsily based assumptions will lead you
...

I'm now willing to reconsider this because I am not sure where Simon/Samuel
(Yiddish Shimen > Shmuel) Marx was raised.  Apparently he left Germany for
Lorraine to avoid conscription, but he, despite being called "Frenchy," was
proud of his "German" heritage and was delighted when his neighbors in
Yorkville turned out to speak "Plattdeutsch."

So, this may indeed be "Low German," most likely Low Saxon, if Harpo's
father had come from Northern Germany.  Marx is definitely a common Jewish
surname in Germany.  In fact, we have a bunch of Marx people married into my
family who are of Jewish descent but (barely) sleazed by during the Nazi era
because there was just the right number of generations between them and
their latest decalred Jewish ancestor.  Yes, some of them did speak Low
Saxon.

[...]

Hah!  Stop press!  I found the answer!  Yippee!  Samuel Marx was born and
raised (until age 15) in ... Dorum!  Dorum is a North Sea resort town in the
Land Wursten, state of Lower Saxony, so not far from our Jonny's old
stomping ground ...  I even spent several weeks of summer camp in the very
place!  It's a nice and verrry, verrry maritime rural place, not far south
of Cuxhaven, in a formerly Frisian area (as you can tell by the name with
"-um").
http://www.nordseequelle.de/karte.htm
http://www.sglandwursten.de/

Woa!  Sam was one of us!  And that makes Harpo a Lowlander too!

So now that I had a little debate with myself I conclude that this
_Plattdeutsch_ thing (though I hate the name) was the real MacCoy.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.04 (06) [E]

Hi James,

I don't think Dalecarlia can be considered part of the Lowlands,
seeing as it's in Scandinavia.

But Dalecarlian is a Germanic language, so I hope that while an entire
discussion on Dalecarlian might not be appropriate for the list, a
single informative message might be OK.

Dalecarlian is spoken in south-central rural Sweden, in the province
(landskap) of Dalecarlia (also known as Dalarna). It is basically an
insular North Germanic language, ie it preserves many features of Old
Norse similar to Icelandic and Faroese that have been lost in the
other languages of the mainland, but it is peculiar in that it is
spoken in the middle of Sweden.

For example:
Dalecarlian: Bókiñ ir â bórðiñu.
Swedish: Boken är på bordet. (the book is on the table)

or

Dalecarlian: Glaymmi ikki!
Swedish: Glöm inte!
Faroese: Gloym ikki! (don't forget)

and a longer example: "Góð kveld! Met namn ir Britta Östman. Ig ir
systir min Annu. Hoñ byggir í Kallser, men ig byggir í Rót. Kallser og
Rót irå tveir býer í Øfdaliñum. Dalskum állteit þar rákums, men heima
nest óss svenskum vįð."

As you can see, it looks (and sounds) more like Icelandic and Faroese
than Swedish.

Yet very few have heard of it.

Mark

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