LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.17 (07) [A/D/E/F]

Tue May 17 21:21:19 UTC 2005

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.17 (03) [E/F]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Low Saxon is a mixed bag in that certain words show ingveonic
> n-deletion in
> certain words in certain dialects while other dialects do not; e.g.,
> the
> word for 'us' or 'our':
>
> us ~ uns
>
> I'm bidialectal in that I say _us_ in "Generalized North Saxon" but
> _uns_ in
> Hamburg dialect.
>
> However, other words consistently show n-deletion in all dialects;
> e.g.,
>
> gous 'goose' (cf. Germ. _Gans_)
> (goyse >) goys' 'geese' (cf. Germ. _Gänse_)

Grappich. De measte dialekten yn Nederlân dy't ik kin, hewwe "gans",
"gaans" of soks.
Dit kin wol ynfloed út 'e standerttaal wei wêze,  fansels.

> vyv 'five' (cf. Germ. _fünf_)

En dit het it Nederlânsk ek : "vijf".  Allyksa it Sieuwsk en it
Limboarchsk.

> And then there are words that never show n-deletion in any dialect;
> e.g.,
>
> (ander >) anner 'other' (cf. Eng. "other")
Dit is no "oar" < Aldfr. "other"

> kün(d) 'aware', 'known' (cf. Eng./Sc. "couth")

Dit is no útstoarn. (al liend yn "kunde" (Nl . kennis,  as persoan),
oankundigje (Nl aankondigen, _notify_)).
Mar it Molkwarders hie noch "kaaie" (leedomseze, _notify the villagers
of a death_)
dat nei alle gedachten út Aldrfrysk *kêtha komt. En dit út in omlûde
foarm fan "*kunthian".
Ek de basis fan Ingelsk "to kythe", tinkt my.

> mun(d) 'mouth' (now rare; cf. Eng. "mouth")

No "mûle", mar yn toponimen "mou(we)" < *mûtha (de -th- wurdt dus j of
e, ôfhinklik fan it lûd derfoar)
It Noardfrysk hat noch foarmen as "müs" fan dizze stam.
ek yn Nederlânske kunstnammen as "Muiden", "Arnemuiden" esfh.

> kin(d) 'child' (cf. Eng. "kith")

Is dit de basis fan "kid" ?

It Frysk hat rûnom ôflate foarmen fan "bern".

In oare foarm: "oes" < *ans, in oesdrip is in "dakgoot" (yn it Nl.).
Dizze foarm skynt ek wol Saksysk noch foar te kommen.
Ik miende yn Drinte. Itselde wurd sit yn 'e útdrukking "der sitte
heakken en oezen oan" (Nl haken en ogen).

> Hmmm ... does this mean that it didn't apply before /ð/ (> /d/)?!
> Interesting!

Miskjin hewwe der "weagen" west, en gie it net allegearre tagelyk....

> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.17 (03) [E/F]

Hi, Ron,

you wrote:

> Hmmm ... does this mean that it didn't apply before /ð/ (> /d/)?!

What about 'Maand'/'Mound' (moon)??

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Mark en Elsie,

_Kaaiings_ zijn wellicht hetzelfde als wat in het Brabants _kååkes_ genoemd
worden, dit is het meervoud van het verkleinwoord van _kaai_ < kade, maar
met de betekenis 'stukje gebraden vet'. _kaai_ is een gewestelijke vorm van
het (meer) algemeen Nederlands _kaan_ (met dezelfde betekenis).

Hierna kan je de etymologie van "De Vries" lezen:

kaan: znw. v. 'stukje gebraden vet', sedert Kiliaen: kaen 'walvisvet' naast
kaeye, kaede, kaeyen 'stukje gebraden vet, kaantje.' Waarschijnlijk is kaan
dus een mv.-vorm van kade, vlg. mnl. cade 'korstje geroosterd vet' (ook caen
'walvisvet'), nnl. dial. kaai (Antw.), kooi (N. Brab.), kô (Kampen).
De herkomst van het nl. woord is onbekend. Opmerkelijk is mnd. kade 'kaan,
quod remanet in patella', waardoor men verband met kaam zou kunnen
vermoeden; maar in dit woord is geen d uitgevallen. Beide woorden zin echter
wel in contact met elkaar gekomen, vlg. Grootaers LB 21, 1929, 73-91.
Volgens J.L. Pauwels, die samen met Grootaers een taalkaart voor de
Zuidelijke Nederl. tekende, is kaan de meervoudsvorm van kâ, daarnaast kaai
met de mv. vorm kajen. In Vlaanderen staan naast elkander de verkleinvormen
kaantjes en kaaikes; in West-Vlaanderen is daardoor het oudere woord
krakeling verdrongen. Een taalkaart voor dit woord, waarop ook het voorkomen
van grieve, greven e.a. vormen is opgetekend, van W.G. Rensink, Taalatlas
afl. 6, 10. - Het woord is door kolonisten ook naar de Mark in Brandenburg
verplant, waar het in de oude vorm kade bewaard is (vgl. Teuchert
Sprachreste 287).

Ook nog dit: in mijn (Brabants) dialect zegt men dat voedsel _oëtgekååd és_,
(~ uitgekaaid is) als het te langdurig verhit is geweest zodat het heel
droog, taai en smakeloos wordt (vooral van vlees). Of dit werkwoord "kaaien"
nu aan de basis ligt van _kaaikes_, of omgekeerd, of dat het er niets mee te
maken heeft, moet ik in het midden laten.

Smakelijk!

Luc Hellinckx

---------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.16 (07) [A/E]

<Fossick> from <versoek>, which  looks very much like Dutch <verzoek>
[V at r"zuk] = request, H. German <Versuch> = attempt.
If <fossick> is derived from <versoek>, the pronunciation of the latter
would rather be Eastern or Southern Dutch [V at r"zy:k], with umlaut, which
could give the <i> in fossick.

Western Dutch dialects, i.e. Holland, Zeeland and Flanders and Standard
Dutch (and Afrikaanders), don't have umlaut of long vowels, unlike all
other modern Germanic languages. North Eastern (LS), Eastern (Utrecht,
Gelderland) and South Eastern Dutch (Brabant, Limburg) do have umlaut,
as well as Frisian. Something striking is that in the North in Groningen
the Westernmost dialects, bordering to Westlauwers Frisian, lack umlaut
too. Geographically, the nearest Dutch dialect of those dialects is Noord
Holland West Frisian Dutch, which doesn't have umlaut too, so we could say
that the Frisian language proper is an umlaut-enclave between both.

This supports my theory that Westlauwers Frisian (=Friesland Frisian) is
actually an immigrant language from the East, say coming from the same
parts in North-western Germany originally as Anglo-Saxon, because it
doesn't have the expected connection to the surrounding dialects in many
ways. I believe in Ancient Friesland a different type of Frisians were
living, that weren't the direct ancestors of the present day inhabitants
of Friesland, whose forefathers came from the East. Maybe Modern Frisian
is even the continuation of Old Saxon rather than of Old Frisian (?)
I think that in the Western Netherlands, including Friesland, an
<Ingvaeonic> language closely related to Frisian but different from it was
spoken.

Ingmar

>From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.16 (02) [E]
>
>Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
>"I'd never associated "fossick" with "versoek" before, though it seems
>pretty clear now you mention it! Thanks for that."
>
>If I may put on my Cornish hat here: _fossick_ is well known in Australian
>and New Zealand English and it derives from (still current) Cornish
English
>_fossick_ meaning "to scrabble for things". Originally it referred to a
>method in mining, but then generalised to mean running one's fingers
through
>places in a search (i.e., in a drawer for a tie, in a cupboard for
something
>particular).
>
>It may have a relationship to _versoek_ in the widest sense, but it's well
>known as Cornish English.
>
>Go raibh maith agat,
>
>Criostóir.
>
>----------
>
>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.16 (02) [E]
>
>Dear Luc, Criostóir, Lllistees
>Such a common, daily used word like 'us' coming from Dutch, West-Flemish
>or other foreign influences seems rather strange to me, although it is
>possible of course. But 'us' is a perfect English pronoun too, albeit not
>a possessive one, and I believe it to be much more plausible to be derived
>from the indigenous 'us'. Mixing up pronouns happens a lot, think of 'you'
>where historically there was a divergence between 'ye' and 'you' (and
>thou, thee). In Stellingwarven Low Saxon and some Groningen Low Saxon
>dialects, 'jow' [jou] or 'joe' [ju:] has replaced other second person
>pronouns as well - like 'ie' [i:] or 'jie' [ji:] (like West Lauwers
>Frisian 'jo' - polite/formal sec pers pronoun) but I wouldn't dare to
>claim English influence here, because of the perfect agreement.
>
>Btw, both English and Dutch gave up 'thou', 'du' etc
>for 'you', 'gij', 'jij', 'u'. I always assumed this was because of
>courtesy, probl. some kind of influence of French 'vous', although it has
>preserved 'tu' of course, so that wouldn't make so much sense...

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.15 (05) [E/Yiddish]

Dear Ron,

in some of your mails you used the abbreviation *cf.*, for example here:

> kibitz <  קיבעצען kibetsn (cf. German _kiebitzen_ < _Kiebitz_ 'lapwing')
> to offer unwanted advice, e.g. to someone playing cards; to converse idly
What does it stand for- 'coming from'?

BTW: I use to interprete 'kiebitzen' as: 'to look into someones cards',
(specially in playing cards!), by a person just being spectator, not himself
engaged in the game.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi, all,

today I made some investigations about the kingdom of Mercia, and I found
the word 'thegn'.
Is it perhaps related to G: 'Degen', an what is its exact meaning?

Thanks for any answer.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.17

Haai almal,

Mark, natuurlik sal jy nie kaaiings in jou woordeboek kry nie want dis
kaiings :)
Herkoms uit Nederlands:
Enkelvoud - kaan/kade
Meervoud - kaaien

Trümpelmann/Erbe se Duits-Afrikaanse woordeboek gee die Duits aan
as "Grieben".

Ja, bobaas kos!

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser
> But the spelling in Afrikaans, of course, is bye'korf'; rather than
> "corf",  y'all.
Dankie, Elsie, vir die regstelling, en jammer oor die fout. BTW, Kaaiings
smaak darem lekker nê! Weet jy, die woord kom nie in my woordeboek voor nie!

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.05.17 (03) [E/F]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>(ander >) anner 'other' (cf. Eng. "other")
kün(d) 'aware', 'known' (cf. Eng./Sc. "couth")
mun(d) 'mouth' (now rare; cf. Eng. "mouth")
kin(d) 'child' (cf. Eng. "kith")<

Ron

Are you saying that NONE of these lose the 'n' in any N German dialect?

Heather

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henno (benoarden):

> > gous 'goose' (cf. Germ. _Gans_)
> > (goyse >) goys' 'geese' (cf. Germ. _Gänse_)
>
> Grappich. De measte dialekten yn Nederlân dy't ik kin, hewwe "gans",
> "gaans" of soks.
> Dit kin wol ynfloed út 'e standerttaal wei wêze,  fansels.

Hah?! "Standerttaal"?!  Standert-Nederlânsk?

> > kin(d) 'child' (cf. Eng. "kith")
>
> Is dit de basis fan "kid" ?

Dit is besibbe, Middeningelsk út Noardisk _kið_, moar alfêst _cýððu_ ~
_cýðð_ ~ _cýð_ in Oaldingelsk foar _kith_.

> > mun(d) 'mouth' (now rare; cf. Eng. "mouth")
>
> No "mûle",

No ek _muul_ in't Nedersaksisk, toponiemsk _münden_ ~ _münnen_.

Jonny (above):

> What about 'Maand'/'Mound' (moon)??

Well, the rule doesn't apply in English, Scots and Frisian either, and they
are clearly ingveonic: E. "moon" / "month", S. _muin_ / _month_, W.F.
_moanne_ / _moanne_.
OE _mona_ / _monðe_, OF _môna_ / _mônath_, OS _mâno_ / _mânuth_, OG _mâno_ /
_mânod_, ON _máni_ / _ mánuðr_.
So the rule did not apply because there was an intervening vowel.  Hah!

Heather (also above):

> Ron
>
> Are you saying that NONE of these lose the 'n' in any N German dialect?

No, I wouldn't go as far as all that at this point, Heather.  I do feel it
bears further investigation, though.  Wouldn't you agree?  If anyone could
come up with a representative list of such Ingveonisms we could run a check.

Jonny again:

> > kibitz <  קיבעצען kibetsn (cf. German _kiebitzen_ < _Kiebitz_ 'lapwing')
> > to offer unwanted advice, e.g. to someone playing cards; to converse
> > idly
> What does it stand for- 'coming from'?

No, "compare" (< Latin _conferere_).

> BTW: I use to interprete 'kiebitzen' as: 'to look into someones cards',
> (specially in playing cards!), by a person just being spectator, not
> himself
> engaged in the game.

Yes, it's just that Yiddish has extended this, as it is prone to do (which
is why it's so fascinating, expecially from a German angle).  I don't have
Weinreich's dictionary here, but here is what an excellent new online
Yiddish dictionary (http://www.yiddishdictionaryonline.com/) says about
קיביצער _kibitser_.
(I'm not sure, but I think it's by Raphael Finkel/Refoyl Finkl, one of my
favorite fellow web-lingoistas-cum-poetas -- I wonder if he remembers me.)

<quote>
onlooker; one who looks on and often offers unwanted advice or comments,
especially at a card game; broadly : one who offers opinions
</quote>

In English the meaning seems to have shifted somewhat, perhaps has been
broadened, sometimes being used to denote people that comment on other
people's business.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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