LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.23 (03) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.22 (02) [E/German]

Sandy wrote:
"Ingmar presents Middelsprake as if it could be a lingua franca for the
list, but when chllenged to make it more friendly to insular varieties,
dismisses it as merely a personal interest of his. Middelsprake is the most
divisive element I have ever seen on this list..."

Thanks, Sandy, for giving me so much credit, I feel really honoured, you
know, that you believe I am able to divide this beautiful List of ours.
I always thought it were your mailings about Scots and BSL, but it's really
great of you to let me win.

Btw I don't remeber having presented Middelsprake as a Lingua Franca for
this list, please tell me where I did. And I also think that MS is already
pretty "friendly" to insular varieties, English is a very important element
of its basis. I even think MS would be the Germanic language that a mono-
English speaker would understand most of without having learned it before.
But would it somehow be possible it's not the language that irritates you,
but the creator?

Ingmar

>Sandy Fleming:
>I'm not the least bit surprised that Gabriel and Ingmar are irked at
>English being a core language and German not. Gabriel often flaunts her
>tremendous language abilities but do we ever see her Low Saxon? Ingmar
>presents Middelsprake as if it could be a lingua franca for the list, but
>when chllenged to make it more friendly to insular varieties, dismisses it
>as merely a personal interest of his. Middelsprake is the most divisive
>element I have ever seen on this list.

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.22 (02) [E/German]

Ingmar:
> Ron, Gabriele, I hope I didn't cause a "civil war" here by mentioning the
> possibilities or impossibilities of German as a Lowlands List Langage!

Never fear, we're far from that (as long as certain people with certain
racist/ethnicist views do not resurface, but they haven't for a long time).
If I really didn't like the ideas behind this list, why would I be on it?
But it is a discussion list, not a we-all-agree-anyway-on everything group
hug list. I just thought the time had come to rediscuss certain standpoints,
and to give Ron another chance to state his intentions, whether good or
bad... :-)

I wrote another message explaining that my main concern was not the
exclusion of German, but the standardization of Lower Saxon (so far, it has
not appeared on the list). This is a very emotional subject (in general, I
mean, not just to me), because most speakers would probably greatly object
to having their own, private, "home" language standardized and adapted in
any way. I find it amazing, like Jonny said, that there are barely any
native speakers of Lower Saxon on a list that deals with it in such detail,
you can count them on one hand - and most flavours are actually missing:
Heide, Solling, Harz, Mecklenburg, Weserbergland, and more - not to mention
local dialects on a smaller scale.

Sandy, you never see my Platt because I no longer have any (active, that
is). My first language is German, and I have been heavily exposed to several
different flavours of Platt as a child (see my Lowlands intro). I used to be
quite fluent and even used it to be understood in the Netherlands as a
teenager (which worked quite well). But ever since I actually learned Dutch,
that is what comes out when I try to speak Lower Saxon. I still speak Platt
to myself in my head quite often, but that is more a kind of "Lower Saxon
Middelsprake", with me as the only speaker. I think I once posted in Platt,
which was a bit distorted and deliberately exaggerated, but nobody rose to
the bait... and, by the way, I am certainly not "irked" that German is not a
core language of the list, even when I suggest that it probably should be. I
know the line has to be drawn somewhere. I am merely a bit worried that we
are not really getting the full picture, because the similarities between
German and Lowlands languages are often much greater than it appears here.

As I explained in my other mail, Ron, for one, very often posts things that
are directly taken from German word for word (this is what I was referring
to with that one-on-one thing), without even mentioning that they are High
German, too, or even originally. By the way: there are very, very many
expressions that can be translated to and fro, word for word, between German
and Dutch, without hurting either language. So why would it be consideres a
crime to say the same for German and Lower Saxon? Why is everybody
automatically assuming that this would be done by someone who doesn't know
what (s)he is doing, resulting in a distorted, watered-down language? Of
course, one needs to know when this is possible and when it isn't (did I say
otherwise?), but denying that many things can be directly, and correctly
(!!) transferred between German and Lower Saxon / Scots and English / Dutch
and Afrikaans is a reaction that is just as emotional as the opposite.

Ron, besides not reflecting diversity and being coastal-centered, my main
issue with your standard spelling is not that it exists and is not German
based, but that it looks and feels so very unaesthetic, with all those "y"s
sticking out at the bottom - it's just about as readable as phonetics (OK, I
guess a linguist would just say "so what?"). Frankly, it's way too
unattractive to represent such a beautiful language...

Tom wondered:
> the local dialect.  Local dialects seem to be thriving in southern
> Germany.  I cannot understand why lowlands languages do not seem to be
> able to thrive equally well in the north.
That's a well-known phenomenon, and I wonder whether there really is a good
explanation. Maybe something to do with a stronger influence of "Prussian"
mentality in the north?

Mark wrote:
> I move that the more dedicated readers devise a strategy & program & take
> turns to prick Ron, Gabriele & Ingmar (expecially these three) in their
> softer spots.
As if you didn't already have one in place, Mark. Do I get to sue you for
harrassment for "pricking me in my softer spots"?

Ron said:
> resentment.  I do not mean to sound condescending and patronizing when I
say
> that I very much value them as our fellow-listers, that I feel there is
room
> among us for their predominantly emotionally based opinions, and that I am
> quite fond of both of them as people.
Actually, I do find "their predominantly emotionally based opinions" a bit
condescending, and rather dismissive... we prefer to call it "intuition and
common sense"!

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Gabriele!

I didn't get that submission.  This is a bit worrying, given also that
according to our Arthur I should have received one of his submissions -- and
I am rather consciencious about sorting the gems from the garbage.  This is
why it's a good idea to keep a copy of any submission and to erase it only
when the posting has appeared.

> Actually, I do find "their predominantly emotionally based opinions" a bit
> condescending, and rather dismissive... we prefer to call it "intuition
> and
> common sense"!

I can see the "dismissive" part from your viewpoint, not the condescending
one.  Be this as it may, "common sense" would require some sort of
explicable logic, while "intuition" in today's common usage denotes a type
of inexplicable gut feeling.  The latter tends to be a euphemism for
"emotionally based perception," "a feeling defying logic."

OK, and now let's play nice again, kids!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.21 (03) [E]

Influence of Antwerp in Noord-Brabant is not to be expected nowadays,
that's right, but since "Antwaarps" is a Western Brabant dialect it has
more in common with Standard Dutch originally than the Eastern Brabant
dialects I was mentioning. So, thru Standard Dutch influence, Eastern
Brabant becomes more "Western", and especially because St D. is influencing
the Antwerp Brabant dialect too, they become closer to eachother, I think.

Didi, I think you can stick to your accent in Amsterdam, most Dutch people
actually like a "Belgium" accent quite a lot, although maybe some stupid
souls will try to make fun of it. Probably your speech will be influenced
anyway, without noticing it yourself you'll hear it from others when you
are back home in weekends or holidays. So what?

Didi, ik denk da ge oew eige accent kent behaauwen in Amsterdam, de meeste
Hollanders vinden een Vlaoms accent wel schoon, mao der zen vast wel wa
stommelinge die zulle prebere der mee te lache. 't Kan goed da oew taol
toch wel binvloed wordt, zonder da ge der zellef erg in hebt, mao dan
hoorde da wel van andere a ge swiekends of in vekanties trug thuis komt...
Nauw dan is ta zo, da maakt ok niks toch?

Ingmar

Btw: Last weekend I was in the South-East of Limburg, Nederland, in
Simpelveld -between Heerlen and Aachen- and my 6-year old son Imme asked
a woman who spoke Standard Dutch with a local accent if she was German.
He knows the German accent because two of his classmates' mothers are from
Germany. She explained very kindly that it was the way they speak over
there, and the recording by Roger of the Belgium Western Limburg Wren
version came to my mind again. Especially the fact that it sounds totally
different from the accent in the Dutch province of Limburg (which lies East
of the Belgium province with the same name, and West of Rhineland,Germany).
The Vliermaal Limburgish sounded quite "Flemish" i.e. Belgium to me, with
its rolling r and (to me) much less audible tonal opposition.
A Dutch "Limbo" is immediately recognized as being from "Limbabwe"
or "Limboland" in the Netherlands because of his accent, as is a "Vlaming"
(a Dutch speaking "Belgiumer") but I think most Dutch won't recognize the
Western Limburgish accent as Limburgish but as Flemish. Funny, isn't it.

Ingmar

>Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson wrote:
>And you are right in your observation about the similarities to
>Verkavelignsvlaams. As a native speaker of that variety I know it very
>well, and except for the bende gij (where I invariably say zijde gij) I
>would speak exactly the same! (It looks me a it improbable that this is
>Antwerpian influence though.)
>I really hope when I'll be studying in Amsterdam next year, that I'll have
>some people from very much different dialects in my class, some from
>Brabant as well. I wonder if they would, hearing me speak with my accent
>(which I'll NO WAY be giving up for speaking St. Du. like I heard some
>Flemish students over there), also start talking more with their native
>accent or not.
>
>Diederik Masure

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.20 (07) [E]


Diederik wrote of his holiday in Ireland. Whilst on the whole his trip dealt
with a Celtic language and so, strictly speaking, is beyond the remit of
this list, I think much of what he wrote (which I wish to reply to) has
enough relevance here in general linguistic terms and in relation to English
to pass.

"For letting me hear some Gaelic (my father knows my interests) he put on
RnaG (Radio na Gaeltacht), apparently the only radio broadcasting in the
language. It sounded very guttural to me, a bit like Hebrew or Arabic, at
least when the native Gaels spoke (many a speaker had a clear native English
accent)."
Firstly, our practice is to refer to the language of Ireland as Irish.
"Gaelic" is generally only used by those who want to disparage the language
and to insinuate that it is a relic of "Gaelic times" - that is, not
relevant to "modern and vibrant English-speaking Ireland". (Linguistically,
we do classify the language as "Irish Gaelic", but that is irrelevant to
everyday usages.) Likewise, while in Scotland it is common to refer to
native speakers of Gaelic as "Gaels", that term is not used in Ireland. Most
people in Ireland, regardless of language use, are seen as "Gaeil" - indeed,
that is the term used in Irish to referred to Irish ethnic group. Irish
speakers are known as Gaeilgeoiri and no distinction is made between someone
for whom Irish is a first language or for whom Irish is a learnt language.
(Although in the Gaeltacht I imagine disparaging terms like
"fior-Ghaeilgeoiri" versus "breac-Ghaeilgeoiri" might be used.)

Raidió na Gaeltac! hta is a good place to hear Gaeltacht Irish and much of
the native velarisation and palatisation I presume you refer to as
"gutteral". To a speaker of Dutch or even High German I would not imagine
Irish to sound abnormally gutteral - it uses [x] and [c] with much less
frequency than either, although there is a stereotype among English speakers
that the pronunciation of any Celtic language is nothing short of
excessively phlegm-ridden spitting, precisely because most Englishes lack
[x] or [c]. Those who learn Irish often adapt Irish to their phonemic range
rather than the other way around (I was very surprised by this when I moved
to Derry as I had spent many hours perfecting velarisation). Consequently
one is usually able to tell a native Irish speaker from a non-native
Gaeilgeoir by this more limited - but still not English - phonemic range.

"My dad joked that they were ruining their own language by having this
radio. Maybe there is some truth in his idea. With boring talking and only
folk music (which I myself love though) which is often badly played, you
won't have the youth listen to the Gaelic radio but to some moderner,
English radios."

Well, I generally do not listen to Raidió na Gaeltachta, which to me
broadcasts as a sort of local radio for the Gaeltachtai. All the various
Gaeltachtai are rural and what interests them may not interest urban Irish
speakers. There is certainly an age divide, as you rightly note. It does
concern me. I think the traditional music is intentional, but not all of it
is Irish in origin.

"The first 3 days I heard not one person talking Gaelic."

Welcome to the reality of twenty-first century Ireland, alas. Even the Irish
Government doesn't use Irish - breaking its own laws in the process. I was
in Donegal not two weeks ago and all the temporary road works signs were in
English only, as was all the permanent council information signage. I have
been informed by people living in the Gaeltacht that their county councils
habitually communicate with them in English only, even after they have
complained that they would prefer to correspond in Irish.

Over the past ten to twenty years I have noticed a more hostile mood to
Irish in the general populace. There was always a small, vocal and middle
class minority who hated Irish and did all they could to mock, denigrate and
make it relevant. Those attitudes have now become basically mainstream, and
it's hard to find a southerner who has anything good to say about the
language. More and more the discourse is becoming one of "Irish is
unnecessary and it has too much prom! inence in national life" - this
despite the prominence of Irish dropping to near negligible levels in the
last decade!

"We were driving through Kerry, climbed (clumb?) the Carrán Tuathail /
Carrauntoohill (the highest mountain of the country), and sat in a lot of
pubs. But no Irish at all. Although some things at the side of the roads
indicated we entered the Gaeltacht."

I would not be surprised if you did not hear Irish in pubs in the Kerry or
Donegal Gaeltachtai. (Although this should not be the case in the Galway
Gaeltacht.) Tourists (both foreign and domestic) generally refuse to speak
Irish if they know it, and learn it if they do not. Consequently, most
transactions will be in English, even if the pub staff are Irish speakers.
In the Donegal Gaeltacht I am invariably asked what would I like to drink in
English, and in one pub (which I should name but will not), which prides
itself as Irish-speaking, one of the staff (who had worked there six weeks)
I was served by was a Scot of Irish descent who did not even know she was in
the Gaeltacht, or that ipso facto the local area was Irish-speaking.

"(the English place-names under the Irish ones gave a nice idea of
how to pronounce the upper ones, that was also interesting...)"

Yes. But even the road signs are evidence of the lamentable official
attitude to Irish. Why is the Irish one third smaller than the English, and
italicised? (All right, this goes back to the interaction between the old
Irish script and the Roman alphabet on road signs, in which the much more
ornate Irish looked smaller, but the Latin script has been in use for forty
years now. The downsizing of Irish reflects the official attitude that the
language is a bauble, an adornment, unnecessary and easily ignored if its
use becomes too difficult.)

"Then we went to Doolin, I heard one couple there that talked Gaelic to one
another. A man in the pub was telling to some tourist what a pitty it was
the language had disappeared to heavily. He had a strong accent so maybe he
was a speaker to. But on 4 days only 3 speakers out of thousands, at the
Westcoast, where it's said to stand strongest?"

Absolutely. This is a common scene. Although I will suggest one caveat,
which is that many of the thousands of people you met in the Gaeltachtai may
have been internal tourists from other parts of Ireland or even foreign
tourists. Contrary to popular belief and tourist board adverts, most Irish
speakers don't spend their days sitting in the street waiting to be talked
to. If they are indoors, there's no reason why you meet them.

"We sailed to Inis Mór there there seemed to be pretty much more Gaelic,
although I didn't hear anyone talking it to someone else. The woman at the
museum of the Dún Aonghasa pronounced a few words though by request of my
father."

In Inis Mór (good to see the Irish place name, not its English garbling) use
of Irish is a mainstay of the economy because of language courses, summer
schools, linguistic tourists and the like, but even there Irish gives way to
English on commercial signage (if not on public). To compare, most of the
staff of Gleann Bheatha (I can't remember what it is in English) national
park in Donegal are Gaelgeoiri, but you have to really push to get any Irish
out of them. This is because their jobs are basically English-speaking, and
anyone using Irish to them is a surprise.

"The last day, we drove to Galway (Gaillimh if I remember correctly?
Pronounced as Galliw or Galliv or something?) as my dad knew a good
bookstore there (I had told him I wanted to buy a good book about either Old
or New Irish before it was too late - over here they're even harder to
find). I came home with an old book about Middle Welsh and one about Middle
English (all very nice by the way).! No Gaelic book in my bag! Another
disappointing thing, I had expected that there would be a lot more
interesting and worth-buying books about Gaelic in the shops!"

Gaillimh (Galway) is pronounced roughly ['gal.liv]. I am surprised you found
it hard to obtain books on or in Irish, however. Introductory learning
materials are available throughout Ireland, and there are some academic
books on the language available in most proper bookshops. Perhaps it was
just an unlucky day?

"[Y]es there were a few courses Gaelic available, but as the back-cover
already mentioned things like "the easiest way to learn Gaelic without any
difficult therms" and that kind of stuff, no thorough grammar either, I'm
not looking for simple books but things that learn me how to create new
things instead of copying sentences that you can use in the post-office, the
bakery, ... But teaching decent grammar seems to be the lack of any modern
language study. Even at school here."

Then you will be as despondent as I am about a thread that has been running
through the letters page of the Irish Times for the last fortnight or so.
Appar! ently, some of its readers find Irish a bit too difficult and have
suggested that the language be simplified for them - so no eclipsis or
lenition and a cut back on the declensions (there are only three, so I don't
know how they want to cut back)! So far most correspondents have
(unbelievably) agreed, and only one that I have read has pointed out that
these features perform necessary functions in the language. What madness
that the debate should even be being had. I think that says more about
linguistic attitudes in modern Ireland than I ever could.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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