LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.25 (02) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.24 (04) [E/?]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Ingmar,
>
[snip]
> Of course, the Northern dialects of German have more LS loans.  Many
> Northerners aren't aware of them being local, and Southerners may not
> understand them, or they find them "typical."  But I think this is
> happening
> less and less as the Northern color is fading away at a stage of advanced
> Germanization.
>
> As for phonology, I believe that the fast spreading feature of final
> fricativization of _-g_ belongs to LS influence (e.g., _einig_ ['aInIC],
> Southern dialect ['aInik]), 'agreed', 'unanymous').

One large example that sticks out in my mind is the use of the word
"moin".  When chatting online in German, I've ended up picking up that
expression from other people in it, and it's ended up replacing "guten
Tag" and whatnot in my normal everyday usage.  Of course, the fact
that many of the other users of this particular German-language IRC
channel use that expression is probably a major factor in such.

Of course, I've ended up being laughed at by individuals from southern
Germany, who've said that it sounds really "provincial" (to use the
words of one individual) and like, but I use it nonetheless simply
because I'm used to it being used so heavily, and because it is more
succinct (and sounds nicer and is more informal) than the alternatives
(and "hallo" just sounds way too much like English).  Anyways,
apparently from what I've read, the word is not actually native to
German per se, but is a loan from Low Saxon into German that has
actually caught on throughout northern Germany, and is apparently
progressively expanding its usage area southwards within German.

----------

From: SBoyo48314 at aol.com <SBoyo48314 at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.24 (06) [E/LS/Patentplatt]

Can anyone explain to what extent English syntax and grammar has been
influenced by Scandinavian (notably Danish/Norwegian). It appears that what
became middle and modern English was the hybrid English spoken in the
Anglo-Danish realm(specifcally the Midlands part) and I wonder if this is
responsible for the word for word similarity between English and
Scandinavian syntax.

Steve [Boyd]

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.24 (02) [E]

James Ward wrote:
> One example comes to mind that I am not quite sure fits the
> power-struggle model:  Judeo-Spanish or Ladino.  The speakers of this
> language are often so dispersed that I don't see any geopolitical
> motivation in the efforts to keep it spoken and written.  It's pretty
> much a labor of love and memory.  Surely that applies to others as
> well... which is not to say I don't see your point and find it widely
> applicable.

I should have been more explicit; it is, of course, a different thing with
languages that are still cherished and kept alive by their native speakers,
however small the group may be. These include, of course Scots and Lower
Saxon as well, of course, in all its many flavours and dialects, along with
a number of Native American languages, and numerous others.

However, this is not the same as languages that are kept artificially alive
from the outside, in the manner of "you are a native of XYZ, and it is your
duty to speak the language! And here's how it is spoken!" These are the
cases where a political agenda prevails. Sometimes, the two overlap, where
there is a part of the population who speaks the minority language out of
tradition or renewed interest, and others are urged to speak it, too,
whether they feel it is appropriate for them or not.

Ron claimed that in my region, the Solling, Lower Saxon has been much more
heavily watered down and diluted than elsewhere - on the coast, for example.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Of course, there is also a
"lighter" version of Platt, designed so younger people and outsiders can
understand it, too. The vocabulary is basically the same, but the
prononciation is a lot more "palatable" and easier to figure out. But the
very same people will speak a throroughly guttural, "archaic" version of
Platt amongst themselves, which almost sounds like Polish to the untrained
ear and which, for example, even my mother who grew up in Mecklenburg where
Platt was still spoken in elementary school, could not understand.

I was friends with several children in a family from my village; their
father was the local gardener. They spoke and understood "regular" Platt,
undiluted or hybridised, just fine. But when their father talked to his
mother, none of them understood a word of what they were saying!

This language is still alive in pockets throughout the region, but its
speakers are almost as secretive as freemasons; they would probably feel
less exposed parading in their underwear in public places than speaking it
in front of outsiders. It's probably just too close to home; as I mentioned
previously, for example, no Northern German would ever be overheard saying
"I love you" even to his spouse or children in public, and it would always
make me flinch hearing people say that all the time in the USA, even as a
regular way of ending a phone conversation.

I know that at least one book exists with samples of the language (I'll try
to get hold of it), although, of course, the actual sound of the language is
lost in writing. I know of no recordings, either, and the only Google hit on
the Internet for "Sollinger Platt" that I could find was an archived
Lowlands post by myself... and, frankly, while I write this, I get an eerie
feeling that it wouldn't be right to drag the old people's language out into
the open! This is the same kind of reluctance that tribal members must feel
to reveal their secret rites to ethnologists. Odd, isn't it?!

Well, it is part of human nature that we want to preserve what we know and
love. But artificial human culture just isn't designed that way. Fashion,
language, music, ethics, they all change over time. Over the last two
centuries, however, we have found ourselves in a rather new situation,
because the speed of change has increased so very much. While previous
generations lived with the (sometimes mixed) blessing of having to make only
very minor adjustments to their cultural environment over a lifetime,
through the industrial revolution, modern technology, much increased
mobility, globalisation, mass media, etc., we now have to keep adjusting to
major cultural changes all the time. Therefore, we need to pick our fights
very carefully, and focus first and foremost on preserving that which can
never be replaced.

Thus, I am not really worried about the survival of languages, no matter how
much beauty they offer and how sad I would be to see them go. As long as
humans are around, there will alwas be communication through language, and
there will always be beauty in that, so what is there to worry? And why be
so afraid of this realisation that one would to resort to accusing people of
trying to stir up trouble, and threatening to send in one's thugs (who seem
to be quite unaware that this is the role they were chosen to play)? :-)

So, could the Anglo-Saxon language have been preserved in Britain after
1066, if only enough Lowlands activists had been around? I take it there
were plenty of those, and still...

Ron wrote:
> Yiddish was, and to a much lesser degree still is, the carrier of a great
> culture and a glorious literary tradition.  It is now becoming an
endangered
> language, younger people using it primarily if they belong to an
enthusiast
> minority.  Should we just say, "So be it," let "them" win, and move on?

I know, I know, I share the same emotional standpoint (I, too, am very fond
of Yiddish, especially in the context of Yiddish songs and Klezmer music),
but maybe you need to stop and think: is this really our fight (who did you
mean by "we" anyway)? How much right do we even have to butt in? A revival
of Yiddish would have to come from within, not without. Telling Jewish
people (being German, no less) that they ought to speak Yiddish (I know,
your approach is not that blunt, but I have to word this somehow) is a bit
like all those "male feminists" trying to tell women how they should go
about that whole emancipation thing. This is simply not our decision. It's
like watching your neighbour chop down the roses in his garden and planting
some dusty coniferes instead. You hate it, and you think it is wrong for all
kinds of reasons, but there is really nothing you can do about it, because
the choice is his.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.24 (06) [E/LS/Patentplatt]

Jet nok een Öwersettung von dien Ballade up echtet Platt, dahmid wi et mid
eenander verglieken können. Mick schient "Jonnys Dracken" nok teemlick
Sässisch to, dat heet natürlick: Platt van Düütschland. Awer wenn du sägst
datt dat nich so iss, mot ick dick dat glowen.
Ingmar

>Reinhard dichtete:

>   JONNYS DRACKEN
>
>        Een Ballade op Patentplatt
>        för Jonny Meibohm
>        von Reinhard F. Hahn
>
>   Jonny hett sien Dracken funnen,
>   flucht daröber Daach un Stunnen,
>   bestiegt schleeßlich sien ool Muuldier
>   un griept een Besen als sien Spier,
>   een Pott ut Bleck op sienen Kopp,
>   een Hahnenfeder oben drop,
>   schriet he: "Wiki, ik krieg di,
>   schüüßlich Biest! Dien Schrierie
>   is ja weder hoch noch platt,
>   is 'n Twitter -- 'k will di wat --
>   is keen Spraak, is een Patschent,
>   Scharlatanenkram, Patent!
>   Platt mögen dien Fööt wohl sien,
>   hoch dien Naas, du oles Schwien,
>   doch dien Spraak koop ik nich af,
>   schmiet se mit di in dien Graff.
>   Nu pass op, du schrecklich Wesen!
>   Ik komm di nun mit mien Besen!"
>   Dann spoornt he sien Muuldier an,
>   riet ganz bravourös voran ...
>   un vor em, hoch op den Högel,
>   drehn sik still de Möhlenflögel.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language variety

Gabriele:

> Ron claimed that in my region, the Solling, Lower Saxon has been much more
> heavily watered down and diluted than elsewhere - on the coast, for
> example.

This would be a misrepresentation.  I did not *claim* it.  I very clearly
said that I *supposed* or *guessed* it.

> A revival
> of Yiddish would have to come from within, not without. Telling Jewish
> people (being German, no less) that they ought to speak Yiddish (I know,
> your approach is not that blunt, but I have to word this somehow) is a bit
> like all those "male feminists" trying to tell women how they should go
> about that whole emancipation thing.

This is yet another misrepresentation.  I would characterize it as
"twisting" if I did not suspect you of actually convincing yourself of these
things.  I'll let the quite irrelevant thing about German pass rather than
perceive it as a below-the-belt blow, because I think I know you well enough
to give you the benefit of the doubt, and I am familiar with the genesis of
this unfortunate endemic sentiment.

Did I ever say that *I* wanted "to save Yiddish"?  Did anyone else hear me
say that?  We were talking about the pros and cons of keeping languages
alive, and we brought up examples.  In the case of Yiddish I mentioned
decimation in the Holocaust followed by antagonistic attitudes in Zionist
quarters.  As a pro in Yiddish preservation I mentioned that what would
amount to a fatalistic attitude, "giving up," "letting die" (which you had
brought up, if not proposed in a general way) would amount to letting
adversity and animosity win, given that there are still lots of people that
use and love Yiddish.  I myself did not enter the equation, except in the
anecdotes I used for illustration purposes.  So, fair go (to use an
Australian expression)!  You would do well to run your responses through
reality and fairness checks before you send them off, and remember that,
while we are having a debate, I and those of "my ilk" are not really the
enemy.

Ingmar:

> Jet nok een Öwersettung von dien Ballade up echtet Platt, dahmid wi et mid
> eenander verglieken können. Mick schient "Jonnys Dracken" nok teemlick
> Sässisch to, dat heet natürlick: Platt van Düütschland. Awer wenn du sägst
> datt dat nich so iss, mot ick dick dat glowen.

German-based spelling:

   JONNY SIEN DRAKEN

        'n Ballaad op (up) (Platt)
        för Jonny Meibohm
        von (vun) Reinhard F. Hahn

   Jonny hett sien Draken funnen,
   flöökt (schafudert) daröver (daröber) Daag un Stünnen,
   stiegt opletzt (upletzt) op (up) sien ool Muuldeer(t) ((r)op)
   un grippt 'n Bessem (Bessen) as sien Speer,*
   'n Pott (Putt) ut Bleck (Blick) op (up) sien Kopp,
   'n Hahnenfedder baven (boben) op (up),
   schriet (schreet) he: "Wiki, ik krieg di,
   gresig Beest! Dien Schrierie (Schreeree)
   is nich hooch un is nich platt,
   is 'n Twitter -- 'k will di wat --
   is keen Spraak, is man patschent,**
   Scharlatanenkraam, Patent!
   Platt möögt woll (wull) dien Fööt sien,
   hoog dien Nees, du olet Swien,
   man dien Spraak kööp ik nich af,
   smiet ehr mit di in dien Graff.
   Nu wahr di, du grulich (grolich) Wesen!
   Ik kaam di nu mit mien Bessem (Bessen)!"
   Denn purrt he sien Muuldeer(t) an,
   ritt ganz (heel) k(u)rascheert vöran ...
   un vör em, hooch op (up)'n Barg ('n Knüll, de Höögt),
   dreiht sik still de Möhlenseils (-segels/-flünken).

AS spelling:

   JONNY SYN DRAKEN

        'n Ballaad' up (Plat)
        vör Jonny Meibohm
        vun Reinhard F. Hahn

   Jonny het syn draken vunden,
   vloykt (schafudert) daar oever daag' un stünden,
   stygt up letst up syn old muuldeyr(t) ((r)up)
   un gript 'n bessem (bessen) as syn speer,*
   'n put (pot) uut blik (blek) up syn kop,
   'n hanen-vedder baven up,
   schryt (schreyt) hey: "Wiki, ik kryg' dy,
   gresig beyst! Dyn schreyerey
   is nich hoog un is nich plat,
   is 'n twitter -- 'k wil dy wat --
   is keyn spraak, is man patschent,**
   scharlatanen-kraam, patent!
   Plat moegt wul dyn voyt syn,
   hoog dyn nees', du oldet swyn,
   man dyn spraak koyp ik nich af,
   smyt er mit dy in dyn grav.
   Nu waar dy, du grulig (groulig) wesen!
   Ik kaam dy nu mit myn bessem (bessen)!"
   Den purt hey syn muuldeyr(t) an,
   ritt ganss (heyl) k(u)raascheyrd vöran ...
   un vör em, hoog up d'n barg (d'n knül, de hoygd),
   drayt sik stil de moelen-sayls (-segels/-vlünken).

* spyr (<Spier>) 'stalk'
** patschent (adj) 'sick', 'ill' (< patient)

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