LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.03 (03) [A/E/LS]

Thu Nov 3 15:59:22 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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03 November 2005 * Volume 03
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.02 (15) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:
> Ik gloyv' ik mut Jou junckx by lütten maal by de bückxsen krygen.  Waart
> Jou, Jy krabauters!  "Of the *Day*"?!  Eckxkuysee moa?!  "*Relatively*
> friendly"?!  Daar jukt wul eyn wissen Hadeler syn vel.  "Herder" maybe,
but
> "herder of cats" more like.
>
> I can't even get the dates right ...

Looks like our genius can't even read, hee hee... it said "on duty", not "of
the day". So, not of this day, obviously! :-)))

>Shows you how much attention I was paying; that's how crazy it's been
around me these past
> couple of days.

Yep!
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.01 (10) [E]

Hi, Jonny, Ron,

> Subject: LL-L "Orthography"

>> (Sire! The pedants are restless!)

>> I'll pee (on) *your* dant!  It wasn't I but our Ian that started it:

> Pedantry, often and condescendingly aspected as 'typical German', isn't
> always as bad as one could mean. I'd often like to have more of it- but
> not
> really, at the end ;-)...
> But- and this is a serious fact- as far as old, 'suffering' languages are
> concerned we *have* to be pedants. It's our duty to avoid misleading
> mistakes, and for me (except at the 1st of April) it is the utmost and
> first
> directive.
> No 'Patentplatt'!!! (But- how to manage it? Because you cross it every
> day!)

Well, you have made a strong point there.

> (Ron) Thanks, Jonny ... I think.

> I've long searched for a good name describing the opposite of
> _Patentplatt_ (which denotes "fake/made-up/make-believe Low Saxon").
> "Genuine Platt" won't quite do it, since the name ought to express more,
> of the other extreme: "super-correct (with no innovation and deviation
> permitted)."

Ron, go back to the root- in the root-languages. What Jonny is cherishing &
you are cultivating is _Egplat_. Want dit is mos eg nê, tussen al die vals.
En soos die boer se eg sny julle met jul skerpe tande in tot die diepte van
die egte taal, en slaan die onverteerbare klonte patentplatt tussenin terug
tot die grond waarvan hulle so onelegant aanmekaar geplak is! Askies, as ek
die metafoor oorgebruik.

Niedat, Ron, u 'pedantplatt' 'n sekere ronde, mondaanvullende krag nie het
nie. Hier is ammunisie om 'n roekelose patenter en sy patent met murg en
mening plat te slaan!

Ons Taal se patentplat neem oorweldigend die vorm van 'angelisismes' in,
waar meestal Romanse elemente van Engels darem krü ingespan is om in
Afrikaans 'n konsep oor te dra waarvoor daar gewoonweg 'n paar woorde al
bestaan.

Die uwe,
Mark

(Sire, the pedants are revolting!)
(Yes, aren't they!)
In die verband, Ron, nommer ek my ook ieder onder die range van die
'pedante'.

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.01 (10) [E]

Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET> wrote:
  From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha
  Subject: Language Varieties

  Dear all,

  During the course of my daily research I came by surprise across more
  information about Yola, the Early Middle English dialect spoken in the
  baronies of Forth and Bargy in the extreme south east of Wexford here in
  Ireland from the time of the Anglo-Norman invasion in 1169 until the
  nineeteenth century. The information can be found in:

  Whelan, Kevin (ed.). Wexford: History and Society: Interdisciplinary 
Essays
  on the History of an Irish County. Dublin: Geography Publications (1987).

  For our interests here, most importantly in the book there is also a 
further
  (to my knowledge hitherto mostly unknown) excerpt in Yola, reputedly the
  last document written in the language, a personal letter 'to Ireland' by
  Kathleen Browne, which I reproduce here (with author's translation, p. 
489):

  "Burstheoune, Avril 10, 1893
  Vo! urneen Joan,

  'Cham goan hend a sparkeen wough theezil, ing oure yola talk o' Baronie
  Forthe. Fan yartha goane t'yie ons hyme zwae? Gee o gooude riesph to ee 
ball
  an Vreedie nyeght an zend up ee score ower varty an than drink a heall ing
  yooure usquebaugh to ercha vriend o' livertie. Fan thyme yurae be coome w'
  oul maake a teaoune yn Ballygeary an hoave oure Parliament houze thaare.
  'Cham glaude t'zee ee Redmondites epealtheen aan-anooree yn Dublin. 
Thommeen
  Healy beeth a quiel-laaune, mot av hea goe maake gaaume o' thee Chaungher 
ee
  lugges an hollybulkaane 'em. 'Cham youreen baarich an dicke arraugh 
curthere
  be zo thyne. Ich well no leiangh aany valler. Zo heoll, grien an kin apaa
  thee.

  "An chan, yer vriende, Kealeen Browne."

  Translation:
  "Bridgetown, April 10 1893
  Dear Joan [female personification of Ireland],

  I am going to speak with you in our old Barony Forth dialect. When are you
  going to come home to u! s? Give a good stroke to the ball on Friday night 
and
  send up the score [of pro-nationalist MPs] over forty and then drink a
  health in your own whiskey to every friend of liberty. When that time will
  come, we'll make a town in Ballygeary and have our Parliament House there. 
I
  am glad to see the Redmondites fighting with one another in Dublin. Tim
  Healy is a smart lad, asking if they are going to make a laugh of you,
  pulling their ears and ridiculing themselves. I am sowing barley this 
spring
  season: as it is fine, I will not idle any further, so health, good 
weather
  and regards to you.

  "I am, your friend, Kathleen Browne."

  Several things immediately jump out at me, apart from the free 
translation.
  Ms Browne seemed to have some knowledge of the origin of certain facets of
  Yola - for instance, she writes _'cham_ with apostrophe for spoken _cham_
  ("I am"), a contraction of _ich am_ (also found in Devon). Nevertheless 
she
  seem! s to make a mistake at the end by writing _an chan_ for _an cham_ 
("and
  I am"). This in itself is a calque from Irish _is mise_ ("I am"), the
  equivalent of "yours sincerely". There are other influences from Irish,
  notably _vourneen_ from Ir. _mo mhuirnin_ ("my dear one") and the form 
_apaa
  thee_ ("upon you") seems to be a calque on Ir. _ort_ ("upon you"). 
_Arraugh_
  is a borrowing of Ir. _Earrach_, "spring".

  Some of the language seems self-conscious, such as the use of _Thommeen_ 
for
  "Tim". The two names are not the same, and the use of _Thommeen_ can be
  considered an affectation based on knowledge of another Yola excerpt, a 
tale
  of a hurling legend named Thommeen. ("-een", of course, is borrowed from
  Irish.) Likewise _usquebaugh_ for "whiskey" is probably also a
  self-conscious, almost stage Irish antiquarianism. Furthermore, the 
writing
  of "liberty" as _livertie_ is interesting, mainly as an aid to how Yola
  pronounced [b] word-me! dially. Note also that Browne writes _ing_ for 
"in"
  but later on uses _yn Dublin_.

  I have no idea how Yola vowels were pronounced, but the torturously long
  sequences ("teaoune" springs to mind) remind me of the accents of Somerset
  and Devon which, by all accounts, Yola had the greatest phonemic affinity
  with. (Although "teaoune" may indicate palatisation, i.e., perhaps 
[tjau:n])

  What are the impression of the rest of the list?

  Heoll apaa thee!

  Criostóir.

  Criostóir,

  Very interesting information, that raises a few points in my mind.  First, 
being derived from an early ME, I'm surprised that there seems to be no 
obvious Norse influence, given that was really the first Germanic language 
prevalent in Ireland, and considering how strongly it affected northern 
English speech.  Perhaps Norse was pretty well extinct in Ireland by the 
time English speakers arrived.

  Secondly, to what extent has this influenced modern Irish accents, at 
least some of them?  I recall reading many years ago that Ulster speech can 
be divided into areas influenced by SW England on one hand, and the 
Anglo-Scottish border region on the other.  I sometimes think I hear a hint 
of both in the English of Northern Ireland.

----------

From: Jo Thys <jo.thijs1 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.01 (10) [E]

Hoi Críostóir ,

> Several things immediately jump out at me, apart from the free
translation.

At me too.

> Nevertheless she
> seems to make a mistake at the end by writing _an chan_ for _an cham_
("and
> I am").

In Limburgish sentences often start with 'chem' too, which is considered a
contraction of 'ich hem', i have (?).
e.g. 'chem 'm gesin' (i have seen him). 'Chan' on the other hand is
considered a contraction of 'ich goan', I go, e.g. 'chan vessen' (I go
fishing (now)). Maybe the theories did make a mistake and not the writer.
Anyway,

heoll, grien an kin apaa thee,

Jo Thys

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