LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.15 (01) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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15 November 2005 * Volume 01
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.09 (06) [E]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L"Etymology"
>
> Paul wrote:
>
>>   Speakers of different dialects! found it much harder to understand
>> each
>> other than today. Caxton quotes the case of 'a certain merchant named
>> (or
>> from?) Sheffield who asked for eggs in a London shop.  The 'goodwyfe'
>> said
>> she spoke no French, and didn't know what he meant.  He said he spoke no
>> French either, he just wanted some eggs. Another customer explained that
>> the
>> man 'wolde have eyren'.  The lady said, 'well, why did he not he say
>> so?'
>> Caxton concludes 'what sholde a man say in these times? eggs or eyren?'.
>
> But- I don't think it was a typical example for those times. I assume
> it to
> be a Bate's election to point out something in your thread.
>
> BTW: I didn't follow all of it. Where, in England of that times, people
> liked to speak this way (sorry- but Ron missed to add any
> header/topic!)? I
> just found any nearness to the nice little Chanèl ;-)!

Difficulties in understanding between different forms of English was
normal in England up until at least the early 20th century, and
certainly well beyond, in some cases.

The English of the South West of the country (Gloucester, Wiltshire,
Hampshire, Dorset, Somerset, Devon and parts of Oxfordshire -
collectively known as "The West Country") can be pretty much mutually
incomprehensible with other dialects, as can the Cockney of London,
Yorkshire dialect and others.

I live in the West Country and while I can't hear the dialects, I do
come across examples of the difficulty, especially when older speakers
are involved. For example, in one village in Gloucester we stopped to as
an older man for directions. A young chap who was with us who was from
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, had to interpret for us. He told me
afterwards that the problem was that he was speaking "Gloucestershire".

I was once walking through Yeovil with a young Londoner and a man who
looked about 30 years old stopped in his van to ask us for directions.
Afterwards the Londoner told me he had to give up because "his
'Zummerset' was too strong".

My father told me that when he was in the Merchant Navy in the 1950's,
Cockneys (Londoners) were completely unintelligible to other English
speakers. This would probably be due to rhyming slang which at one point
seems to have become pretty much a language -or at least a vocabulary -
in itself with the speakers unaware that rhyming was involved.

West Country dialect (The "e" section of the glossary to "Cluster o
Vive" by John Read, Somerset Folk Press, 1923):

'Ee: thee; you
Eens: as; seeing that.
Elemen: made of elm.
En: him; it.
Evet: newt.

Note that "en" will mean "it" when applied to masculine nouns: there is
a gender system in West Country dialect involving masculine, feminine
and neuter. I still hear this in at least the older people in my own
village, eg the clock is always referred to as "he", the cat as "she"
(even if it's male) and so on.

As you go north, things begin to look decidedly Scots even as far south
as Yorkshire. From John Castillo's poem "Awd Isaac" (published 1902):

Fuoks just wer tonning oot ther ky--
A little plain awd man come by;
"Cum sit ya doon, gud friend," sed I,
           "An' rist yer legs,"
He'd been a bit of floor te buy,
           And twae or three eggs.

I think it can well be said that in Caxton's time the problem of
deciding on a standard vocabulary for the whole of England was acute.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/ 

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