LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.21 (05) [E/Spanish]

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 21 November 2005 * Volume 04
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.21 (03) [E/Spanish]

Dear Ron and Sandy,

you made some thoughts about the song 'Hamburger Veermaster...".

Ship-crews, I think, mostly had been (and still are) of mixed nationality,
formerly under Dutch and English dominance (the influence of Spanish and
Portuguese wasn't so great as far as languages are concerned), at least
after the times of the Hanse.

Many German *Duodez-Fürsten* (the *emperors* of all those minor states in
Middle Europe) wanted an own fleet but even hadn't a harbour for their
ships.
The bigger German cities at the sea, as Lübeck, Hamburg, Bremen etc. didn't
want them, because they aspected them as business rivals.
So many of them had their home ports and trading posts in Britain and The
Netherlands, with British or Dutch officers and crews in maiority.

Somewhat different of course it looked near the German coasts, but there we
had a *natural* Dutch/English influence.

So it might not surprise at all that great parts of the songs we call
'Seemanslieder' have got passages in English, in special that ones created
in the 17th to 19th century.
I even should like to say that some songs which are completely English are
regarded less as British but more as international goods of seafarer's
culture.
Even in times of WW II German sailors liked to sing these songs, though they
officially might have been forbidden. (Perhaps a reason for the fact that
Hermann Goering always hated the German navy... ;-))

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.21 (03) [E/Spanish]

I wonder if that is because you aren't native speakers of Spanish,
Portuguese or another related Romance language. Maybe for native speakers
of those languages it's much easier to understand Papiamento at first
sight than for learners. I'm sure that for a non-native speaker of Dutch
or Afrikaans it's quite hard to understand the Virgin Island Creole or
Skepi Dutch, but native speakers will recognize a lot more intuitively.

Ingmar

>Mark:
>
>> Sí, más o menos.  Es un tanto dificil porque la ortografía es
diferente, y
>> uno tiene que tratar de pronunciar las palabras para reconocerlas.
>
Reginaldo:
>¡Gracias, Marcos! Tu descripción probablemente se aplica a todas las
idiomas
>de tipo pidgin y criolla. Yo tenía el mismo "problema" cuando vi
papiamentu
>y ladino (judeo-español) escritos por primera vez.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Jonny!

Thanks for the interesting information about sea shanties and their 
background.  Yes, there *are* international shanties, but not all of them 
are international, and I assume the one I presented was specific to Northern 
Germany.

Hi, Ingmar!

> I wonder if that is because you aren't native speakers of Spanish,
> Portuguese or another related Romance language.

Well, I've been assuming -- possibly wrongly so -- that Mark Brooks is the 
literal translation of Marcos Arroyos, in other wards that our Mark is a 
native Spanish speaker.  But of course it could be the other way around ... 
;-)  (I believe that Arroyos a more common Spanish surname than Brooks is an 
English one.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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