LL-L "Etymology" 2005.10.02 (04) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.10.01 (03) [A/D/E]

Hi, Heather and Ron,

Ron wrote:
> In Low Saxon it does have a different, albeit related meaning from the
> English one.  It is used as a noun: _Black_ (<blak>) [blak] 'ink'.
It is still used here, but I always presumed it to be a loan from English.
Because- still today (black) ink glasses are marked with 'Schwarz/Black',
and pupils could have picked up this word and made it to become the common
expression?

But we have another word close to 'black' and its possible derivation:
LS(?): 'blaken/bloken' (DUDEN denotes it to be from Northern German origin),
G: 'schwelen, rußen', E: 'to smoulder, to smoke'.

BTW: isn't it interesting, that there is another word sounding very similar
just in the opposite meaning? LS: 'bleeken', G: 'bleichen', E: 'to bleach',
as G: '_er_bleichen' in a transcendent meaning 'to become pale'.
And this on the other hand reminds me somehow of E: 'bleak' in the special
meaning of G: '(trostlos, trübe,) düster'.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use"

Liebe Lowländer,
(English summary below)

ein vermutlich hochdeutsches Wort erregt zur Zeit mein Interesse (daher
wähle ich auch diese Sprache)- vielleicht finden wir jedoch auch hier
(prae-)germanische Wurzeln ;-).

_kirre_: laut DUDEN  (ugs. für zutraulich, zahm; nervös, unsicher); 'jmdn.
kirre machen'
Offenbar scheidet sich hier gerade im Moment der deutsche Sprachgebrauch:
ich selbst kenne dieses Wort aus der Jägersprache nur als 'ankirren' =
'anfüttern, anlocken von Wild', was ja wohl auch der ursprünglichen
Bedeutung (gem. Herkunfts-DUDEN) ostmitteld. _kirre_ enstpr. mhd. _kürre_ ,
mnd. _quer[r]e_, got. _quaìrrus_, aisl. _kvirr_  in der Bedeutung von
'sanftmütig, ruhig, still, freundlich' nahe kommt.
Heute wird es jedoch zunehmend in der Formulierung (s.o.) _kirre machen_
='nervös, unsicher machen' benutzt- es wird also geradezu ins Gegenteil
verkehrt.
Ich halte es in dieser Bedeutung schlichtweg für falsch- nur: der allgemeine
Sprachgebrauch, wie sinnverkehrend auch immer, ist vermutlich das stärkere
Argument als die etymologische Schlüssigkeit?!

Mit freundlichen Grüße

Jonny

***
(English summary)

Dear Lowlanders,

today a word from High German I'm interested in (therefore I liked to write
my posting in G).

_kirre_ DUDEN explains as a colloquial expression for 'friendly,
domesticated'; 'nervous, unsure'.

The German language seems to divide at this point, just at this very moment.
I myself only use it in the ancient sense _ankirren_, meaning 'to lure' in
agreement with  the Etymological DUDEN: MiddleEastG _kirre_, MiddleHighG
_kürre_, MiddleLowSaxon _quer[r]re_, OldIcelandic _kvirr_ - all of them in
the meaning of 'friendly, domesticated, calm'.
In our days it's increasingly used in the meaning of _kirre machen_, meaning
(look above) 'to make someone nervous, unsure'.

I guess this version to be wrong- but "vox populi" obviously has more weight
than etymological logics?!

With kind regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Jonny!

> But we have another word close to 'black' and its possible derivation:
> LS(?): 'blaken/bloken' (DUDEN denotes it to be from Northern German 
> origin),
> G: 'schwelen, rußen', E: 'to smoulder, to smoke'.

Yep, that's related.

> Because- still today (black) ink glasses are marked with 'Schwarz/Black',
> and pupils could have picked up this word and made it to become the common
> expression?

I don't think so, because it's an old word.  But maybe English influences 
have reinforced its survival.

> BTW: isn't it interesting, that there is another word sounding very 
> similar
> just in the opposite meaning? LS: 'bleeken', G: 'bleichen', E: 'to 
> bleach',
> as G: '_er_bleichen' in a transcendent meaning 'to become pale'.
> And this on the other hand reminds me somehow of E: 'bleak' in the special
> meaning of G: '(trostlos, trübe,) düster'.

Etymologies often mention this and usually stress that they are in no way 
related.

Interestingly, even in Old English writings _blæc_ ~ _blac_ 'black' and 
_blác_ 'shining', 'white', 'pale', 'pallid' (related to words like "bleach" 
(<  blǽc(e)an), "blake" (obs.), "bloke (obs.), Old Saxon _blêc_, Low Saxon 
_bleyk_ <bleek> 'pale', Dutch _bleek_, Old German _bleih_, German _bleich_ 
'pale', Old Norse _bleikr_) got confused at times.

I wrote:

> *_Blak_ seems to be the older word for 'black' (rather than 'dark'), and 
> it
> appears to be related to Germanic *_blǽkkan-_ (*_bl{ae'}kkan-_) 'burnt',
> 'scorched', cognate of Greek φλέγειν _flégein_ 'to burn', 'to scorch'.

The other word goes back to Germanic *_blaiko-z-_ 'shining', 'white', 
'pale', related to _blîkan_ 'to shine'; cf. Low Saxon _bleyken_ (<bleken>) 
trans. 'to bleach' (cf. German _bleichen_), intrans. 'to shine' (with the 
frequentive derivative _bleykern_ (<blekern>) 'to glitter', 'to glimmer').

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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