LL-L "Etymology" 2005.10.02 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2005 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.10.02 (04) [E/German]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.10.01 (03) [A/D/E]
>
> Hi, Heather and Ron,
>
> Ron wrote:
>
>> In Low Saxon it does have a different, albeit related meaning from the
>> English one.  It is used as a noun: _Black_ (<blak>) [blak] 'ink'.
>
> It is still used here, but I always presumed it to be a loan from
> English.
> Because- still today (black) ink glasses are marked with 'Schwarz/Black',
> and pupils could have picked up this word and made it to become the
> common
> expression?
>
> But we have another word close to 'black' and its possible derivation:
> LS(?): 'blaken/bloken' (DUDEN denotes it to be from Northern German
> origin),
> G: 'schwelen, rußen', E: 'to smoulder, to smoke'.
>
> BTW: isn't it interesting, that there is another word sounding very
> similar
> just in the opposite meaning? LS: 'bleeken', G: 'bleichen', E: 'to
> bleach',
> as G: '_er_bleichen' in a transcendent meaning 'to become pale'.
> And this on the other hand reminds me somehow of E: 'bleak' in the
> special
> meaning of G: '(trostlos, trübe,) düster'.
>
> Greutens/Regards
>
> Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
>
> ----------
>
> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use"
>
> Liebe Lowländer,
> (English summary below)
>
> ein vermutlich hochdeutsches Wort erregt zur Zeit mein Interesse (daher
> wähle ich auch diese Sprache)- vielleicht finden wir jedoch auch hier
> (prae-)germanische Wurzeln ;-).
>
> _kirre_: laut DUDEN  (ugs. für zutraulich, zahm; nervös, unsicher);
> 'jmdn.
> kirre machen'
> Offenbar scheidet sich hier gerade im Moment der deutsche Sprachgebrauch:
> ich selbst kenne dieses Wort aus der Jägersprache nur als 'ankirren' =
> 'anfüttern, anlocken von Wild', was ja wohl auch der ursprünglichen
> Bedeutung (gem. Herkunfts-DUDEN) ostmitteld. _kirre_ enstpr. mhd.
> _kürre_ ,
> mnd. _quer[r]e_, got. _quaìrrus_, aisl. _kvirr_  in der Bedeutung von
> 'sanftmütig, ruhig, still, freundlich' nahe kommt.
> Heute wird es jedoch zunehmend in der Formulierung (s.o.) _kirre machen_
> ='nervös, unsicher machen' benutzt- es wird also geradezu ins Gegenteil
> verkehrt.
> Ich halte es in dieser Bedeutung schlichtweg für falsch- nur: der
> allgemeine
> Sprachgebrauch, wie sinnverkehrend auch immer, ist vermutlich das
> stärkere
> Argument als die etymologische Schlüssigkeit?!
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüße
>
> Jonny
>
> ***
> (English summary)
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> today a word from High German I'm interested in (therefore I liked to
> write
> my posting in G).
>
> _kirre_ DUDEN explains as a colloquial expression for 'friendly,
> domesticated'; 'nervous, unsure'.
>
> The German language seems to divide at this point, just at this very
> moment.
> I myself only use it in the ancient sense _ankirren_, meaning 'to
> lure' in
> agreement with  the Etymological DUDEN: MiddleEastG _kirre_, MiddleHighG
> _kürre_, MiddleLowSaxon _quer[r]re_, OldIcelandic _kvirr_ - all of
> them in
> the meaning of 'friendly, domesticated, calm'.
> In our days it's increasingly used in the meaning of _kirre machen_,
> meaning
> (look above) 'to make someone nervous, unsure'.
>
> I guess this version to be wrong- but "vox populi" obviously has more
> weight
> than etymological logics?!
>
> With kind regards
>
> Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hi, Jonny!
>
>> But we have another word close to 'black' and its possible derivation:
>> LS(?): 'blaken/bloken' (DUDEN denotes it to be from Northern German
>> origin),
>> G: 'schwelen, rußen', E: 'to smoulder, to smoke'.
>
> Yep, that's related.
>
>> Because- still today (black) ink glasses are marked with
>> 'Schwarz/Black',
>> and pupils could have picked up this word and made it to become the
>> common
>> expression?
>
> I don't think so, because it's an old word.  But maybe English
> influences have reinforced its survival.
>
>> BTW: isn't it interesting, that there is another word sounding very
>> similar
>> just in the opposite meaning? LS: 'bleeken', G: 'bleichen', E: 'to
>> bleach',
>> as G: '_er_bleichen' in a transcendent meaning 'to become pale'.
>> And this on the other hand reminds me somehow of E: 'bleak' in the
>> special
>> meaning of G: '(trostlos, trübe,) düster'.
>
> Etymologies often mention this and usually stress that they are in no
> way related.
>
> Interestingly, even in Old English writings _blæc_ ~ _blac_ 'black'
> and _blác_ 'shining', 'white', 'pale', 'pallid' (related to words like
> "bleach" (<  blǽc(e)an), "blake" (obs.), "bloke (obs.), Old Saxon
> _blêc_, Low Saxon _bleyk_ <bleek> 'pale', Dutch _bleek_, Old German
> _bleih_, German _bleich_ 'pale', Old Norse _bleikr_) got confused at
> times.
>
> I wrote:
>
>> *_Blak_ seems to be the older word for 'black' (rather than 'dark'),
>> and it
>> appears to be related to Germanic *_blǽkkan-_ (*_bl{ae'}kkan-_) 'burnt',
>> 'scorched', cognate of Greek φλέγειν _flégein_ 'to burn', 'to scorch'.
>
> The other word goes back to Germanic *_blaiko-z-_ 'shining', 'white',
> 'pale', related to _blîkan_ 'to shine'; cf. Low Saxon _bleyken_
> (<bleken>) trans. 'to bleach' (cf. German _bleichen_), intrans. 'to
> shine' (with the frequentive derivative _bleykern_ (<blekern>) 'to
> glitter', 'to glimmer').
>
> Cheers!
> Reinhard/Ron

Ron and all

see
http://www.etymonline.com/

David Barrow

black
    O.E. blæc "black," from P.Gmc. *blak- (cf. O.N. blakkr "dark," Du.
blaken "to burn"), from PIE *bhleg- "burn, gleam" (cf. Gk. phlegein "to
burn, scorch," L. flagrare "to blaze, glow, burn"). Same root produced
O.E. blac "white, bright" (see bleach), the common notion being "lack of
hue." The main O.E. word for "black" was sweart. "In ME. it is often
doubtful whether blac, blak, blake, means 'black, dark,' or 'pale,
colourless, wan, livid.' "

bleach
    O.E. blæcan, from P.Gmc. *blaikos "white," from PIE *bhleg- "to
gleam," root of blanche, blank, bleak and probably black. The connection
seems to be "burning, blazing, shining, whiteness." That the same root
yielded words for "black" and "white" is probably because both are
colorless, and perhaps because both are associated with burning.

bleak
    c.1300, from O.N. bleikr "pale" (see bleach). Sense of "cheerless"
is c.1719 figurative extension. The same Gmc. root produced the O.E.
blac "pale," but this died out, probably from confusion with blæc
"black;" but bleikr persisted, with a sense of "bare" as well as "pale."

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