LL-L "History" 2005.10.07 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

07 October 2005 * Volume 07
=======================================================================

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2005.10.07 (05) [E]

I've always thought that the Frisians migrated to North Frisia many 
centuries later than the Saxons left for England, maybe 500 or more years 
between both events. So the vacuum left by the Saxons then was not filled 
up by Frisians. And remember that Old Saxon was a very "ingvaeonic" 
language itself, not less than Frisian, so words of this type in present 
day Saxon areas can be relicts of Old Saxon, or Frisian loans from much 
later. Old Saxon is not the direct ancestor of what is called Low Saxon 
nowadays, because it was Franconized so thoroughly that it lost almost all 
the ingvaeonic features. The population of North Frisia migrated much 
later from West and/or East Frisia, where they became direct neighbours
of the Jutish speaking population of Schleswig. That is why North Frisian 
has so many Danish loanwords. Later the Schleswigers gave up Jutish for 
Low Saxon.

Ingmar   

Jonny Meibohm schreev:
>about the migration of Saxons:
>
>Archaeologists in our region (Hadeln/Lower Elbe) found out, that some
>villages, specially near the shore, in the marshlands, had been given up
>totally, whilst others, situated deeper in the mainland, partly just were
>thinned by their population.
>
>Assumeably reasons *could* have been any climatical/hydrological changes.
>What we know is, that there are very old settlings in the marshlands 
without
>any 'Wurt'(artificial hill), called 'Maifeld'. Later the floods obviously
>got higher and enforced the inhabitants to build these 'Wurten', and, much
>later, dykes.
>
>This vacuum, left by the Saxons, partly was filled up by Frisians, 
spreading
>along the whole coast of the (Eastern) North Sea.
>
>But they must have come in peace, because they, for my opinion, needed
>logistical help from those people being left in the area, eg. timber and
>food for the first years.
>
>Under the influence of these daring Frisians I further guess, the Saxons
>step for step re-settled nearer the coasts. They saw and learned, how it
>could be managed to build 'Wurten' and houses there on the vast islands 
far
>offshore.
>
>Folks now ethnolocically got mixed up, but under a clear Saxon dominance
>(different only in Land Wursten, north of Bremerhaven, and North Frisland 
in
>the Husum areas). Their social organization and structures were very
>similar: both Frisians and Northern *coastal* Saxons were free men by 
birth
>and elected their leaders out of their own midst, mostly just on demand 
and
>not heritable.
>
>I guess this as a basical condition for all new settling-ambitions along 
the
>continental coasts: every hand was needed with all its force to make
>survival possible.
>
>It was very different on the mainlands, and this kept on for nearly a
>thousand years.
>
>As far as I'm able to recognize there are Frisian (Ingvaeonic?) words in 
the
>marshlands, especially regarding water-techniques, which you won't find 
just
>20 km away from the shore.
>
>Just- all of this is regarding the very special development in the coastal
>areas and doesn't say anything about the Eastern parts of Holstein. But
>anyway it could have caused a domino-effect...
>
>> Do we know anything concret about the duration of migration to 
Britain?  I
>> was under the impression that there was an initial mass migration wave
>> followed by a period of gradual migration.
>
>If you are really interested I could make some investigations, because 
there
>is an archeological institute in the village of Bederkesa, not far from
>Bremerhaven. They are very capable in this special topic. (I *will* do,
>because I'm curious, too ;-))

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================