LL-L "Etymology" 2005.09.04 (02) [E/LS]

Sun Sep 4 20:58:16 UTC 2005

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.09.03 (07) [E]

About "Ulenflucht":

Arund here, that hole in the gable (yes, we have several of those in our
house and barn, and a large owl came sweeping out of one of them last night
as we were sitting out on the terrace by candlelight) is called "Ulenfluh"
(I believe they use that same expression in the Lüneburger Heide, too). I
had always assumed that it was somehow related to the English word "flue".

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.09.03 (07) [E]

Moin, Reinhard,
(English below)

> I assume that the meaning "owl hole" of _Ulenflucht_ -- in place of
> _Ulenlock_ or _Ulengatt_ -- developed later, most probably due to
> misunderstanding.  Misunderstanding why?  And here thickens the plot of my
> hypothetsis:  misunderstanding because of faulty German translation due to
> the translator's insufficient understanding of Low Saxon (of which there
> are
> numerous examples in placename conversions).  Low Saxon _vlucht_
> (<Flucht>) -- which ought to be written _vlugd_ if we wanted to be
> etymologically consistent in connection with _vleygen_ 'to fly' seems to
> have been misinterpreted as meaning 'refuge' by (a) German speaker(s)..
Jo- dat hesst fooken!
Door fallt my glyks drey Byspeelen in:

man jyst 500 m van myn Huus hevvt wy eyn Oortsdeel 'Ulenkamp'. Op dennen
eyrsten Blick kunn man gloyven, dat weyr  G:'Eulenfeld', E: 'field of the
owls'.
Man- denkst dor 'n Stood oyver no, koomst dor achter, wat dat 'Oulenkamp'
heyten müss- G: 'Altes Feld', E: 'old field'.

Anner Biespeel: eyn Dörp in de Neycht van Stade anne Neddern Elv heyt
vandoog Himmelpforten. Voyr lange Tyden (ca. 800 Joorn) hett dat mool
'Eylsede' heyten- dor hevvt de Lyyd denn loter foors 'Eulsede' van mookt.
Man- de Oorsprong van dit Wourd is 'Oulsede' = G: 'Alte Siedlungsstätte', E:
'old place of settlement'.

Un denn: eyn Insel inne Elv heyt vandoog op G: 'Krautsand' (E: 'weed sand'),
op LS: 'Kruutsand'. Dat is heyl leygen Kroom: op oule Seykoorten uut dat 15.
Jh. steyt noch 'de kroote sand', wat anners nix heyt as G: 'der große Sand',
E: 'the big sand'. Normaal müss disse Insel denn jo woll op LS 'Groutsand'
heyten, un dat dey ouk Sinn mooken. Man- dat schall woll för jümmer sou
verkeyrt blieven.

> In Low Saxon, _vlucht_ (or _vlugd_) also
> means 'flight', nominal equivalent of _vleygen_ (<flegen>) 'to fly', and
> it
> can also mean 'flight' in the sense of 'row', 'line' or 'direction'.
> I assume that _vlugd_ [flUxt] 'flight' and _vleygen_ ["flEIg=N] 'to fly'
> are
> analogous with _togd_ [tOxt] ~ _tugd_ ("pulling" >) 'breeding' (cf. G
> _Zucht_) and _teyen_ 'to pull', 'to breed',...
Över LS _Flucht_ un _Tucht_: 'eyn Tucht Gooys flycht/trekkt in eyn Flucht'
(G: 'ein Schwarm Gänse fliegt in einer Linie', E: 'a flight of geese flies
in one line', Jägersprache: 'ein Flug/Schoof Gänse zieht in einer Flucht',
aber 'ein Volk Rebhühner stand vor mir auf'). Dor hesst jem al op eynen
Dutt.

> ...and with _sicht_ (~ _sigd_)
> 'sight', 'view' and _sey(g)en_ 'to see'.
Man- dor kann ick dy opp stynns ne recht folgen, dat mutt van heyl oule
Tyden avvkomen...
..............

(English summary)

> I assume that the meaning "owl hole" of _Ulenflucht_ -- in place of
> _Ulenlock_ or _Ulengatt_ -- developed later, most probably due to
> misunderstanding.  Misunderstanding why?  And here thickens the plot of my
> hypothetsis:  misunderstanding because of faulty German translation due to
> the translator's insufficient understanding of Low Saxon (of which there
> are
> numerous examples in placename conversions).  Low Saxon _vlucht_
> (<Flucht>) -- which ought to be written _vlugd_ if we wanted to be
> etymologically consistent in connection with _vleygen_ 'to fly' seems to
> have been misinterpreted as meaning 'refuge' by (a) German speaker(s)..
Yes- you often will find these things.
Let me show three examples:

500 mtrs. awyay from my house there is a place named 'Ulenkamp'. On the
first sight you could believe in any origin from G:'Eulenfeld', E: 'field of
the owls'.
But soon you will become aware that it means 'Oulenkamp', G: 'Altes Feld',
E: 'old field'.

Another example: near Stade at the Lower Elbe is a village named
'Himmelpforten' ('gate to heaven' because there had been a nunnery). Its old
name (ca. 800 years ago) was 'Eylsede', and people later shifted this to
'Eulsede' ('the place, where owls sat down'). But- the real origin is
'Oulsede' = G: 'Alte Siedlungsstätte', E: 'old place of settlement'.

And further: an island in the Elbe river today is G: 'Krautsand' (E: 'weed
sand'), in LS: 'Kruutsand'. That's a special weird thing: on old sea-maps
from the 15. century you find 'de kroote sand', meaning just G: 'der große
Sand', E: 'the big sand'. Consequently this island's LS-name should be
'Groutsand'- but you never can shift it back.

> In Low Saxon, _vlucht_ (or _vlugd_) also
> means 'flight', nominal equivalent of _vleygen_ (<flegen>) 'to fly', and
> it
> can also mean 'flight' in the sense of 'row', 'line' or 'direction'.
> I assume that _vlugd_ [flUxt] 'flight' and _vleygen_ ["flEIg=N] 'to fly'
> are
> analogous with _togd_ [tOxt] ~ _tugd_ ("pulling" >) 'breeding' (cf. G
> _Zucht_) and _teyen_ 'to pull', 'to breed',...
About LS _Zucht_ and _Tucht_: (LS:) 'eyn Tucht Gooys flycht/trekkt in eyn
Flucht' (G: 'ein Schwarm Gänse fliegt in einer Linie', E: 'a flight of geese
flies in one line', Jägersprache [a special sub-language of Standard German,
a little archaic, which you have to learn if wanting to become a hunter]:
'ein Flug/Schoof Gänse zieht in einer Flucht'['a flight/"school" of geese is
trekking in one line'], but 'ein Volk Rebhühner stand vor mir auf' ['a
breed/??covey?? of partridges flew up just in front of me']).

> ...and with _sicht_ (~ _sigd_)
> 'sight', 'view' and _sey(g)en_ 'to see'.
Here I can't follow you, must be any very old connection I don't see at the
moment...

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Gabriele:

> Arund here, that hole in the gable (yes, we have several of those in our
> house and barn, and a large owl came sweeping out of one of them last 
> night
> as we were sitting out on the terrace by candlelight) is called "Ulenfluh"
> (I believe they use that same expression in the Lüneburger Heide, too). I
> had always assumed that it was somehow related to the English word "flue".

That's an interesting clue, Gabriele!  I wonder if a mixture of words 
corresponding to 'flue' and 'flight' is at play here -- talking about 
dialects other than yours.

Here's my hypothesis: _ulen-vlu_ (<Ulenfluh>) could well be the older 
version of a word specifically denoting the gable hole, and, since a word 
equivalent to 'flue' seems not to have survived, the word could have well 
merged with the already existing _ulen-vlugd_ (<Ulenflucht>) for 'dusk' 
("(time of) owls' flight").

Note English "flue," which is of uncertain origin but may be related to the 
obsolete verb "flue" related to "flow" (OE):

<quote>
 [of unknown origin.
The exact primary sense is uncertain; assuming that it meant ‘channel, 
passage’, some have compared early mod.Du. vloegh flutings of a column 
(Kilian), and others would connect it with FLOW v. or FLUE v.1 It is 
possible that the primary reference may be to the _fluing_ (see FLUE v.2) of 
the sides of the chimney in houses of the 16th c. This view derives some 
support from sense 5.]
In early use = CHIMNEY; subsequently a smoke-duct in a chimney. Hence 
extended to denote a channel of various kinds for conveying heat, etc., esp. 
a hot-air passage in a wall; a pipe or tube for conveying heat to water in 
certain kinds of steam-boilers.
</quote>

I can't find any trace of Old Saxon and Old German words related to "flue."

Jonny,

Thanks for the examples of mistranslations.

You wrote (above):

> > ...and with _sicht_ (~ _sigd_)
> > 'sight', 'view' and _sey(g)en_ 'to see'.
> Man- dor kann ick dy opp stynns ne recht folgen, dat mutt van heyl oule
> Tyden avvkomen...

Klaar!

> > ...and with _sicht_ (~ _sigd_)
> > 'sight', 'view' and _sey(g)en_ 'to see'.
> Here I can't follow you, must be any very old connection I don't see at 
> the
> moment...

Of course!

English:
séon, síon > (to) see
sihð, siht > sight

Saxon:
sehan > sey(e)n (<seh(e)n>)
siht > sicht (sigd) (<Sicht>)

German:
sehan > sehen
siht > Sicht

The / h/ ~ /g/ is there in the preterite forms:

English:
saƺ, sagh, sah, sahh, seah > saw*

Saxon:
sehi > seyn (<seh>)
sahi(n), sawi(n) > seyg(en) (<sehg(en)>)*

(* _-w_ tends to be derived from fricativized _-g_.)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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