LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.09.11 (02) [D/E]

Sun Sep 11 16:03:12 UTC 2005

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.09.10 (02) [D/E]

Moi Roeliena

Ik ken "opbeuren" zelf nog wel in de betekenissen die ik gaf (optillen,
opheffen, oplichten), maar dan voornamelijk als kindertaal.
Dat wil zeggen, toen ik zelf een kind was gebruikte mijn moeder het in die
letterlijke zin. Maar, dan kan ook aan de Vlaamse taalachtergrond van mijn
moeder liggen, zo gebruikte zij ook altijd (Amerikanen moeten nu de ogen
en oren dicht houden) "afkuisen" in de zin van "afvegen met WC-papier" na
toiletbezoek. Is opbeuren wellicht Vlaamser dan Standaard-Nederlands?

Mijn lagere school- en middelbare schooltijd heb ik in Drenthe doorgebracht
en daar werd het geloof ik nooit gebruikt, noch in het Nedersaksisch, noch
in het Nederlands.

Btw, "beuren" in dat Rodens "Ik kan 't mie niet beuren" ("niet" zal
wel "NEIT" moeten zijn?) is denkelijk NL "gebeuren". Overigens betekent
het woord "beuren" in de Nederlandse spreektaal ook "geld ontvangen,
betaald krijgen".

Groeten
Ingmar

>Roelina van Zanten schreef:
>
>Hoewel de betekenis van opbeuren optillen,opheffen,oplichten is, wordt het
>op die manier weinig meer gebruikt in het dagelijkse Nederlandse
>spraakgebruik. Het wordt echter wel vaak meer figuurlijk gebruikt in de
>betekenis van " moed en vertrouwen inspreken" ; "Ik zal hem eens een
>bezoekje afleggen nu dat zijn vrouw is gestorven en ik hoop dat ik hem wat
>op kan beuren" of "Ja, zo'n lekker stuk Groninger koek, dat beurt me elke
>keer dat ik heimwee heb naar Nederland weer op." ( echt waar........)
>
>In't Drenths ( omgeving Roden in het Noordenveld), zegg'n wij ok "Ik kan't
>mie niet beuren", wat betekent " Ik kan het me niet veroorloven", maar ik
>weet niet waar dat woord vandaan komt.
>
>My two cents, pennies or whatever................

----------

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.09.10 (02) [D/E]

Moin Ron, hi everyone,

> > I need a word for en:set, de:Menge.
> >
> > I have found Sass:
> > "Satz (zusammenhängende Wörter) Satz
> > (sonstige zusammengehörige Teile) Sett
> >
> > But Neuber has "Satz, z.B. Satz Schüsseln, Gewichtssatz, Schriftsatz =>
> > Satt
>
> This vexing thing has been bothering me for a long time.  North Saxon
> dialects of German, at least, use the German loanword _Satz_ (pl. _Sätz_)
> at least in the sense of 'sentence'.  In moments of temptation to commit
> the crime of "engineering" (Ach, du liebe Güte!) I like to look accross 
> the
> border to our Saxon relatives of the Netherlandic persuation.  Even if 
> they
> borrow from Dutch, which they are wont to do, it's genealogically closer.
> In the grammatical sense, Dutch uses _zin_, and I believe so do the Low
> Saxon dialects of the Netherlands.  This would be _sin_ (<Sinn>) in North
> Saxon of Germany, which already has the meaning 'sense', 'mind', 
> 'meaning'.
> I would find it confusing if it were used for 'sentence' as well.  I would
> prefer to use the same word as that for 'set' (i.e., "set of words and
> phrases"), as in German.
Well, I was not talking about de:Satz in the sense of en:sentence. Therefore
the Dutch "zin" (de:Sinn) does not work here.
>
> I would not use _sat_ (<Satt>), since its modern meaning is very 
> restricted
> in most dialects, as far as I know ('shallow clay bow' in most dialects).
> _Set_ (<Sett>) seems a bit wider, meaning also 'while' in the northwest,
> thus a "span of time" or "set of moments."  But if Neuber has _sat_
> (<Satt>) in the sense of "set" ...?  Hmmm ... anyone's guess is as good as
> mine.
de:Menge really *is* difficult. After digging around in the dictionaries I
found
nds:Schoof
which can mean
1) Strohgarbe
2) Haufen, Menge, Schar (besonders von Tieren)

So my question is: could "Schoof" be used for the mathematical term of
set/Menge? How would it sound to say
* Schoofkunn for "Mengenlehre"
* "Dat Element a is Deel vun de Schoof A, wenn ..."
* de Tall 2 höört to de Schoof vun de helen Tallen, man de 1.5 is keen Deel
vun/höört nich to de Schoof vun de helen Tallen
* de leddige Schoof (lehre Menge)
*"Wenn alle Elementen (Delen?) vun en Schoof A auch Deel vun de Schoof B 
sünd,
dann warrt de Schoof B ok "Deelschoof" vun de Schoof A nöömt".

At least to me this sounds better than trying the same sentences with 
"Sett",
"Satt" or Barg/Hümpel (Hümpelkunn really makes me laugh) or Bult.

Mengenlehre was invented in 1877 by Georg Cantor
(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengenlehre), so did indeed almost 130 years
pass and nobody needed than word in Low Saxon? What a tragedy!! Set theory
really is fun. And you need it almost every day for your favorite
mathematical proofs.

I really need your feedback. Any choice (good or bad) has a moderate to high
probability to stay for a long time.

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi again, Heiko!

As for _Menge_, maybe you can use _Antall_, _Tall_, _Summ_ and _Bedrag_ in 
some contexts.

Dutch has the convenient word _hoeveelheid_ ("howmuchness") for it, which 
would be *_Woväälheit_ (*_Woveelheit_) as a calque.

I suppose you might get away with _Schoof_ ....

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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