LL-L "Language acquisition" 2005.09.20 (02) [E/S]

Tue Sep 20 15:55:50 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language acquisition" [E/S]

>
> From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language acquisition" 2005.09.14 (01) [E]
>
> You have missed my point.
>
> The steps were retrieval steps for a neural network - which is subliminal
> i.e. I am not suggesting that people use the steps by rote.

This isn't how neural nets work. Consider learning to shoot hoops at 
basketball. You throw the ball at varying distances and you vary your speed 
and direction of throw. With enough practice you get the parabolic arc right 
and the ball mostly goes through the hoop. Even at the same distance you 
learn to throw in different arcs and still put the ball in the hoop. This 
doesn't mean that you're using Newton's equations of motion or even the 
quadratic equations for parabolae, even subliminally.

Similarly through long practice a child, adult or neural net in a computer 
learns lots of phrases, some of which get better results than others. 
He/she/it learns to vary the phrases according to certain patterns that get 
acceptable results. Neural nets are information feedback systems for 
targeting results, they don't work through our physical theories or 
grammatical theories, not even subliminally.

Researchers have demonstrated that once a child reaches about the age of 
seven, neural pathways for language learning no longer develop. At school I 
spoke Scots and occasional English (though my written English was good), I 
didn't start French until I was twelve. It could be said that by the time I 
left school I knew the grammar of French without being able to speak it - 
reading only involved "getting the gist". But in my adult life I had no 
trouble learning Welsh, Czech and eventually French, once I decided I could 
face that nightmare again. Only it wasn't a nightmare out of school!

I've noticed bilinguals seem to have a rather snobbish attitude towards 
monolinguals but it's really the stage you reach in neural development in 
any language before it's too late that determines your potential language 
competency. Bilinguals can just as easily be linguistically incapable - ie 
they never reached a sufficiently advanced stage in either language before 
it was too late. On the other hand, I don't see any evidence of English 
monolinguals being unable to learn other languages. Certainly they may have 
to learn grammatical terms and concepts before they can start making 
progress, but this is only if they're unfortunate enough to land themselves 
with a teacher who insists on teaching this way.

> From: Isaac M. Davis <isaacmacdonalddavis at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language acquisition" 2005.09.14 (01) [E]
>
> Weel-pat. Whan A leart French weel, that's hoo A did it; A haed no 
> patience
> for gender, an whan it wisnae obvious, A thocht o an ensaumple: e.g. _du_
> lait, sae 'lait' is masculine. Tae begin wi, A didna hae the 'gender
> confusion' sae bad as maist Anglophones; A notice clues tae gender, an
> there's a heap, maistly wi anes that cam fae Laitin nouns o the first an
> seicont declension. Oniewey, whan A didna knaw the gender, A didna wirrie
> aboot it, an A keepit ma ears open for ensaumples in the speech o native
> speakers. Whan a haurd an ensaumple, A wid mynd it like ye say, "le chat",
> "du vin", etc. An neist time, A haed an ensaumple for that ane.

Ay, that's hou it wis wi me lairnin French _efter_ the schuil. Syne whan it 
cam tae the Welsh I coud ignore gender even mair wi never hivin haed tae 
lairn it at the schuil! An need I say'd, wi a langage like Czech, the'r a 
muckle rowth o things that ye hae tae ignore gin ye'r wantin tae lairn the 
langage richt!

Yiblins the thing aboot grammar is it gies a lairner some shortcuts for tae 
speed up langage lairnin, but I dout lairnin this wey disna gie ye naitral 
uise o the langage - ye end up spaekin "like a foreigner". It wis interestin 
in Welsh the wey some lairners telt theirsels they wadna bather lairnin the 
mutations. Tae me this wis a orra kin o thing tae say - shuirly the 
mutations'll come naitral, juist like the rest o the langage?

> Well-put. When I learnt French well, that's how I did it; I had no 
> patience
> for gender, and when it wasn't obvious, I thought of an example: e.g. _du_
> lait, so 'lait' is masculine. To begin with, I didn't have the 'gender
> confusion' as badly as most Anglophones; I notice clues to gender, and
> there's lots, mostly with ones that come from Latin nouns of the first and
> second declension. Anyway, when I didn't know the gender, I didn't worry
> about it, and I kept my ears open for examples in the speech of native
> speakers. When I heard an example, I would remember it like you say, "le
> chat", "du vin", etc. And next time, I had an example for that one.

Yes, that was my experience of learning French, _after_ school. Then in 
Welsh I was able to ignore gender even more, since I'd never had to learn it 
at school! And of course, in a language like Czech, there's a lot more 
that's important to ignore if you want to be able to speak the language 
properly!

Grammar perhaps gives a learner shortcuts which speed up the 
language-learning process, but I don't think learning this way will develop 
natural use of the language - you end up speaking it "like a foreigner". In 
Welsh some learners would decide not to learn the mutations, which I found 
peculiar - surely the mutations will come to you naturally, just like the 
rest of the language does?

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language acquisition

Sandy (above):

> Grammar perhaps gives a learner shortcuts which speed up the 
> language-learning
> process, but I don't think learning this way will develop natural use of 
> the language
> - you end up speaking it "like a foreigner". In Welsh some learners would 
> decide
> not to learn the mutations, which I found peculiar - surely the mutations 
> will come
> to you naturally, just like the rest of the language does?

While I am sure it's unrealistic to give adult learners the hope that 
they'll learn to speak a foreign language "like a native," I would never 
allow them to get away with shortcuts of that sort.  Those things would 
eventually bite them in the behind big-time.  *All* aspects of a given 
language must begin to be acquired right from the start, and this way 
they'll all eventually become "natural" processes, as you said, Sandy.

I know foreign learners that totally ignore Chinese tones, some of them even 
speaking fluently without them.  The usual excuse is that tones are a pain 
in the neck to learn and that you can always explain what you mean in case 
of ambiguity and misunderstanding.  (This would apply to all tonal 
languages.)  Yes, learning to orally and aurally distinguish phonemic tones 
is pretty hard for most speakers of non-tonal languages, but really only for 
the first few weeks.  Our teachers insisted that we knew the tone(s) of each 
and every newly introduced word, and we were tested on this once a week, 
actually everyday as a part of new vocabulary reviews.  After about one year 
it had become pretty easy, and living among Chinese speakers most of us 
didn't even need to think about it anymore.  Most of the time we no longer 
needed to be told what tones came with the new words we learned as advanced 
students in that environment.  We picked them up as a part of packages, just 
by listening.  There are now many Mandarin words whose tones I cannot tell 
off-hand, theoretically.  I must say the word to myself to figure it out 
(saying all possible tones until I hit the one that sounds right), and this 
is what native speakers do.  So, consistency and persistence in learning 
will eventually pay off big time.

This is why I would never recommend textbooks that do not cover such 
aspects, such as some for Scandinavian and South Slavonic languages, or 
Russian or Ukrainian textbooks that do not indicate primary stress (which is 
phonemic, i.e., unpredictable, in these languages).  Similarly, the _Teach 
Yourself Danish_ textbook does not indicate the _stød_ (a glottal 
interuption as a remnant of an old tone), and the introduction says you 
should listen to the cassettes or have Danish friends teach you.  Sorry --  
that won't cut the mustard.  Of course all these predicaments go back to 
inadequacies in the official orthographies -- but that's a different matter.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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