LL-L "Language politics" 2005.09.28 (02) [E]
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Wed Sep 28 14:54:12 UTC 2005
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.09.27 (05) [E]
Ron wrote:
"...question what constitutes a dialect and what a languages, the consensus
these days is that
a very important criterion is what the speakers themselves think"
Don´t want to add to this dispute, only: If this principle would be applied
here in Occitània,
every village would have its own language, something the Pan-Occitanists
fighting a hopeless
battle against. The only real hope is that such controversies will in most
places as in
Occitània be without combattants quite soon because the languages will cease
to be spoken...
Greetings, Mike Wintzer
----------
From: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Ethnicity" 2005.09.27 (05) [E]
Not to be too argumentative but....
From: Philip Ernest Barber
Subject: LL-L "Ethnicity" 2005.09.24 (09) [E]
The people are Rusyns. They are from both sides of the Carpathians, mostly
south. They speak a Western Ukrainian dialect. In Europe most are
now(after a Soviet annexation from Czechoslovakia in 1945) in the
Transcarpathian oblast of Ukraine.
The vast majority of linguists that insist on Rusyn, or Carpatho-Rusyn are
of Ukrainian nationality. Other linguists such as Popp and Gribble (in a
revision of his work on the Slavic languages Gribble calls the Carpathian
Rusyn dialects the bridge between Eastern Slavic and Southen Slavic and have
more retained features with Russian than Ukrainian) have pointed out the
differences between, and have stated on the uniqueness of the language,
especially on retention of archaic tenses, retention of the separate "v" vs
the "w" sound found in Ukrainian. For example, Lemkivshchina vs
Lemkiewshina, and word order. There is also the lack of the pronoun
subject(it is understood who you are talking about) the absence of the
pronoun subject, including those instances when the verbal predicate is in
the past tense: Robyl jem tam calŷj den’ (Ukrainian: Ja tam pracjuvav cilyj
den’). Among other common syntactical features is ! the expression of
possession by means of conjugated forms of the verb maty; Mam korovu; Mam
dobru ženu (Ukrainian: U mene korova; U mene dobra žinka), as well as the
use of constructions such as Bolyt’ n’a holova; Fkral mu kon’a (litarary
Ukrainian: U mene bolyt’ holovOne of the most typical syntactical properties
of Carpatho-Rusyn dialects is the absence of the pronoun subject, including
those instances when the verbal predicate is in the past tense: Robyl jem
tam calŷj den’ (Ukrainian: Ja tam pracjuvav cilyj den’). Among other common
syntactical features is the expression of possession by means of conjugated
forms of the verb maty; Mam korovu; Mam dobru ženu (Ukrainian: U mene
korova; U mene dobra žinka), as well as the use of constructions such as
Bolyt’ n’a holova; Fkral mu kon’a (litarary Ukrainian: U mene bolyt’ holova;
Vin u n’oho vkrav kon’a).
a; Vin u n’oho vkrav kon’a). From the World Academy of Rusyn Culture.
This same argument brings to mind the ones that concerned if Ukrainian was
but a dialect of Russian, or a language in it's own right. Standard
Ukrainian was based on the central dialect of Podila-If I remember
correctly. In order to stress the uniqueness of Ukrainian, Polish and even
Turkish substitutes for common East Slavic words were used by the framers of
the standard language in order to distance it from Russian .
Those Rusyns that have adopted the Ukrainian orientation in the
Transcarpatian Oblast are Bojko and Hutsul Rusyns. The problem with saying
that most are in this area do not account for Lemkos, Sharishani, Sotaki,
and Dolinai Rusyns who are found in the northeast of Slovakia, along with
those borders of Poland, Ukraine, and Hungary, not found in the
Transcarpathian Oblast. Out of the Rusyns that went to live in the New World
the vast majority were these Rusyns and not the Bojko or Hutsul. It is
interesting to note here that in the last census the Ukrainian govt. would
not allow Rusyn to be included in the census. There was a referendum by the
people of the oblast to be an autonomous region, but was of course refused
by the U. government.
Those in America came mainly to the
Pennsylvania coal and steel towns beginning in the 1880's and up to WW I.
See above.
Many are Ruthenian-rite Catholics indeed, but at least as many are members
of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church, which seceded from the Ruthenian
group and entered into communion with Orthodoxy under the Ecumenical
Patriarch of Constantinople so that they could return to the religion of
their forefathers and retain a married priesthood.
Based upon issues of celibacy for the clergy and how the local parish
government was set up, yes, but it should be mentioned here that celibacy
for the Rusyn clergy was insisted (by a jealous Irish clergy) only for
those clergy that were in the States and not elsewhere. As for returning to
the religion of their forefathers which century? The Union of Uzhorod 350th
anniversary was celebrated not too long ago, along with those of Brest and
the minor unions of Prijashev and Mukachevo. The creation of this Church was
in response to the overwhelming prejudice of the Roman Catholic clergy and
the attempts of the Papal legate to placate that clergy. The bulk of the
religious expressions and teachings are the same between the two Rusyn
Churches.
Members of the Carpatho-Russian Greek Catholic Orthodox Church are amongst
the strongest supporters of the Rusyn identity. My family is of this church.
Many others joined what
was the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of North America and is now
known as the Orthodox Church in America.
Sadly all too true, there was a saying that scratch a Russian and
underneath you would find a Rusyn. At one time before the big waves of
Russians in the final decades of the twentieth century, overwhelmingly the
membership of those churches that identified themselves as the Russian
Orthodox Church of America and now the O.C.A. were in fact Rusyns and not
Russians. However even from this church there is a revival of Rusyn
consciousness.
The problem with such statements such as these and from what sources only
reflect as Ron so well put the official line.
----------
From: R. F. Hahn
Subject: Ethnicity
Hi, Philip! Great to hear from you again.
Even if it can be argued, on linguistic grounds, that Rusyn is a West
Ukrainian dialect group, Rusyns themselves overwhelmingly do not share
this
view and have always refused to be classified as Ukrainians. Their
struggle
continues in Ukraine and Poland where they are still considered
Ukrainians,
but in Slovakia they now have official recognition as a separate ethnicity
and of Rusyn as a language in its own right, in conformance with the
wishes
of Rusyns everywhere, including large Rusyn communities in the Americas
(besides smaller ones in Australia) that have always considered themselves
separate from, though related to, Ukrainians. Their language has its own
Cyrillic-ba! sed orthography, unique despite using Ukrainian devices.
Also unique in that Rusyn makes use of letters from both the Russian and
Ukrainian versions of Cyrillic.
Belarusan, Kashubian, German and Ukrainian are recognized as regional
languages of Poland, and some regional services are offered in them, but
only Polish has national currency. There *is* a Ukrainian minority. Lemko
Rusyns and their language have been lumped in with it, much to the chagrin
of the Lemkos and other Rusyns everywhere.
Very true, however there have been been improvements in regards to the
official Polish stand, and there have been recent elections and appointments
to a minority congress with in the Polish government. From different Lemko
communities that I write tom there has been in fact recognition from the
Polish govt. that Lemko is a distinct ethnicity and language.
Of course, this threatens to take us back to the old, tired question of
what
is a dialect and what is a language. These days, the consensus is that if
the speaker community considers its varieties as a language and acts
accordingly, then there ought to be general and official language
recognition.
Getting back to the Lowlands, I wonder if within the German minority of
Poland there are still some Low Saxon speakers. Does anyone know?
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
same here,
Larry
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