LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.04.08 (02) [E/LS]

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 08 April 2006 * Volume 02
=======================================================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.04.07 (04) [D/E/German]


>From Paul Finlow-Bates

Re the language speculations of Ron and Karl-Heinz:

"... I think if the Dutch rulers had a certain concern on
North-Western Germany in these centuries, North Rhine-Westphalia, Low
Saxony, Bremen, Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein would/could be Dutch today
and even further parts of Germany,..." (Karl-Heinz)
.....
"It's always interesting, albeit perhaps fruitless, to go down the "what-if"
lane, isn't it?" (Ron)

On this them, I've often thought about the possible scenario of stronger 
Netherlands/English ties, given the importance of contact in the Middle 
Ages. William Caxton, who introduced printing into England, spoke 
"Netherlands" fluently (when he refers to "Dutch", he means Deutsch - High 
German).  Flemish wool merchants and Dutch seamen were almost a fixture 
here.

If the family trees of English and Dutch royal families had been a bit more 
intertwined, an England-Holland union might have happened instead of, or 
perhaps as well as, the England-Scotland one.

What effect, if any, that might have had on any of the languages involved, 
is obviously unknown.

Paul

----------

From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.04.06 (05) [D]

Moin Ron!

> This is pretty much also what I think.  It's great to see that someone 
> else
> thinks about it and does this sort of "what-if" speculating.

Yes I think no German historian has written that way about it. The 
mainstream German version is: The Netherlands have gradually separated 
linguistically and culturally since the 16th century, but actually it was 
the other way round: Northern Germany separated from the Netherlands because 
the rulers in the Netherlands never took an interest in neighbouring 
Germany. And Dutch linguistics saw it that way a long time, as Johan Winkler 
in his "Algemeen Nederduitsch en Friesch Dialecticon (2 delen), 1873", as he 
applied the parable of the prodigal son to "het spraakgebied der 
nederduitsche taal" from south of Duinkerk across Northern France, Belgium, 
the Netherlands and Northern German till the former Königsberg or 
Koningsbergen as he named it. And even further to the Plautdietsch in 
Russia. And even today in a way the Northern Germans are seen as the 
"verlorenen" sons of the "Nederlands taal", since the source is on the 
homepage of the dbnl-stichting in Leiden 
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/wink007alge00/

> Seen from a Dutch angle, the Netherlands may be seen as having been asleep 
> at the job,
> or, as you said, they were too obsessed with overseas riches to cover 
> their
> behinds.
> What is now Northern Germany was ready for the taking, considering
> also the linguistic and cultural continuum that at that time would have 
> made
> it pretty easy to bring in the _Oosterschen_.

The Netherlands were at the height of their worldwide influence and prestige 
then, pretty urban, cosmopolitan etc. and obviously regarded their 
neighbours in the east as strange people in the woods and mountains, as "die 
Pampa" as we would say in German. Some years ago I went by car from The 
Hague to Cologne and when I came to the point on the highway where you have 
to bend off towards Germany I could only find "Oberhausen", as the only hint 
to indicate Germany. Maybe I overlooked another sign or it was "Oberhausen 
(D)" (town in Germany, literally translated: "upper houses") or something 
like that, but I thought: this is typical, they see the Germans as 
Neighbours, "die da irgendwo flussaufwärts dort oben hausen".

> What may have played a role, though, is that until about that time 
> competition between Dutch and
> Hanseatic merchants had been fierce.  The Dutch may not have been totally
> aware that the Hanseatic League was dead or dying, and for that reason 
> they
> may have been reluctant to risk a confrontation in the east, at least
> farther east than Emsland, Westphalia and the Ruhr Region.

Do you think the Hansa was that powerful then? Maybe at the beginning of 
this development. But politically North and Central Germany became more and 
more marginal with all these "Kleinstaaten" in the virtually non-existent 
Holy Roman Empire and were ready to be overtaken by the Prussians in the 
19th century. But when I compare Brandenburg-Prussia with the Netherlands, 
the Prussians were a pretty late power, the Dutch were at least 100 years 
ahead and could have easily anticipate the Prussians. A nearly absolute 
vacuum of political power in North Western Germany made it possible that 
Prussians could extend their territory till the Rhineland. Jokingly to our 
Dutch friends: Sorry jongens en dochters van Nederland en Belgie, een klein 
beetje interest voor Duitsland was niet slecht geweest, misschien heel 
Noord-Duitsland was nu je eigen. Maar geschiedenis wilde Nederland als een 
Colonialmacht en ik weet niet of jullie kunnen trots zijn op je coloniale 
tijd, ik denk vandag is "this heritage" meer een problem als een 
"Errungenschaft". (I tried, maybe you check it, Ron, and correct the 
heaviest mistakes.)

> It's always interesting, albeit perhaps fruitless, to go down the 
> "what-if"
> lane, isn't it?

I think that a partition of Germany (inkluding Benelux) into North and South 
would have prevented a lot of the "nationalen Verirrungen" Germany went 
through in the 19th and 20th century. Even today I think there's going 
something wrong in Germany, Willy Brand was not right with his: "Jetzt 
wächst zusammen, was zusammen gehört!" (Now we're growing together because 
we belong together). German unification is a mess so far, I hope it's 
getting better.

> For your contribution and because today is Friday you get a Hawaiian name:

> Uakokoakai-ma-Kualono
(< *Huatotohatai-ma-Tuarongo)
   a kai: of the shore [Küsten...]
   kualono: region near the mountain top [Gipfelgebiet]
   ma: on [auf]
   uakoko: earth-clinging rainbow [an der Erde haftender Regenbogen]

Oh I'm honoured, I like that very much, seems to be pretty adequate for me. 
Although I like the lowlands, the sea, the shore, I better stay in the 
"Binnenland". The prospect of future danger in coastal regions cause 
lowlands-people to leave their countries and come to us. Since Austria is in 
the European Comunity a lot of Dutch people came to stay here. As the Dutch 
economise there is also seemingly (a friend from Czech Republic told me) a 
certain interest of them to settle in the Czech Republic, especially in 
parts that border Germany and Austria.

Nochmals vielen Dank für den Hawaianischen Namen, ich sehe ihn als Titel. Du 
weißt ja, in Österreich sind die Leute titelsüchtig: Amtsräte, Hofräte, 
Kommerzialräte, Studienräte, Oberstudienräte, Revisionsräte, ... obwohl die 
Adelstitel und -prädikate abgeschafft wurden.

Hawidere (Habe die Ehre) Herr Präsident and big Kahuna

Karl-Heinz

PS.: I had a vision yesterday: Martin Luther appeared on my screen and 
pretended to be Wulfila. He told me that there really was this word "kattas" 
in Wulfilas Bible, but it was deleted because Wulfila didn't like the notion 
of the disciples to have been winos. I told him: "You can't be Vulfila 
because you heff zizz typical German accent." He smiled like a naughty 
little beggar and told me furthermore that he, Wulfila, Calvin, Zwingli etc. 
still today quarrel over the same religious matters than in the old times, 
but all of them have in common a passionate interest in lowlands-l. They 
watch the list from beyond and would be subscribers if they could. And that 
he (Luther) and Wulfila think that they deserved a Hawaiian name. But who do 
you think is the most passionate of them? Have a guess.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Moyen, luyd'!

Hey, Paul!

My _nomenclator sacerdotalis_ tells me that you haven't received your 
well-deserved _nomen honorarium_.   I shall remedy this forthwith, namely in 
a _postscriptum_ below.

> If the family trees of English and Dutch royal families had been a bit 
> more
> intertwined, an England-Holland union might have happened instead of,
> or perhaps as well as, the England-Scotland one.

Although there were many "Dutchmen" and "Flemings" in Britain, these were 
mostly of the relatively low artisan classes and soon came to be absorbed in 
the local populations, don't seem to have been considered symbols of ties 
with the Low Countries.  I wouldn't be one bit surprised if in this case, 
too, the Netherlands' preoccupation with commercial enterprises overrode 
everything else.  Specifically, Britain, like France, Spain and Portugal, 
and previously the Saxon-speaking areas in the east, were perceived as 
commercial and colonial competitors, and the thought of making at least 
Protestant-dominated Britain and _Oostland_ into bed-fellows and thus 
consolidate anti-"Papist" commercial and colonial power did not seem to have 
occurred to the enterprising _burghers_ of Amsterdam and Rotterdam.  One 
reason may well have been competition among Protestant factions (especially 
feelings about Anglicans whom more Puritan Protestants tended to consider 
pseudo-Catholics), and another reason may have been bad blood due to losing 
the Dutch-English power struggles in Australia and the Americas.

Karl-Heinz::

> I think that a partition of Germany (inkluding Benelux) into North and 
> South
> would have prevented a lot of the "nationalen Verirrungen" Germany went
> through in the 19th and 20th century.

This could very well be.  After all, remnants of a north-west division 
remain at least in people's minds and feelings, and that's a mutual thing.

As for your "dream," it makes me wonder if we have been infiltrated by the 
spirits of yesteryear, for a Gothic warrior named Oþmar has recently made 
his presence known, as our Arthur will attest.  Die Herren Luther, Calvin 
und Zwingli have expressed a measure of discomfort being among the 
strange-speaking people's of the water's edge, and Martin expressed regret 
about not finding his Pomeranian friend Grubenhagen here (who does not dare 
show his face due to shame over having made a mess of translating Marty's 
German bible translation into Saxon).  Ulf, however, does pretty well here, 
probably because all this internal feuding seems just like a bit of static 
to him.

I'm glad you like your name.  Of course it hits the nail on the head!  What 
did you expect?

Hawidere!
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:

PAUL FB:
NO'IĀLAHALAHA
(< *Nokiārafarafa)
   lālahalaha: swell of the surf
   no'i: seek(ing) knowledge

----------

From: Stellingwerfs Eigen <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

> The (Stellingwarver) text of the column 'Seksisme 2.mp3' van Johan
Veenstra:
>
> Now bin 'k aanders hielemaole niet zo bange uutvalen mar now he'k toch wel
> een klein betien een benauwd wekien aachter de rogge. Ik bin ommes de
> veurige weke zo driest west en geef jim een hiele riegel seksistische
> woorden veur alderhaande typen vrouwluden. En now weej' vanzels nooit hoe
as
> vrouwluden dat opvatten. Want ie hebben vandaege-de-dag ok al kursussen
> zelsverdediging veur vrouwluden. Dat ze kun je as man zo mar griepen en
> tegen de wereld warpen dat ik hebbe de oflopen weke eerst es goed om mi'j
> toe keken doe 'k de ofvalbak bi'j de diek zette of de buurvrouw mi'j niet
> argens stiekem mit de matteklopper opwaachtte. En ik hebbe op een stil
> ogenblikkien mit de kop diepe in de kraege gauw bosschoppen daon in de
> supermark want stel da'k in de drokte mit mien waegentien bi'j de kassa
> staon hadde en ik was herkend deur een lelke feministe die mi'j daor
tussen
> alle volk allemachtig uuthoeteld hadde en me mit een tippe rookwost een
> oplawiebes verkocht hadde. Ik moet d'r niet an daenken! Ik bin aanders
niks
> niet bange uutvalen mar lelke vrouwluden, kan 'k now ienkeer niet tegenop.
> Daor gao'k drekt veur deur de kni'jen. Mar aj'm al een betien kosselig
west
> hebben beste vrouwlu, ik zal 't now goedmaeken want ik hebbe ok een
fluttien
> mooie woorden veur alderhaande soorten kerels opscharreld. Luuster mar es.
> Jim kennen ze grif wel vrouwluden, roege kerels, ze kun et schuurtien nog
> niet iens fesoenlik opredden, raosbeiers bin et, roeghouwers en
roegbroeken,
> en de klongelkonten kennen jim ok wel. Ze kun nog gien spieker recht in 'n
> plaanke slaon. Wat bin d'r een halvewieze kerels, hèn? Wondere piesappels,
> sjolems en toppezetters. En koppig bi'jtieden! Grote kopstokken bin 't,
> onverschillige bokken, gofferds en meubels. Kikkeren jim al een betien op
> vrouwluden? Lekker hèn? Om de kerels now es bi'j de kop te hebben. Wat bin
> d'r trouwens ok een dikke kerels hèn? Van die dikke klofferds en
> dubbeldekkers, peinsen as een kalve koe. En grote kerels, van die
lompstarke
> klofferds en bofferds. En op Schotermark ziej' wel es van die lange
haenen,
> slierten en linters die boven iederiene uutstikken. En d'r bin luie
kerels.
> Praot me d'r niet van. Ze zitten mar te zitten, nooit een slag uutvoeren.
Ze
> zullen jim nooit es gerieven en gao es even stofzoegen en schottelwasken.
> Wat moej' aenlik mit zokke slampampers en luibuizen. En an wondere
sjappies
> hewwe al hielemaole niks vanzels. En now wodt d'r vaeke zegd dat
vrouwluden
> een protte kletsen en teuten, mar kerels kun d'r ok wat van heur! D'r bin
> grote lulmeiers en kletsmejoors. En dan bin d'r ok nog sloegerds. Ie
hebben
> as vrommes nog wel argens verlet van aovens op bedde en zi'j snorken al,
de
> sloegoren, doezerds en soezerds. Ie hebben d'r meer last as lust van. Now
is
> 't vanzels ok zo dat d'r starke ropperds en buffels binnen en hadde
vrotters
> en scheurwolven. D'r bin dus best wel goeie manluden mar toch ok
> allemachtige minnen, beroerlingen en tarpentienmiegers. En jim weten d'r
> vanzels alles van, manluden die altied mar aachter de vrouwluden anzitten
> dat bin glundige pikeurs. En now is 't mi'j zuver haost een betien te mal
> mar dit is 't wel zoe'n betien, wat de kerels anbelangt. Meer wee'k haost
> niet. Veur de vrouwluden ha'k wel twiekeer zovule, mooie kruderige
> seksistische benaemings. Hoe kan dat now? Now kan 't vanzels wezen dat
> manluden over et algemien toch aoriger as vrouwluden binnen en dat d'r
> daoromme minder malle woorden veur kerels in de tael kommen binnen. Et kan
> vanzels ok wezen dat de vrouwluden nettieser binnen as manluden en dat die
> minder malle woorden veur kerels bedocht hebben. En dat manluden,
> onfesoenlik en schunnig as ze binnen, wel een boel malle woorden veur
> vrouwluden bedocht hebben. Een branende kwessie! Zol d'r niet es een
> warkgroep van Friezen en Stellingwarvers kommen kunnen om dit te
onderzuken?
> Onderzuuk es van twie seksistische taelen die op zuuk gaon naor et
antwoord
> op de vraoge: Wie hebben al die malle woorden aenlik bedocht?
Stellingwarver
> of Friese manluden, of Stellingwarver of Friese vrouwluden?
>
> Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf (Fryslân),
> Piet Bult 

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